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XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22, 11 - FEB 20, 12

Moderators: Nell, Ergon, Michael, Moderators


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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Not just you
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Guermantes ... help me out ... I was about to copy Guede and it disappeared before my eyes. Any way to access cached?

The server should be contacted regarding the attack ... they have a backup ... they can preserve that until the content can be backup in a separate place.


Same here Jester. Up and down, up and down ... Hopefully this is temporary. I will let you all know when I see it come back up.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Thanks ... I've contacted Michael about options ... he must be too busy to check his mail. I wonder if this is what happened at the other site ... causing it to be down intermittently, and then more often. A head's up should have been sent out if that's what happened.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Someone asked upthread if personal information could be compromised if the site is hacked. My gut feeling is that the answer is yes. On a website like this, when people register they provide an email address. That information is stored in the members list accessible to the website moderator (webmaster). IP addresses are attached to that information. Any additional information provided by the user is also attached. If the site has been hacked such that someone could delete a folder, then I think they could also download any information on the server.

If my spelling becomes wonky, it's because I've had a few long days on the computer ... the little things (like missing letters) elude me right now.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Is the server removing information because of some request?

If files from my server were removed by my server, I wouldn't worry too much because I have the harddrive that was used to upload those files and I preserved a copy during the transfer. Michael, do you still have a copy of the files used in the recent split? That could probably be uploaded to an independent server as a backup until things can be sorted out.

About that fox ... I thought the cameras in Sollecito's face when he walked down the sidewalk were over the top. Leave him alone. He will suffer his own hell because of his notoriety and conduct. The fox, and the various men she has been seen with, are trying to obtain celebrity status. She's yesterday's news - another murderer set free ... in good company with OJ ad Anthony. She should be ignored for that reason alone. Her only claim to fame is having committed murder. Women that commit murder are interesting as a genre, but not as individuals. Individually, they are dull, vacant hosts for mimicking other people's emotions, incredibly selfish; have no empathy for others, and generally trample others (e.g.: singing at the top of the lungs during dinner, leaving distasteful vibrators lying around the shared WC) as a means of appearing superior.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Jester wrote:
Thanks ... I've contacted Michael about options ... he must be too busy to check his mail.


I think he is working on it right now. You might want to re-send him your PMs because, along with some posts, those PMs got lost!

Quote:
I wonder if this is what happened at the other site ... causing it to be down intermittently, and then more often. A head's up should have been sent out if that's what happened.


No, If I remember right, they have been having problems with some 'malicious' bot(s) (a Microsoft bot?)
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Malicious Bot? There were links popping up on the net more recently out of China with links to pictures of Knox that were malware. There have always been a few sites like that, but it seems like there was a recent influx.

Maybe the other site got hit with a lot of people looking to gloat, and the site was overwhelmed with the usual trolls and their friends.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

As a distraction, this is what I saw during dinner the other night.

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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Soooo we have lots of sightings but not a peep out of Amanda and Raffaele. Four years in prison for something they claim to have nothing to do with and they aren't talking about it? huh-)
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Offline indie


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Michael wrote:
PMF has been attacked. Areas of PMF were deleted. To save those areas, certain measures had to be taken. I've saved them. It has come at a price however. That price is that we've lost some recent posts and PM's. For any of you that have lost recent PM's or posts it's an arse, but it was a price that had to be paid. Trust me when I say the alternative would have been a lot worse.

ANYBODY that has PM'd someone in the last 72 hours, regard those PM's as not sent or received. Please send again. That includes PM's to myself.

And to those that have been messing around with us...this is NOT a security service issue, so stop! I WILL draw attention to you if you don't.

Michael


Sorry Michael. Makes me sad to see things some men do to one another. r-((
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Who really cares what type of peeps the murderers make. None of the peeps from OJ or Anthony were worth the money paid by media hounds and murdertainment freaks. Photos of people that got away with murder are not very interesting. They're typically nobodies that exist on the fringe ... they live, they die, nobody cares. Knox and Sollecito are no closer to their much sought after celebrity status today than they were when they first murdered Meredith. Knox/Mellas parents turning their very own daughter murderer into cash is really something unseen before - they have their PR Machine working overtime on profits.

It's like a fable about generousity where greediness is what makes things go boom.

The Judge has stated that they may be guilty, but the evidence did not support the charges. That often happens ... but we'll have to wait for the justifications; Judge's Summary, to know if it was valid. If they got away with murder and they are now being greedy, things will implode in their faces ... particulary because Knox has spent four years in jail being reformed, and she should not feel quite right making a spectacle of herself after getting away with murder (she will malfunction, the family will claim it's Knox being Amelie, she cannot sustain guilt and publicity or innocence and publicity ... it's a freak show). I rather hope that she completely cracks because her family is pushing so hard for photo sales to TMZ and other media sites. We know that those Knox photos on TMZ were paid for ... and it's fair to assume that the photos were posed and sold.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:12 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

While copying the Amanda Knox folder, I've re-discovered this photo of 'our'

fun-loving angel (note her open mouth, once again.)

Attachment:
Funloving Angel.jpg


The guy in that photo seems to be the same guy that was spotted walking with Knox to her local grocery/convenience store. Must be an old family friend...

Attachment:
Amanda Knox and an unidentified friend.jpg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

All those open mouths and men ... maybe an FOA Like Anne Bremner and her friend, the drunken judge (wrong letterhead), can keep track of ithe media investment in open mouths and such. Bremner could answer questions like: was the mouth open all the time or only when she was telling lies.

What are the father of the person that went to school with Knox going to do next? If that judge is not crusading on a drunken bent chasing the fox; using office stationary, and wanting to see Knox home - no matter what - then what are people like that doing? Gloating?

I sure hope that the Italian Courts respect the law and pursue justice in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

It's a bit of a question right now with the appeal court saying that Knox and Sollecito was all a mistake. One is forced to question alternatives and a couple have been presented lately: Kokomani and the blond in the fountain. That's at least more creative than the five lying prisoner circus ... but the five lying prisoners seemed to play a part in the doubt regarding the verdict.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Knox and her big mouth ... too bad her grandmother didn't include Patrick in the divviyng up of the money... guess she was only thinking about what she could get away with. Hopefully Knox will snap out of her family's money mongering long enough to remember the difference between who is owed money and who donated money



Speaking of people owing money ... is the retired bruce fisher FBI guy still trying to cash in on Knox ... hanging around her house; jumping in the car with Mellas? Surely he's not hanging around Knox for fun ... what's he expecting to get out of it?

Speaking of money, is Knox planning on paying her debt to Patrick?

Knox is a really twisted woman to accuse an innocent man of murder and to then leave him to rot in prison ... for two weeks. It takes a special kind of sick person to do that ... to leave someone to rot in prison knowing full well that that person is innocent.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

There's no doubt that this photo is staged and that the photographer - Mellas - is raking in the cash. Mellas is cashing in on Knox faster than she can say which way is up. If she is innocent, why doesn't she tell everyone to lay off, especially those close to her like the disgruntled FBI guy and her stepfather?



I can hardly wait to see Knox in her mother's incarnation of 100 pounds heavier ... it's in her blood ... to get big like an over-eating teacher.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

There are photos in the Daily Seig Heil and probably The Sun, of a smiling Knox out walking with some man (the guy who was talking about Jews in the Knox drunk video?)

I think it might be nicer to just not reproduce those images here,

1) we know she is over the moon to have gotten away with cold-blooded murder
2) we know she can smile
3) we know that the papers write it up as if it some kind of as miracle that a person let off of a murder can be smiling, but there's nothing special about it at all, it's what murderers do when they get off scot free.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Life won't be great for Amanda. Imagine being her. Many of us have experienced parents telling us we must do this or that and comply because they gave birth to us, raised us. Imagine what it must be for Amanda. She has parents that not only did those things, but bankrupted themselves and toured the world to give endless interviews...for 'her'. She may as well still be in prison. Her parents and 'friends' now own her and will forever. She'll never be free of that debt and will for always have to live for them, never herself or her own life.



I don't believe they spent lots, I think they made deals all along the way, after a certain point, after all, Garden Gnome SH Marriot would have taken care of that surely.

Imagine having to lie to all your family about such a serious thing, and then for forever.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Amanda should pay damages to Lumumba: lawyer’s appeal to Hillary Clinton
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Pacelli wrote
the U.S. Secretary of State

Google translation:

Perugia, October 13, 2011 - The lawyer Carlo Pacelli appeals to the Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to compensate Patrick Lumumba.

The girl in Seattle, on appeal by the prosecution acquitted of murdering Meredith Kercher, was sentenced to three years in prison for slandering the Congolese musician. Lumumba was in fact involved in the investigation based on what Knox told investigators about recognizing him, however, he was completely unrelated to the crime and then acquitted. The Appellate Court of Assizes of Perugia, confirming the sentence for slander, has determined that Knox compensate the musician, in a civil postponing the quantification of the damage. The American will also have to pay legal fees for more than 60 000 euros.

The lawyer Pacelli, recalling the appreciation expressed by the Secretary of State for the sentence of the second degree, has sent a letter to Clinton through the U.S. embassy in Italy. The satisfaction with the outcome of the process, according to the lawyer Pacelli, "must be duly followed by paying the actual damages suffered by Lumumba." I appeal to you because of your interest in Amanda Knox to compensate Patrick Lumumba.

La Nazione (Umbria)

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Zorba wrote
There is something wrong with all of that, where she actually owes Patrick all of that money but can be ALLOWED to hop on the FIRST plane and get out of it all, without any way of securing the justice that was done, for Patrick.

I too feel the cases in Italy take far too long, and, they should deal with one at a time.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Ava wrote:
There we go...next film offer:


Rhode Island Producer Chad A. Verdi Makes $1M Offer for Amanda Knox's Life Rights
Marketwire News Releases
Published: 10/14/11 08:00 AM EDT
http://www.worldmarketmedia.com/wmm-nan ... kraft.aspx


From the article:

"Rhode Island Producer Chad A. Verdi has made an official offer of One Million Dollars (U.S. $1,000,000) for Amanda Knox's life rights. If accepted, film to be produced by Mr. Verdi and Noah Kraft. The offer was made through Verdi Productions and is being handled by Hollywood entertainment attorney, Anita First.

Verdi and Kraft, who specialize in comeback stories, reached out to Ms. Knox last week, once they heard that she had been acquitted. "We hope the offer will be accepted and that filming can begin as early as January 2013," stated Mr. Verdi, who is the President and CEO of Verdi Productions. "My attorney has contacted Theodore Simon, Ms. Knox's U.S. counsel, and we are hoping to discuss the offer with Ms. Knox as soon as possible."

Mr. Verdi has already secured financing for the Untitled Knox Project, and if a deal is reached, Verdi plans on making a seven-figure pay-or-play offer to Natalie Portman to play Amanda."

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Zorba wrote:

Where Vultures Dare, is what they could call themselves, so shameless, because it's all on the back of Meredith, a murdered Meredith.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Ava wrote:
Yes, of course it is. But they would probably try to sell it as a 'story of hope'. A bit like Marriott said with regard to Amanda's prison notes/memoirs: 'Innocent' girl incarcerated abroad fighting for her freedom.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Zorba wrote:
Ah yes, the Garden Gnome, Mr Marriot, had this been World War Two he'd have had a top position within Hitler's killing machine.

Alas, he has to make do with being a Neo-fascist, in sunny Seattle.

In a way, he is comparable to a White Supremacist Chieftain, because the shocking thing about this is, Meredith's mother is not white, neither was Patrick, and the way racial stereotyping has been used in this case, where, this bunch of lay judge's may well have had their own prejudices, and these prejudices have been played upon, by the defence teams, by and with the help of the media, where Guede has been described, all the time, and now as a sort of fixed couple of phrases in a sentence: Drifter & small time drug dealer, yet, there has ever been any proof of him being either of these things, doesn't matter, the predominantly white newspaper industry, are eager to copy one another's ministry of misinformation output, glad to copy one another's mistakes, glad to copy one another's outright lying. So Sollecito, who actually had undergone dealing with Italian police in relation to drugs, never has that mentioned, hardly EVER, Guede who never was arrested for drug-related matters, sees himself being typecast as this black drug dealing loser.

In fact, he is, and this is according to those who know, eg, other Italians, a well-spoken man, he had an apartment at the time of the murder, he was no more a drifter than Knox or Sollecito, or any student changing rooms, changing part-time jobs, yet they typecast him as a MAN and the other two as wee little children.

Therefore, on top of losing her child, her youngest daughter, Arline Kercher has to endure another insult, to her intelligence, where as a non-white human being, she sees another non-white human being, used to ensure that the actual killer of her daughter, gets away with murder. In part of that process, yet another terrible injustice, yes, Mr Patrick Lumumba is also black and the fact that a black man was used, apart from Guede being used as the scapegoat when being solely a participant, is just absolutely beyond comprehension (for anyone with an able and good mind) it is near-on impossible to understand how it is. The white humans can yet again get away with stamping black people down into the ground like it were 1785 in the Southern United States of America.

I just do not see where the Knox family's black friends are.

Do you?

I do not see where Mr Moore's black friends are, does anyone know where the Knox party has hidden their black friends?
I don't know, I think they wouldn't give it a second glance if they saw strange fruit hanging from trees.
Does anyone see a lot of black employees over at PR firm Marriot?

They seem to be shameless racists.

Hope you read this Knox; you've set your family back 7x777 generations.

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Last edited by zorba on Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

(I'm reposting the film link because they have removed the article from the website I had linked to before)

Rhode Island Producer Chad A. Verdi Makes $1M Offer for Amanda Knox's Life Rights
Verdi Sets Sights on Natalie Portman to Play Amanda Knox and Plans for a 2013 Production
October 14, 2011 08:00 ET
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release ... 573171.htm


Last edited by Ava on Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Thank you for your hard work Michael :)
And guermantes :)
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Concert planned 'to keep Meredith Kercher's memory alive'
Surrey Today Saturday, October 15, 2011

http://www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/Conc ... story.html

"Musicians are planning a tribute concert in Coulsdon for murdered student Meredith Kercher.
Composer Trevor Jones said he "wanted to do something musical to help," after hearing Meredith's family's pleas to keep her memory alive."


Last edited by Ava on Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Ava wrote:
Concert planned 'to keep Meredith Kercher's memory alive'
Saturday, October 15, 2011

http://www.thisissurreytoday.co.uk/Conc ... story.html



That is truly lovely, thank heavens people are acting to help.

One thing I know through my years of experience is, that truth does have a way of getting itself out.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

I was just reading about the Joanna Yeates case and I see some similarities between the cases. VT, the murderer, suggested that forensic testing was faulty or a result of planted evidence (incompetence, corruption), he carried on as though nothing had happened right after the murder, he stayed close to the investigation (like Knox claiming she wanted to help police), he contacted police to implicate his landlord (Knox implicating her boss), he described the murderer as crazy/detached (Knox said she was afraid of Patrick), he was manipulative/dishonest, screams were heard that the defence wants to downplay and the murder was completely pointless/motiveless.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Berlusconi’s ‘Zombie government’


Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi as he arrives at the Chamber of Deputies, in Rome, on Oct. 14.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/10/15/berlusconis-%E2%80%98zombie-government%E2%80%99/

Floundering in a cloud of corruption and sleaze, surrounded by accusations of cocaine-fuelled sex scandals, perjury, perverting the course of justice, contacts with organized crime and tax evasion, Silvio Berlusconi nevertheless survived a vote of non-confidence in Italy’s parliament Friday.

Still, it was the narrowest of victories for the country’s longest-serving Prime Minister since the Second World War and may simply increase demands within and without his party for his resignation.

His centre-right coalition won the vote, 316-301, but has only a one-seat majority in the 630-seat parliament.

The former cruise ship entertainer, who built a US$20-billion business empire from scratch, then went on to dominate Italian public life for most of the past two decades, may now no longer have the political endurance required to rule its fractious parliament.

“The next crisis is just round the corner and the chances that this government will run its full term to 2013 are decreasing by the minute,” said James Walston, a political scientist at the American University of Rome.

Mr. Berlusconi’s ruling coalition is “a zombie government, not clinically dead but close to being brain-dead, lurching from one crisis to another, Golem-like and out of control,” he said.

“Worse, actually, because Berlusconi is very much alive to his own appetites and aversions.”

For the past two years, the Italian leader’s fall has been widely predicted and expected. But he has hung on through a combination of personal political cunning and his opponents’ incompetence.

“He is like a bull in the ring, weakened by the picadors and made angry by banderilleros, but there is still no matador,” Mr. Walston wrote in his Internet blog on Italian politics.

The Berlusconi coalition seemed on the brink of collapse earlier this year, over the latest allegations he had had sex with “Ruby the Heart Stealer,” a 17-year-old Moroccan pole dancer, and other women attending the wild “bunga-bunga” orgies he threw with prostitutes in his private and official residences.

The sense of pending doom was only enhanced by a flurry of criminal cases that has hauled the Italian leader into court on charges ranging from corruption and tax fraud to paying for sex with a minor.

He is scheduled to appear in a Milan court of tax evasion charges on Monday and will be back in court on Oct. 24, accused of paying David Mills, a British tax lawyer and the estranged husband of a former British Cabinet minister, a US$600,000 bribe in the late 1990s to give false testimony at two corporate trials.

But it is the growing sense of disaster in Italy — which is struggling with a stagnant economy, rampant youth unemployment, stalled tax and justice reforms and mounting fears over the public debt — that has really pushed Mr. Berlusconi to the wall.

In the last two years, Europe’s debt crisis has toppled governments in Ireland, Portugal and Slovakia, forced an election in Spain and thrown Greece’s government into turmoil.

In Italy, the world’s third most indebted country, with US$2.6-trillion in outstanding bonds, it has undermined Mr. Berlusconi’s political power and sown seeds of dissension within his coalition.

“There is a lot of disquiet with the way he is managing the government,” said Grant Amyot, a political scientist at Queen’s University in Kingston, Ont., who specializes in Italy.

“It’s not just the scandals and the trials, it’s the specifics of his policy, the way he is dealing with the budget deficit. A lot of people aren’t happy.”

The infighting ravaged the coalition last year, when Gianfranco Fini, his former deputy and a former Fascist, bolted from the party, withdrawing 85 members, including four Cabinet ministers, from the alliance.

Lately, Mr. Berlusconi has clashed repeatedly with Giulio Tremonti, his Finance Minister, over austerity measures needed to balance the budget.

Faced with open criticism and rebellion from some long-time members of his party, Mr. Berlusconi has become increasingly dependent on Umberto Bossi and his Northern League.

But Mr. Bossi has already gone on record suggesting Mr. Berlusconi’s government won’t complete its mandate, which expires in 2013.

“The Northern League still have some legislative goodies that they want [Mr. Berlusconi] to deliver in this parliament, before they unseat him,” Mr. Amyot said.

“They are looking for a constitutional reform that would create a senate for the regions and they want tax reform that will give more tax power to the regions, and they want a new electoral law that is more favourable to them.”

The precariousness of Mr. Berlusconi’s balancing act was evident this week — he was forced to seek the confidence vote after his government suffered a major embarrassment Tuesday by failing to pass a routine budget bill approving government accounts for 2010.

Dissidents within the coalition simply refused to show up for the budget debate, which Mr. Berlusconi lost by one vote.

“It just shows how fragile his majority has become,” Mr. Amyot said.

“Berlusconi seems to have nine lives, but it is mainly because he is the chief factor that holds the majority together. His coalition would fall apart without him.”

For one thing, the self-made billionaire, with an empire that spans Italy’s mass media, advertising, insurance, food and construction industries, personally finances most of his coalition’s election campaigns. Because of the way Italy’s election system is set up, members of parliament are not nominated by party members in ridings, but chosen by party headquarters.

“Many MPs are hand-picked by Berlusconi and they owe him their seats in a direct way,” Mr. Amyot said.

Coalition MPs have stuck with the veteran leader — he celebrated his 75th birthday last month — simply because they realize if an election is called, they are likely to be swept from power.

“Mr. Berlusconi has been the glue of the party because he has the money, partly because he controls the three big TV channels and, in the past, because his personality attracted a lot of votes,” Mr. Amyot said. “His own personal charisma has been tarnished in the last couple of years with all these scandals, but, in the past, his name and his personal biography have attracted a lot of people.”

The first time he ran for public office, a newspaper he didn’t own ran a headline identifying him as “The Great Seducer.”

“Most Italians think, ‘He looks like us. He’s one of us.’ And the ones who don’t are afraid he might be,” said Beppe Severgnini, the Italian author of Mamma Mia!: Berlusconi’s Italy Explained to Posterity and Friends Abroad.

“Mr B. adores his kids, talks about his mamma, knows his [soccer], makes money, loves new homes, hates rules, tells jokes, swears a bit, adores women, likes to party and is convivial to a fault,” he wrote.

“He has a long memory and a knack for tactical amnesia. He’s come a long way, alternating motorways and back roads. He’s unconventional, but knows the importance of conforming. He extols the [Roman Catholic] Church in the morning, the family in the afternoon, and brings girlfriends home in the evening.”

For his part, Mr. Berlusconi repeatedly protests his innocence, insisting he is the target of a politically motivated left-wing judiciary that is bent on driving him from power.

Il Giornale, a Milan newspaper owned by the Berlusconi family, recently denounced the Prime Minister’s legal problems as the “biggest espionage operation” run by a biased judiciary. He has had to face 26 trials in the past 18 years at a cost of more than US$600-million, it said.

In the past Mr. Berlusconi has managed to sidestep prosecution by introducing legislation to protect senior public officials from being charged while in office and by trying to shorten deadlines under Italy’s statute of limitations.

Two criminal convictions were overturned on appeal.

But the bribery case involving Mr. Mills could wind up before the end of the year and a conviction there would be a serious blow.

“It could be the blow that knocks him out, if he is actually convicted,” Mr. Amyot said.

The lawyer was convicted in 2009 of accepting the US$600,000 bribe and escaped having to serve a four-year prison sentence only when the statute of limitations kicked in.

National Post
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Offline Ava


Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:08 pm

Posts: 943

PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Let's Not Forget Amanda Knox's Lie
When first arrested, she blamed the death of her roommate on an innocent black man.

The Root, by: Phillip W.d. Martin | Posted: October 16, 2011 at 12:37 AM

http://www.theroot.com/views/lets-not-f ... -knoxs-lie
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Jester wrote:
I was just reading about the Joanna Yeates case and I see some similarities between the cases. VT, the murderer, suggested that forensic testing was faulty or a result of planted evidence (incompetence, corruption), he carried on as though nothing had happened right after the murder, he stayed close to the investigation (like Knox claiming she wanted to help police), he contacted police to implicate his landlord (Knox implicating her boss), he described the murderer as crazy/detached (Knox said she was afraid of Patrick), he was manipulative/dishonest, screams were heard that the defence wants to downplay and the murder was completely pointless/motiveless.



Exactly, the one difference being, he came from a family of proper intellectuals, and, more than that alone, from a family of what are obviously decent people, they support him and did from the start though are not nuts like Knox's lot, they are not prepared to actualyl behave as criminals themselves in order to undermine the case, to get him off, so you have described it perfectly, a great summary, the only difference is they were not cunning fiends willing to hire a PR firm, they are grounded Dutch people not crazies.
Their family member has gone wrong; they have not followed suit. Knox's lot and Sollecito's clan, they are a very different kettle of fish.


He is still trying to give it a twist thought, by admitting to manslaughter, he knew he had no chance of getting away scot free but by admitting manslaughter he hopes to get a couple of years, now in court he is looking very sorry, but is it faked, he being very clever, knowing he needs to show remorse and regret.

However, he went shopping for beer right after murdering her, with the car parked outside and Joanne's corpse in the trunk/boot.
They have evidence showing him having searched what the different sentences are for crimes, such as manslaughter or murder.

He is as calculated as Knox and Sollecito.

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Last edited by zorba on Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Jester wrote:
As a distraction, this is what I saw during dinner the other night.



Wonderful, wonderful, beautiful picture, now you really are making me jealous meany

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Meet the guy that hacked into the Occupy Wall Street protests:
http://cryptogon.com/?p=25500
"The Occupy Wall Street protests have been going on for a month. And it seems the FBI and NYPD have had help tracking protesters’ moves thanks to a conservative computer security expert who gained access to one of the group’s internal mailing lists, and then handed over information on the group’s plans to authorities and corporations targeted by protesters.

Since the Occupy Wall Street protest began on September 17, New York security consultant Thomas Ryan has been waging a campaign to infiltrate and discredit the movement. Ryan says he’s done contract work for the U.S. Army and he brags on his blog that he leads “a team called Black Cell, a team of the most-highly trained and capable physical, threat and cyber security professionals in the world.” But over the past few weeks, he and his computer security buddies have been spending time covertly attending Occupy Wall Street meetings, monitoring organizers’ social media accounts, and hanging out with protesters in Lower Manhattan.

As part of their intelligence-gathering operation, the group gained access to a listserv used by Occupy Wall Street organizers called September17discuss. On September17discuss, organizers hash out tactics and plan events, conduct post-mortems of media appearances, and trade the latest protest gossip. On Friday, Ryan leaked thousands of September17discuss emails to conservative blogger Andrew Breitbart, who is now using them to try to smear Occupy Wall Street as an anarchist conspiracy to disrupt global markets".
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Ava wrote:
Thank you for your hard work Michael :)
And guermantes :)



Warm thanks from me too Michael, I think you've been a very fair person, a gentle person, and a couple of other nice things that made me want to support your efforts, I feel relaxed here, and, I think it is partly to do with your calm personality, whatever happened, it's done, though I think you deserved better after giving so much, still, even though I know it would be silly to blame all people in Seattle, I just do not like the idea of a site being run for Meredith, in Knox's home town, none of this was about nation, all except for what Knox's family made of it, they made it look as if it was. In the end I think it just fits, that you are British and represent all of the things that Meredith was about too. I think it's right to have a British-based champion of Meredith's cause, with all people welcome, all those able to debate in a civil, adult fashion and fairly.

If people who you showed great kindness, with whom you interacted on a daily basis and did a lot of work for so that they could have their say, could so easily abandon you as if you had never existed, then obviously they were in fact entirely insincere, what remains is the best.

As John Lennon sang, you lived with straights who told you, you were king, jump when your mummy told you, anything, the only thing you did was, yesterday, and since you're gone you're just another day, how can you sleep; and with this, I think, Sollecito and Knox, how do you sleep?

So Sergeant Pepper took you, by surprise, you'd better see right through those mommy's eyes.
A pretty face may last a year or two, but pretty soon we're gonna see what, you can do
How do you Sleep Knox, how do you sleep Sollecito, how do you sleep Guede, how do you sleep Marriot, how do you sleep Mellas, how do you sleep sheep?
Feed my sheep!

People have been difficult, tedious, some then, but you were never quick to play the all-powerful cards (banning people immediately and visibly getting a kick from doing that, enjoying that power, like one of the members here remarked about having her post removed over on the ripped site when only gaving asked what happened, that's a power trip nothing more or less), instead being fair, in a reasonable way saying what was what, as best you could, and in fact, I don't remember you banning a whole lot of people, and there were some awful trolly types.
At a certain moment one must get rid of the poisonous, nasty ones, anyhow, just want you to know, that myself and the others posting here, obviously are pleased you've kept this going, and we all look forward to getting the truth out, as we have already done over the past few years, through each and every day..

As I'm sure you'd agree, it is not about quantity, it is quality, that's what counts!

We're not here because of boredom or for want of a hobby, we are not obsessed people, we as human beings want justice, the only thing that can lay Meredith's dear soul to rest and help Meredith's family is... justice!

None of it can ever be about personal trips, ego trips, people who like to show off and pontificate, if people do that, they are simply not helping.

This awful verdict has been a shock, however, no way are any of us going to be beaten down, Meredith was beaten down for having an own mind, but they could not force their wills on her either, that's why she died because they wanted to force their will and she would not accept that, we too will not be moved. By standing firmly with Meredith, in her manner, we make sure she lives on with her spirit through us.

The truth is coming out.

Two people have been let off of a murder and my firm belief is that they were and forever are, guilty.

All love to Meredith and her grieving family and loved ones, especially at what is of course a horrific time of year now for them, every year, with their sense of emptiness at every annual reminder of that wintery day back in 2007, each time October comes, each time autumn leaves are shed, so are their tears, ours too.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:42 pm   Post subject: WORD PATTERNS PSYCHOPATHS   

Psychopathic killers: Computerized Text Analysis Uncovers the Word Patterns of a Predator
http://followmehere.com/2011/10/15/psyc ... -predator/

"Strongly supporting the conception that psychopathy is defined by predatory, nonempathic, disconnected self-justification: ‘Psychopaths used more conjunctions like “because,” “since” or “so that,” implying that the crime “had to be done” to obtain a particular goal. They used twice as many words relating to physical needs, such as food, sex or money, while non-psychopaths used more words about social needs, including family, religion and spirituality. Unveiling their predatory nature in their own description, the psychopaths often included details of what they had to eat on the day of their crime". (via MedicalXpress)

ETA MUCH MUCH LATER: Or when it's me, me, me.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:56 am   Post subject: THE KNOX TONGUE AFFAIR   

Jester wrote:
Knox and her big mouth ...

Speaking of people....


Speaking of her mouth, with Chinese medicine her tongue tells us she definitely abuses alcohol and/or drugs. Kidney deficiency, swollen tongue, shiny, no coating, water retention around the tongue. It stays for a while until her body detoxifies, which may not be possible since she also appears to have digestive problems. This would be another indice of a learning disorder.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

http://londonersdiary.standard.co.uk/
13 October 2011 1:19 PM

* The Kercher family has beaten Foxy Knoxy to a book deal. John Kercher’s book about the life and death in Italy of his daughter Meredith has been sold to Hodder & Stoughton. Fenella Bates, who bought the project for H&S, says: "Here at Hodder we feel this is an important story that needs to be told. We are privileged that John Kercher has entrusted us with his book, in which he’ll talk for the first time about the case and celebrate Meredith’s life." Intriguingly, publishers were made to choose which book to bid for, Kercher’s story or Knox’s. They were not allowed to bid for both.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Administrator Note:

First of all, thank you to all those of you who have sent kind words and also offers of help. It's very kind of you all.

There is no need for anyone to be concerned about security. This is not a security issue. In the early stages it had some of the hallmarks of an attack, but that isn't the case. After working on it, it transpires that it's a data corruption and that caused elements of our database to be pointing to the wrong places, hence the disappearance of the gallery. Believe it or not, the gallery is actually there, it just isn't showing. The corruption has already been repaired once by our host's techies, but it keeps corrupting again. I don't know the reason for this. The loss of recent posts and PM's are as a result of our hosts and I attempting to restore the site (and with it, it was hoped, the gallery) from backups. Those backups were made before some of the more recent posts and PM's, hence their being lost, so it's nothing sinister...but it is annoying. All posts and PM's should be fine from this point onwards as we won't be trying to fix the issue using backups...we've tried that once and it doesn't work. I don't know what I'm going to do about the gallery, I'm not sure what options I have.

If anyone has joined PMF over the last 7 days, there's a likelihood your signing up has been wiped. Therefore, please rejoin.

Thanks everyone for standing by PMF and its staff and I apologise for any concern or inconvenience caused :(

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Hi Mike, thanks to you and PMF staff. I am glad to be able to support you by being here and contributing in whatever little way I can to this group. Btw, is the PM function working? Sent a couple to you and got a reply you'd sent previously on Sept. 13!
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Hi Ergon,

As I said, some recent PM's may have been deleted (PM's between Oct 6 and yesterday [Sunday]). But, they should be fine from this point.

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Is it my imagination or did Zorba post a summary of the Italian code in respect of manslaughter?

(Please don't feel you have to type it out again, Z.! I'll try to find something on my own when I get a moment.)

I thought I spotted it a few days ago but it seems to have vanished - perhaps something to do with the latest attack on the board.

Alas, good to see that Michael is back!

I may have missed a PM or 2 with the glitch - hope no one will hold a failure to reply against me!
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Michael, thanks again for all your work on the gallery. No need to recover lost posts as nothing of interest or importance happened last week. We're perfectly fine without seeing Knox's pictures in the Daily Mail, right Zorba? :)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Administrator Note:

We have our gallery back!!!

There is a price however. This afternoon, shortly after I posted my last Admin Note, we got hit by another data corruption event and this was a MAJOR one. This did not wipe only the gallery, but all the forums of posts too. That, I managed to get fixed. But...it was all too much for the poor gallery and it was not only the gallery database tables that got damaged, but all the gallery content. Fortunately, our hosts managed to track down a backup copy of our gallery directory and have installed that for us, so we now have our gallery back. The downside, is that the directory dates from March, so all pics added since March have been lost. However, 98% of our gallery content was added before March, so most of the gallery has been saved.

Later at some point, I'll attempt to explain what caused all this. But for now, I'll say I think the cause is fixed and the ship is stable. I'm going to have a rest now.

Thanks everyone!!! And also, my apologies to everyone.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
Is it my imagination or did Zorba post a summary of the Italian code in respect of manslaughter?

(Please don't feel you have to type it out again, Z.! I'll try to find something on my own when I get a moment.)

I thought I spotted it a few days ago but it seems to have vanished - perhaps something to do with the latest attack on the board.

Alas, good to see that Michael is back!

I may have missed a PM or 2 with the glitch - hope no one will hold a failure to reply against me!


musta got lost too then
this link contains all of the Italian codes, civil and penal and more.

You'll need to use google translate to make some sense of it, and it's surprising how much sense can be made of it using google translate
I'll give you the original version too, in Italian of kors.

This one is the translated version
http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... ot%3d36806


I am now going over to my secret agent accent, it's kind of Russian.
Here is ze address to ze linkchov in Italianотсюда for your perusal.
http://www.altalex.com
Eat this link after you have read it, signed: Agent Nereovchov

_________________
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Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Michael, thanks again for all your work on the gallery. No need to recover lost posts as nothing of interest or importance happened last week. We're perfectly fine without seeing Knox's pictures in the Daily Mail, right Zorba? :)


Ha haha Guermantes, what shall we say, In'sh Allah and all that stuff that's far from jazz

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

(( OT OT ))

For anyone needing to unwind, I very much recommend playing 'Clover Crunch', we have it in our arcade: arcade.php?mode=play&g=662 , for some reason it lets all the stress out.

Another excellent one, in the same way, (but highly addictive, so watch out), is 'Gold Strike' arcade.php?mode=play&g=299

They are both...'satisfying', in a strange way.

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

The Gallery is back up and working. Yay-) Hooray for Michael. :)

Attachment:
Hurrah!.jpg


I have become superstitious as a result of the recent glitch and will copy the entire gallery to an external hard drive for safe keeping.


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

That would be really good of you if you could G :)

_________________
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

I just want to say, for those wondering why there is so much fuss about the gallery. The gallery isn't simply a side place where photos are stored. Were it so, it would be valuable enough, but it's much more than that. It's where many photos in posts are hotlinked to...so, if the gallery is removed so are the photos in the posts and that destroys the context of all those posts. In addition, many of our reference posts are introduced or contain images hotlinked from the gallery and were those removed, it would greatly disable them, especially when the content of the images form the basis of the discussion in those reference threads. Finally, the gallery contains not only human imagery, but evidence...DNA readouts etc. It's quite crucial. FOAKers shouldn't rejoice over it being damaged either. It serves nobody when a library is burned, as that is an asset that exists for everyone. It's in everyones interests that the databases are retained. The gallery forms a major part of that database. It does contain things that are superfluous, but much of the other stuff is essential source data.

Michael (the librarian)

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"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." ~ Winston Churchill mike


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Warning to everyone! Be very careful of any ads running from Bing or Yahoo searches.

You MUST read this: http://www.thinq.co.uk/2011/10/17/bing- ... d-rootkit/

It appears that hackers are targeting Bing/Yahoo (which uses the Bing search engine) and cilicking on ads may expose you to malware.

But more seriously, Bing ignores "no follow" instructions, and aggressively tries to catalogue everything on a site.

http://www.google.ca/#pq=malicious+bing ... 15&bih=707

This is one users suggested solution but I don't know how well that works.
http://www.seomoz.org/learn-seo/robotstxt
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Ava wrote:
http://londonersdiary.standard.co.uk/
13 October 2011 1:19 PM

* The Kercher family has beaten Foxy Knoxy to a book deal. John Kercher’s book about the life and death in Italy of his daughter Meredith has been sold to Hodder & Stoughton. Fenella Bates, who bought the project for H&S, says: "Here at Hodder we feel this is an important story that needs to be told. We are privileged that John Kercher has entrusted us with his book, in which he’ll talk for the first time about the case and celebrate Meredith’s life." Intriguingly, publishers were made to choose which book to bid for, Kercher’s story or Knox’s. They were not allowed to bid for both.


Ava, thanks for the link! I know this has been posted elsewhere but thought it deserves a place here too:

Bookseller

So, it's good news that John Kercher and John Follain will soon share a publisher. John Follain publishes many of his books with Hodder&Stoughton:

John Follain books

His Death in Perugia should come out on the 25th.
Attachment:
Death in Perugia.jpg

Follain was the smartest among the journalists in that he waited till the appeal trial was over and added a chapter about the acquittal of AK and RS at the end of his book. Since Follain is an established author, he didn't need to hasten his book through the publishing process immediately after the first trial. I don’t understand, why so many first-time authors (Candice comes to mind) were in such a hurry to publish their half-baked insights that they didn’t bother to get all the facts together. Or maybe they simply wanted to ensure their books get noticed?

As a long-time Rome correspondent for London’s Sunday Times, with a specialization in crime reporting, Follain is certainly well qualified and well placed to write a book about a murder case in Italy.

Here is a review of his 2003 book “The City of Secrets:The Truth Behind the Murders at the Vatican", as a foretaste of what to expect -- style-wise -- from his new book (authors rarely change their writing style):

City Of Secrets

And here is John Follain in a Reuters video (skip the beginning, watch the end ;) )



P.S. The only thing to which I object is calling Meredith's murder "Italy's murder of the century". n-((


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Last edited by guermantes on Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Hampikian on Amanda Knox case: ‘I know what happened’

Oct. 17, 2011 4:56 p.m.

Hampikian headed his talk, “How science freed an innocent woman … and how bad science multiplied the victims of a terrible tragedy.”

The Spokesman-Review

Boise State Professor Uses Science to Exonerate Amanda Knox

Posted by Andrew Crisp on Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:26 PM

“Truth comes from science, and the story of how this crime was committed does not fit the evidence,” said Hampikian.

Boise Weekly
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Wow Guermantes do you see how theýve set the title there, so that in white it reads, The definitive account of the case from her murder to the acquittal and

I think that's nice that he kind of has Meredith up front there

her murder is the subject, Meredith, is the subject... and the victim

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Wow Guermantes do you see how theýve set the title there, so that in white it reads, The definitive account of the case from her murder to the acquittal and

I think that's nice that he kind of has Meredith up front there

her murder is the subject, Meredith, is the subject... and the victim


Yeah, that's nice for sure ... still, a picture of Knox is on the cover. Why?

A second edition, updated and with amendments, is planned for 2012 (publication date: 08 Nov 2012), where Meredith's face will be on the book jacket.

Attachment:
Death in Perugia - 2012.jpg


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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
zorba wrote:
Wow Guermantes do you see how theýve set the title there, so that in white it reads, The definitive account of the case from her murder to the acquittal and

I think that's nice that he kind of has Meredith up front there

her murder is the subject, Meredith, is the subject... and the victim


Yeah, that's nice for sure ... still, a picture of [b]Knox is on the cover. Why?[/b]

A second edition, updated and with amendments, is planned for 2012 (publication date: 08 Nov 2012), where Meredith's face will be on the book jacket.

Attachment:
Death in Perugia - 2012.jpg



Probably simply because it's a very recent picture of Amanda (news) and because she's crying (drama), and they hope to attract more attention and sell better with that cover. It's not John Follain's fault though.
I'm curious about his book too.
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Offline teabreak


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Hi

I'm new here and I'm currently reading through the original motivations report but I am having trouble getting my head round the window being broken from the inside in the staged break in as described by the court.

They claim that as they found no glass outside it follows that the window was broken from the inside with the exterior shutter still closed.

Surely from inside Romanelli's room even with the interior shutter and window casement fully open inwards and at 90 degrees to the exterior shutter, because of the proximity of the window glass to the closed louvered exterior shutters and the force of throw and the angle required to make the damage to the interior shutter. Unless we are going to presume that the momentum of the stone takes all the glass through the casement then this would still allow tiny glass fragments to end up outside or at least in the louvers of the shutter.

Does anyone know if there was any detailed searching or sifting made by forensics of the ground beneath the window?

The prosecution assume that there would have been great difficulty in opening the exterior shutter becaused it rubbed on the sill. However I still cannot see any reason for a staged break in to break the glass from the inside. It would not have been impossible for the shutter to have been opened from the outside so if you were staging it you would have pushed open the shutter from the inside and then thrown the stone from the outside where I presume you would of had to go anyway to find a stone to do the job.

Would anyone here have done it the way the prosecution describe?

Were there any latent prints taken from or other forensics made in Romanelli's room?

Regards

teabreak
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Teabreak, listen, not to be unfriendly, but to say I'm new here, why say that, everyone who posts here knows you are, and this introduction is a typical Troll introduction, a sort of polite intro, but it isn't polite, it's an insult to people's intelligence, as I mentioned, everyone knows you are new here.

I do not care about the window, there are many ways Sollecito, or maybe Knox, between them broke the window.

It was jolly good of Sollecito to immediately start explain in the case to the police and pretty much trying to do their job for them.
Very tidy murder(er).

If a rock had been thrown from outside there would have been glass too, outside, and contrary to your idea, it would not have been east at all to open the window from outside unless you walked on stilts and were with a visiting circus or you took a ladder. Take damned look at the height, I'd love to see you easily open the window. So big deal, Sollecito, did open the window, smashed the glass then pushed it back for some reason, some reason being he was not an experienced burglar and was too smug and big for his own boots, so he had no way of carrying out a perfect crime, well, it may seem perfect now both of them are getting away with murder up until now.

So now, hey come back and tell me more of the classic lines, like, well, that's not very friendly, I was only saying... bla bla bla!

Yeah sure, but I know now already where you want to go and I know for sure you are not genuine or sincere, if you were and you were so intelligent too, and truly into debating things without secretly being on Knox's side because in some way you know her or are some American patriot, from wee Seattle town, then you would not day hi I'm new here and then set off on a circular trip. The crime scene was definitely staged

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Wow, just saw this picture posted by stint7 on the other board. What a contrast to Knox's moments of crying, looking miserable and sad in the courtroom just an hour earlier. I hope stint7 will post more about it here!

stint7 wrote:
This picture of her supposedly sometime after leaving Capanne on her way to Seattle sure is a lot different from most of what else we have seen from Marriott's sources.

(Sweet dreams, Rocco.
Happy mountain camping and truffle hunting)

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:30 pm

Attachment:
amanda and rocco after verdict 2.jpg


This is a rare find! th-) stint.


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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Thanks Michael.

Apologies if this has been posted already. In the UK Channel 5 are broadcasting "Amanda Knox: The Untold Story" on Tuesday 25 October at 20:00. I do not have any more details than this currently but watch this space.

Not sure if there is a connection but John Follain's book is released on this day also.

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Online Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

I see the galleries are up again. Congratulation to Michael and the helpers.
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Wow, just saw this picture posted by stint7 on the other board. What a contrast to Knox's moments of crying, looking miserable and sad in the courtroom just an hour earlier. I hope stint7 will post more about it here!

stint7 wrote:
This picture of her supposedly sometime after leaving Capanne on her way to Seattle sure is a lot different from most of what else we have seen from Marriott's sources.

(Sweet dreams, Rocco.
Happy mountain camping and truffle hunting)

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:30 pm

Attachment:
amanda and rocco after verdict 2.jpg


This is a rare find! th-) stint.


Thanks for the kind words, guermantes.

The reason the photo was interesting to me is because it was in such direct contrast to Knox's haggard fragile looks the short time before and after, as well as mostly all later public appearances.

The zombie like Knox being almost carried out of the courtroom before.
The pitifully psychotic looking Knox at her Seattle press conference after
The deranged looking Knox being led around by MadPax and Deanna later.

Sorry, cannot track down more info for you.
Background and coat looks like Capanne just before Mercedes ride to Airport.
But it could also be lights of the Air terminal in the background

Another 'in-between' unguarded photo below was Knox in the airport just before leaving.
Again, the Academy Award "woe is me, look how screwed up I am" performance is missing for an unguarded moment.
Quite a contrast to performance at press conference later.

BTW:
Under the heading of "can't please all the people all the time".....
This was the first and only comment from .org after I posted the same picture:
"Pardon my language, but do we have to have pictures of this furking criminal on this website ? I thought PMF was a safe haven ?


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Offline teabreak


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Teabreak, listen, not to be unfriendly, but to say I'm new here, why say that, everyone who posts here knows you are, and this introduction is a typical Troll introduction, a sort of polite intro, but it isn't polite, it's an insult to people's intelligence, as I mentioned, everyone knows you are new here.


Hi zorba, How do you know I'm new? Just because its my first post? You do know its possible to browse the board without being a member don't you? Perhaps if you were intelligent you might have considered that people mention they are new so you are aware they haven't been lurking here for months reading your inane comments. Oh by the way you are being unfriendly and the board doesnt have an introduction section to say hello in.

zorba wrote:
I do not care about the window.


Then why are you answering my post. It was specifically about the window. if you dont want to discuss it get lost and discuss something else.


zorba wrote:
If a rock had been thrown from outside there would have been glass too, outside, and contrary to your idea, it would not have been east at all to open the window from outside unless you walked on stilts and were with a visiting circus or you took a ladder. Take damned look at the height, I'd love to see you easily open the window.


I said there would be glass outside through the louvers no matter where the window was broken from. Who sifted the soil samples from the ground below the window?

You take a damned look.....the window directly below has a built in ladder.... The window is also less than 36 inches from the edge of the building.

zorba wrote:
So now, hey come back and tell me more of the classic lines, like, well, that's not very friendly, I was only saying... bla bla bla!

Yeah sure, but I know now already where you want to go and I know for sure you are not genuine or sincere, if you were and you were so intelligent too, and truly into debating things without secretly being on Knox's side because in some way you know her or are some American patriot, from wee Seattle town, then you would not day hi I'm new here and then set off on a circular trip. The crime scene was definitely staged


Oh You are a complete mastermind that you can tell so much from one small statement.

Perhaps if you didn't generalise so much you might be able to see past the end of your nose. I'm British by birth and still resident. I couldn't care less about knox I was just curious enough by the aquitall at the appeal (even on the staged breakin) to come and look at the evidence and I couldn't find a translated motivation report from the original trial anywhere else.

I simply could not see the courts reasoning on the window being broken from the inside when they didn't find glass outside and there only being louvered shutters to stop it.

So now wind yer neck in and either tell me how and why you think the window was broken from the inside or go away and annoy someone else.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Just take a walk TBreak I'm not about to tell you a thing or waste my time with you at all.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Nobody was able to climb in there, if they had have been, they would have done, but they, the defence, were unable, their tall lawyer failed.

funny why they didn't get daddy long legs to come and show everyone how the prosecution was all wrong.

Do your own research

If you want to try, I'll arrange it, if I can, and be there to tread on your fingers when you get stuck and are afraid to jump back all the way down.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Wow, just saw this picture posted by stint7 on the other board. What a contrast to Knox's moments of crying, looking miserable and sad in the courtroom just an hour earlier. I hope stint7 will post more about it here!

stint7 wrote:
This picture of her supposedly sometime after leaving Capanne on her way to Seattle sure is a lot different from most of what else we have seen from Marriott's sources.

(Sweet dreams, Rocco.
Happy mountain camping and truffle hunting)

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:30 pm

Attachment:
amanda and rocco after verdict 2.jpg


This is a rare find! th-) stint.



I'm sure she would have loved to have been able to hop into a train carriage with the nice old fellow, even a vacant WC cell.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

By the way, you are American Teabreak and a troll; after your oh so polite and classic introduction that has been used by thousands of trolls before you; I'm new here...

you immediately act like you can say whatever you like, yes you... Mr or Mrs New Person Polite.

You enter a board, you are new, not me, and say shit like that. I think it is you who needs to fuck off.

Anyhow, in Britain we do not write louvered, we write louvred but maybe you are simply thick, as in, perhaps you're British and you cannot spell your own language.

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Offline teabreak


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Nobody was able to climb in there, if they had have been, they would have done, but they, the defence, were unable, their tall lawyer failed.

funny why they didn't get daddy long legs to come and show everyone how the prosecution was all wrong.

Do your own research

If you want to try, I'll arrange it, if I can, and be there to tread on your fingers when you get stuck and are afraid to jump back all the way down.


Morning zorba : )

It would appear you are not really sure of your own mind?

You clain to not want to waste time on my question but then immediately attempt to bring it up again.

However you made a mistake AGAIN. Perhaps you should read my original post once more. I was discussing the staged break in and the reasoning behind the window being broken from the inside.

I didn't mention anyone climbing in through the window only whether the glass was broken from the inside or the outside. Only you mentioned access to inside the property from outside the window.

However I will agree with you that a solicitor (lawyer is a US term in Britain we call them a solicitor) is a lot less likely to be able to pull off the climbing feats an experienced cat burglar is capable of.

zorba wrote:
By the way, you are American Teabreak and a troll, by the way after your oh so polite and classic introduction that has been used by thousands of trolls before you; I'm new here, you immediately act like you can say whatever you like, yes you Mr or Mrs New Person..


I can say whatever I like about the information presented on the board whether I am new or not. There is no rule to say I must not mention the information contained here or comment on it. What I asked was a perfectly reasonable question and it is only your unreasonable paranoid thought process that sees it as anything other.

zorba wrote:
You enter a board, you are new, not me, and say shit like that. I think it is you who needs to fuck off.

Anyhow, in Britain we do not write louvered, we write louvred but maybe you are simply thick, as in, if you are British yet you cannot spell your own language.


Of course you would know all about me just like you do all the details of this case. LOL

Being an American yourself or a Greek musician perhaps you are unaware of the subtle intricacies between US English and English spelling. If you bothered to read my posts correctly you could tell I use the latter more often than not or perhaps in your little mind such things have no consequence?

Now to have to resort to profanity and insults is a bit feeble and an obvious sign you lack the intelligence and maturity to debate facts of the case.

I am going to continue reading the motivations report and bringing up any questions I have of the contents. If you dont like it then ignore it.

Please return to your favourite pastime of ogling pictures of your favourite US media celebrity and bitching about her crying or smiling and leave the facts of the case to those that can be bothered to read them.


Regards

teabreak


Last edited by teabreak on Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

teabreak wrote:
Hi

I'm new here and I'm currently reading through the original motivations report but I am having trouble getting my head round the window being broken from the inside in the staged break in as described by the court.

They claim that as they found no glass outside it follows that the window was broken from the inside with the exterior shutter still closed.

Surely from inside Romanelli's room even with the interior shutter and window casement fully open inwards and at 90 degrees to the exterior shutter, because of the proximity of the window glass to the closed louvered exterior shutters and the force of throw and the angle required to make the damage to the interior shutter. Unless we are going to presume that the momentum of the stone takes all the glass through the casement then this would still allow tiny glass fragments to end up outside or at least in the louvers of the shutter.

Does anyone know if there was any detailed searching or sifting made by forensics of the ground beneath the window?

The prosecution assume that there would have been great difficulty in opening the exterior shutter becaused it rubbed on the sill. However I still cannot see any reason for a staged break in to break the glass from the inside. It would not have been impossible for the shutter to have been opened from the outside so if you were staging it you would have pushed open the shutter from the inside and then thrown the stone from the outside where I presume you would of had to go anyway to find a stone to do the job.

Would anyone here have done it the way the prosecution describe?

Were there any latent prints taken from or other forensics made in Romanelli's room?

Regards

teabreak



Hello teabreak.

The fact the window was broken from the inside is clear not only due to the lack of glass on the ground below (and yes, the ground below was examined of course...not only for glass, but also for footprints and trod down foliage...there was none), but also its arrangement on the outer sill, signifying it came into contact with a straight outer edge, a barrier. That straight outer edge could only have been the outer shutter. I am not aware whether the inner louvres were examined for micro glass fragments or not, I don't believe so. The examination of those was restricted to fingerprinting and DNA.

As for your question of why in staging a burglary they would break the window from the inside, rather then the outside, isn't the answer to that question rather obvious? If they broke it from the outside they may have been seen and they certainly didn't want to be seen. Better to break it from the inside where they could remain hidden. Moreover, breaking it from the outside would have meant throwing the (large) rock hard upwards and fast over distance..accurately. That would not only have been difficult and dangerous, but extremely noisy. Far quieter to break it from close range from the inside. In addition, breaking it from the inside meant they could keep the outer shutter closed, in order to obscure the broken window from view and to deaden the noise when they broke it.

But since you mentioned micro pieces of glass, it is worth noting that such micro pieces of glass were found in the corridor and living room areas, indicating that they had been shed from someones clothing. For that to have been on their clothing, it meant they would have had to have been very close to the window, rather then outside at distance, when they broke it. Incidentally, none of those micro traces of glass were found in Meredith's room (or the large bathroom).


teabreak wrote:
Hi zorba, How do you know I'm new? Just because its my first post? You do know its possible to browse the board without being a member don't you? Perhaps if you were intelligent you might have considered that people mention they are new so you are aware they haven't been lurking here for months reading your inane comments. Oh by the way you are being unfriendly and the board doesnt have an introduction section to say hello in.


Might I just say, it being only your second post here, that you refrain from being rude to other members.

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Offline teabreak


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Hi Michael

Thanks for your reply.

I didn't notice any detailed photographs of the area below the window. Do you know where I can find these?

It might also be a good idea for you to remind your established members not to be rude to new members who are simply asking a civil question. Perhaps if a certain member had more self control and had not been even more rude to me I would not have had to relpy as I did.


Last edited by teabreak on Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

teabreak wrote:
Hi Michael

Thanks for your reply.

I didn't notice any detailed photographs of the area below the window or the glass fragments found in the corridor or livingroom. Do you know where I can find these?

It might also be a good idea for you to remind your established members not to be rude to new members who are simply asking a civil question. Perhaps if a certain member had more self control and had not posted accusations over my intentions and intelligence I would not have had to relpy as I did.


Well, there aren't going to be detailed photos of evidence of the ground below the window released are there? The police photographers' job is to photograph and document physical evidence, not the absence of it. There are no detailed photographs because they found nothing to photograph, that's the point.

As for the micro traces of glass inside the cottage, you aren't going to have photos of those either, since they are 'micro'. We aren't talking about a trail of glass visible to the naked eye here. All you are going to have is a mention of it, in the forensics report, as being found.

Might I saw, when you are a new poster on a board, it is best and wisest practice to ignore perceived rudeness. When suddenly arriving as a stranger in the middle of a conversation between other people, it never does to immediately react and become belligerent. The member in question is suspicious of you and for good reason. It's best to prove his suspicions wrong by not rising to it.

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Offline teabreak


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Actually I remember reading in the motivations that the postal police had entered Romanelli's room before it was established that it was part of a larger murder crime scene. I guess that might account for the micro glass fragments being found in the corridor and livingroom but not in Merediths room.

I am guessing that when the window was initally photgraphed an entry there was suspected.

I thought it was good practice to photograph areas of a crime scene particularlly when these are outside and relatively small and are likely to become degraded by the elements rather quickly just in case initial points are missed. I mean one or two photos of the wall and ground would have done. Got to blame the lead detective for missing that one.

regards
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Offline donnie

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Wow, just saw this picture posted by stint7 on the other board. What a contrast to Knox's moments of crying, looking miserable and sad in the courtroom just an hour earlier. I hope stint7 will post more about it here!


What, exactly, would you expect after being acquitted? It was taken, apparently, more than hour after the verdict.
Also, isn't it normal to look absolutlety terrified before the verdict (and looking miserable, sad and cry for joy after the verdict) and then isn't it normal to release the stress by crying out loud when being led out of the courtroom? Finally, it's not surprising to see Knox more relaxed and smiling after she realised she's getting out.

Also, the picture was all over Facebook, some other boards and on Girlanda's Facebook account. It's rarity is a subjective issue.


Last edited by donnie on Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

teabreak wrote:
Actually I remember reading in the motivations that the postal police had entered Romanelli's room before it was established that it was part of a larger murder crime scene. I guess that might account for the micro glass fragments being found in the corridor and livingroom but not in Merediths room.

I am guessing that when the window was initally photgraphed an entry there was suspected.

I thought it was good practice to photograph areas of a crime scene particularlly when these are outside and relatively small and are likely to become degraded by the elements rather quickly just in case initial points are missed. I mean one or two photos of the wall and ground would have done. Got to blame the lead detective for missing that one.

regards


No, these were micro pieces of glass that had fallen from clothing due to proximity to the window when it broke. And in any case, Filomena's bedroom was one of the first places they (the police, Filomena, Raffaele and Amanda) went to. They then toured the rest of the cottage. So, were they responsible for distributing the micro glass, then we would have expected to also see it in the laundry areas, larger bathroom, smaller bathroom, Laura's room and Amanda's room. Instead, it was found only in the limited areas described in my previous post.

The areas of the cottage were photographed, outside and inside. But only close ups of areas were photographed that rendered actual evidence. And no doubt, there were many photos not included in the 10,000 page evidence file submitted to the court/defence teams since they weren't considered important in making the case against the three of them.

It is also worth noting, as it's oft forgotten, that the experts for the defendants also performed examinations of the cottage, both inside and outside. They have never contested the fact of the absence of glass outside the window (one of the few things they've never contested, in fact). I therefore don't see, why others should feel the need to do so.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

donnie wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Wow, just saw this picture posted by stint7 on the other board. What a contrast to Knox's moments of crying, looking miserable and sad in the courtroom just an hour earlier. I hope stint7 will post more about it here!


What, exactly, would you expect after being acquitted? It was taken, apparently, more than hour after the verdict.
Also, isn't it normal to look absolutlety terrified before the verdict (and looking miserable, sad and cry for joy after the verdict) and then isn't it normal to release the stress by crying out loud when being led out of the courtroom? Finally, it's not surprising to see Knox more relaxed and smiling after she realised she's getting out.

Also, the picture was all over Facebook, some other boards and on Girlanda's Facebook account. It's rarity is a subjective issue.


Sure, I'd certainly smiling if I'd just gotten away with murder.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

teabreak wrote:
I am guessing that when the window was initally photgraphed an entry there was suspected.


Sure. But when it was first photographed a staging was ALSO suspected. Since you have read the Massei Report pertaining to the part regarding the Postal Police visiting Filomena's room, you will also note the part where the policeman immediately said to Amanda and Raffaele that the break-in looked staged, since glass was on top of the disturbed clothing and items. This was combined with the fact nothing appeared to be stolen.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

teabreak wrote:
I didn't notice any detailed photographs of the area below the window. Do you know where I can find these?


Whilst there are no 'close-up' photos of the ground outside the window publicly available that I'm aware of, you can find outside pics of that area in the PMF gallery, in the both the 'Cottage' and 'Crime Scene' albums.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Michael wrote:

Sure, I'd certainly smiling if I'd just gotten away with murder.


Do you know a person that wouldn't? :)

Though, I'm not sure if she was laughing. Happy, that's what comes to mind.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

jhansigirl wrote:
Thanks Michael.

Apologies if this has been posted already. In the UK Channel 5 are broadcasting "Amanda Knox: The Untold Story" on Tuesday 25 October at 20:00. I do not have any more details than this currently but watch this space.

Not sure if there is a connection but John Follain's book is released on this day also.


Hi jhansigirl,

thanks for the heads up. First I thought is was the same documentary -- "Amanda Knox: The Untold story" -- that aired on Oct 8 on CBS as part of 48 Hours Mystery series. I posted about it HERE.

But it looks like it's going to be a different documentary with the same title:

C5 to reveal the 'untold story' of Amanda Knox

Quote:
Hour-long doc Amanda Knox: The Untold Story is a Cineflix Production, made in association with ITN.
It will feature previously unseen footage from the murder scene, dramatic reconstruction of the crime and contributions from crime and forensic experts. Members of the Knox family will also contribute.
It also includes an exclusive interview with Patrick Lumumba, who Knox originally accused of the murder.
The film will also ask what the acquittal means for the Kercher family as the search for Kercher’s murderer continues.


By the way, the full, nearly one-hour episode of 48 Hours Mystery is available to watch online for free:

Amanda Knox:The Untold Story

You can also watch it on Youtube:



hugz-)


Last edited by guermantes on Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

donnie wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Wow, just saw this picture posted by stint7 on the other board. What a contrast to Knox's moments of crying, looking miserable and sad in the courtroom just an hour earlier. I hope stint7 will post more about it here!


What, exactly, would you expect after being acquitted? It was taken, apparently, more than hour after the verdict.
Also, isn't it normal to look absolutlety terrified before the verdict (and looking miserable, sad and cry for joy after the verdict) and then isn't it normal to release the stress by crying out loud when being led out of the courtroom? Finally, it's not surprising to see Knox more relaxed and smiling after she realised she's getting out.

Also, the picture was all over Facebook, some other boards and on Girlanda's Facebook account. It's rarity is a subjective issue.


Hey donnie, you don't have to come here and defend your la_). She is now free, remember? Write her a letter of congratulations on getting away with murder or something.

I spend absolutely NO time on Facebook. I don't have the time for it, so thanks to stint once more for bringing the photo to this board. Everyone here understood what I meant by expressing my astonishment at how both Knox and Girlanda looked while celebrating her release in a showy, unashamed and vulgar manner. If you see it differently, well, good for you.

I have no time to make idle conversation with you either. I don't see any need for you to come back here and have to do it all over. Goodbye. I don't think we'll miss you.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

teabreak wrote:
However I will agree with you that a solicitor (lawyer is a US term in Britain we call them a solicitor).



Incorrect, a solicitor is one of the things that can fall under the umbrella term lawyer, it is not a US term only.

Did solicitors represent Knox and Sollecito?

You are American, it's your manner that gives you away, or lack of any.

So in all unfriendliness; you have nothing at all to say.
Everything you are doing has been seen a billion times already, in typical troll fashion.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Ah yes, Danny the pervert has but to hear the name Knox and the mention of a train andrthere he is again, hey, you are never going to get any sex with Knox, why do you come here?

You have been a complete liar, all along, the other board has banned you and I think you should be banned here too, in fact, if you are going to write here, then I am not. So Michael, I hope you are reading this, Danny is a liar and made misuse of us all.

The first thing he did, after all of what he had said, after people showed him kindness, was to make a POINT of showing that he was out to congratulate Knox. He played everyone, when all as he was up to was jacking off at the thought of her and did not care at all about the actual case, did not care at all about Meredith.

It's too much that he's allowed to continue this crap here.

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Teabreak, listen, not to be unfriendly, but to say I'm new here, why say that, everyone who posts here knows you are, and this introduction is a typical Troll introduction, a sort of polite intro, but it isn't polite, it's an insult to people's intelligence, as I mentioned, everyone knows you are new here.

I do not care about the window, there are many ways Sollecito, or maybe Knox, between them broke the window.

It was jolly good of Sollecito to immediately start explain in the case to the police and pretty much trying to do their job for them.
Very tidy murder(er).

If a rock had been thrown from outside there would have been glass too, outside, and contrary to your idea, it would not have been east at all to open the window from outside unless you walked on stilts and were with a visiting circus or you took a ladder. Take damned look at the height, I'd love to see you easily open the window. So big deal, Sollecito, did open the window, smashed the glass then pushed it back for some reason, some reason being he was not an experienced burglar and was too smug and big for his own boots, so he had no way of carrying out a perfect crime, well, it may seem perfect now both of them are getting away with murder up until now.

So now, hey come back and tell me more of the classic lines, like, well, that's not very friendly, I was only saying... bla bla bla!

Yeah sure, but I know now already where you want to go and I know for sure you are not genuine or sincere, if you were and you were so intelligent too, and truly into debating things without secretly being on Knox's side because in some way you know her or are some American patriot, from wee Seattle town, then you would not day hi I'm new here and then set off on a circular trip. The crime scene was definitely staged


Good reply, Zorba. :) I thought the same about "teabreak". Probably one of Bruce Fisher's minions, wearing a camouflage Chris Mellas-style flat hat, along with a camouflage tank top, and pretending to be from the UK. It's the little things that give them away. Who else but an American would say "Morning Zorba" at 2 pm UTC+1 (9 am EST)?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
BTW:
Under the heading of "can't please all the people all the time".....
This was the first and only comment from .org after I posted the same picture:
"Pardon my language, but do we have to have pictures of this furking criminal on this website ? I thought PMF was a safe haven ?


Ouch, I say, as someone who also got something similar from out of left field :(

Bring all the pictures of Mandy you got over here, stint7, this is a site about Meredith Kercher and the people who killed her.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Ah yes, Danny the pervert has but to hear the name Knox and the mention of a train andrthere he is again, hey, you are never going to get any sex with Knox, why do you come here?

You have been a complete liar, all along, the other board has banned you and I think you should be banned here too, in fact, if you are going to write here, then I am not. So Michael, I hope you are reading this, Danny is a liar and made misuse of us all.

The first thing he did, after all of what he had said, after people showed him kindness, was to make a POINT of showing that he was out to congratulate Knox. He played everyone, when all as he was up to was jacking off at the thought of her and did not care at all about the actual case, did not care at all about Meredith.

It's too much that he's allowed to continue this crap here.

Oh yaaaah donnie boy. sun-) sun-) sun-) sun-) sun-) sun-) sun-) sun-)
His intention is rarely "a subjective issue." sun-) sun-) sun-) sun-) sun-) sun-) sun-)
Wake and smell yourself dawnie sun-) sun-) sun-) sun-) sun-) sun-)
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Thanks stint7 for your reply.

I found this long (3 pages!) interview with Girlanda in Edizione on-line del Corriere Canadese (The Canadian Italian Daily News) at corriere.com

Rocco Girlanda: 'A story created by the media'
Member of Italian Parliament, author of the book I'm coming with you, saw Knox after the verdict: she was euphoric

Published: 05/10/2011

Somewhat improved Google translation of the interview:

Page 1

TORONTO – He was "absolutely prepared" that Amanda Knox was going to be acquitted. He was convinced, Rocco Girlanda, deputy chairman of the PDL but especially Italy-USA Foundation and author of the book I'm coming with you, where he recounts his talks in prison with the girl from Seattle. "In these two years I have taken care of her as president of the Italy-USA Foundation, she has always declared that she is absolutely innocent and has always spoken of a serious miscarriage of justice in the first degree."

So Amanda was sure of acquittal?

"She was convinced of acquittal, as the process has played out in this level of appeal. But the terror was that she had to return to the courtroom because she said: "I still got the shock of when I was convicted the first time." When she heard the word "acquittal", she began to cry. "

You met her after the verdict?

"Yes, I met her when she was brought back to prison. I was with her an hour and a half to complete all the bureaucracy, then put her in the car that we had prepared and went away. I’d given her a personal gift, an iPhone 4 with a ticket for her freedom. She appreciated it a lot and was afraid to touch it because it looked so nice. We are talking about a 24 year old girl, who has spent the last four years in prison and has never seen an iPhone. These are the signs of passing time. "

How did you find her?

"Of course, elated. In the prison of Perugia there was an atmosphere like in a stadium. There is a large courtyard surrounded by prison blocks and all the male and female prisoners have approached the windows and fought against the railings, "Amanda's free." A festive atmosphere with regard to the prison. In Perugia, there have been protests outside the courthouse. "

On Monday, CNN Live, translated the calls "Shame"(Vergogna) outside the courthouse as "Victoria." Does not that seem excessive to change the reality?

"Regarding the translation of CNN, I do not know. To be honest, in Perugia, where I live, no one really cares about this crime. It was more a thing like that. "

-------------------------------------------
Continued in next post.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Page 2

The media have treated Amanda as Annamaria Franzoni in Cogne case, by replacing the victim with the protagonist of the process. Was it a help or a harm to Amanda? She also played a role in the Court or only in the media?

"I am convinced that the media respect and does not touch the question itself. In this process the media has played a key role: Amanda has been described as a woman all drugs, sex and rock'n'roll. Amanda however is a different person: a girl of 24 years, atypical, in a positive sense, than the average twenty-four-year-old. A girl who studies law and embarrasses me in cultural issues. A stable girl, relaxed. I think the media has wanted to create a story that does not exist. "

"Foxy Knoxy", where does it come from?

"I believe that a girl of twenty years with poor knowledge of Italian can make mistakes, naïveté more than anything else. Let us always remember that both she and Raffaele have said that the night when they were brought to the Questura, they were convinced to be there half an hour, explaining things, and leave. They found the long hours in an interrogation, where it is said that the judge did not call the lawyer, even after they were charged. They were unprepared for such a thing, and they were youngsters of twenty years. "

There remains the question of who killed Meredith.

"In Umbria at this time there are 26 cases of unsolved murders, that falls into one of these. Although this one seems in part solved. "

A thought for the Kercher family?

"As for me, I was always on the side of the victim, whereas the family of Meredith and she herself are the people who have had more damage from this incident. Amanda says: "I too have lost a friend, so I'm sorry as you, I had nothing to do but embrace all. That night I wasn’t there, I am not guilty, I was somewhere else. '"

When will you see Amanda?

Page 3

"It's all planned. Amanda arrived in Seattle last night (yesterday, ed) at 3 am, she moved to a safe location and then in thirty days we will see. "

Who is ultimately the true victim in Perugia?

"Surely Meredith, there is no shadow of a doubt."

THE END.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

zorba wrote:
Jackie wrote:
Is it my imagination or did Zorba post a summary of the Italian code in respect of manslaughter?

(Please don't feel you have to type it out again, Z.! I'll try to find something on my own when I get a moment.)

I thought I spotted it a few days ago but it seems to have vanished - perhaps something to do with the latest attack on the board.

Alas, good to see that Michael is back!

I may have missed a PM or 2 with the glitch - hope no one will hold a failure to reply against me!


musta got lost too then
this link contains all of the Italian codes, civil and penal and more.

You'll need to use google translate to make some sense of it, and it's surprising how much sense can be made of it using google translate
I'll give you the original version too, in Italian of kors.

This one is the translated version
http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... ot%3d36806


I am now going over to my secret agent accent, it's kind of Russian.
Here is ze address to ze linkchov in Italianотсюда for your perusal.
http://www.altalex.com
Eat this link after you have read it, signed: Agent Nereovchov


Thanks, Z.!
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

teabreak wrote:
...
However I will agree with you that a solicitor (lawyer is a US term in Britain we call them a solicitor)...


What about "barristers"?!

There are 2 classes among lawyers in the UK, "teabreak" ;-)

PS Why do you suppose Lord Denning used the term "lawyers" when he wrote, rather famously, "Words are the lawyers tools of trade"? And what was Shakespeare on about in Henry VI when he wrote, even more famously, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"? (Can't get much more quintessentially English than Shakespeare and Denning!)

PPS Why is Team Knox so rife with dullards?


Last edited by Jackie on Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

guermantes wrote:

"Yes, I met her when she was brought back to prison. I was with her an hour and a half to complete all the bureaucracy, then put her in the car that we had prepared and went away. I’d given her a personal gift, an iPhone 4 with a ticket for her freedom. She appreciated it a lot and was afraid to touch it because it looked so nice. We are talking about a 24 year old girl, who has spent the last four years in prison and has never seen an iPhone. These are the signs of passing time. "



An iPhone 4! :o

There are some people who would kill for a free iPhone 4. Oh - she did!

wh-)

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Last edited by jhansigirl on Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

jhansigirl wrote:
guermantes wrote:

"Yes, I met her when she was brought back to prison. I was with her an hour and a half to complete all the bureaucracy, then put her in the car that we had prepared and went away. I’d given her a personal gift, an iPhone 4 with a ticket for her freedom. She appreciated it a lot and was afraid to touch it because it looked so nice. We are talking about a 24 year old girl, who has spent the last four years in prison and has never seen an iPhone. These are the signs of passing time. "



An iPhone 4! :o

There are some people would kill for a free iPhone 4. Oh - she did!

wh-)


Knox could kill for a pizza.

For her, cell phones are disposable - just another toy to display. or throw away in the garden. Is it pink like the bunny?

When is her music video going to be released ... something about the cold north wind; mistral?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

If her musical skills are as bad good as her literary skills then its probably best not knowing.

I'm still waiting for her to go into hiding or lie low at that secret location that isn't secret.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

It would seem some people are getting upset at the stories put out some time ago that the Kerchers are about to sue Amanda Knox. The call is, that these are lies.

I'm not sure if these are lies as such. I think that suing Knox is a potential option for the Kerchers and that elements of the media have taken speculation over that option and turned it into fact. I stated some time ago that the option for a private suit was on the table for the Kerchers, but there was no way they were going to do that (and neither would a judge let them) until the final appeal had run its course...once the criminal prosecution had run through the process. I also think, if after that, it looked like the Knox Clan were trying to cash in, that would be a factor in any Kercher decision. But whatever, that's way down the line in the distant future. That means it's spin. Spin is lies, but lies not quite in the way people know them. Speculations are often sold as a real story and speculations often tend to contain elements of truth, but paint the wrong picture and paint it as true...that's the media.

I do think this media speculation has had a benefit though. It's served to make the Melloxes keep their heads down more than they would have otherwise and also, rigorously rethink rushing to the media to make a mint out of Brand Knox.

There are a great many people out there that would find it absolutely repugnant should Knox or her family profit in any way from what happened to Meredith...even if it is under the euphemism of 'the Knox's doing so to help pay back their legal debts'. I find it even more nasty, this insidious idea, that the world somehow 'owes' them to help them do so, that they are entitled.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Where are we now?

I think that's the question many of us are wondering. The answer is, at present, we are in a legal and situational limbo. One phase has ended and another is to come, but we cannot sharply evaluate either until the appeal report is released and the prosecution appeal is filed. In the meantime, all we can do is absorb, watch the media, report it and maintain and upgrade our database...oh, and publicly dispute the odd lie out there if we see them being put about. Justice may have been a victim of the second degree but the truth need not be. It certainly shouldn't mean the FOAKers should have license to rewrite history and truth in their image, unchallenged. Truth isn't a concept, it's an absolute. It is what it says in my signature. Nothing can change that. In the absence of justice, truth serves because for true justice, truth is the primary and one indispensable ingredient of it. In lieu of true justice, truth serves.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

By the way...the whole time we've been focusing on this case, the World's been changing. Not for the better either.

We can shock and offend, but by far right now, the greatest profanity...the worst words in the universe right now are (look away children)...'the future'.

We've always been afraid of the future. Never before has it created such terror though.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Not only must Justice be done, it must SEEM to be done.

I await the justification Report ( if one can call it that ) with, I imagine..Shock and Awe. I imagine it will be something like, as a child, watching a top spin, and spin, and spin. And, it always fell.

I don't know if any-one else feels the same..but...I see these pictures of Amanda..and am just struck..with how Ordinary she is..not to say, rather plain. The pictures of her with Deanna..so obviously staged. I did have a rather wry laugh..poor, downbeat, WRONGED Amanda poses. Clutching hands, with all and sundry. I think FRAGILE is supposed to come to mind. Yeah, but that's kind of hard to pull off, being as...sturdy as she is :)

There are some things Amanda will be facing. They remain, at this time..predictions pmed to a couple of people.

Suffice to say, Amanda has no remorse, no empathy. That's the way she's always been, the way she will remain. Unless, of course, it concerns her. She's loving her * idea that she's a heroine *. This feeds her warped ego.

First, she imagined she'd get away with murder.

Now, it's changed to being seen as a kind of Joan D'Arc. She believes this as well. Like a chameleon, she can change to what she thinks people perceive her as being. Under the skin though, she's just an empty shell. It lives and breathes, eats and sleeps. But, it doesn't feel..to the extent, only when it pertains to her.

All well and good.......EXCEPT, there's that little thing called Karma. It can come in many guises. And, it's coming, Manders. All the bodyguards in the World can't change it. Neither can money, or infamy.

At the end of the day, Amanda is NOT famous. She's infamous. Her name forevermore coupled with Meredith Kercher, and destroying an innocent man's reputation, his livliehood. And, there will always be many, many people, who know that she's guilty. The same as Casey Anthony..and OJ. That will never change.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Critical visual judgment is needed to assess court evidence
October 21, 2011 01:40 AM
By Richard K. Sherwin

The Daily Star :: Lebanon News
---------------
Richard K. Sherwin, professor of law and director of the Visual Persuasion Project at New York Law School, is the author of “Visualizing Law in the Age of the Digital Baroque: Arabesques & Entanglements” and “When Law Goes Pop: The Vanishing Line between Law and Popular Culture.”
---------------
WARNING: Graphic images of Gadhafi's dead body in an article on the same website.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Michael wrote:
By the way...the whole time we've been focusing on this case, the World's been changing. Not for the better either.

We can shock and offend, but by far right now, the greatest profanity...the worst words in the universe right now are (look away children)...'the future'.

We've always been afraid of the future. Never before has it created such terror though.


It's healthy to feel fear, Michael. That's how we change. Hold on to what we can, love our friends and family, form groups and associations, fight for a cause. Those things are real.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Seattle PR firm reveals efforts to free Amanda Knox
Puget Sound Business Journal by Heidi Dietrich, Contributing Writer
Date: Friday, October 21, 2011, 5:00am PDT - Last Modified: Friday, October 21, 2011, 5:00am PDT
(7 pages)
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news ... ts-to.html

"Marriott has formulated a media plan for the days going forward, but he won’t discuss details. He plans to be ready if the prosecution appeals the acquittal. He also wants to help Amanda find the best vehicle to tell her story, and advise her on when to do so."
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

From the article:

“There will be financial opportunities,” Marriott said. “I’ll be there to walk them through the opportunities.”
Both Marriott and Curt Knox say that Amanda wants to tell her story.
“Amanda will speak for herself,” Marriott said. “There are a bunch of options available to her,
and the question is which will give her the chance to tell her story with dignity and class.


Dignity and class...those are the attributes that have been used to characterize the Kercher family, by almost every journalist in the world.
Kind of transparent, isn't it?
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Ava wrote:
From the article:

“There will be financial opportunities,” Marriott said...“There are a bunch of options available to her,
and the question is which will give her the chance to tell her story with dignity and class.


Dignity and class...those are the attributes that have been used to characterize the Kercher family, by almost every journalist in the world.
Kind of transparent, isn't it?



Dignity. Always Dignity.



Great find, Ava! Thank you.

So, Marriott's looking for opportunities that allow Knox to tell her story with "dignity and class."

More like: Dignity, Class and MONEY.

If all they wanted were 'dignity and class', Knox could sit down with CNN or some other legitimate news agency that refuses to pay for interviews.

But the kind of producers that put up $$$ aren't stupid, they want somwthing that will draw a huge audience/ big ad revenues - something that necessitates an element of drama - something NEW.

How does one create that drama/ suspense when the Knox clan as been on every TV stage from Oprah to GMA, repeatedly trying to beat Amanda's version of events into our heads???

HINT: An independent producer offered Casey Anthony a million bucks IF she'd take a Lie Detector Test on camera.

IIRC, the producer said Anthony was going to be grilled 'like a bad fish'.

Dignity. Always Dignity.




PS I wonder if JLOL's Fake Jurist with Fat Thumbs has bothered to read this article about Marriott's work. (LJ routinely denied that Marriott did anything more than field phone calls on a volunteer basis! LOL Now you know the real reason he crashed and burned on the LSAT: He's dumber 'n ****.)


Last edited by Jackie on Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Ava wrote:
Seattle PR firm reveals efforts to free Amanda Knox
Puget Sound Business Journal by Heidi Dietrich, Contributing Writer
Date: Friday, October 21, 2011, 5:00am PDT - Last Modified: Friday, October 21, 2011, 5:00am PDT
(7 pages)
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news ... ts-to.html

"Marriott has formulated a media plan for the days going forward, but he won’t discuss details. He plans to be ready if the prosecution appeals the acquittal. He also wants to help Amanda find the best vehicle to tell her story, and advise her on when to do so."



AMAZING to behold.

Proof that Bruce FisCher is a liar. (Will anyone on the JREF thread have the moral integrity to hold Bruce "Fisher" to account???)

Just LOOK at this stuff:

"...The PARTNERSHIP between the Knox family and Marriott illustrates the potential of a public relations CAMPAIGN TO SHIFT SENTIMENT — and possibly even INFLUENCE A VERDICT...

Marriott signed on with the Knox family three days after Amanda’s arrest, FOR FINANCIAL TERMS neither side will disclose...

Marriott needed to develop a long-term media STRATEGY…Marriott was left trying to redefine her persona...

in early 2008, Marriott took the publicity CAMPAIGN one step further by persuading Amanda’s lawyers to allow the Knox family to give interviews...

“‘48 Hours’ and ‘20/20’ were better PARTNERS for David Marriott and the Knox family than many other media outlets,” said Barry Mitzman, professor of communication at Seattle University...

Marriott has formulated a media PLAN for the days going forward, but he won’t discuss details. He plans to be ready if the prosecution appeals the acquittal..."

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Dignity and class? That's not even in the Knox/Mellas vocabulary. And, yes, Jackie...Bruce Fisher is a proven liar. ( Great posts, btw.)

I believe they know Amanda is guilty. But, the vehicle (Amanda, )was a way for many to jump on the bandwagon, and make the moolah. In order to do that, there was no option but to lie, bully, and, hire a PR firm, to achieve the end they needed. They went for it, hell for leather. There was a lot at stake. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

For everyone, Amanda has become the CASH COW. Remember the tears Curt shed, when whingeing about his mortgage?

They pimped themselves out.........and their CHILDREN.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Ava wrote:
From the article:

“There will be financial opportunities,” Marriott said. “I’ll be there to walk them through the opportunities.”
Both Marriott and Curt Knox say that Amanda wants to tell her story.
“Amanda will speak for herself,” Marriott said. “There are a bunch of options available to her,
and the question is which will give her the chance to tell her story with dignity and class.


Dignity and class...those are the attributes that have been used to characterize the Kercher family, by almost every journalist in the world.
Kind of transparent, isn't it?



SELL her story more like. And with Marriott talking about 'opportunities'...is it even possible to be more repugnant?

I'm not an old man, but I feel old...part of a past age. These days, everything is seen as an 'opportunity'...as a 'commodity'.

This is when Marriott cashes in, with interest, on all he's owed. He never served Knox, rather he invested in her.

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

(( OT OT ))

The danger of swimming with scum is to be tainted by it. Long hot showers help, but so does escapism. Who thought wigs could possibly be so funny?: http://www.youtube.com/user/beckie0

(play the video on her profile)

This girl is a star!

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Michael wrote:
...
I'm not an old man, but I feel old...part of a past age. These days, everything is seen as an 'opportunity'...as a 'commodity'...


Cheer up, Michael! The information age is not all bad. I'm not the only one that's been enlightened via PMF's translations! Knox can run from the internet, even make money from it, but she can't really hide from it. I don't think bastards like Marriott can trump the truth in the Marketplace of Ideas - not in the long run.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

We're not going to see a book from Manders any time soon. It's going to take some time to try and give a co-hesive account .

Can't remembers, the best truth..will not fly. And, will anyone accept her * truth * 4 years later? When memory has dimmed?

Gonna be very boring, to say the least.

Let's see: * Well, ummm, we.......ummm. oh, yeah, we stayed home. We ate fish.....umm, oh, yeah, we made love....umm. Raf cleaned my ears.......ummm.... . In the morning, I was...ummm...more concerned ...ummm. about getting...err, the mop to Raf.

Prison Diary? In brackets, just to impress...( Mi prigione Diario) sp.

Anyone think that just MAY be self serving? That's not exactly testimony, open to cross examination.

I'm assuming ( yawn ) it will have some snippets about guards, of both sexes, wanting to do her. How many times did Manders let all and sundry know, that guys were hitting on her? Even telling Raf this, the morning at the police station.

Methinks she doest protest too much. In my experience, attractive women have no need to trumpet their desirability to all and sundry. It's a given . It's understood. Insecure women, however will do it. Let's see. If it's said enough times, maybe it will be believed. Amanda was, and is, very ordinary.

No personality, even. No funny repartee. No talent in anything. Unless one can call lying a talent.

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
Michael wrote:
...
I'm not an old man, but I feel old...part of a past age. These days, everything is seen as an 'opportunity'...as a 'commodity'...


Cheer up, Michael! The information age is not all bad. I'm not the only one that's been enlightened via PMF's translations! Knox can run from the internet, even make money from it, but she can't really hide from it. I don't think bastards like Marriott can trump the truth in the Marketplace of Ideas - not in the long run.



Yes, I don't think Marriott is a very clever PR man. His 'strategies' and way of thinking are too crude and will probably repel people in the long run. In fact he's the one who seems to be part of a past age.
It's really shameless though they (he and the Knoxes) don't even try to hide anything of that now.


Here is another detail I found interesting. Makes you almost feel sorry for Ghirga and Della Vedova:

"Then, in early 2008, Marriott took the publicity campaign one step further by persuading Amanda’s "lawyers to allow the Knox family to give interviews.
“I said, ‘We are getting killed here,’ ” Marriott said. “We need to have Mom and Dad.”
The lawyers consented, but cautioned Amanda’s parents against talking about case specifics. They should instead focus on their daughter’s true personality.
The Knox family, who’d felt silenced for months, couldn’t wait to begin."
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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Ava wrote:
From the article:

“Dignity and class...?"



Surely this is a typo, it should be 'Indignity and crass'

la-)

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
We're not going to see a book from Manders any time soon. It's going to take some time to try and give a co-hesive account .

Can't remembers, the best truth..will not fly. And, will anyone accept her * truth * 4 years later? When memory has dimmed?

Gonna be very boring, to say the least.

Let's see: * Well, ummm, we.......ummm. oh, yeah, we stayed home. We ate fish.....umm, oh, yeah, we made love....umm. Raf cleaned my ears.......ummm.... . In the morning, I was...ummm...more concerned ...ummm. about getting...err, the mop to Raf.

Prison Diary? In brackets, just to impress...( Mi prigione Diario) sp.

Anyone think that just MAY be self serving? That's not exactly testimony, open to cross examination.

I'm assuming ( yawn ) it will have some snippets about guards, of both sexes, wanting to do her. How many times did Manders let all and sundry know, that guys were hitting on her? Even telling Raf this, the morning at the police station.

Methinks she doest protest too much. In my experience, attractive women have no need to trumpet their desirability to all and sundry. It's a given . It's understood. Insecure women, however will do it. Let's see. If it's said enough times, maybe it will be believed. Amanda was, and is, very ordinary.


No personality, even. No funny repartee. No talent in anything. Unless one can call lying a talent.



I haven't followed the case from the very beginning, but sometimes it seems to me as if it was Amanda who brought up the sex/femme fatale topic first, and then the media used it in their ways.
Anyway, her constant talking about her own attractiveness is very boring, you're right...
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

jhansigirl wrote:
Surely this is a typo, it should be 'Indignity and crass'
[/quote]


:)
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Ava, It's ALWAYS Amanda bringing up how desirable she is. She uses sex as a weapon, and truly confuses the issue. She thinks getting laid, means admiration. She gives it away, like cheap candy. I guess no one ever told her, that it's quality, not quantity.

Stint might like to do a photo collage of Amanda's lovers/admirers. pig-) pig-) pig-) pig-) pig-) You have to have the stomach for it, though. eee-)

I feel this all goes to Amanda's thought process. She uses sex. hump-)

I also don't think we'll be seeing any interviews, with the fair one :) nw)

Even an expensive PR firm, can't make pigs fly. pig-) It will be so obvious, what a liar she is...and there will be many, who will pick up on her guilt.A diary will be safer. No-one to deny anything. Amanda's version, and imagination. Imagination will be key here. Betcha NO NAMES mentioned. sun-) ( as to sexual harassment ) nw)

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

David Marriott in his office in Seattle (video)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44803004/ns/us_news-life/#.TpfXdHOjLx4
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

This is too funny not to share – Sollecito hits back and files a defamation complaint against 4 journalists.

This is most likely a countermove by Sollecito after his relatives have been charged with invasion of privacy, leaking a crime scene video to Telenorba and publication of arbitrary acts of a criminal case.

Actually, the complaint was filed back in 2008, but the file has now been reopened by the Attorney General of Puglia.

Meredith – Sollecito accuses 4 journalists of defamation
19/10/2011 - 14:43

PERUGIA - A statement to the prosecutor of Trani for libel against four journalists, which Raffaele Sollecito had presented in 2008. Now after three years, after his acquittal for the murder of Meredith Kercher and the release from prison, the Attorney Pugliese has reopened the case.

The 27 year old from Giovinazzo, arrested for the murder of British student (with Amanda Knox and Rudi Guede) and acquitted on appeal on 3 October, has reported receiving accusations from reporters about his alleged drug abuse. In particular in a complaint in the file that the prosecution has re-opened, it refers to an episode of 'Top Secret' broadcast on the network 4.

The complaint, however, dates back to July 31, 2008, when Sollecito was still held in prison in Terni. The prosecutor Antonio Savasta has, in fact, advised the Perugia police station to investigate, to see if there had been a dissemination of news "inherently false and contrary to the actual content of the acts of the criminal proceedings" by Claudio Brachino and colleagues Remo Croci (speaking as a guest in an episode of July 16, 2008) and Micaela Bohle and Lella Volta (whose two reports were broadcast in the same episode). In reports it was said that the defendants were smoking "every night 10-15 joints, even large joints (blunts), for more support."

Sollecito claims in his complaint that the news is untrue. "No person who is abusing the drug in question, would make use of so massive an amount - says the 27 year old in the complaint - nor was this fact mentioned in any of the acts of the criminal proceedings." In explaining that one of the news services reported that on the bra of Meredith were found the DNA of both Sollecito and Guede, this circumstance would be denied – Sollecito maintained - in particular, from a report compiled by forensic geneticists. In the broadcast, finally, there was even talk of shoe prints attributed to Sollecito that were on the scene of the crime. The young man, in the complaint, reminded that the investigating judge had ruled that the shoeprints couldn’t be traced to his shoes.


http://www.umbrialeft.it/notizie/meredith-sollecito-denuncia-4-giornalisti-diffamazione
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Quote:
Sollecito claims in his complaint that the news is untrue. "No person who is abusing the drug in question, would make use of so massive an amount..."


What I find funny about this is that he seems to know exactly how much [drug] is too much. He's speaking from experience... c-)) c-)) c-))
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Online Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
David Marriott in his office in Seattle (video)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44803004/ns/us_news-life/#.TpfXdHOjLx4


Every one knows the whole mighty PR wurlitzer organ will be a-playing once the motivations report comes out and the case goes to the Supreme Court?

On a deeper note, how this case turns out will be reflected in how the whole country of Italy turns out. People are tired of the corruption of Italian politics. Will Italy turn rightward, or will it reject the policies of the old guard?

I'm looking to big changes all across Europe, not forgetting the U.K.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

What's the deal with JLOL's "LondonJohn"? Seriously.

What have we got there? A unemployed communications engineer in Texas that pretends to be a lawyer while blogging 24/7 from an imaginary private jet parked at Heathrow???

For the longest time I was hoping someone with a decent vocabulary could explain what the FOA were trying to say/ grunt and, when this fellow came along, it looked, at least initially, like Team Knox finally had someone that could string a few (too many) coherent sentences together.

Alas, the poor man appears to be insane. When he's not chastising guilters for being 'emotionally invested' in the case, he's making posts like the one where he revealed that he was considering meeting Amanda's jet at Heathrow in order to offer her a cup of coffee.

When talk turns to the expensive steaks that Matt Lauer treated Curt to in Seattle, guess who just happens to have had a recent business dinner over the exact same meal!

Image

When talk turns to Knox's use of a private jet, guess who just happens to "fly private"!

Image

So, I have to ask, just how crEazy is this 'John Hamilton Lewis' (or whatever) character???


Last edited by Jackie on Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline teabreak


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Michael wrote:
The fact the window was broken from the inside is clear not only due to the lack of glass on the ground below (and yes, the ground below was examined of course...not only for glass, but also for footprints and trod down foliage...there was none), but also its arrangement on the outer sill, signifying it came into contact with a straight outer edge, a barrier. That straight outer edge could only have been the outer shutter. I am not aware whether the inner louvres were examined for micro glass fragments or not, I don't believe so. The examination of those was restricted to fingerprinting and DNA.


Hi Michael, The arrangement of the glass on the outer cill need not be related to coming into contact with the outer shutter they could also signify that the pieces were removed from the lower broken edge of the frame piece by piece to facilitate gaining an arm in through the broken window or a staged version of.



Michael wrote:
It is also worth noting, as it's oft forgotten, that the experts for the defendants also performed examinations of the cottage, both inside and outside. They have never contested the fact of the absence of glass outside the window (one of the few things they've never contested, in fact). I therefore don't see, why others should feel the need to do so.


Like I said I'm new to the evidence. I'm just reading through and asking questions as I see them. I just want you to know I was unsure how a louvred shutter would stop micro fragments of glass from ending up outside and wondered how well the area had been examined as in the motivations it just mentioned that no glass had been found there not to what extent the area had been examined.

Michael wrote:
As for your question of why in staging a burglary they would break the window from the inside, rather then the outside, isn't the answer to that question rather obvious? If they broke it from the outside they may have been seen and they certainly didn't want to be seen. Better to break it from the inside where they could remain hidden.


They may have been seen yes so wouldn't it make more sense to stage this properly from a different window? Now I know the prosecution also state that this is also true of any alleged lone wolf scenario break in through the window but I suppose the argument there is a burglar wants a view from the property so they can see anyone approaching.

Michael wrote:
Moreover, breaking it from the outside would have meant throwing the (large) rock hard upwards and fast over distance..accurately. That would not only have been difficult and dangerous, but extremely noisy.


All I can see in your description here is a basketball player shooting a hoop this is probably after reading about Guede's prior attempts at breaking and entering in the motivations. I have no idea how good a basketball player Sollecito is or Knox at netball. Again if a burglar likes to know if a property is empty before they begin making a lot of noise might be a good strategy.


Michael wrote:
Far quieter to break it from close range from the inside. In addition, breaking it from the inside meant they could keep the outer shutter closed, in order to obscure the broken window from view and to deaden the noise when they broke it.

But since you mentioned micro pieces of glass, it is worth noting that such micro pieces of glass were found in the corridor and living room areas, indicating that they had been shed from someones clothing. For that to have been on their clothing, it meant they would have had to have been very close to the window, rather then outside at distance, when they broke it. Incidentally, none of those micro traces of glass were found in Meredith's room (or the large bathroom).


Michael wrote:
No, these were micro pieces of glass that had fallen from clothing due to proximity to the window when it broke. And in any case, Filomena's bedroom was one of the first places they (the police, Filomena, Raffaele and Amanda) went to. They then toured the rest of the cottage. So, were they responsible for distributing the micro glass, then we would have expected to also see it in the laundry areas, larger bathroom, smaller bathroom, Laura's room and Amanda's room. Instead, it was found only in the limited areas described in my previous post. .


I'm just curious as to how anyone could be sure that "these were micro pieces of glass that had fallen from clothing due to proximity to the window when it broke" unless more micro pieces of glass had been found on their clothing. If not could it not just be pieces crushed to dust under foot in Romanelli's room and coming loose within a few steps?

I'm sorry but so far, to me, the evidence of a staged break in hardly appears conclusive.

Regards

teabreak
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Online Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

teabreak wrote:
I'm sorry but so far, to me, the evidence of a staged break in hardly appears conclusive.

Regards

teabreak


Funny, how the police on the scene felt right from the start it was a staged break in. I guess the micromanagers of PR still feel the need to attack the strongest evidence of Knox's guilt.

Poor Marriott, having to defend Amanda Simpson, er, Knox.
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Offline Frumpycatt


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Hi all,

Just posting a courtesy introduction before I post on this case. Howdy all. Michael, may I post here? I"m the old Frumpycat.

Cheers,

FC
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Frumpycatt wrote:
Hi all,

Just posting a courtesy introduction before I post on this case. Howdy all. Michael, may I post here? I"m the old Frumpycat.

Cheers,

FC



I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
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Offline Frumpycatt


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

I Am Jack's Inflamed Sense of Rejection

Will be quiet til Michael says cool to post. Got some questions.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Frumpycatt wrote:
I Am Jack's Inflamed Sense of Rejection

Will be quiet til Michael says cool to post. Got some questions.



JAQing off again?
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Jackie...The new avatar. Brad Pitt...get that. Whassit mean? Give it me, pal.

You've got Londonjohn dead to rights. Good for a laugh ( I mean snigger ). He's always one better. Steaks in Seattle? HE went to Wolfgang Puck in London. Private jet? Wow. This time last year, he was supposedly driving through Europe..but..OOOOps..he f***ed up in his story. Got all the borders wrong, and the regulations. Posters put him right, but he blithely carries on. Doesn't even have a good imagination. Aaah, how things have changed, since his trot down to the corner store, to get some milk :) And, of course, it's very important, to let everyne know about cricket scores, and all the latest shows he's attended.

MUST let everyone know, the have someone VERY, VERY special amongst them. Appreciate him, G-ddamnit!!! He's a rare bird, I tell you. How blessed JLOL's posters are. What, with jetsetting around, fancy dinners, etceteraah, he still has time to post sometimes 50X a day..........Well, maybe not 50, but it sure feels like it.......boring enough, that the yawns bring tears to the eyes. Works better than a sleeping pill.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:12 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Hello, Frumpycatt. Who are you? I don't believe you've posted before.
If you have, did you use another username? If so, why not your usual one? Those are my questions for now.

I have to say, I'm not a lover of frumpy. Prefer stylish, myself.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

teabreak wrote:
Hi Michael, The arrangement of the glass on the outer cill need not be related to coming into contact with the outer shutter they could also signify that the pieces were removed from the lower broken edge of the frame piece by piece to facilitate gaining an arm in through the broken window or a staged version of.


No. Too orderly, too neat, like they'd just fallen into place and something (the shutter) kept them in an orderly line. Who ever heard of a neat thief in the middle of a burglary? And what's more, if you're going to have to clamber over that sill to get in, the last place you're going to want the glass is on it. Instead, you'd throw or sweep it off with your hand onto the grass below.

teabreak wrote:
Like I said I'm new to the evidence. I'm just reading through and asking questions as I see them. I just want you to know I was unsure how a louvred shutter would stop micro fragments of glass from ending up outside and wondered how well the area had been examined as in the motivations it just mentioned that no glass had been found there not to what extent the area had been examined.



They didn't search outside for 'micro' fragments, they searched for fragments (as in macro). Why would they search outside for micro fragments? The shutters prevented fragments from falling down outside, we don't need to complicate things with things that are irrelevant to the crime scene. And no, you're not new to the evidence or this case.

teabreak wrote:
They may have been seen yes so wouldn't it make more sense to stage this properly from a different window? Now I know the prosecution also state that this is also true of any alleged lone wolf scenario break in through the window but I suppose the argument there is a burglar wants a view from the property so they can see anyone approaching.


I visited this some time ago. In a purely mechanical sense, yes, it would have been much better to have staged it using a different window, the ideal window would have been the kitchen window, but for practical and logical reasons they could only actually do so with Filomena's window. It was important so that it fit with their plan. They couldn't do the windows downstairs or Laura's window as they had bars. The bathrooms didn't have windows. Amanda's and Meredith's windows were just as high and difficult if not more so for any would be burglar. But those two were no good for other reasons also. If they broke Meredith's window, then they couldn't discover in order to call the police, since Meredith's bedroom door had to be locked. It couldn't have been Amanda's window as that would have meant she'd have 'discovered' it immediately on 'arriving' home and would have had to call police immediately. The kitchen window provided the same problem. If that had been broken, it would have been the first thing Amanda would have see on walking through the front door of the cottage and likewise, would have been expected to know something was wrong and call police immediately. As it stood, Amanda arrived home and bumbled around apartment for a considerable time before beginning to 'realise' something was wrong. Even then 'not sure' if there was or not, she went back to Sollecito's instead of calling the police and then asked him to come over to get his 'oipinion' on whether there was something wrong and it was then they 'discovered' Filomena's broken window. In order to fit with that narrative, the window that was broken could not be obvious, so obvious that Amanda would be expected to discovery it immediately on first entering the cottage.

And no, burglars primary concern when breaking into a place is whether people are able to see them, not if they can see people. That's why most break-ins take place at the backs or sides of places.

teabreak wrote:
All I can see in your description here is a basketball player shooting a hoop this is probably after reading about Guede's prior attempts at breaking and entering in the motivations. I have no idea how good a basketball player Sollecito is or Knox at netball. Again if a burglar likes to know if a property is empty before they begin making a lot of noise might be a good strategy.



This is a 6 lb rock, not a basketball, and there is no hoop.

Guede didn't actually have a previous breaking and entry. The kindergarten is the only place where it is known he entered illegally and he didn't break in to there, it had been left open.

Making a lot of noise is not a good idea for a burglar and that is why that isn't the norm in burglaries. As for seeing if anyone's home, ingenious inventions such as doorbells and door knockers tend to fit that role, not 6 lb rocks hurtled through windows.

teabreak wrote:
I'm just curious as to how anyone could be sure that "these were micro pieces of glass that had fallen from clothing due to proximity to the window when it broke" unless more micro pieces of glass had been found on their clothing. If not could it not just be pieces crushed to dust under foot in Romanelli's room and coming loose within a few steps?


No. One had to be close to the window when it broke to get all the micro-spatter from the window as it broke. It's like the shotgun effect where fragments spread out over distance. The further away you are, the less you'll get on you. And no, it wasn't trodden about. As I have explained, it wouldn't have been so selective where it fell...there was none in the small bathroom or Amanda's room, but there was all the way in the kitchen. These people were walking all over the cottage.

By the way, please don't claim you are new to the evidence. It is insulting, especially when your posts rehash tired age old FOAKer talking points that have been repeated over and over these past few years.

And out of curiosity, don't you think you are really stretching logic when you make arguments like 'a giant rock was thrown through the window to see if anyone was home'....'the burglar carefully put the glass on the window sill'...'the burglar made the shot because they were a basketball player' (and guess who that conveniently could be)...all the while, completely ignoring many of the other valid points that demonstrate the burglary was a staging? Do you think we or anyone, is dumb enough to accept arguments like that?

Understand...this is the REAL world, not some fantasy land. In the real world, stupid excuses the nature of 'the dog ate my homework' do not fly. We take this very seriously, please don't insult our intelligence. Thank you.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Frumpycatt wrote:
Hi all,

Just posting a courtesy introduction before I post on this case. Howdy all. Michael, may I post here? I"m the old Frumpycat.

Cheers,

FC



Thank you for having the courtesy to ask. I believe Tuesday (recurring) is the day we've set aside to allow FOAKer visits. So, please feel free to post on Tuesdays. Just please be mindful of the forum rules. Thank you.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Who is this FOAKER ...........Frumpycatt? I want to know. If it's who I think it's who I think it is........

Why is he here? What's the point? Taking up space shouldn't be an option, IMO.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:16 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Well, that's why we've limited their access to Tuesdays, Cape. It's a compromise. If they have anything actually 'new' to present (as opposed to simply repeating old talking points), then they are given the opportunity, whilst at the same time restricted to causing the minimum board disruption. It's about striking a balance between being receptive and open to new opposing arguments and opinions, whilst not allowing them to drag down or dominate the board.

As with all compromises, nobody gets to have it all their own way and that includes those who don't want to see them here at all. PMF is a refuge where the case and its fallout can be discussed in a safe, rational, honest and collegial environment. At the same time, it is never truly an island fully disconnected from the rest of the case discussion landscape and I don't think it should be. To be a haven for rational debate is a good thing...to become an ivory tower is not.

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Offline DoctorRadias


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

I have a query that maybe you guys can answer.

KNox's forthcoming Calannai trail 15 Nov 2011..
Given that she "may" be found guilty, and is not a first time offender.
Calunnia : "blames someone of a crime which he knows is innocent, is punished with imprisonment from two to six years."

If she is found guilty and sentenced to a prison term (over 1 yr to be considered extraditable)

DO you think knox would have any grounds to not be extradited?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

DoctorRadias wrote:
I have a query that maybe you guys can answer.

KNox's forthcoming Calannai trail 15 Nov 2011..
Given that she "may" be found guilty, and is not a first time offender.
Calunnia : "blames someone of a crime which he knows is innocent, is punished with imprisonment from two to six years."

If she is found guilty and sentenced to a prison term (over 1 yr to be considered extraditable)

DO you think knox would have any grounds to not be extradited?


Hi DoctorRadias. Well, if she's found guilty it certainly would be a prison sentence.

Your calunnia definition needs to be expanded a little further. Not only is calunnia to blame someone for a crime one knows to be false, but it MUST also be made in a formal legal setting...such as a formal statement to the police or prosecutor, or under formal questioning by a court judge or in testimony on the stand in court. So, for example, falsely accusing someone of a crime on a blog or in a newspaper/TV interview isn't calunnia, that would be 'defamazione' (defamation).

As for the extradition thing, 'grounds' for resisting it can be subjective. I cannot see any actual technical legal arguments Knox's lawyers could make, but being lawyers, they may attempt to make arguments of the basis of Knox's rights, claims of Italian systemic corruption, claims that she could never have a fair trial due to her notoriety making any conviction unsafe, claims that it's for a crime that is not a crime in the US (although it actually is, just under different names). How successful arguments like that may be will probably depend on whether the extradition hearing is heard by a mate of Judge Heavey's or not.

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Offline DoctorRadias


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Michael wrote:
DoctorRadias wrote:
I have a query that maybe you guys can answer.

KNox's forthcoming Calannai trail 15 Nov 2011..
Given that she "may" be found guilty, and is not a first time offender.
Calunnia : "blames someone of a crime which he knows is innocent, is punished with imprisonment from two to six years."

If she is found guilty and sentenced to a prison term (over 1 yr to be considered extraditable)

DO you think knox would have any grounds to not be extradited?


Hi DoctorRadias. Well, if she's found guilty it certainly would be a prison sentence.

Your calunnia definition needs to be expanded a little further. Not only is calunnia to blame someone for a crime one knows to be false, but it MUST also be made in a formal legal setting...such as a formal statement to the police or prosecutor, or under formal questioning by a court judge or in testimony on the stand in court. So, for example, falsely accusing someone of a crime on a blog or in a newspaper/TV interview isn't calunnia, that would be 'defamazione' (defamation).

As for the extradition thing, 'grounds' for resisting it can be subjective. I cannot see any actual technical legal arguments Knox's lawyers could make, but being lawyers, they may attempt to make arguments of the basis of Knox's rights, claims of Italian systemic corruption, claims that she could never have a fair trial due to her notoriety making any conviction unsafe, claims that it's for a crime that is not a crime in the US (although it actually is, just under different names). How successful arguments like that may be will probably depend on whether the extradition hearing is heard by a mate of Judge Heavey's or not.


has knox not already stated the accusation in a court of law?

Do you think she has any defence against the forthcoming trial?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

DoctorRadias wrote:
Michael wrote:
DoctorRadias wrote:
I have a query that maybe you guys can answer.

KNox's forthcoming Calannai trail 15 Nov 2011..
Given that she "may" be found guilty, and is not a first time offender.
Calunnia : "blames someone of a crime which he knows is innocent, is punished with imprisonment from two to six years."

If she is found guilty and sentenced to a prison term (over 1 yr to be considered extraditable)

DO you think knox would have any grounds to not be extradited?


Hi DoctorRadias. Well, if she's found guilty it certainly would be a prison sentence.

Your calunnia definition needs to be expanded a little further. Not only is calunnia to blame someone for a crime one knows to be false, but it MUST also be made in a formal legal setting...such as a formal statement to the police or prosecutor, or under formal questioning by a court judge or in testimony on the stand in court. So, for example, falsely accusing someone of a crime on a blog or in a newspaper/TV interview isn't calunnia, that would be 'defamazione' (defamation).

As for the extradition thing, 'grounds' for resisting it can be subjective. I cannot see any actual technical legal arguments Knox's lawyers could make, but being lawyers, they may attempt to make arguments of the basis of Knox's rights, claims of Italian systemic corruption, claims that she could never have a fair trial due to her notoriety making any conviction unsafe, claims that it's for a crime that is not a crime in the US (although it actually is, just under different names). How successful arguments like that may be will probably depend on whether the extradition hearing is heard by a mate of Judge Heavey's or not.


has knox not already stated the accusation in a court of law?

Do you think she has any defence against the forthcoming trial?


Yes, she's made the accusation in a court of law, so if that accusation is false, then that's outright calunnia.

As for her defence in the forthcoming trial, her only defence is the defence that she's always used...to assert that her accusations were true. The problem though, for Knox, is that this makes her the accuser. The onus is on the accuser to evidence or prove their accusations against the accused. If they are unable to do that then the accused stands innocent and in this system, it is the accuser that is then guilty....in this case, of calunnia. All Knox has as evidence is her 'word' and that really doesn't count for much, especially when she has one calunnia conviction in this case already.

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Offline DoctorRadias


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Michael wrote:
DoctorRadias wrote:
Michael wrote:
DoctorRadias wrote:
I have a query that maybe you guys can answer.

KNox's forthcoming Calannai trail 15 Nov 2011..
Given that she "may" be found guilty, and is not a first time offender.
Calunnia : "blames someone of a crime which he knows is innocent, is punished with imprisonment from two to six years."

If she is found guilty and sentenced to a prison term (over 1 yr to be considered extraditable)

DO you think knox would have any grounds to not be extradited?


Hi DoctorRadias. Well, if she's found guilty it certainly would be a prison sentence.

Your calunnia definition needs to be expanded a little further. Not only is calunnia to blame someone for a crime one knows to be false, but it MUST also be made in a formal legal setting...such as a formal statement to the police or prosecutor, or under formal questioning by a court judge or in testimony on the stand in court. So, for example, falsely accusing someone of a crime on a blog or in a newspaper/TV interview isn't calunnia, that would be 'defamazione' (defamation).

As for the extradition thing, 'grounds' for resisting it can be subjective. I cannot see any actual technical legal arguments Knox's lawyers could make, but being lawyers, they may attempt to make arguments of the basis of Knox's rights, claims of Italian systemic corruption, claims that she could never have a fair trial due to her notoriety making any conviction unsafe, claims that it's for a crime that is not a crime in the US (although it actually is, just under different names). How successful arguments like that may be will probably depend on whether the extradition hearing is heard by a mate of Judge Heavey's or not.


has knox not already stated the accusation in a court of law?

Do you think she has any defence against the forthcoming trial?


Yes, she's made the accusation in a court of law, so if that accusation is false, then that's outright calunnia.

As for her defence in the forthcoming trial, her only defence is the defence that she's always used...to assert that her accusations were true. The problem though, for Knox, is that this makes her the accuser. The onus is on the accuser to evidence or prove their accusations against the accused. If they are unable to do that then the accused stands innocent and in this system, it is the accuser that is then guilty....in this case, of calunnia. All Knox has as evidence is her 'word' and that really doesn't count for much, especially when she has one calunnia conviction in this case already.



Thanks for your answer Michael.

I'll be interested to see what happens in this trail.. in the event of a custodial sentence

the US\Italy extradition treaty says:
“[w]hen an American citizen commits a crime in a foreign country, he cannot complain if required to submit to such modes of trial and to such punishment as the laws of that country may prescribe for its own people"

Also is it not false accusation?
In the US folk are often imprisoned for False Accusation, so I'm not sure that extradition could be denied on grounds of : "not a crime in the US".

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Yes, it's False Accusation. It can also be argued to be Perjury, Obstructing/Perverting Justice, Wasting Police Time (which are also criminal offences in the US) and Defamation...all in one.

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Jackie...The new avatar. Brad Pitt...get that. Whassit mean? Give it me, pal.

You've got Londonjohn dead to rights. Good for a laugh ( I mean snigger ). He's always one better. Steaks in Seattle? HE went to Wolfgang Puck in London. Private jet? Wow. This time last year, he was supposedly driving through Europe..but..OOOOps..he f***ed up in his story. Got all the borders wrong, and the regulations. Posters put him right, but he blithely carries on. Doesn't even have a good imagination. Aaah, how things have changed, since his trot down to the corner store, to get some milk :) And, of course, it's very important, to let everyne know about cricket scores, and all the latest shows he's attended.

MUST let everyone know, the have someone VERY, VERY special amongst them. Appreciate him, G-ddamnit!!! He's a rare bird, I tell you. How blessed JLOL's posters are. What, with jetsetting around, fancy dinners, etceteraah, he still has time to post sometimes 50X a day..........Well, maybe not 50, but it sure feels like it.......boring enough, that the yawns bring tears to the eyes. Works better than a sleeping pill.


Hello, Cape - my av is a nod to our new friend, "Frumpy" who showed up with what appears to me to be an av depicting Ed Norton in "Fight Club" (one of my faves from the 90's). If Frumpy wants to get all Tyler Durden on us, well... "I am Jack's raging bile duct."

(BTW, I like this idea of 'Troll Tuesdays' - it will help to pass the time until Hellmann cooks up a way to reconcile the irreconcilable!)

As for LJ, I seriously think there's something wrong with him. We've all seen know-it-alls (if the subject is locks, he's Googling away at the minutiae and posting like a retired locksmith in no time; if the subject is the GI tract, he meets with gastroenterologists 3 times per week and considers his opinion on the subject 'well informed'), but LJ appears to be getting progressively worse.

He's writing himself into the script: if the principals in this case dine on expensive porterhouse steaks during a business meeting, so does LJ. If the principals "fly private", so does LJ. If the the principals are landing at an airport near his (imaginary) locale, he thinks he might stop by to offer them coffee.

Kinda sad, actually. I feel a tad mean even mentioning it, but I can't figure out why some of the more intelligent posters on the JREF thread are bothering to seek the amateur opinion of someone that's clearly not well.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
(BTW, I like this idea of 'Troll Tuesdays' - it will help to pass the time until Hellmann cooks up a way to reconcile the irreconcilable!)


Well, the idea isn't for it to be 'Troll' Tuesday, as trolls are never welcome here, rather it's meant to be a day when FOAKers can come on the board and engage in honest, polite, good faith case discussion. Tuesday is not a green light for people to come and troll PMF. I understand you were only using a witty catch phrase, but I thought I'd better clarify as there are those out there that would take you literally.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Frumpycat -

Why do you have two board ID's?:

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=466

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1739

You are aware you are only permitted to have one? Please decide and inform me which one you wish to keep, as I will have to delete the other.

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Offline Frumpycatt


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

I have two id's because when I tried to log in using the username "frumpycat" it stated I was banned. I created a second id "frumpycatt" when I saw this. If possible I would like to revert to the original "frumpycat" which I believe would be a rescinding of the previous ban.

Also:
- While not an FOAKer I do believe in the innocence of AK/RS. I was one of group who thought guilty at start but then did a 180 after other facts came out.
- My cat is frumpy (animal rescue cat) but I am not :D
- I am interested in a rational discourse and will not engage in troll behavior. Although this post is on Sunday I am replying to Michael's direct question and will stick to Tuesday postings unless otherwise dictated.

Cheers,

FC
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

FC, keep the current user name as that's what you've been posting under of late....I'll deactivate the other but retain the posts you made under it.

Just a point...if you were banned before, you shouldn't be creating a new ID and rejoining. If people are banned, it's for a reason. However, I shall make an exception in your case because I have allowed you to post recently and have said you could and you have also displayed honesty, which is an act of good faith. But a note to everyone out there, this really IS an exception...so banned members, please do not be returning and creating sock accounts as I will ban you again.

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Offline donnie

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Michael,
is there a way for me to contact you?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Yes, via PM...as always.

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news ... ts-to.html

"...The PARTNERSHIP between the Knox family and Marriott illustrates the potential of a public relations CAMPAIGN TO SHIFT SENTIMENT — and possibly even INFLUENCE A VERDICT...

Marriott signed on with the Knox family three days after Amanda’s arrest, FOR FINANCIAL TERMS neither side will disclose...

Marriott needed to develop a long-term media STRATEGY…Marriott was left trying to redefine her persona...

in early 2008, Marriott took the publicity CAMPAIGN one step further by persuading Amanda’s lawyers to allow the Knox family to give interviews...

“‘48 Hours’ and ‘20/20’ were better PARTNERS for David Marriott and the Knox family than many other media outlets,” said Barry Mitzman, professor of communication at Seattle University...

Marriott has formulated a media PLAN for the days going forward, but he won’t discuss details. He plans to be ready if the prosecution appeals the acquittal..."




Recall that, at various points in time, "Fisher" has made the following representations:

1) Marriott merely "organizes public appearances for the family" [emphasis added];
2) "Everything you see online is a volunteer effort" [emphasis added];
3) "Marriott's services are voluntary"/ done "without looking for anything in return";
4) Marriott was hired merely to "help schedule interviews";
5) Nadeau's claim that there was a "Seattle message machine" was "outdated tabloid trash that was refuted long ago"; &
6) "The PMF/TJMK talking points being pushed about the so-called 'million dollar' PR firm are completely inaccurate" [emphasis added].

Image


It's also worth revisiting Charlie "MARRIOTT HAS NEVER BEEN A STRATEGIST" Wilkes:
Image

The perpetually stupid LJ is also good for a laugh ("the simple truth is that Gogerty Marriott does not manage the family's PR effort"):
Image
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Well, Michael..It's your board, and you make the decisions. I know how to use the scroll mechanism :)

Banned? And back? You're very gracious, Michael.

Jackie, I have to laugh. You have NAILED LJ. I just don't know how he can up himself anymore. It reminds me of a person I knew. He was HUGE. A really big man. If someone mentioned going to the dentist, he used to be a dentist. And so on. One time, though, we mentioned going to the horseraces. He said he used to be a jockey. Someone said : No, Joseph, you must have been the horse :)

Oh, and as for LJ popping by, to bring some coffee. Sheesh, in keeping with his delusions, I would have thought he'd offer champagne.

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Jackie wrote:
(BTW, I like this idea of 'Troll Tuesdays' - it will help to pass the time until Hellmann cooks up a way to reconcile the irreconcilable!)


Well, the idea isn't for it to be 'Troll' Tuesday, as trolls are never welcome here, rather it's meant to be a day when FOAKers can come on the board and engage in honest, polite, good faith case discussion. Tuesday is not a green light for people to come and troll PMF. I understand you were only using a witty catch phrase, but I thought I'd better clarify as there are those out there that would take you literally.


No doubt!

In any event, I've already got a new avatar ready to go for Tuesday nights:

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

GOOD LORD, Jackie. That's , ummm, in BLACK and WHITE......Really, your post says it all. How embarrassing. These people have zero credibility..on anything they say.

It also makes me wonder what kind of PR company would actually put their MO in print like that. wtf) Sway public opinion? Sure, that's what they do. But to SAY it? The mind boggles. Talk about showing your hand. huh-)

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
Michael wrote:
Jackie wrote:
(BTW, I like this idea of 'Troll Tuesdays' - it will help to pass the time until Hellmann cooks up a way to reconcile the irreconcilable!)


Well, the idea isn't for it to be 'Troll' Tuesday, as trolls are never welcome here, rather it's meant to be a day when FOAKers can come on the board and engage in honest, polite, good faith case discussion. Tuesday is not a green light for people to come and troll PMF. I understand you were only using a witty catch phrase, but I thought I'd better clarify as there are those out there that would take you literally.


No doubt!

In any event, I've already got a new avatar ready to go for Tuesday nights:



:lol:

:lol:

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Well, Michael..It's your board, and you make the decisions. I know how to use the scroll mechanism :)

Banned? And back? You're very gracious, Michael.

Jackie, I have to laugh. You have NAILED LJ. I just don't know how he can up himself anymore. It reminds me of a person I knew. He was HUGE. A really big man. If someone mentioned going to the dentist, he used to be a dentist. And so on. One time, though, we mentioned going to the horseraces. He said he used to be a jockey. Someone said : No, Joseph, you must have been the horse :)

Oh, and as for LJ popping by, to bring some coffee. Sheesh, in keeping with his delusions, I would have thought he'd offer champagne.


Indeed! This is a man who (allegedly) thinks nothing of "flying private" to Paris for a numbered duck at La Tour D'Argent!

A cup of airport coffee?! Mon Dieu!!!
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Yep. He's quite the Bon Vivant. :) Frankly, La Tour D'Argent depends on American tourists for their * numbered ducks*.

It's rather passe, I'm afraid. ( I don't have the accent key on my comp, to have it pronounced passay.)

It's a good thing, Jackie..the * allegedly *. I give it the same truth as Mander's diary. Which is to say........Bull Feathers.

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
GOOD LORD, Jackie. That's , ummm, in BLACK and WHITE......Really, your post says it all. How embarrassing. These people have zero credibility..on anything they say.

It also makes me wonder what kind of PR company would actually put their MO in print like that. wtf) Sway public opinion? Sure, that's what they do. But to SAY it? The mind boggles. Talk about showing your hand. huh-)


Amanzing isn't it?! Ava's post linked us to what, for me, is the most amazing article on the backdrop to this case yet!

There it is, as you say, in black and white.

For all this talk about the JREF priding itself on being an 'evidence-based community', I'll never understand why so many so-called 'skeptics' decided to take the representations of a PR firm at face value.

I'm hard-pressed to think of ANY entity more deserving of the disdainful glare of a true skeptic than a PR firm!!!
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Yep. He's quite the Bon Vivant. :) Frankly, La Tour D'Argent depends on American tourists for their * numbered ducks*.

It's rather passe, I'm afraid. ( I don't have the accent key on my comp, to have it pronounced passay.)

It's a good thing, Jackie..the * allegedly *. I give it the same truth as Mander's diary. Which is to say........Bull Feathers.


I've had the opportunity to meet 2 or 3 members of the class that lives, thrives and survives in the rarefied world that LJ imagines ("flying private", etc.), but none of them - NONE - appear to have the time (or the inclination) to sit around posting 10-20 lengthy, pro-accused comments per day on a blog dedicated to a murder case in which they have no standing/ nothing at stake.

Indeed, the whole POINT of "flying private" is to make the most of your time. One wouldn't sacrifice millions (literally) in order to save up enough spare time to "blog" 24/7 for a middle class nobody from White Center, no matter WHAT she looked like!

But what do I know? I still have to fly with the airlines.

I'll tell you one thing, though: LJ had better ease up on those ducks if he wants to get his thumbs slimmed down to the point where he can write the LSAT.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

LMAO, Jackie. It's not just the LENGTHY posts. Think of all the time spent, GOOGLING the necessary info. co-) G-d, he's good for a larf, that one.

I suppose we shouldn't be naughty. I mean, really. Is there anything sadder, than a grown man, living a life of make believe. sun-)

I feel a novel coming on. * The Number of Ducks, now flying Private *. Btw, anyone else think the title of Rocco's book :

*I'm Coming With you * It's a bit * outre * , no? hump-)

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news ... ts-to.html

"...The PARTNERSHIP between the Knox family and Marriott illustrates the potential of a public relations CAMPAIGN TO SHIFT SENTIMENT — and possibly even INFLUENCE A VERDICT...

Marriott signed on with the Knox family three days after Amanda’s arrest, FOR FINANCIAL TERMS neither side will disclose...


It's amazing HOW the story changes, depending on WHO you read and WHEN you read them, isn't it? Last time I read anything from Marriott, he was claiming he was working pro-bono. Next thing, he's talking about 'exploiting financial opportunities' for Knox. Now, there was an undisclosed fee from the beginning. Not only was that meant to buy good publicity for Knox, but also an innocent verdict!

Those that support Knox don't realise they've been played. The few that do, wanted to be.

We are the bad guys, because we refused to be.

I for one, refuse to have my world defined by what a PR man says it is. For all the open access to information the web offers, we now have to deal with the prospect of not only a bad media but also PR men. It's like three steps forwards, two steps backwards.

We now live in world where the bizarre is considered the norm...where the idea of a burglar firing a 6 lb rock through the front window of a house belonging to people he actually knows 'just to see if anyone is home' is considered to be a completely logical and plausible act.

I suppose it was only going to be so long before we moved from a post modern world to a world of spin...a world where reality is just what anyone says it is, depending on whatever the agenda is.

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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Michael wrote:

FOAKers can come on the board and engage in honest, polite, good faith case discussion.


huff-)) Spoilsport!


;) just kidding

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
capealadin wrote:
Yep. He's quite the Bon Vivant. :) Frankly, La Tour D'Argent depends on American tourists for their * numbered ducks*.

It's rather passe, I'm afraid. ( I don't have the accent key on my comp, to have it pronounced passay.)

It's a good thing, Jackie..the * allegedly *. I give it the same truth as Mander's diary. Which is to say........Bull Feathers.


I've had the opportunity to meet 2 or 3 members of the class that lives, thrives and survives in the rarefied world that LJ imagines ("flying private", etc.), but none of them - NONE - appear to have the time (or the inclination) to sit around posting 10-20 lengthy, pro-accused comments per day on a blog dedicated to a murder case in which they have no standing/ nothing at stake.

Indeed, the whole POINT of "flying private" is to make the most of your time. One wouldn't sacrifice millions (literally) in order to save up enough spare time to "blog" 24/7 for a middle class nobody from White Center, no matter WHAT she looked like!

But what do I know? I still have to fly with the airlines.

I'll tell you one thing, though: LJ had better ease up on those ducks if he wants to get his thumbs slimmed down to the point where he can write the LSAT.



You're so bang on there. My father is one of those types (I stopped counting how many millions it is he has now) and you'd never catch him dead wasting the time to post about anything like this, not unless he felt it could profit him somehow and then it would be a minimum of two comments...a YEAR. Hell, he can't even be bothered to talk to me or any of his other children more then once in ten years and even then, it's we that have to make the effort.

The REAL jet set philanthropists dedicate themselves to mass...grand causes, like Bill Gates (and others) wanting to help Africa...not to one single silly girl that behaved very badly. Note the difference...causes that help hundreds of thousands, or even millions as opposed to at best, one single silly lying woman, at worst, a murdering raping one. What a noble cause...what's Bill Gates thinking of, wasting his time with all those African losers?

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Cape wrote:
It also makes me wonder what kind of PR company would actually put their MO in print like that.



A PR company that realises most people only remember what a PR company says today and not what they said yesterday or the day before..and that what they said today will be forgotten tomorrow when they replace it with whatever they say then.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
For all this talk about the JREF priding itself on being an 'evidence-based community', I'll never understand why so many so-called 'skeptics' decided to take the representations of a PR firm at face value.


Because they're thick. I could have written a long post, but I thought on this occasion a short sentence was all that was required. It's scary really. They represent the so-called 'intelligent' people...that are oh so easy to con. Intelligence is nothing without integrity and wisdom. In fact, without them, it's positively dangerous.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

The only intelligent comment on JLOL, was when a moderator complained about having to read every boring, inane post :)

The two great posters, Fulcanelli and Treehorn were banned. They should wear that as a badge of honour. They were just too good for that lot. Showed them up, good and proper. tt-)

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Cape wrote:
The only intelligent comment on JLOL, was when a moderator complained about having to read every boring, inane post


I remember that post :)

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Offline tailover


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Hmmmm well i never forget that post truth or dare questions perfect and astonishing for me the way of changing story who how and when u study them i thoroughly study the crusial thing is that exploitative and financing advantages its totally new for me that's not way to getting fame and popular for knox
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

How horrible those Italian prisons must be for women ????

Barbie tells us today about a wealthy woman sentenced to 26 years for murder, and enjoyed the prisons so much she refused parole when offered:
Patrizia Reggiani, convicted in 1998 of orchestrating the murder of her ex-husband, Maurizio Gucci, just declined parole. Barbie Latza Nadeau on why she'd rather stay in prison than work

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... rison.html

Guess she did not have a PR supertanker to manage *everything* for her.

As an 'aside':
That JLOL Loudmouth FOAKer who posts 40-50 times a day might have to hire a private jet because he is too fat to fit in the Commercial Airliner seats without removing armrests and being charged double fare :lol:


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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Our man, Stint, is back. Yay...........

I remember the Gucci case well. There was a fantastic book about it. If I remember correctly, Patrizia had a brain tumor. She did it out of jealousy, with her co-hort, who was a sort of witch.

No worries, Stint. LJ would have plenty of room. No-one would want to sit next to that chatterbox. Can you imagine? The poor passenger next to him..while he goes on and on, about digestive issues etc?

Nah, I think he's home alone..popping out for the occasional bottle of milk, at the corner :)

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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Our man, Stint, is back. Yay...........

I remember the Gucci case well. There was a fantastic book about it. If I remember correctly, Patrizia had a brain tumor. She did it out of jealousy, with her co-hort, who was a sort of witch.

No worries, Stint. LJ would have plenty of room. No-one would want to sit next to that chatterbox. Can you imagine? The poor passenger next to him..while he goes on and on, about digestive issues etc?

Nah, I think he's home alone..popping out for the occasional bottle of milk, at the corner :)


Cape, you are such a treat to behold.

Speakin' of books and murders.
I just finished John Follain's book about murder/suicide in Vatican.
Great read.
Lookin' forward to his book about murderess Knox


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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Oh, thanks Stint. I haven't read it . I've read other books on the Vatican. And, they made my hair stand on end. The corruption. Whew...... eee-)
I'm going to read his new book, for sure. I take it I'll see you on Amazon ? :) sun-)

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Online Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

A Psycho-Astrological Perspective on the Relationship of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito

http://manfromatlan.blogspot.com/2011/1 ... ve-on.html
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Is this the type of thing Supertanker Marriott says he is "reviewing"

Casey Anthony: NBC Finds Clever Way Around Paying for Interview

The honchos at NBC -- the C stands for crafty -- think they figured out a way to snag an interview with Casey Anthony without paying a red cent, and make her a wealthy woman at the same time.
We've learned an NBC news producer has reached out to people in the literary world, trying to score a book deal for Anthony. The producer has contacted literary agents and others, telling them if he scored a book deal for Casey, she'd give the network a 1-hour, primetime special ... portions of which would also run on "Today."
The producer makes it clear -- NBC couldn't pay a cent for the interview. But he is gung-ho about the book deal,
even representing that Casey wants up front money.


http://www.tmz.com/


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Online Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
Is this the type of thing Supertanker Marriott says he is "reviewing"

Casey Anthony: NBC Finds Clever Way Around Paying for Interview

The honchos at NBC -- the C stands for crafty -- think they figured out a way to snag an interview with Casey Anthony without paying a red cent, and make her a wealthy woman at the same time.
We've learned an NBC news producer has reached out to people in the literary world, trying to score a book deal for Anthony. The producer has contacted literary agents and others, telling them if he scored a book deal for Casey, she'd give the network a 1-hour, primetime special ... portions of which would also run on "Today."
The producer makes it clear -- NBC couldn't pay a cent for the interview. But he is gung-ho about the book deal, even representing that Casey wants up front money.


http://www.tmz.com/


I wouldn't be surprised if the Melloxes already got money under the table for that Lifetime movie, funnelled through Marriott.
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Offline donnie

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Michael wrote:
Yes, via PM...as always.


I have no access to PM's, remember?
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

We are in a bit of a lull as far as news goes. A bit of OGGI fluff for you to fill the news-less void: this article is already one week old. Just don't take it as fact and take it for what it is: entertainment, or, as some might say, "murdertainment". ;)

My corrected version of the Google translation. Although not perfect, it's a bit better than the original Google.

Amanda Knox, everything about her second life
True freedom for the American girl, however, is still far off: hounded by reporters and television, lives in hiding for now. While talking about her business millions

by Alessandro Penna

In Seattle, every day has three seasons: autumn mist rises at dawn, the morning sun that seems to explode in August, the night is already a taste of winter. Rain falls, above all, and pulls a strong wind. Westlake Park, the parlor of downtown, is filled with tents and indignados, because the crisis was a massacre here, too: the police watching them sing and march, the [Occupy Wall Street] protest remained peaceful, colorful. The Sounders in the mountains, the local football team, win lots of games, with the peripheral participation of an Italian American who studied at Harvard, Michael Fucito. The newspapers have already stopped talking about Amanda Knox, the "daughter" back home a week ago from an Italian prison. And Amanda Knox does not know all of this.

A STAR WELCOME – Because, when she landed here, she had received a welcome fit for a star but also bad news: she's still in prison. A mobile prison without bars: a freedom and constant vigilance. To escape the siege of paparazzi, arrived in droves from Los Angeles and England, has changed five times refuge, avoiding the home of her mother and her father's house and found asylum with relatives and friends in the neighborhood that has seen her grow up and in a remote location in the mountains of the Olympic Park.

AWAY FROM WINDOWS - She has avoided windows, hiding in the interior gardens, where they could not dare to take photos: "I do not want photos, celebrity that has cascaded on me it hurts, makes nervous," says her sister Deanna . "She lives hidden behind closed doors, though she is not a fugitive on the run, a witness to be protected," the indignant friend Tom Wright, who did not use metaphors when he wrote the screenplay with director Francis Ford Coppola's Godfather III. The British tabloids have put a tag on the information on the whereabouts of Foxy Knoxy: 8 thousand pounds expect anyone that gives information on where she sleeps, where she is holed up. Says the Seattle Times reporter Jonathan Martin: "I have called a dozen times, and each time got the voicemail ... But I do not know where she is, nor do I want to know." The four local networks showed an unusual respect for the privacy of the famous compatriot: "We will stay away until she wants to talk. Now she has to rest, rebuild her life," says Bob Branom, Kiro TV reporter.

THE FAMILY AND SHAREHOLDERS VANISH - American television giants, ABC, NBC, CBS, instead went straight to the penny, by raining offers of six zeros on the desk of the spokesman David Marriott ("I lost count of the requests," he says ), waits for a response (by favored and superstitious ABC: "We have not closed anything, it will be a long race," resigned Nikki Battiste, producer). The controversies popping up (and spit) like geysers: speculation of media about who would make a poor girl a million dollar investment. That of Knox’s family, however, is not greed, but need to balance budgets. The family fortune has plummeted: her grandmother Elisabeth has taken out a loan of $ 250,000 and spent it on lawyers throughout the settlement; father Curt, who has recently found work at the Seattle Opera, has seen $ 700,000 disappear from his bank account; mother Edda and stepfather Chris Mellas have squandered a figure even higher. In all, they've gone into debt more than two million dollars.

ANONYMOUS AT ALL COSTS - "Amanda has the urge to thank everyone who helped to get her out of prison, spending a fortune, and wants to give back both love and money to those who helped ," says a friend who prefers to remain anonymous. It is a frequent request, one of anonymity, a necessary condition. The girl asked for the strictest confidence. Also for security reasons. Because along with promises of wealth, came the death threats. By letter, by phone, via email. Steve Moore, a former FBI agent who joined the Knox family during the process in Perugia and spent time organizing the anti-paparazzi and -stalkers measures, he judges it’s amateur stuff , but dangerous: "They are fanatics, but in these cases you can not take anything lightly," he says. “In comparison to some night calls, the sadism of some letters, the folk protest of Peggy Ganong, a neighbor in West Seattle, who runs a ‘guilty’ Blog and makes noisy patrols that pass swiftly the Mellas’ house, is almost funny."

RAINS OFFERS - The offers, then, are rich and varied. The fastest of all to deliver indecent proposals was Steven Hirsch, Vivid's boss, a company specializing in pornographic films: "We would like Amanda to become our spokesperson. She would not have to undress, we do not ask her to show even an inch of her skin. We simply present our events, " he told American newspapers, earning a nice little 'free advertising’. The radio Kqmv would rather have her as a disc jockey, and has allocated $ 10,000 a week. The communication experts calculate the overlap in the 50,000 minimum for a session. But what they call big money, the true loot, comes from publishing and Hollywood.

TWO MILLION FOR A DIARY - The publishing house Simon & Schuster have offered two million dollars to print from the prison diary of Knox. The malicious say that Amanda might be induced to copy the strategy of Jaycee Dugard, California girl who has lived a nightmare equal to that of Natascha Kampusch. Kidnapped in 1991, Dugard has been saved 18 years (and two daughters) later. Once free, she had remained silent for almost two years. Then, when the expectations (and price) were at their best, she gave an interview to ABC, and her book quickly became the best-selling autobiography published (with a title that fits Amanda well: Life Stolen). Knox, with her writing, is already well under way: she has written a couple of hundred pages, came from Perugia along with boxes of journals.

CLOONEY WANTS TO MAKE A FILM - If the novel is in its inception, the script for a possible film coincides with the record and is already ready. In contention, there would be three bids. The first is for sure: he has made it clear in very difficult times, British director Michael Winterbottom. The other two are, for now, only two voices and concerns of Hollywood heavyweights Steven Spielberg, who has probed the ground with a family friend of Knox, and George Clooney, were to emerge, it would become a kind of punish-Mignini in service permanently active. The star, in fact, has already taken the rights of the ‘Gently Rolling Hills of Blood’, the true crime novel and investigation of the Monster of Florence case, in Perugia, where the prosecutor is secondary character and embarrassing.

LOOKING FOR NORMALCY- And Amanda? She is in a bubble where she tries to recuperate, the old gestures, normality. She knows nothing of the millions, the controversy of Clooney. Avoids the newspapers, uses the Internet with infinite caution, remains faithful to old-fashioned correspondence, to prison pastimes: writing long letters, reading books. Eats Italian (pizza, lasagna), struggling to regain possession of English, even twenty hours straight sleep, dreams; for now, climbing on Mount Rainier.

THE PROTECTION OF HER EX – Enjoys seeing the twins grow, cousins who were one year old when she went to jail and now they're going to go to elementary school. Friends and family will not leave her alone for a second. Two former boyfriends are at her side as brothers and guardians: DJ, the boy with whom she broke off before landing in Perugia, who is now a truck driver, and James, a musician, who follows her everywhere. Assures that her friends often think of Raffaele ("He'll be reacting like me?") And that she misses Don Saul, the prison chaplain. Pending a freedom without paparazzi likes to crush, symbolically, the old limits: "Her cell was five feet long: it had a population of seven, walking as if they drank every step and you feel free," says a friend.

WANTS TO RETURN TO STUDY EARLY - Amanda will soon give a big crowded party and extinguish the candles on cakes to make up for four of the birthdays spent in prison. And as soon as output from mixing adrenaline and sleep again slows down, as soon as the army of paparazzi leaves, she wants to return to the University. She wants to continue her studies of Italian, but stay with Moravia and Montale and delay a degree in English Literature, it would be a waste of time. And time she, Amanda, has already wasted enough.

OGGI


Last edited by guermantes on Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Meredith Kercher family: We won’t take cent from Amanda Knox

By NICK PARKER
Published: Today

The dad of murdered Meredith Kercher yesterday vowed never to accept a penny from freed Amanda Knox.

John Kercher blasted Knox's bid to profit from Meredith's death with book and film deals.

Attachment:
John Kercher.jpg


[...] But Mr Kercher, 68, stressed they were not seeking any financial gain.

He explained that their civil claim — and an £8million damages award made when Knox was convicted — were symbolic in Italian law.

He said: "I find it distasteful that Knox stands to make millions from what happened to Meredith. I don't think anyone should make money out of it — not us, not them. [...]


THE SUN


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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Thanks, Guermantes..always finding articles that I normally can't.

Lots of twists and turns still to come. One thing's for sure. Amanda is forever tainted. Most people are horrified, that an innocent person was imprisoned, his reputation and income destroyed. It goes to the shockingly bad character of Ms. Knox.

As Casey Anthony is reviled, so is Amanda Knox. So many similarities. The lying, blaming innocent people.....etc. Believe me, it will always be in people's minds. The destruction she caused to her well liked boss. Who did nothing, except help her. Foakers can try and white wash her all they want. The picture of a lying, destructive, callous human being, will never go away.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

donnie wrote:
Michael wrote:
Yes, via PM...as always.


I have no access to PM's, remember?



No, because you abused the PM system Donnie so I withdraw your PM privs. You should still be able to PM Admins though.

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Michael wrote:


No, because you abused the PM system Donnie so I withdraw your PM privs. You should still be able to PM Admins though.


Well, I can't. Is it possible for you to make it available for just a little while sometime tomorrow? I just want to write you one PM and I won't write anyone else.
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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
In any event, I've already got a new avatar ready to go for Tuesday nights:



Me too
Attachment:
oh no.jpg


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

It seems Bruce Fisher is coming out with ANOTHER book. co-) Oh, well, if at first you don't succeed, try, try try again ss)

Don't need t be a fortune teller, to know how this one will end up. Same old, same old. How many peple now, trying to make a buck ? eee-)

Now, Follain's book. Yes. He's a very good author. He's not writing books, and selling furs on the side. I guess the fur business isn't doing too well. So, the thught process must be : * I know, I'll write a book *...It's a hell of a leap, very lemminglike. Especially, as it's gonna be a loooong way down...to nowhere :)

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Offline teabreak


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Hi Michael, thanks again for taking the time to answer my queries.


Michael wrote:
No. Too orderly, too neat, like they'd just fallen into place and something (the shutter) kept them in an orderly line. Who ever heard of a

neat thief in the middle of a burglary? And what's more, if you're going to have to clamber over that sill to get in, the last place you're going to want the glass is on it. Instead, you'd throw or sweep it off with your hand onto the grass below. .


Yes I agree the glass was neat, however I once had an engine stolen out of a garaged car and the thief laid all the parts they disconnected neatly along the slam panel and bulkhead so I am not going to discount it purely on the grounds it was neat. But it is strange that it doesn't appear displaced at all during alleged access through the window.

Michael wrote:
And no, you're not new to the evidence or this case.


Michael wrote:
By the way, please don't claim you are new to the evidence. It is insulting, especially when your posts rehash tired age old FOAKer talking points that have been repeated over and over these past few years.


Up until the appeal decision just three weeks ago I have never bothered to look up any of the evidence or arguments on either side of the case. Since then I have found the translated motivations report (and still not found the time to read past page 129) here on your board and the plan is to use that as a basis for deciding what facts are real evidence opposed to just media gossip on either side.

Obviously in searching for evidence and information online I also found the injustice site and read SOME of the arguments against the prosecution case there. Which I might say, if nothing else, appear to go into much more detail arguing and explaining the points raised by the prosecution during the trial and included in the motivations but I would like to see any counters to these by the prosecution also. It is also well laid out and easy to follow for those new to the case.

I don't know if Knox and Sollecito are guilty or not!

But I am prepared to question EVERYTHING from EITHER side in order to draw a conclusion.

I am well aware the majority on this board feel there is enough evidence to convict them, however the court has just changed it's mind and released them and it is from that point in time that I have come to view the evidence but I will say I am quite prepared to find them guilty if the evidence presents itself. If you feel you can assist me in finding that evidence then I am willing to listen.

Michael wrote:
I visited this some time ago. In a purely mechanical sense, yes, it would have been much better to have staged it using

a different window, the ideal window would have been the kitchen window, It couldn't have been Amanda's window as that would have meant she'd have 'discovered' it immediately on 'arriving' home and would have had to call police immediately. The kitchen window provided the same problem. If that had been broken, it would have been the first thing Amanda would have see on walking through the front door of the cottage and likewise, would have been expected to know something was wrong and call police immediately. As it stood, Amanda arrived home and bumbled around apartment for a considerable time before beginning to 'realise' something was wrong. Even then 'not sure' if there was or not, she went back to Sollecito's instead of calling the police and then asked him to come over to get his 'oipinion' on whether there was something wrong and it was then they 'discovered' Filomena's broken window. In order to fit with that narrative, the window that was broken could not be obvious, so obvious that Amanda would be expected to discovery it immediately on first entering the cottage.


I am unsure about when the alleged staging took place. However If both Knox and Sollecito are involved then what was stopping them using the kitchen window to stage the break in and then being completely prepared for calling the police on the first visit to the cottage. Why was it neccessary for Knox to return to the cottage and leave before returning again and calling the police? I cannot determine the need for them to do this. Surely any attempted clear up or staging was carried out immediately after the crime. They didn't go home and sleep on it did they?


Michael wrote:
And no, burglars primary concern when breaking into a place is whether people are able to see them, not if they can see people. That's why most break-ins take place at the backs or sides of places..


Agreed but their secondary consideration is to have an escape plan and plenty off warning should they be about to be compromised.

Michael wrote:
This is a 6 lb rock, not a basketball, and there is no hoop. ..


No, It was just the image conjured up by way of your description. I'm having trouble confirming the weight of the rock could you quote your source please?

Michael wrote:
Guede didn't actually have a previous breaking and entry. The kindergarten is the only place where it is known he entered illegally and he didn't break in to there, it had been left open.


What about the tiny hammer of the type found in buses to smash windows, the police found in his possesion at the kindergarten. He hadn't used it only because he didn't have to.

What about the legal office, located in via del Roscetto 3, Perugia? Where on the night between Saturday October 13 and Sunday October 14, 2007. The thief or thieves had entered through a first floor window whose panes had been smashed with a rather large stone stealing amongst other items a laptop.

and Guede was found in possesion of the stolen laptop which he claimed he bought in Milan? You are telling me that you believe Guede bought this laptop in Milan and this is not just, and I quote a "stupid excuse from fantasy land"

Michael wrote:
Making a lot of noise is not a good idea for a burglar and that is why that isn't the norm in burglaries. As for seeing if anyone's home, ingenious inventions such as doorbells and door knockers tend to fit that role, not 6 lb rocks hurtled through windows.


Some people quite rightly will not answer their door when home alone and not expecting visitors, no self respecting thief would rely on that as an indication that a house is empty. Now a rock through your window, that you would not ignore!

Michael wrote:
No. One had to be close to the window when it broke to get all the micro-spatter from the window as it broke. It's like the shotgun effect where fragments spread out over distance. The further away you are, the less you'll get on you. And no, it wasn't trodden about. As I have explained, it wouldn't have been so selective where it fell...there was none in the small bathroom or Amanda's room, but there was all the way in the kitchen. These people were walking all over the cottage.


If this is the case that this micro glass came from the clothing then surely there would still have been glass particles recoverable from that clothing? Can you point me to this evidence in the motivations report please? I couldn't see it but havent had the time to study it thoroughly.


Michael wrote:
And out of curiosity, don't you think you are really stretching logic when you make arguments like 'a giant rock was thrown through the window to see if anyone was home'....'the burglar carefully put the glass on the window sill'...'the burglar made the shot because they were a basketball player' (and guess who that conveniently could be)...all the while, completely ignoring many of the other valid points that demonstrate the burglary was a staging? Do you think we or anyone, is dumb enough to accept arguments like that?

Understand...this is the REAL world, not some fantasy land. In the real world, stupid excuses the nature of 'the dog ate my homework' do not fly. We take this very seriously, please don't insult our intelligence. Thank you.


You keep quoting this micro glass from clothing as a valid point that demonstrates the burglary was staged yet I have still to come across it in the motivations. Apart from any tiny glass particles that could not escape the louvred shutters, could you point out what other valid points there were?

It would appear to me that the logic is stretched on both sides of the argument. You mention the defences poor logic and excuses but what about the prosecutions?

You agree with the courts reasoning that the difference between Guede's prior break in's and this one is he didn't know the occupants and therefore it is highly unlikely to have been him breaking in at the girl's?

And that Guede a man with no source of income bought the laptop stolen from the legal office in Perugia while visiting Milan?

You are happy with Guede's initial excuse after being placed at the murder scene of "a big boy did it and ran away"

Please then use your intelligence by paying attention to poor logic on both sides of the arguments in the case.


Thank you


Last edited by teabreak on Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Online Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

JREF seems to be trucking along, but I have had quite a few visits since my last article was posted http://manfromatlan.blogspot.com/2011/1 ... ve-on.html , about 150 pageviews. Click on comments to see the debate.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Kerchers say report of Amanda Knox suit is bogus
by LINDA BYRON / KING 5 News, NWCN.com
Posted on October 24, 2011 at 5:42 PM, updated yesterday at 6:52 PM
http://www.nwcn.com/home/?fId=132500858 ... main=10212


"There have been reports circulating around the globe that the family of murdered British student Meredith Kercher are planning a $12 million lawsuit against Amanda Knox and her family.
Today, Lyle Kercher, brother of the slain student, said that the reports are false.
“I can assure you that it’s absolute nonsense,” Kercher said. “I’m not even sure where these fantastical ideas come from sometimes." "
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Offline RoseMontag


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Ergon wrote:
JREF seems to be trucking along, but I have had quite a few visits since my last article was posted http://manfromatlan.blogspot.com/2011/1 ... ve-on.html , about 150 pageviews. Click on comments to see the debate.


I was going to comment again today but the comments seem to be now closed???
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Offline RoseMontag


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
It seems Bruce Fisher is coming out with ANOTHER book. co-) Oh, well, if at first you don't succeed, try, try try again ss)

Don't need t be a fortune teller, to know how this one will end up. Same old, same old. How many peple now, trying to make a buck ? eee-)

Now, Follain's book. Yes. He's a very good author. He's not writing books, and selling furs on the side. I guess the fur business isn't doing too well. So, the thught process must be : * I know, I'll write a book *...It's a hell of a leap, very lemminglike. Especially, as it's gonna be a loooong way down...to nowhere :)


I have thought about writing a book just devoted to the various blogs and discussion boards on this case, with contributions and essays from both sides. Would you be interested in contributing? Mine would be free and available on the web, probably on my docstoc page.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

I don't know exactly who Alfredo Mantovano is, but he seems very critical of the media campaign and even of the 2 judges. It seems that opinions are still strong about the outcome of the appeal trial.

http://www.lunico.eu/2011102552772/este ... orteq.html
http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/regioni/ ... 29380.html
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Offline RoseMontag


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

max wrote:
I don't know exactly who Alfredo Mantovano is, but he seems very critical of the media campaign and even of the 2 judges. It seems that opinions are still strong about the outcome of the appeal trial.

http://www.lunico.eu/2011102552772/este ... orteq.html
http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/regioni/ ... 29380.html


Seems to be a former Magistrate and Deputy Minister according to the second article. I don't agree with him on the appeal not arguing the case on the merits. It seems he is simply making a political statement defending Italy's system of justice as compared to the US (death penalty).
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Online Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

RoseMontag wrote:
Ergon wrote:
JREF seems to be trucking along, but I have had quite a few visits since my last article was posted http://manfromatlan.blogspot.com/2011/1 ... ve-on.html , about 150 pageviews. Click on comments to see the debate.


I was going to comment again today but the comments seem to be now closed???


I checked just now, it's open. I don't see any outstanding comments awaiting moderation, and I've accepted and replied to every one so far.
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Online Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

RoseMontag wrote:

I have thought about writing a book just devoted to the various blogs and discussion boards on this case, with contributions and essays from both sides. Would you be interested in contributing? Mine would be free and available on the web, probably on my docstoc page.


That's a wonderful idea. I like that you'd present both sides. A commercial book/movie would only do one side, and be geared to a polarized audience.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

RoseMontag wrote:
capealadin wrote:
It seems Bruce Fisher is coming out with ANOTHER book. co-) Oh, well, if at first you don't succeed, try, try try again ss)

Don't need t be a fortune teller, to know how this one will end up. Same old, same old. How many peple now, trying to make a buck ? eee-)

Now, Follain's book. Yes. He's a very good author. He's not writing books, and selling furs on the side. I guess the fur business isn't doing too well. So, the thught process must be : * I know, I'll write a book *...It's a hell of a leap, very lemminglike. Especially, as it's gonna be a loooong way down...to nowhere :)


I have thought about writing a book just devoted to the various blogs and discussion boards on this case, with contributions and essays from both sides. Would you be interested in contributing? Mine would be free and available on the web, probably on my docstoc page.


Well, I wouldn't mind reading a book written by you, Rose, as I haven't found you to be a liar, or to deliberately misrepresent things. Now, do I think that you've looked at things, sometimes, with * Rose * coloured glasses ? :) Yes.

Understandable, as both sides are passionate in their belief. Would I contribute? Well, to be honest, Rose, I'm a bit particular in the company I keep. And, there are certain posters, who are beyond the pale. I wouldn't want to share any kind of space with them. Mind you.....including * them * could provide shock and awe, disgust, twisted humour, bestiality, etc. Those sort of things could spell best seller. I guess.

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

jhansigirl wrote:
Jackie wrote:
In any event, I've already got a new avatar ready to go for Tuesday nights:



Me too
Attachment:
oh no.jpg


It's perfect, J-girl! Use it! Tuesday is upon us!
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

RoseMontag wrote:
...
Seems to be a former Magistrate and Deputy Minister according to the second article. I don't agree with him on the appeal not arguing the case on the merits...


I don't agree with you not agreeing with him.



Last edited by Jackie on Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline RoseMontag


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Ergon wrote:
RoseMontag wrote:
Ergon wrote:
JREF seems to be trucking along, but I have had quite a few visits since my last article was posted http://manfromatlan.blogspot.com/2011/1 ... ve-on.html , about 150 pageviews. Click on comments to see the debate.


I was going to comment again today but the comments seem to be now closed???


I checked just now, it's open. I don't see any outstanding comments awaiting moderation, and I've accepted and replied to every one so far.


Thanks, looks fine now, I did add a comment.
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Offline RoseMontag


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
RoseMontag wrote:
capealadin wrote:
It seems Bruce Fisher is coming out with ANOTHER book. co-) Oh, well, if at first you don't succeed, try, try try again ss)

Don't need t be a fortune teller, to know how this one will end up. Same old, same old. How many peple now, trying to make a buck ? eee-)

Now, Follain's book. Yes. He's a very good author. He's not writing books, and selling furs on the side. I guess the fur business isn't doing too well. So, the thught process must be : * I know, I'll write a book *...It's a hell of a leap, very lemminglike. Especially, as it's gonna be a loooong way down...to nowhere :)


I have thought about writing a book just devoted to the various blogs and discussion boards on this case, with contributions and essays from both sides. Would you be interested in contributing? Mine would be free and available on the web, probably on my docstoc page.


Well, I wouldn't mind reading a book written by you, Rose, as I haven't found you to be a liar, or to deliberately misrepresent things. Now, do I think that you've looked at things, sometimes, with * Rose * coloured glasses ? :) Yes.

Understandable, as both sides are passionate in their belief. Would I contribute? Well, to be honest, Rose, I'm a bit particular in the company I keep. And, there are certain posters, who are beyond the pale. I wouldn't want to share any kind of space with them. Mind you.....including * them * could provide shock and awe, disgust, twisted humour, bestiality, etc. Those sort of things could spell best seller. I guess.



Appreciate the kind words, cape.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

BTW, Rose,

If you just use Londonjohn's contribution, why, you could have a Trilogy, at the very least. :lol:

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Offline RoseMontag


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
BTW, Rose,

If you just use Londonjohn's contribution, why, you could have a Trilogy, at the very least. :lol:


Just think if I had both LJ and Zorba contributing, I would probably need a volume IV. Just a thought. The case itself has been covered in so many books already, I think something on the discussion of the case would be interesting and different.
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

RoseMontag wrote:
capealadin wrote:
BTW, Rose,

If you just use Londonjohn's contribution, why, you could have a Trilogy, at the very least. :lol:


Just think if I had both LJ and Zorba contributing, I would probably need a volume IV. Just a thought. The case itself has been covered in so many books already, I think something on the discussion of the case would be interesting and different.


We get it Rose.

You admit that L J is indeed very, very long winded as Cape cleverly notes
But you find necessary to counter that Zorba also puts up some lengthy posts.

May I suggest a few distinct differences that make Cape's point much more valid and your counter decidedly less accurate.
1) Zorba does not ever put up 50 of the trilogy worthy posts in a single day as LJ has done.
2) Zorba does not ever put up 30 trilogy worthy posts in a single day as L J often does.
Conclusion: Cape's point is well taken, and yours, although typically quick and witty, lacks factualfoundation

Additionally, the comparison is flawed because Zorba does not have what might be categorized as deep psychological defects and 'hang ups' that motivate him to obsessively:
1) Inevitably include a snarky rude impolite opening and or closing personal attack on anyone who disagrees with him. (Albeit thinly disguised as pertaining only to argument if the disagreeing poster is a JREF member)
2) Derive a sick personal pleasure out of ridiculing anyone disagreeing (and only those disagreeing) by making a big deal if there is a typo or even a controversial use of a hyphen.
3) Endlessly pontificate about subjects with a sickening authoritative pompous know it all condescending style that is about as attractive as fecal matter in the meatball bowl.
(This is particularly shallow and annoying when a quick check of Google on the subject shows this to be the real source of his cut n pasted pontificated "knowledge".
4) Require a suspicious sock puppet style list of 'newbies' who do nothing but pop up to tell him how wonderful everything about him is.
5) Refuse to *ever* admit error regardless of how obvious.
6) When shown to be unequivocally wrong, use #1 and 2 above, along with obfuscation, pedantic parsing and/or quick subject change with challenging gauntlet style (new subject) questions to deflect acknowledgement of error.
7) Repeatedly categorize everyone everywhere in the entire universe who dare hold opposing views as idiots, morons and sundry other grade school simpleton insults.

The book idea about the lengthy and contentious blogs is indeed one that merits consideration, and has been floated previously.
However, based on the number of posters who have expressed their opinions of the above JREF content from some posters there by simply leaving JREF, may I suggest that without omitting much of the above, you might have to also have that book self published.
Finally, without the thousands of offending posts of the nature I cite above, it might be more of a mini pamphlet than even a very thin single volume book.
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Offline Frumpycatt


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Hi all,

Quick question concerning the anticipated prosecution's appeal to the supreme court:

- If Mignini's appeal fails (November 10th?) could that automatically derail the prosecution's appeal? Or would Comodi, etc. still be able to move forward although short a prosecutor (Mignini)?

- Is Mignini's appeal in November? And even if his appeal fails, like AK and RS having three chances its not a done deal...he can still appeal to the Supreme Court and hold his prosecution position til then?

Thks...apologies in advance...not going to be able to respond to questions quickly - crazy busy today.

FC
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Offline RoseMontag


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
The book idea about the lengthy and contentious blogs is indeed one that merits consideration, and has been floated previously.
However, based on the number of posters who have expressed their opinions of the above JREF content from some posters there by simply leaving JREF, may I suggest that without omitting much of the above, you might have to also have that book self published.
Finally, without the thousands of offending posts of the nature I cite above, it might be more of a mini pamphlet than even a very thin single volume book.


No self publishing necessary, I'll probably put it up as a word document on my docstoc page. Free to those who are interested.
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Offline RoseMontag


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:36 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Frumpycatt wrote:
Hi all,

Quick question concerning the anticipated prosecution's appeal to the supreme court:

- If Mignini's appeal fails (November 10th?) could that automatically derail the prosecution's appeal? Or would Comodi, etc. still be able to move forward although short a prosecutor (Mignini)?

- Is Mignini's appeal in November? And even if his appeal fails, like AK and RS having three chances its not a done deal...he can still appeal to the Supreme Court and hold his prosecution position til then?

Thks...apologies in advance...not going to be able to respond to questions quickly - crazy busy today.

FC


I would think the prosecutor of the appeal trail would be responsible for the appeal to the SC and not Mignini. Perhaps one of the Italian legal experts can answer this one.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

RoseMontag wrote:
Frumpycatt wrote:
Hi all,

Quick question concerning the anticipated prosecution's appeal to the supreme court:

- If Mignini's appeal fails (November 10th?) could that automatically derail the prosecution's appeal? Or would Comodi, etc. still be able to move forward although short a prosecutor (Mignini)?

- Is Mignini's appeal in November? And even if his appeal fails, like AK and RS having three chances its not a done deal...he can still appeal to the Supreme Court and hold his prosecution position til then?

Thks...apologies in advance...not going to be able to respond to questions quickly - crazy busy today.

FC


I would think the prosecutor of the appeal trail would be responsible for the appeal to the SC and not Mignini. Perhaps one of the Italian legal experts can answer this one.


In a common law jurisdiction, prosecutors amount to little more than interchangeable civil servants. I'd be surprised to find the Italian system was substantially different in this regard.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

I wonder why the so-called "skeptics" at the JREF don't confront "Fisher" when he misleads them.

First "Fisher" claims that "Marriott's services are voluntary"/ done "without looking for anything in return" and limited to "help[ing']" the family "schedule interviews." (scroll up for screen shots)

Then we're treated to the truth (http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news ... ts-to.html) and, rather than admit that he made intentional misrepresentations, "Fisher" turns around and implies that MARRIOTT is the culprit!

Image

Which one is the liar, Rose, Marriott or Fisher???


Last edited by Jackie on Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:00 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

The board says it's Wed Oct 26, 2011. The time now is 4:50 am. "Black Tuesday" is over. Goodbye Rose and other FOA types. You have posted enough today. Nothing of any substance, unfortunately (or fortunately?), just platitudes. I still think it's a bad idea to open the forum doors to these "guests" and invite them in. Most of us just ignore them, since they add nothing of value to people seeking information on the case, and, moreover, the "resident trolls" hurt the reputation of this board. Just my opinion.

max wrote:
I don't know exactly who Alfredo Mantovano is, but he seems very critical of the media campaign and even of the 2 judges. It seems that opinions are still strong about the outcome of the appeal trial.

http://www.lunico.eu/2011102552772/este ... orteq.html
http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/regioni/ ... 29380.html


Thanks for the links, Max. These days, I specialize in improving Google translations. :D Here comes the translation of Mantovano's statement from one of your links, with more to follow in another post.

"If the trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito had been held in any U.S. state, those two young people would be on death row in some prison awaiting their turn to receive a lethal injection." Says Alfredo Mantovano, a former Magistrate and Deputy Minister, interviewed by the weekly ‘À’. The secretary attacks the aggression unleashed by the U.S. media. "It was unacceptable – he notes - their attempt to give us lessons. They have never criticized the case on its merits, instead they have tried to put in the dock those who led the first investigation [Mignini?]. And to defend Amanda coming to accuse of kidnapping [?] without understanding that the information obtained in the first degree was sharp, heavy. "Mantovano was also critical of the choices made in the appeal process. "For a case with media attention so delicate and so strong - he explains - we are judging the specific experience and instead two judges were found that have no expertise in criminal law: Claudio Pratillo Hellmann, the president of the Court, and Massimo Zanetti, from the Civil court section. Respectable Magistrates, but without any experience of major criminal trials. It is as if to referee the biggest game of the series. A referee would not be called more capable and more experienced, but a judge, probably great, but having experience only in provincial fields, can not know how to react to the pressure of eighty thousand spectators.”


In a country that prizes "bella figura" and considers soccer a national religion, soccer (and food) analogies are ubiquitous... :)

By a curious coincidence, Alfredo Mantovano is an MP from Puglia. It took me five minutes to pull up his CV:

Quote:
Born January 14, 1958 in Lecce. Married with three children.

XVI Legislature - Member since April 14, 2008, elected in the district of Puglia. Secretary of the Interior from May 12, 2008, with responsibility for public security, President of the Commission on protection programs for witnesses and collaborators of justice, Anti-racket Commissioner, the Commissioner on the victims of the Mafia and the Commissioner on missing persons. He is part of the Bureau of the People of Freedom Party (Popolo della Libertà; PdL) from March 27, 2009, the day of its establishment.

Since February 2011, national coordinator of the Circles of New Italy, an association that is recognized in the PdL and whose chairman is the mayor of Rome Gianni Alemanno.

A freelance journalist since 1984.

Degree in Law at the University La Sapienza in Rome in 1981.


Alfredo Mantovano CV

Alfredo Mantovano website


Last edited by guermantes on Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Alfredo Mantovano - Books and Publications


Last edited by guermantes on Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

"Amanda and Raffaele were there, says DNA"

October 6, 2011

The advisers of the prosecutors in the trial for the death of Meredith Kercher wrote an article in Fatto Quotidiano

Things happen at least in the vicinity of the original process Kercher, especially after the acquittal of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. In this case, it happens that Giuseppe Novelli and Emiliano Giardina, consultants for the prosecution at the trial, write a newspaper article in Fatto Quotidiano to confirm the validity of the evidence rejected by the Court of Appeals. The piece, which occupies an entire page of the newspaper Padellaro e Travaglio, in itself is news. As it says even more:

Recent developments regarding the process and the sentence for the murder of Meredith Kercher have generated among the public the conviction that the biological evidence, especially based on the analysis of DNA, could lead to diametrically opposed opinions among specialists. It is not true. [...] It is equally certain there are traces of Knox's DNA found on the knife and Raffaele Sollecito on the hook of the bra. To determine the invalidity of such evidence, in the process, have been invoked improbable and absurd phenomena (contamination), lacking scientific legitimacy. While it is understandable that this represents the last resort for the defenders in an attempt to delegitimize the value of the evidence, it is unacceptable that it is blindly supported in part by impartial experts appointed by the court. We believe that there is no need to prepare a geneticist to understand the unsustainability of such claim.

The experts begin by disputing the opinions of the defense:

In particular it was argued that Raffaele Sollecito's DNA on the clasp of Meredith's bra comes from contamination. This hypothesis is pure fantasy. It is clear that the contamination must have a source and destination. The destination is the hook of the bra, but the source? If the hook in Meredith's room had been contaminated with DNA from Sollecito, then it means that Sollecito's DNA was present in that room, representing an additional incriminating evidence. But remember that there was never found another trace of Sollecito in that room. In the forensic laboratories, there has never been a contamination in those days (hundreds of exhibits were analyzed and none of them was the suspect DNA, negative controls performed exclude this hypothesis), no experiment has ever produced profile of Sollecito's DNA, which appears only in this finding. The DNA is not created out of thin air, it doesn't fly, it is on the hook because it was transferred by direct contact. This is the only possible explanation for the lack of alternatives.

Then they discuss the evidence of the knife:

Knife found in the house of Raffaele Sollecito, traces of Amanda's DNA are on the handle and traces of Meredith's DNA are on the blade. Clearly, the value of this test does not lie in the traces of DNA on the handle, the transfer of which is plausible since Amanda visited the house of Raffaele, but the traces of Meredith on the blade. Interestingly and paradoxically, the hypothesis of contamination has been invoked here only on the blade; the handle, according to the "experts", has provided reliable results. But not the blade, the DNA found on the blade is a result of contamination! Here, too, are given the same considerations that apply to the hook [of the bra]. There is no source of contamination, and indeed all laboratory tests will confirm with absolute certainty, the absence [of contamination]. But how could it be possible to contaminate only one point, only the blade and only with the DNA of the victim? And the other, the hook, only one point, only once and with Sollecito's DNA?

And the question of the disputed amount of DNA found:

When you leave traces, it is as a phenomenon that happens randomly and often accidentally: not determined a priori, leaving the DNA! In this case, the police examined what they found. The assessment must be done retrospectively, i.e. after the analysis. In all the processes of DNA evidence it is used, because reliable, valid and objective. The problem of contamination has been known for years, and there have been procedures and protocols adopted in time to avoid this disadvantage and to verify its presence. The whole world is affected by issues related to this problem, the old process, the beginning of the DNA introduction as evidence in the nineties, when we had the necessary experience.

Conclusions:

We therefore reiterate with determination, confidence and belief that the results of the analysis carried out in this process are valid, useful and usable and that the work of forensic scientists [experts?] has in no way undermined the validity of these tests. Ultimately we believe it right to recall that the sense of responsibility and professional ethics must be part of the office of those who practice the profession of consultant or expert. At times, a consultant must conscientiously state his inability to perform technical analysis if he does not possess those skills and tools necessary to report back to the court and perhaps use the opportunity to integrate the results by turning to external laboratories (including foreign) just to provide all the necessary information. This was not done by the appointed experts: 1) a new trace of DNA was not analyzed because it was deemed low volume (but there are dozens of laboratories in the world today in a position to do so), 2) no statistical analysis was done to provide substantial support to the data that comes from the realization of experiments and [...] on the conclusions that are obtained from the data.

It will be interesting to know what they think, of what is written by two experts of the defense. Meanwhile, there is yet another short-circuit in the justice-media relationship in this strange country that is Italy.

Giornalettismo
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:53 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Hi Jackie,

if possible, could you please resize the image/screenshot attached to your post above? The image is too large and blows the sides of the forum margins. It makes it difficult to read with wide margins. Thanks. :)
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:00 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Hi Jackie,

if possible, could you please resize the image/screenshot attached to your post above? The image is too large and blows the sides of the forum margins. It makes it difficult to read with wide margins. Thanks. :)


Hi G. - Is that better?
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news ... ts-to.html

“‘48 Hours’ and ‘20/20’ were better PARTNERS for David Marriott and the Knox family than many other media outlets,” said Barry Mitzman, professor of communication at Seattle University..."


What part of the word "PARTNERS" does "Fisher" not understand?

Check this out:
Image

Is "Fisher" trying to imply that Marriott had nothing to do with the infamous "48 Hours" bit?!!

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Way too many sites copy their news stories off others and just regurgitate from each other. Isn't that what journalism is nowadays, making up stories for buzz without providing any new details? Read below:

Knox’s Ex-Boyfriend Breaks Silence

October 26, 2011

So much for keeping a low profile: Amanda Knox’s Italian former boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, has broken his silence for the first time since they were both acquitted of murdering Meredith Kercher. In an interview with the Italian weekly Oggi, Sollecito claims he and Knox speak on the phone every day. “We need each other,” he tells the weekly. “We spent four years in a circle of hell, we suffered unspeakably and it ruined our lives.” [...]

Sollecito also said he gladly accepted Knox’s invitation to visit her in Seattle. “I could go at any moment—I really want to see her again, to speak with her and look into her eyes.”


THE DAILY BEAST

Source: THE DAILY MAIL (if you can stomach it)

This is the link to a piece published in Oggi: OGGI

Google translation will follow soon. :)


Last edited by guermantes on Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Jackie wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Hi Jackie,

if possible, could you please resize the image/screenshot attached to your post above? The image is too large and blows the sides of the forum margins. It makes it difficult to read with wide margins. Thanks. :)


Hi G. - Is that better?


Thanks Jackie. Yes, it's perfect! The smaller the font, the better the chance that Bruce Fisher's message will get lost amidst other jumbled messages and under the layers of complex lies.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Way too many sites copy their news stories off others and just regurgitate from each other. Isn't that what journalism is nowadays, making up stories for buzz without providing any new details? Read below:

Knox’s Ex-Boyfriend Breaks Silence

October 26, 2011 12:01 AM

So much for keeping a low profile: Amanda Knox’s former Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, has broken his silence for the first time since they were both acquitted of murdering Meredith Kercher. In an interview with the Italian weekly Oggi, Sollecito claims he and Knox speak on the phone every day. “We need each other,” he tells the weekly. “We spent four years in a circle of hell, we suffered unspeakably and it ruined our lives.” [...]

Sollecito also said he gladly accepted Knox’s invitation to visit her in Seattle. “I could go at any moment—I really want to see her again, to speak with her and look into her eyes.”


THE DAILY BEAST

Source: THE DAILY MAIL (if you can stomach it)

This is the link to a piece published in Oggi: OGGI

Google translation will follow soon. :)

Sigh. There goes my hope that at least he would have learned something in those 4 years in jail. Learned how to shutup and understand that this was about an innocent girl who got brutally murdered. We will never hear a word about Meredith from those two I am afraid. I still picture how cool RS was, even on the last day of the trial, when hearing his acquittal. Way too cold. Never an outcry about his 'innocence', never any anger towards Rudy (the guy who according to him accused them falsely). The guy gives me the creepies. At least, I hope his daddy took away his knife collection...yikes...:(
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

max wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Way too many sites copy their news stories off others and just regurgitate from each other. Isn't that what journalism is nowadays, making up stories for buzz without providing any new details? Read below:

Knox’s Ex-Boyfriend Breaks Silence

October 26, 2011 12:01 AM

So much for keeping a low profile: Amanda Knox’s former Italian boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, has broken his silence for the first time since they were both acquitted of murdering Meredith Kercher. In an interview with the Italian weekly Oggi, Sollecito claims he and Knox speak on the phone every day. “We need each other,” he tells the weekly. “We spent four years in a circle of hell, we suffered unspeakably and it ruined our lives.” [...]

Sollecito also said he gladly accepted Knox’s invitation to visit her in Seattle. “I could go at any moment—I really want to see her again, to speak with her and look into her eyes.”


THE DAILY BEAST

Source: THE DAILY MAIL (if you can stomach it)

This is the link to a piece published in Oggi: OGGI

Google translation will follow soon. :)

Sigh. There goes my hope that at least he would have learned something in those 4 years in jail. Learned how to shutup and understand that this was about an innocent girl who got brutally murdered. We will never hear a word about Meredith from those two I am afraid. I still picture how cool RS was, even on the last day of the trial, when hearing his acquittal. Way too cold. Never an outcry about his 'innocence', never any anger towards Rudy (the guy who according to him accused them falsely). The guy gives me the creepies. At least, I hope his daddy took away his knife collection...yikes...:(



Yes, it's creepy...but this visit might also be about getting the different stories straight before the big interview, book deals etc., I suppose?

Raffaele: 'We need to speak and write to each other to try and understand what happened to us and to look forward to a future that appeared broken forever but instead we can still build on.
'We have so many things to say to each other.'

Btw I think it's true what Cape said above, publishing the diaries would be safer. But somehow I believe Amanda can't resist the limelight and probably wants to tell her story live and herself, sooner or later.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

And one does not seem to blame the other. In case there was any doubt about equal participation in the murder. This kind of behavior confirms it.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Is this to perpertrate the Romeo and Juliet myth? Talk about sleight of hand. The theory that guilty defendants will turn on each , put to bed by this show of solidarity. It remains to be seen, if Papa will allow his son, to go anywhere soon. Especially near La Strega. There would have to be big bucks involved, methinks.

So, six days together, one murder. A hell of a recipe for long lasting love. Maybe, he's in a contest with Rocco. Who can look in Amanda's eyes the longest?

Personally, a more boring couple I have yet to hear. I can see it now. The SHOW!! Tearful lovers re-united. Talk about stomach churning.

On a lighter note. Brucie seems to be in rather a snit. It would seem, Marriott takes the prize. tt-) I mean, it's so unfair. There was Brucie, spinning himself br-)) into all those contortions, lying through his teeth, setting up a pathetic blogsite, cozzing up to third rate reporters, and what thanks does he get? Curt saying that Marriott was the best thing to happen.

And, to think, Brucie was defending Marriott. All that pro bono stuff. And now? Well, Brucie says PR firms exaggerate. ( lie?) eee-)

That the products we see on infomercials don't really work well. So, Marriott is like an onion chopper, or something?

So, Brucie, for all that, gets a thanks, in a blanket statement...* Thanks to all the supporters *. nw)

Well, there you go then. Good thing Brucie wasn't hoping to get fame or fortune, or anything :) He did this solely from the goodness of his heart. I know he's really grateful to Marriott, and knows, with out that PR firm, why, Manders and Raffie would still be in prison.

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
...
On a lighter note. Brucie seems to be in rather a snit. It would seem, Marriott takes the prize. tt-) I mean, it's so unfair. There was Brucie, spinning himself br-)) into all those contortions, lying through his teeth, setting up a pathetic blogsite, cozzing up to third rate reporters, and what thanks does he get? Curt saying that Marriott was the best thing to happen.

And, to think, Brucie was defending Marriott. All that pro bono stuff. And now? Well, Brucie says PR firms exaggerate...


Yet the self-proclaimed "skeptics" don't hold "Fisher" to account for his misrepresentations re Marriott.

I've always found it odd that the JREF set reserved their "skepticism" exclusively for police and prosecutors.

The blood relatives of the accused and their PR people were NEVER doubted and NEVER dismissed - even when caught making demonstrable misrepresentations.

I can't think of a single entity more deserving of "skepticism" than a PR firm.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

teabreak wrote:
Yes I agree the glass was neat, however I once had an engine stolen out of a garaged car and the thief laid all the parts they disconnected neatly along the slam panel and bulkhead so I am not going to discount it purely on the grounds it was neat. But it is strange that it doesn't appear displaced at all during alleged access through the window.



We aren't talking about an engine, consisting of parts the thief may later decide they want or need or a place that isn't in the intruders way (what would you have expected the thief to do, sling the parts all the way across place, nice and noisy like?), but instead a very narrow and thin window ledge that the intruder is supposedly hanging from and is then supposed to have to physically clamber over in order to gain entry. It is ridiculous to suggest that they are going to deliberately lay all the glass pieces out on the sill. Not only were they laid out 'neatly', but so they were all touching each other in the position they would have been whilst in the window. It is even more ridiculous to suggest that said intruder then hauled himself in over that glass, not only not knocking any of it off onto the ground, but not even disrupting its positioning. The glass was just laying there, it wasn't superglued to the ledge.

teabreak wrote:
I am unsure about when the alleged staging took place. However If both Knox and Sollecito are involved then what was stopping them using the kitchen window to stage the break in and then being completely prepared for calling the police on the first visit to the cottage. Why was it neccessary for Knox to return to the cottage and leave before returning again and calling the police? I cannot determine the need for them to do this. Surely any attempted clear up or staging was carried out immediately after the crime. They didn't go home and sleep on it did they?


Because it would have been practically impossible for Knox not to have seen the broken kitchen window more or less immediately on opening the cottage front door (which she open by the way). In which case, she would have been expected to immediately call the police. 1) Knox did not want to call the police. 2) Knox wanted a legitimate 'innocent' excuse to be pottering around the cottage for a long time and be able to offer a believable story as to why it took her such a long time to realise something was seriously amiss. 3) She also needed to be able to have a 'believable' excuse to then go and get Sollecito and bring him to the cottage and have him potter around it, instead of calling the police immediately.

Therefore, the staging needed to be hidden away in a room (not hers) where she would be able to 'discover' it later, but not be expected to discover it right away.

As for why it was necessary to do this, it was because 1) To create an appearance of innocence...of 'innocently discovering' the crime. If she had discovered it immediately, it may have looked suspicious, too convenient, if she discovered it immediately. 2) She needed an opportunity to make last minute additions and examinations of the staging and partial clean-up under the clear light of day, rather then the darkness of night/early morning and artificial lighting. It therefore would have been unfortunate if one of the housemates suddenly returned home, caught her faffing about and demanding why she's messing about instead of calling the police or them to report the obvious crime that has taken place. 3) She needed to be able to 'legitimately and innocently' blunder all over the crime scene so she could contaminate it. 4) She needed to be able to get Sollecito to come over so he too could 'legitimately and innocently' blunder all over the crime scene and contaminate it. 4) Last but not least, they wanted to have one of the other housemates (Filomena was selected, as she was the only option that day) go over the cottage (contaminate it themselves) and make the decision to make the call to the police, so that she would then start off as their primary focus...to spread the heat if you like. That couldn't have happened if what Knox was immediately confronted with at the cottage would have immediately required her to contact the police right away.

I'm not sure all the staging and partial clean-up would have been done right away. That infers they would have immediately formulated a clear and complete plan immediately. Since Meredith's murder wasn't premeditated, that is highly doubtful. They may have in haste done one or two things having a basic idea, but I'm sure while back at Sollecito's they must have thought on reflection..."Damn, we should have done this and that as well, as that would have made it more convincing" and "Are we certain we didn't leave this or that which might directly point to our involvement?". The temptation to return to the cottage to improve on the staging and ensure they had made no obvious mistakes would have been irresistible...and they had a good many long hours facing that temptation, all the while with more ideas and worries occurring to them. Also, as I said I above, I think to check how things looked under the cold light of day rather then artificial light would have been a need.

teabreak wrote:
Agreed but their secondary consideration is to have an escape plan and plenty off warning should they be about to be compromised.


Primary considerations always outweigh secondary considerations. This is why break-ins traditionally take place around the back or side of places. No burglar of any kind of savvy is going to break into a place a via the front in full view of the main road, the front gate, overlooking apartments and an overlooking car park, especially when it also involves loudly smashing a window with a giant rock and then mountaineering halfway up the front of the building, all with their back to said list of things. And it's worth pointing out, if nobody sees or hears you, which would have been the case if the intruder broke in through the kitchen window, then you will have reduced the likelihood that you'd ever 'need' to escape by a good 90%. The only chance of being caught then is if one of the housemates returned home and actually caught him while he was in there. But since he would have already been inside at that point, it makes little difference whether he'd have gone in through front or back...and there would have been little point in his 'escaping' in any case since the housemates all new him and so would have recognised him.

teabreak wrote:
No, It was just the image conjured up by way of your description. I'm having trouble confirming the weight of the rock could you quote your source please?


It was in the the trial testimony and forensic reports. You'll find it in the Massei Report somehwere (also the Micheli Report).

teabreak wrote:
What about the tiny hammer of the type found in buses to smash windows, the police found in his possesion at the kindergarten. He hadn't used it only because he didn't have to.


What about it? A hammer is useful for lots of things, it's a generic tool. Just because its original purpose was for breaking bus windows doesn't mean Guede had it for breaking windows. You don't need a special hammer to break a window in any case, any hard implement will do. No specialised tool required.

teabreak wrote:
What about the legal office, located in via del Roscetto 3, Perugia? Where on the night between Saturday October 13 and Sunday October 14, 2007. The thief or thieves had entered through a first floor window whose panes had been smashed with a rather large stone stealing amongst other items a laptop.

and Guede was found in possesion of the stolen laptop which he claimed he bought in Milan? You are telling me that you believe Guede bought this laptop in Milan and this is not just, and I quote a "stupid excuse from fantasy land"


What about the legal office? What, that legal office that had its window broken with a rock rather then a bus window hammer? I'm not sure where you got the stone was 'large' from. As far as I'm aware, it wasn't compatible in size and weight to the one at the cottage. It was also a rear window as I recall. Oh, and it was also a professional job. The burglar alarm was disabled. Guede was no pro. He also went there to apologise to the owners for having the stolen property and to assure them that he'd bought them in good faith. Not really the actions of a guilty person. People buy, knowingly and unknowingly, stolen goods all the time. That's why things are stolen in the first place, mostly so they can be sold to other people for cash. Guede's hardly going to tell the police who he really bought the laptop off and grass them up, is he? Besides a couple of items stolen from the office, there is nothing connecting Guede to the burglary. There is no confession, no witnesses, no forensic evidence (and we know Guede leaves lots), no evidence of any kind. I do find it interesting that despite the long list of evidence against Knox and Sollecito, people will claim there is not enough evidence against them for a conviction, yet these very same people are quite happy to convict Guede of breaking into the office when there is no evidence he did so at all and he has been neither charged nor tried for it. Just thought I'd point out the double standard.


teabreak wrote:
Some people quite rightly will not answer their door when home alone and not expecting visitors, no self respecting thief would rely on that as an indication that a house is empty. Now a rock through your window, that you would not ignore!


In which case, they shout back 'through the door' who is it? They don't have to open the door. 'No self respecting thief would rely on knocking on a door to see if someone's home?' Throwing giant rocks through windows to do so is standard practice is it? Perhaps you can give us some case examples. Then I might believe you. Until then, I'll consider it so much risible nonsense.

teabreak wrote:
If this is the case that this micro glass came from the clothing then surely there would still have been glass particles recoverable from that clothing? Can you point me to this evidence in the motivations report please? I couldn't see it but havent had the time to study it thoroughly.


No. It doesn't stick. It would have worn off the clothing quite quickly. In any case, it is not known what clothing the trio were wearing the night of the murder and whether they dumped it or not (we know Rudy dumped his). The stuff about the glass was in the forensics report, not the Massei Report, I believe. Frank used to have it on his site. Yummi (a member here and on the copy PMF) may be able to tell you where you can find it.


teabreak wrote:
You keep quoting this micro glass from clothing as a valid point that demonstrates the burglary was staged yet I have still to come across it in the motivations. Apart from any tiny glass particles that could not escape the louvred shutters, could you point out what other valid points there were?


Well, as I recall it, Judge Massei wrote a whole section on the staged break-in carefully detailing all those valid points. Perhaps it's better that you read that instead of asking that I simply repeat what has already been written and is a matter of public record.

teabreak wrote:
It would appear to me that the logic is stretched on both sides of the argument. You mention the defences poor logic and excuses but what about the prosecutions?


Such as?

teabreak wrote:
You agree with the courts reasoning that the difference between Guede's prior break in's and this one is he didn't know the occupants and therefore it is highly unlikely to have been him breaking in at the girl's?


No, because I don't see it having been demonstrated that Guede actually did commit prior break-ins. Innuendo and mere accusations does not evidence make. The court is merely theorising on that count, that 'if' he had committed the break-in at the office (it doesn't accept that he certainly did, how can it when he's never been convicted of it), there were certain differences (and not only what you mention). The point of it was to discard the defence argument that these where signature crimes. The judge was simply trying to point out they were not and that it was not at all clear that they were committed by the same person and the defence argument was quite weak and tenuous.

teabreak wrote:
And that Guede a man with no source of income bought the laptop stolen from the legal office in Perugia while visiting Milan?


He'd been working until very recently. People like to 'assume' he had no assets, but I've seen no evidence supporting that assumption. Guede had quite a lot of expensive things, that he'd bought while he'd been working. He also received state benefits. And, if your strapped for cash, aren't second hand items exactly what you're going to buy rather then less affordable new ones? Just sayin'. And if you go round any unemployed person's home, you'll find they've got all sorts of things...TV's, stereos, VCR's, DVD players, Playstations, computers...even electricity and running water. Far from the vision of bare floorboards, a single cheap table and chair, mattress on the floor and a half used candle. Many of these people have these things without having had to resort to crime. Amazing, but true.

teabreak wrote:
You are happy with Guede's initial excuse after being placed at the murder scene of "a big boy did it and ran away"


No. And I don't appreciate the straw man.

teabreak wrote:
Please then use your intelligence by paying attention to poor logic on both sides of the arguments in the case.


I'm not the one that needs to. I, am not the one arguing that standard practice for a burglar to see if anyone is home it to lob a giant rock through their window, or that a burglar is gong to carefully place glass on a window sill they need to clamber over and then magically do so without disturbing it, or that mountaineering up the face of a building in full view of the world so 'one has an escape route' is the logical thing to do.

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

donnie wrote:
Michael wrote:


No, because you abused the PM system Donnie so I withdraw your PM privs. You should still be able to PM Admins though.


Well, I can't. Is it possible for you to make it available for just a little while sometime tomorrow? I just want to write you one PM and I won't write anyone else.



Email me. shiner @ gmail.com.

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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Jackie, note how the worms will turn, and are doing so. One can feel the bitterness, of some. They were expecting to be hailed as heroes. Oh, noes. They forgot who they're dealing with.

Of course, they MUST ignore all their leader's misrepresentations. There's an agenda to follow. They must stick with the program. It's really transparant..and quite sad.

It's a numbers game. A Shell game. Quantity not quality. I don't think they even read each other's psts, that much. They wait, for advocates of justice for Meredith to pop up..then they gather for the rumble. It's really what they are desperate for. It's nothing but scream-type, a way to insult, as obviously they have been in their lives.

So, they plug their ears, and go lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalal. Their forum is the only place where, for awhile, they THINK they're important, and clever. Ignorance is bliss, and they're happily clueless.

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
This is the link to a piece published in Oggi: OGGI

Google translation will follow soon. :)


I see this non-news is all over the net already, delivered in enough different ways to please just about everyone on the planet. The (imperfect) Google translation seems to say something about the "mystery of the gray coat". We all know that Oggi is an "innocentisti" mouthpiece for pat phrases that we aren't required to believe.

Raffaele Sollecito: "Soon I'm going to see Amanda."He reveals the mystery of the coat ...
"We need each other," says the boy from Puglia in an exclusive interview, now wearing the same jacket which was part of the case file. Find out why ...

Updated: October 25, 2011

Raffaele Sollecito speaks exclusively to Today: "I’ll certainly go and see Amanda in Seattle. It was she who invited me. I accepted with joy. It does not mean that it will be at Christmas. I could go earlier -- I could go at any moment. I want to see her again, to talk, to look into her eyes. "

FIRST EVER STATEMENTS - The weekly ‘Today’(Oggi), on newsstands on Wednesday, some public confidence in the Apulian boy acquitted on appeal and accused by the prosecution to have killed, along with American girlfriend, poor Meredith Kercher. These statements are his first ever since his release from prison.

"WE NEED EACH OTHER" - Raffaele says: "We speak to each other on the phone and write to each other every day, we need each other both to try to understand what happened and to look ahead, towards a future that seemed broken forever but which we can now rebuild. We have so many things to say to each other, after spending four years in a circle of hell that has crushed us, it has brought untold suffering, it has ruined our lives."

THE MYSTERY OF THE COAT - Reminder to Today during the interview wearing a gray coat lined with fur. The same coat Amanda Knox was wearing November 3, 2007; when the forensic surveys were being performed in the house on Via della Pergola, Amanda and Raffaele were waiting at the door. She was cold, he took off his jacket, put it on her, embraced her. Raffaele wanted to wear the same jacket during his meeting with our journalist because that garment is “planted” evidence [?] and "tells" about the carelessness with which the investigations were conducted.

WHAT A MESS! - Marco Quintavalle, who owns a supermarket in Perugia, said that the day after the murder of Meredith, Amanda appeared in the early morning in his store to buy bleach (to wash away the traces, was the implication). The prosecutor Mignini asked what Knox was wearing. Quintavalle did not hesitate: "A gray coat," he said. Maybe the shopkeeper, who showed up to testify a year after the death of Mez, had seen the photo of the November 3, and got confused, mixing up memories and newspaper clippings. Why has Amanda never had a coat: "She hates them," says Raffaele.


OGGI
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Did you miss yesterday's documentary? People in the UK can now watch "Amanda Knox: The Untold Story" in its entirety online for free on channel5.com

http://www.channel5.com/demand5

Amanda Knox: The Untold Story

Very unfair that those living outside the UK can't view it... :(
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Amanda Knox’s Former Lover Speaks

Breaking his silence for the first time since he was acquitted of murdering Meredith Kercher, Raffaele Sollecito hints that he wants to rekindle his relationship with Amanda Knox.

By Barbie Latza Nadeau
Oct 26, 2011 2:03 PM EDT

THE DAILY BEAST

More from the Ministry of Gossip: THE DAILY MAIL

Hi all, just wanted to say don't believe the rumors; it's all rubbish. bricks-)
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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Any predictions about whether the Big Bucks from Amanda's upcoming Marriott managed money grubbing will get divided........ errrr....amicably??

Will waving a few bucks under noses bring out the 'real' relationships among the Mellox menagerie??

Especially since.......
Curt says *his* idea to hire Marriott was best move ever
Curt has a documented record of being rather reluctant to send even agreed upon support payments to Edda and her Boy Toy.


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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

guermantes wrote:
Amanda Knox’s Former Lover Speaks

Breaking his silence for the first time since he was acquitted of murdering Meredith Kercher, Raffaele Sollecito hints that he wants to rekindle his relationship with Amanda Knox.

By Barbie Latza Nadeau
Oct 26, 2011 2:03 PM EDT

THE DAILY BEAST

More from the Ministry of Gossip: THE DAILY MAIL

Hi all, just wanted to say don't believe the rumors; it's all rubbish. bricks-)

It certainly is. There is nothing to say so lets make up some stuff. Here is more gossip which says the opposite. Weird.

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebri ... nox-dumped
Quote:
AMANDA KNOX DUMPED!

The family of AMANDA KNOX's Italian boyfriend has pulled the plug on their romance, shattering her plan to marry him and start a family, insiders say.

Sources in Italy tell The ENQUIRER that Dr. Francesco Sollecito – the father of Amanda’s lover Raffaele, 27 – wants him to forget the 24-year-old American beauty and start a new life with a woman from his own country.

“Amanda is crushed,” an insider told The ENQUIRER. “She’d invited him by e-mail to come visit her at her home in Seattle and was expecting him for Christmas.”

But according to a source close to the Sollecito family, Raffaele’s father said: “I’d prefer that he finds a good Italian girl from among his circle of friends here.”
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

((Somewhat off-topic, but not too much, since it's about a 'murderer'))

stint7 wrote:
Speakin' of books and murders.
I just finished John Follain's book about murder/suicide in Vatican.
Great read.
Lookin' forward to his book about murderess Knox


Hi stint, I too bought The City of Secrets, but haven't started reading it yet. At the moment reading Aldous Huxley's Grey Eminence, hoping to learn more about Marriott's modus operandi (just kidding). Not a casual book, but a good one, full of fascinating details. Recommended for history buffs like myself. :)

Also planning to read John Follain's book about Carlos the Jackal. I know, it's one of his older books, but it has now been reprinted (July 2011). I was able to take a quick peek inside yesterday at my local bookshop. A carefully-researched, well-referenced and indexed book.

Jackal: The Complete Story of the Legendary Terrorist, Carlos the Jackal by John Follain
Publisher: Arcade Publishing; Reprint edition (July 1, 2011)
Attachment:
Carlos the Jackal-av.jpg

Here is a synopsis taken from a random website:

Quote:
From his birth in Venezuela to his capture … in the Sudan, the life of Carlos 'the Jackal' has been an extraordinary one. Raised in a radical family, he was sent to London as a teenager in an attempt by his father to remove him from his early radical activities and friends who were seen as a bad influence. He subsequently studied in Moscow, before going to Beirut in 1969, with the avowed intention of becoming a terrorist. His subsequent career involved murders in Britain, France and Germany, culminating in the kidnapping of 11 OPEC ministers in Vienna in 1975. Carlos' career as a terrorist ranged across the whole range of the terrorist decades of the '70's and '80's and made him the world's most wanted, famous, recognizable, and yet seemingly elusive killer.


I didn't know he studied in Moscow. :shock: By they way, Carlos is currently on a hunger strike in La Santé Prison in Paris (read HERE if interested).

Cheers, G.


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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Good depictional cartoon, Stint. Mind you, the Italians will be going for their share, believe me :)

Hmmm, Amanda hates coats. I'd like to see anyone survive a day in the Seattle winter without one. Oh, I see. Such a free spirit, she doesn't like to feel tied down in anyway. Pshaw.

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Book review:

Death in Perugia: The Defintive Account of the Merdith Kercher Case by John Follain – review
A detailed retelling of the Meredith Kercher case by a journalist involved from the start makes for a gripping read
Tobias Jones, guardian.co.uk, Thursday 27 October 2011 11.37 BST

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oc ... ain-review
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Good depictional cartoon, Stint. Mind you, the Italians will be going for their share, believe me :)

Hmmm, Amanda hates coats. I'd like to see anyone survive a day in the Seattle winter without one. Oh, I see. Such a free spirit, she doesn't like to feel tied down in anyway. Pshaw.


Well, she wears quite a few coats for hating them. Remember the famous green verdict coat?
Then there was also a new grey one during the appeal...
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Jackie, note how the worms will turn, and are doing so. One can feel the bitterness, of some. They were expecting to be hailed as heroes. Oh, noes. They forgot who they're dealing with...


Yes, it really does seem like there are 2 factions at play.

According to SB, Marriott is Curt's guy and clowns like "Fisher" belong to Chris Mellas.

Looks to me like there's a bit of turmoil on the subject of which father deserves credit/ which PR hack deserves credit.

I wonder how this will play out if/ when big $$$ enters the picture...

If there's enough discord to spark a squabble over who deserves the credit, there might well be a squabble over who gets what share of the proceeds from the interview/ book/ movie deal(s)...

$$$ changes everything


Last edited by Jackie on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

stint7 wrote:
Any predictions about whether the Big Bucks from Amanda's upcoming Marriott managed money grubbing will get divided........ errrr....amicably??

Will waving a few bucks under noses bring out the 'real' relationships among the Mellox menagerie??

Especially since.......
Curt says *his* idea to hire Marriott was best move ever
Curt has a documented record of being rather reluctant to send even agreed upon support payments to Edda and her Boy Toy.


I suppose there will be no discord when it comes to returning people to the financial position they would have been in but for the defense effort.

However, when it comes to apportioning any $$$ above and beyond their expenses, there might well be some trouble in paradise.

(Some contend that Curt and Chris are not exactly on good terms. Indeed, AK might have plans of her own for that $$$.)

In any event, I sincerely hope that the Kerchers decide to go after every penny of it. IMHO, the RD standard afforded AK a break that will not be repeated under the much easier to satisfy civil standard (balance of probabilities/ 'more likely than not').
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

We can expect EDDA to be front and foremost, for the $$$'s. A tough cookie, with tears of ice. Her Mum, Mrs. Huff, already pleading poverty....and, Chris will be whingeing about noving to Perugia, and Mamma Mia, moving to Perugia, and, sob, having to eat Pasta.

Curt is milque toast, compared to Edda. But, watch out for Cassandra. sun-)

There is an expression in Afrikaans. * Stille water, dieper grond, onder draai die duivels rond *.

Rough translation : Calm water, under ground, the devils are spinning things, round and round.

Got to watch the quiet ones. ss-)

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Amanda Knox Weighs '60 Minutes' Offer
11:41 AM PDT 10/27/2011 by Marisa Guthrie

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/a ... iew-254239


"Network news divisions publicly disavowed the practice of licensing personal photos and home videos from interview subjects after it was revealed that networks did pay Casey Anthony and her family. So Knox's best option for a big check is to first ink a book deal. Sources say the family has yet to retain a literary agent and that Knox likely won't do an interview until a book deal is in place. But nets still are trying, especially because Knox doesn't have Anthony's ethical baggage."
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Dammit, when the cat's away, they say, the rats think they can play, will need to start takig Rose Cnuts posts to pieces shortly, if there's one thing I hate it is people who think they are superior wile pretending to be polite when in fact they are anything but that.

This man rose is obsessed!

What is this that Jref fallout shelter?

On another subject, thank God...

The Joanna Yeates case sure is similar (as far as the accused, Vincent Tabak goes; he did so many similar things) to Knox and her lying - what is in my opinion think is - a murdering boyfriend.

Tabak admitted it though, he is a tad more intelligent than the others two, he admitted the manslaughter after having looked up all of the options and realised his best, most secure bet, and way of getting just a slap on the wrist, and no more, was by admitting to manslaughter.

He knew the damage done to his own name and more, to his own family was in shreds, so he, unlike the other deluded duo, knew that reputation and name could never be restored anyway and he, it appears, realised it's better to admit to one thing, rather than running the risk of definitely getting sent down for murder.

Hopefully, he is going to be found guilty tomorrow, of murder, he's as bad as Knox and Sollecito are, just as wicked, calculated and basically into getting away with the real intent that underpinned the actions that led to death.

And back to Rose, it's a terrible idea but with people such as your poor Mr Rose, I find myself thinking that something awful, really, as way of karma, should or ought to overcome you, like people in your family being murdered, because you as so many others have been intellectually dishonest and the only reason you are in it at all, debating these things, as far as I can make out, is to try to show off some self-assumed intellectual superiority, that's what I think of you and your motives for going ion and on with your billions of posts on all kinds of blogs, not that I read them but you are infamous.

Anyhow, I unlike Sollecito, Knox or Tabak, do not like violence or even unkindness, so, it's not me wishing that you get run over by a hit n run driver and then have everyone say you walked into the road, unlike with Meredith, I'd not be able to feel a thing for a person like you though, I could feel no sadness at all for anything terrible that happened to you, as I find that you and others exactly like you have been truly unreal about all of this and have no feelings, to you it is all about mind games, Mr Polite Cnut, for that reason the respect I have for you is about as much as I have for a lump of shit.

Thanks

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Amanda Knox says her time in Italian jail was 'torture'
The four years Amanda Knox spent in an Italian jail were "torture", she said in letters written from her cell.
By Nick Squires, Rome, 5:14PM BST 27 Oct 2011

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... rture.html


(Mandy's letters to mystery admirer Maurizio...)
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Amanda Knox Family Still Battling Rumors and News Stories
By NIKKI BATTISTE, Oct. 27, 2011
http://abcnews.go.com/US/amanda-knox-fa ... d=14826105

Mr Sollecito: "I did not talk about any communications between Amanda and my son. I have no idea if they speak every day. I don't talk to Raffaele about those details, but he has a computer in his room so maybe they do communicate. But I do not know the extent of it," he said.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Hi Zorba :)

The Joanna Yeates case is interesting (and very sad, of course), and yes, Vincent Tabak seems to be more intelligent than Amanda and Raff.
I haven't read very much about the case, but found it a bit strange that apparently his girl-friend and her family support him so explicitly...still.
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Offline jhansigirl


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Ava wrote:
Amanda Knox says her time in Italian jail was 'torture'
The four years Amanda Knox spent in an Italian jail were "torture", she said in letters written from her cell.
By Nick Squires, Rome, 5:14PM BST 27 Oct 2011

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... rture.html


(Mandy's letters to mystery admirer Maurizio...)


Poor thing. ;)

My memory must be failing I could have sworn Edda said that all the other prisoners loved her and were cheering when she was acquited.

huh-) :?

And I saw this on TJMK

Attachment:
marriott.jpg


Now I no longer believe in Santa Claus :(


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

I've been giving a lot of thought regarding Marriott.

He has been the 'Alastair Campbell' for Amanda Knox (albeit a far sleazier version...more like a version Alan Bastard's accountant hidden away in a scummy caravan in 'The New Statesman') and let's face it, a 'capitalist', one with all the negative connotations that word carries, rather then the positive ones. He has been compared to the Wizard of Oz and he is that, in that he is a fraud...a con artist. And certainly, there are many themes within the story of the Wizard of OZ that can be found in this case.

But, I thought about it some more. And I concluded, he isn't the Wizard of Oz. You see, the Wizard of Oz may well have been conning the people he was ruling over, but the crucial difference was that he genuinely cared about them. He believed he was helping them and that was his primary aim, not to help himself. He pressed a lie, but within his lie the City of Oz was a happy, beautiful, prosperous and safe place. His lie was a lie, but was for the greater good, in service of the people rather then himself.

This is the great difference between Marriott and Oz. Marriott has never been in service to anyone, other than himself, his desire for coin and power (and now we see all that lust materialise). All the lies have been self serving, not for any greater good. You see, the truth we know about Marriott is that had the Knox's not called him (by recommendation of their powerful friends) and anti-Knox parties had of instead have done so, he'd have just as readily have served them. He would have happily spent four years smearing Knox, rather than Mignini. Oz would never have rented himself out to the Wicked Witch.

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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

jhansigirl wrote:
Ava wrote:
Amanda Knox says her time in Italian jail was 'torture'
The four years Amanda Knox spent in an Italian jail were "torture", she said in letters written from her cell.
By Nick Squires, Rome, 5:14PM BST 27 Oct 2011

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... rture.html


(Mandy's letters to mystery admirer Maurizio...)


Thanks for that link.
Squires is just Squires tu-))

He quotes Manders:
"Why am I here? It is really torture. I am being tortured. It is not right. I'm suffering so much," the former University of Washington undergraduate wrote in a letter to a mystery admirer named Maurizio.

Sure, Manders, Sure


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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

If you want to remain totally spoiler-free before you read John Follain's Death in Perugia, please note that the following review by James Raper (posted on TJMK) may contain some spoilers (depends on what you think a spoiler is...). If you have no problem with it, you may want to read this:

TJMK's review of "Death in Perugia"
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

A new photo of Sollecito & Family out for a walk: THE DAILY MAIL
(scroll down to the end of the article)

It's hard to look at Sollecito's grinning face. It's a bit disconcerting, really. That is not a real smile. The expression on his face seems to say: "Look at me. I'm doing this." tu-))
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Meredith, too much clamor
Sollecito cancels Mass

"I do not want that a moment of meditation and prayer is affected by the unprecedented media attention." The young man cancels function [in memory of Meredith] scheduled for Friday in the parish of St. Joseph in Giovinazzo.
by LELLO PARISE

La Repubblica

----------------------
RS probably couldn't face media scrutiny... You know, sadness and sorrow are just too hard to fake, when you only feel sorry for yourself, though Shakespeare once said:

"To show an unfelt sorrow is an office
Which the false man does easy."

(Macbeth)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

BBC Interview with Francesco Sollecito

Raffaele Sollecito's father on never losing faith while his son was in jail for murder

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/outlook
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Taylor Hawes | Identifying the faces of crime
Tattle-Taylor | Media focus on attractive offenders hinders our perception of crime

By Taylor Hawes · October 27, 2011, 11:43 pm


THE DAILY PENNSYLVANIAN

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:00 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Amanda Knox’s dad raps hate mail yobs
'Disgusting' letters to her

From NICK PARKER, Chief Foreign Correspondent in Seattle

Published: 07 Oct 2011

THE SUN


(What, did you expect everyone to love her Curt? People don't like it when people get away with murder. Not that I condone hate mail of course. But, you are now experiencing reality.)

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Just thought we should have this pic on PMF:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:06 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Looks like Madison's been at too much of the pasta:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Rose Montegue -

Regarding your recent invitation for contributions to your imagined collaborative book. Speaking for myself personally, I will have to decline. I have always maintained that I will not write a book on this case and even though by your suggestion it would merely be minor contributions rather then authorship/editorship and the book would be free rather then for profit, I must stick to the principle I have maintained throughout. I have also critcised the likes of Waterbury and Fisher (Fischer) for self-publishing 'books' and it may be considered hypocritical by some were I to then contribute to a book myself.

However, that said, you are free to use any material from PMF.net or the PMF Blog that you wish for your project, be they posts (including mine), articles, documents or PMF created media. All I would ask is that they are used faithfully without any distortions and are credited. Should you also wish to use anything from our Haloscan period, you have my blessing, but it would also be a good idea to check it with Steve Huff, since technically he would be the owner of that content.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Administrator Note:

Just a heads up to everyone, UK clocks go back one hour tonight from BST to GMT and I will be resetting the standard board time in line with that. It may well be then, that some of you will also have to adjust your standard board time in your User Control Panel so that board posts display the correct time.

Thank You

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

AMANDA KNOX SNUBS MEREDITH

Sunday October 30,2011
By Marco Giannangeli


SUNDAY EXPRESS

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Offline teabreak


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Hi Michael, many thanks for making the time to answer, I appreciate it.

Michael wrote:
It is ridiculous to suggest that they are going to deliberately lay all the glass pieces out on the sill. Not only were they laid out 'neatly', but so they were all touching each other in the position they would have been whilst in the window. It is even more ridiculous to suggest that said intruder then hauled himself in over that glass, not only not knocking any of it off onto the ground, but not even disrupting its positioning. The glass was just laying there, it wasn't superglued to the ledge.


As has probably been suggested before, in the forensic photograph of the broken window pane from Romanelli’s room, the glass does appear to have been removed from the lower edge of the casement as no sheared glass edge (as would have been expected from a stone break close to the edge) is visible there. Anyone attempting to break in there would have had to stand on the bars of the window below, holding on with one hand while removing the shards of glass from the bottom edge with the other in doing so their chest would have to have been pressed against the window cill and the quickest method would have been to pull them free and drop them on the cill

However as already said, I agree that it was very strange that none of glass (especially larger pieces that would have been easily visible on the ground) had been displaced during any proposed entry through the window.

Michael wrote:
I'm not sure all the staging and partial clean-up would have been done right away. That infers they would have immediately formulated a clear and complete plan immediately. Since Meredith's murder wasn't premeditated, that is highly doubtful. They may have in haste done one or two things having a basic idea, but I'm sure while back at Sollecito's they must have thought on reflection..."Damn, we should have done this and that as well, as that would have made it more convincing" and "Are we certain we didn't leave this or that which might directly point to our involvement?".


When you say partial clean up are you referring to the rest of the cottage i.e in all but Meredith’s room and the bathroom or something else?

Okay I accept that if they were responsible it would have been a good idea to get Sollecito to the cottage before calling the police in order to explain any recent evidence he may have left there and that had anyone come home while Knox was faffing about then an obviously visible window would be hard to ignore and explain.

Michael wrote:
Primary considerations always outweigh secondary considerations. This is why break-ins traditionally take place around the back or side of places. No burglar of any kind of savvy is going to break into a place a via the front in full view of the main road, the front gate, overlooking apartments and an overlooking car park, especially when it also involves loudly smashing a window with a giant rock and then mountaineering halfway up the front of the building, all with their back to said list of things.


Apparently the window was not lit by headlights from cars on the road as it was obscured by both the railings and a tree which still had leaf cover and the fact that oncoming cars were on the farther side of the road not the side nearest the house. There does not appear to be a footpath on either side so less chance of pedestrian onlookers. I think the window would have been in complete darkness so unlikely anyone at the window would be seen from the overlooking apartments. Yes the gate and the approach to the house, if all the considerations mentioned above are taken into account then a view of the approach while scaling the wall might be handy for the burglar.

Michael wrote:
And it's worth pointing out, if nobody sees or hears you, which would have been the case if the intruder broke in through the kitchen window, then you will have reduced the likelihood that you'd ever 'need' to escape by a good 90%. The only chance of being caught then is if one of the housemates returned home and actually caught him while he was in there. But since he would have already been inside at that point, it makes little difference whether he'd have gone in through front or back...and there would have been little point in his 'escaping' in any case since the housemates all new him and so would have recognised him.


As you pointed out the housemates knew him to look at and therefore any need to escape quickly would only arise before entry and especially during the window break e.g. the burglar breaks the window then retreats to the shadows and awaits a response, if there is no response then burglar assumes house is empty and enters. This becomes more difficult if you climb on to the patio to break the kitchen window as if anyone responds to the noise to escape you must climb down again.


Michael wrote:
teabreak wrote:
I'm having trouble confirming the weight of the rock could you quote your source please?


It was in the the trial testimony and forensic reports. You'll find it in the Massei Report somehwere (also the Micheli Report).


I’ll have another look for it. Although I am surprised you don’t know it’s location in the report, if as you say this is the type of Knoxist rehash you have to deal with regularly then I would have expected you to have the details of the information to hand so you could shoot down in flames at first sight any nonsense they suggest.

I wonder how far I’d get with “You'll find it in the Massei Report somewhere”. As a response?

Michael wrote:
What about it? A hammer is useful for lots of things, it's a generic tool. Just because its original purpose was for breaking bus windows doesn't mean Guede had it for breaking windows. You don't need a special hammer to break a window in any case, any hard implement will do. No specialised tool required.


These hammers are not of the generic variety, they have a point not a flat hammer face its sole purpose is to break glass. No you don’t need a hammer to break windows a stone will suffice. However a neat little hammer especially for the job is a handy pocket sized tool for easily enlarging any hole in broken glass.

Michael wrote:
What about the legal office that had its window broken with a rock I'm not sure where you got the stone was 'large' from. .


It too was in the Massei report Page 46 line 9

Michael wrote:
Oh, and it was also a professional job. The burglar alarm was disabled.


I don’t know about that Michael. I’m sure the prosecution would have used this fact in any attempt to distance Guede from the crime and it wasn’t mentioned it in the motivations. Well I couldn’t see it could you point to it for me please?

Michael wrote:
He also went there to apologise to the owners for having the stolen property and to assure them that he'd bought them in good faith. Not really the actions of a guilty person. .


No, but on the other hand it could also be the actions of a brazen thief who after been caught with the goods was trying to back up his alibi as the innocent victim in receipt of stolen goods in order to get the police off his arse.

Michael wrote:
That's why things are stolen in the first place, mostly so they can be sold to other people for cash. .


Yes I know…..that’s why I suggested it was a possibility Guede might be the thief and stole the laptop.

Michael wrote:
Guede's hardly going to tell the police who he really bought the laptop off and grass them up, is he?


Anyone caught in possession of stolen goods is hardly likely to admit to burglary either are they?

I was simply pointing out was it is quite a coincidence that the office was broken into using a stone through the first floor window and Guede who lived in Perugia was caught in possession of the stolen goods while in Milan, nothing more.

Michael wrote:
Besides a couple of items stolen from the office, there is nothing connecting Guede to the burglary. There is no forensic evidence (and we know Guede leaves lots).


Yeah…I’ve seen the police here dust a couple of break-ins and you would be lucky if they spent more than 5 minutes and even then they didn’t bother to take any prints they found even after it was pointed out to them it was too big to be the householders. It appears they just aren’t that interested in devoting the time to a burglary.


Michael wrote:
I do find it interesting that despite the long list of evidence against Knox and Sollecito, people will claim there is not enough evidence against them for a conviction, yet these very same people are quite happy to convict Guede of breaking into the office when there is no evidence he did so at all and he has been neither charged nor tried for it. Just thought I'd point out the double standard.


My mind is open to any and all scenarios. I am just raising the points as I come across them in the motivations and haven’t managed to get past the break in here yet

As I already said I am just pointing out this is a nice coincidence and suggesting it remains a possibility that Guede could be a housebreaker who at least once has used a stone through an upstairs window to enter a property.

Michael wrote:
teabreak wrote:
Some people quite rightly will not answer their door when home alone and not expecting visitors
In which case, they shout back 'through the door' who is it? They don't have to open the door. 'No self respecting thief would rely on knocking on a door to see if someone's home?' Throwing giant rocks through windows to do so is standard practice is it? Perhaps you can give us some case examples. Then I might believe you. Until then, I'll consider it so much risible nonsense. .


From my own experience of knocking doors. I can quite accurately state that a lot of people simply ignore the door if they don’t want to answer it. No shouting just ignoring.

Yes breaking windows to gain access for a thief is pretty much standard practice. If the window is on a first floor then some method of breaking the glass must be employed. In fact I can’t think of anything better to use than a stone or around here, where they build with them, bricks tend to be a firm favourite…

“Giant rocks” Really…… It’s growing daily…..I saw a SOCO handling it on the police video on channel 5 Tuesday night and it didn’t look any bigger than a house brick.

Michael wrote:
No, because I don't see it having been demonstrated that Guede actually did commit prior break-ins. Innuendo and mere accusations does not evidence make. The court is merely theorising on that count,


Your right it didn’t demonstrate that Guede actually did commit the breakins. Just that it might have been a possibility.

Yes from what the Knoxers say it appears a lot of the case might have been built around the courts theorising.



Michael wrote:
teabreak wrote:
And that Guede a man with no source of income bought the laptop stolen from the legal office in Perugia while visiting Milan?


He'd been working until very recently. People like to 'assume' he had no assets, but I've seen no evidence supporting that assumption. Guede had quite a lot of expensive things, that he'd bought while he'd been working. He also received state benefits. And, if your strapped for cash, aren't second hand items exactly what you're going to buy rather then less affordable new ones? Just sayin'. And if you go round any unemployed person's home, you'll find they've got all sorts of things...TV's, stereos, VCR's, DVD players, Playstations, computers...even electricity and running water. Far from the vision of bare floorboards, a single cheap table and chair, mattress on the floor and a half used candle. Many of these people have these things without having had to resort to crime. Amazing, but true.


Actually your right, as he was allegedly a small time hash dealer and by the sound of it, in student riddled Perugia, this could have netted him a tidy income. Therefore it was wrong to mention he didn’t currently have an income. Anyway I was really just trying to draw attention to the coincidence that both he and the laptop were from Perugia yet met in Milan.

Michael wrote:
teabreak wrote:
You are happy with Guede's initial excuse after being placed at the murder scene of "a big boy did it and ran away"


No. And I don't appreciate the straw man. .


No ……I just thought it was a good analogy after your attempt at “the dog ate my homework” dig

Michael wrote:
I'm not the one that needs to. I, am not the one arguing that standard practice for a burglar to see if anyone is home it to lob a giant rock through their window, or that a burglar is gong to carefully place glass on a window sill they need to clamber over and then magically do so without disturbing it, or that mountaineering up the face of a building in full view of the world so 'one has an escape route' is the logical thing to do.


No one is suggesting this is standard practice only that it is a possibility and should not be discounted out of hand just because it doesn’t fit with your perceived or preferred burglary technique.

I am simply arguing that I think it is at least a possibility that a break in through the window may have been disregarded too early.

I can assure you that I am only raising the points as I come across them in the report and if we ever get past this break in…… eventually I will come across Knox and Sollecito’s statements etc and will be querying any irregularities there also.

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Offline stint7


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Michael wrote:
AMANDA KNOX SNUBS MEREDITH

Sunday October 30,2011
By Marco Giannangeli


SUNDAY EXPRESS


Interesting read.

Knox's failure to mention Meredith ever in any of her her voluminous prison writings is typical of her narcissistic personality 'quirks'.

However, more significantly, it also makes a mockery of her spontaneous statement in Court as well as the Marriott talking point about her being "such close friends".

This statement from Knox was also interesting:
Of her new cellmate, she writes: “We joke, cook and give each other manicures. We listen to lots of music because we are allowed a radio.”
Makes a mockery of Marriott's latest spin from Curt/Edda/Deanna/Madpax on how *tortured* her prison life was.


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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Happy Sunday all … I used the quiet period to (re)watch some of the BBC’s Live coverage of the Oct 3 verdict and its aftermath.

Ok, I know everyone has probably already seen this but hey … it’s new to me. I didn’t watch BBC World News on the night of the verdict. Some of the videos deserve another watch, so I’m embedding the Youtube video clips below in case anyone wants to take a look. It may at least help pass the time on ‘slow news’ days. Plus you might also spot some familiar faces in some of the vids. ;)

Knox & Sollecito Freed - BBC WORLD NEWS 2011-10-03 Part.2/5 (John Follain)
(GMT 22:00) Duration: 14’07”; Carlo Della Vedova comments on the verdict



Knox & Sollecito Freed - BBC WORLD NEWS 2011-10-03 Part.4/5
(GMT 22:00) Duration: 9’19”; Bongiorno comments on the verdict



Knox & Sollecito Freed - BBC WORLD NEWS 2011-10-03 Part.5/5
(GMT 22:00) Duration: 7’57”; Steve Moore being interviewed



Last edited by guermantes on Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

You never know what you will see behind a reporter’s back

:)


Let’s be clear here - usually what happens behind a reporter’s back is more interesting than what a reporter is saying. Look who I’ve found. Steve Moore may be planning to take on a new role as Knox’s bodyguard, but PMF hasn’t said goodbye to him yet.

At the back of the courtroom, a select group of press & media people and onlookers from the legal community crane their necks to get a better view of the podium, while Steve Moore sits/stands leaning on a stone wall and looks straight into the BBC's camera. Candace D. is also there, lurking behind some equipment in the far corner of the room. If you don’t believe it’s her, wait a little until I post a couple more shots which will dispel all your doubts...

Attachment:
Daniel Sandford reporting from the courtroom 03.10.11.JPG


Attachment:
Candace Dempsey behind Daniel Sandford's back.JPG


Amanda Knox Italy Murder Appeal - BBC WORLD NEWS 2011-10-03
(Daniel Sandford reporting from the courtroom)

Youtube video


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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

For those who still don’t believe CD was there, I present you with the proof.

She was spotted leaving the courtroom as seen here in a screen shot.

Attachment:
Candace spotted exiting courtroom-5-36-red.JPG


She can also be seen exiting the courthouse @ 10’01” in the second video.

CNN showed her looking a bit ruffled and flustered: I put it down to the effects an acquittal had on her. :)

Attachment:
Candace exiting courthouse-red arrow.JPG


Attachment:
Candace exiting courthouse-2-red arrow.JPG


Amanda Knox Verdict - NOT GUILTY LIVE (CNN)
(Dempsey @5’36”/5’38” leaving courtroom) CNN video 1

Amanda Knox Is Free -- Italian Court Did the Right Thing (CNN)
(Dempsey @ 10’01” exiting courthouse) CNN video 2
------------------------
Sorry for the bad quality of shots: they are a bit fuzzy and blurry; the Youtube video was recorded from a TV screen with a webcam, hence its fuzziness.


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Amanda Knox
Guilty of Being a Cat Burglar

Less than a month after being released from an Italian jail, Amanda Knox was spotted heading to a Halloween party in Seattle this weekend dressed as a cat burglar.

Image


TMZ

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

There are many "coincidences" about this case, but the one I most like, (and there are many, like Amanda Knox and OJ Simpson, born July 09, acquitted Oct. 03, and both used knives) is the exploding toilet hoax called in to Elisabeta Lana on November 1, 2007 which led to the discovery of Meredith Kercher's mobiles and the interruption of the attempted cleanup. Without that, the two might well have gotten away with the crime. As to the final outcome, let's see.
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Offline capealadin


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Didn't Amanda go as a cat in Perugia? For Halloween?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Amanda Knox's Inappropriate Halloween Costume
October 31, 2011 12:50 PM EDT
By Mary Jane


GATHER

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

capealadin wrote:
Didn't Amanda go as a cat in Perugia? For Halloween?



Yeah, barely home a few days and she's gone out dressed as a burglar when she was accused (and convicted) of staging a burglary to try and cover up the murder of her housemate and is wearing the same cat face makeup that she wore the day before her housemate was murdered, the housemate she was accused of (and convicted of) murdering. Four years after the fact and this woman still hasn't grasped even the concept of what 'appropriate' means. Moreover, since they didn't call her on it, it would seem none of her idiot friends and family grasp the concept of it either!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -   

Snidely Whiplash
Attachment:
Snidely Whiplash.jpg


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