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XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:08 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael

Thank you so much for providing a space for us to collaborate on the guilty parties in the murder of Meredith Kercher. Thank you so much for taking over the site from Huffington, and managing the website with a woman from Seattle; the one who looked after the social/moderator end. It was very kind of her to offer to pay the small fee to register and host the site. Without your dedication to justice for Meredith, and experience with web development, this collaboration could not have happened.

Thank you so much for starting this twin site. I had fun with the graphics. I don't see a scenario where Guede created all the evidence at the crime scene.

Thank you to everyone from all over the place that shared information. I learned some Italian, practiced German, amd learned so much about judicial systems in foreign countries. It was confirmed that even though the US has signed extradition treaties, the average person on the street believes that US law provides an exemption to honouring a treaty.

Without the media, money, PR firm, books, social media, and allusions to fantasy, the guilty verdict would have been affirmed guilty in their appeal. It's good to have a safe place to say this.

Thanks
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I'm going to upload some case graphics ... for no particular reason ... but in part because I'm looking at the last 7 years of case related graphics.

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St Amanda.jpg


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This post has been edited by a Moderator: Fixed image size to fit the forum width. ~ guermantes ~
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:00 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

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Image

This post has been edited by a Moderator: Fixed image size to fit the forum width. ~ guermantes ~
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Attachment:
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That's about it ... sorry for running the page ...
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Attachment:
Shifting Verdict.jpg
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
Michael wrote:
Nell wrote:
zorba wrote:
If the High Court judges were bought, that would render the ruling void.


Unfortunately not. Even if foul play was involved, the ruling is now final and unappealable.

I know, the groupies are excited about this verdict, but Amanda Knox is only Italian's O.J. Simpson, nothing more. They speak of full exoneration and proof of innocence, but that never happened. There is no proof of her innocence, only evidence that incriminates her.

I am not sure how they are going to explain their decision considering that the high court before ruled very differently. It makes no legal or logical sense.


Indeed. Unless Italy changes her constitutional laws to directly deal with issues such as these, it can't ever be appealed or undone.

As for making sense of it? Right wing freemasonry that enabled water to run uphill. P2/3. The same forces at play as behind Hellmann. For the HC, this appeal was about Sollecito rather then Knox. Just my personal opinion.


I have to correct myself. According to Yummi there is a possibility to have a Supreme Court ruling nullified and that is when there is evidence that one of the Supreme Court judges was corrupted.



Yes, that's why I said so, as it is logical.


When judges say what Hellmann did and Bruno did it makes me think that people have been bought up, why would they, should they say anything at all before a court even enters sessions?

Very peculiar, Italian institutions are still very, very corruptible, that is clear and fact, recently hundreds of mafia were picked up, after infiltrating/infecting (better word) so many businesses and institutions. The way Sollecito's sister was smiling too, before any outcome had been delivered is also telling. Maybe dad really did have his especially helpful, or special help chums.

Knox and her Meredith was MY friend.

Yes, Patrick was also her MY friend, great time he had at it too, wonderful, hey, you're a great friend Amanda, let me thank you, you owe me my business, that's all, and money you've failed to pay for accusing me, falsely, of rape and murder.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Raffaele Sollecito to hold press conference

Apparently Raffaele Sollecito announced a press conference. Here is what Barbie Nadeau tweeted:

Quote:
@BLNadeau

#RaffaeleSollecito to hold a press conference Mon at noon in Rome (Centro Congressi Cavour) asks to be left alone till then.#MeredithKercher

16 hours ago
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Offline NorrisC


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
David Anderson, who has attacked the Kerchers maliciously and repeatedly over the years, is now writing a book according to The Independent.

From the article:

Quote:
The lawyer representing the family of the murdered 21-year-old Meredith Kercher said yesterday that there was a “great sense of bitterness” over the decision of an Italian court to absolve definitively Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito of a role in the killing.

Seven and a half years after the murder of Ms Kercher in Perugia, and a number of legal proceedings, Franceso Maresca, the lawyer representing the Kerchers, said yesterday: “The family is in shock after the verdict. They don’t wish to make any other declarations. I’ve had to explain to them there are now no avenues open to them. There is a great sense of bitterness.”

The Kerchers, who had previously spoken of their confidence in the Italian justice system, have made it clear that they believe Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito were involved in the killing, along with Rudy Guede, who has already been jailed for the murder. Italy’s Supreme Court of Cassation cleared Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito late on Friday night.

[...]

Many people who have studied the crime, however, believe it was entirely possible and indeed likely that Guede, who’d already committed a series of burglaries, acted alone when Ms Kercher came home on the fateful evening of 1 November 2007 to a surprised Guede, and crucially, locked him in the house with her.

One such person is David Anderson, a former professor of medicine at Manchester University, now living near Perugia, who is writing a book: Malicious Prosecutions: the Psychopathology of the Law Breaking the Law.


Thankfully Anderson is about a week late with releasing that book. The very few lunatics who would have bought it have no reason to support the cause anymore, so won't. I suppose Frank might buy a copy with money Anderson has had to give him to buy it.
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Offline SwanseaJack


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:36 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I am posting some email exchanges I had with Sollecito's close friend. I am sure you will find them very interesting I will post both the original and also translated version:

Good morning Cristina, I have studied the evidence as a whole. ANCH'IO. CONOSCO SARA DA 9 ANNI  E HO AVUTO ACCESSO A TUTTI GLI ATTI, ANCHE A QUELLI NON PUBBLICI. SONO AL CORRENTE DI COSE MAI PUBBLICATE E CHE SOLO LA FAMIGLIA SA.  The Italian courts have confirmed the evidence against Raf. OVVIAMENTE PERCHE' E' L'ACCUSA.  Raf lied to protect Knox, we are talking about a murder of a young girl. If I met a girl 7 days before her housemate got murdered and she asked me to lie for her I would report her to police straight away. SONO D'ACCORDO...MA RAF NON SAPEVA QUELLO CHE ERA SUCCESSO IN QUELLA CASA. AMANDA NON GLIEL'HA MAI DETTO! LUI STESSO DISSE AL PM CHE NON CAPIVA COME AK AVESSE POTUTO FARE LA DOCCIA IN QUELLA SITUAZIONE E SOPRATTUTTO PERCHE' NON GLI AVESSE DETTO DELLA STANZA DELLA ROMANELLI A SOQQUADRO. LUI HA SEMPRE DETTO CHE LA PORTA DELLA ROMANELLI ERA APERTA E LUI IL GIORNO DOPO HA VISTO SUBITO LA FINESTRA ROTTA, ETC...
Raf's DNA on the bra clasp is not LCN as claimed by the FOA it is a full representation of 16 loci. NO JACK! GRANDE ERRORE QUESTO! 9 ALLELI SU 16 NON E' UN MATCH! This is too strong to be a result of secondary / innocent transfer. Raf touched that bra clasp. JACK, ERA IMPOSSIBILE LASCIARE IL DNA SOLO SUL GANCETTO DI FERRO E NON SULLA STOFFA DEL REGGISENO  There is no computer activity on Raf's computer between 21:10 & 05:32. SBAGLIATO. ALLE 21.26 IL SUO PC APRE NARUTO. LA PERIZIA SUL SUO PC E' STATA AMMESSA AGLI ATTI His cell phone activates at 06:02 after listening to a music file on his pc for half an hour. This when they claim they were both asleep. QUI C'E' UNA COSA MOLTO IMPORTANTE CHE TU NON SAI: RAF HA SEMPRE DETTO (CI SONO LE INTERCETTAZIONI AMBIENTALI IN CARCERE) CHE E' STATA AMANDA A SVEGLIARLO QUELLA MATTINA PRIMA DELLE 6, PERCHE' ERA AGITATA E LUI HA ACCESO IL TELEFONO.  The bottom line is Meredith was brutally killed, her life was taken cruelly. She must have been terrified and died alone hundreds of miles away from her family and those who could protect her. It took Raf nearly 7 years to confirm his Nov 2007 statement that Know wasn't with him, whilst in the mean time claimed in his book Knox was with him. Too many lies from them both. SOLO NEL LIBRO RAFFAELE DICE CHE AK NON E' USCITA...MA TU NON SAI CHE PER QUEL LIBRO E' STATO "RAGGIRATO", "FREGATO", NON SO COME SI PUO' DIRE IN INGLESE. ED E' PER QUESTO CHE ORA SUBIRA' UN ALTRO PROCESSO. QUEL LIBRO E' STATO "FORZATO" E NON DOVEVA USCIRE. ORA RAFFAELE SI TROVA NEI GUAI ANCHE PER QUELLO. TUTTA COLPA DI AK E DEI SUOI FOA. IN TUTTE LE ALTRE DEPOSIZIONI E ANCHE NELLE INTERCETTAZIONI AMBIENTALI (IO HO LETTO 20.000 PAGINE JACK...) IN CARCERE, RAFFAELE DICE SEMPRE CHE AMANDA HA DORMITO CON LUI....MAI CHE E' STATA CON LUI ANCHE ALLA SERA.
Good morning Cristina, I have studied the evidence as a whole. ME TOO. I KNOW SARA FOR 9 YEARS AND I HAVE HAD ACCESS TO ALL THE DOCUMENTS, INCLUDING THOSE NOT MADE PUBLIC, I AM AWARE OF THINGS THAT WERE NEVER PUBLISHED. The Italian courts have confirmed the evidence against Raf. OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE IT IS THE PROSECUTION/ACCUSATION. Raf lied to protect Knox, we are talking about a murder of a young girl. If I met a girl 7 days before her housemate got murdered and she asked me to lie for her I would report her to police straight away. I AGREE… BUT RAF DIDN’T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT HOUSE AMANDA NEVER TOLD HIM! HE HIMSELF TOLD THE PM [the prosecutor] THAT HE DID NOT UNDERSTAND HOW AK COULD HAVE HAD A SHOWER IN THAT SITUATION [the state the place was in] AND ESPECIALLY WHY SHE DID NOT TELL HIM OF THE DISARRAY IN ROMANELLI’S ROOM. HE HAS ALWAYS SAID THAT ROMANELLI’S DOOR WAS OPEN AND THE NEXT DAY HE SAW THE BROKEN WINDOW IMMEDIATELY, ETC… Raf's DNA on the bra clasp is not LCN as claimed by the FOA it is a full representation of 16 loci. NO JACK! THIS IS A BIG MISTAKE! 9 ALLELES OF 16 IS NOT A MATCH! This is too strong to be a result of secondary / innocent transfer. Raf touched that bra clasp. JACK, IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO LEAVE THE DNA ONLY ON THE METAL HOOK AND NOT ON THE [PIECE OF] BRA FABRIC. There is no computer activity on Raf's computer between 21:10 & 05:32. WRONG. AT 21.26 HIS PC OPENS NARUTO. THE EXPERT’S REPORT ON HIS PC WAS ADMITTED IN THE PROCEEDINGS! His cell phone activates at 06:02 after listening to a music file on his pc for half an hour. This when they claim they were both asleep. HERE'S SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW: RAF HAS ALWAYS SAID (THERE ARE THE ENVIRONMENT EAVESDROP IN PRISON) THAT IT WAS AMANDA WHO WOKE HIM UP THAT MORNING BEFORE 6, BECAUSE SHE WAS AGITATED/NERVOUS AND HE SWITCHED ON THE PHONE. The bottom line is Meredith was brutally killed, her life was taken cruelly. She her family and those who could protect her. She must have been terrified and died alone hundreds of miles away from her family and those who could protect her. It took Raf nearly 7 years to confirm his Nov 2007 statement that Know wasn't with him, whilst in the mean time claimed in his book Knox was with him. Too many lies from them both. ONLY IN THE BOOK RAFFAELE SAYS AK RAFFAELE DID NOT GO OUT... BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT FOR THAT BOOK HE WAS “TRICKED”, “CHEATED”, I DON’T KNOW HOW YOU SAY IT IN ENGLISH. AND IT IS FOR THIS [REASON] THAT NOW HE WILL BE SUBJECTED TO ANOTHER TRIAL. THAT BOOK WAS “FORCED" AND SHOULD HAVE NOT COME OUT. RAFFAELE IS NOW ALSO IN TROUBLE FOR THAT. ALL BLAME GOES TO AK AND HER OWN FOA. IN ALL OTHER DEPOSITIONS AND ALSO IN THE EAVESDROPPINGS RECORDED (I HAVE READ 20,000 PAGES JACK…) IN PRISON, RAFFAELE ALWAYS SAYS THAT AMANDA SLEPT WITH HIM... NEVER THAT SHE WAS WITH HIM ALSO IN THE EVENING
JACK...TI PREGO...CREDIMI... IO TI STIMO MOLTO E VORREI CHE TU MI CREDESSI. SO CHE LA SITUAZIONE NON CAMBIA SE MI CREDI O NO, MA PROPRIO PERCHE' HO STIMA DI TE VORREI CHE TU MI CREDESSI. RAFFAELE FINO ALLE 12.30 DEL 2 NOVEMBRE NON SAPEVA NULLA... NON C'ERA, NON HA AIUTATO A PULIRE... LUI L'HA COPERTA IN BUONA FEDE, PENSANDO CHE NON AVESSE FATTO NIENTE...PERCHE' LEI NON GLIELO HA MAI CONFESSATO. GLI HA SEMPLICEMENTE DETTO CHE AVEVA PAURA. LUI E' STATO MOLTO STUPIDO A DIRE "CHE NON RICORDAVA"...E PER QUESTO MOTIVO E' GIUSTO CHE PAGHI. PERCHE' QUANDO C'E' DI MEZZO UN OMICIDIO I "NON RICORDO" NON DEVONO ESISTERE... E' GIUSTO CHE GLI VENGA DATO IL FAVOREGGIAMENTO. ADORO RAFFAELE, MA QUELLO CHE E' GIUSTO E' GIUSTO. LUI AVREBBE DOVUTO CONFERMARE   C H I A R A ME N T E  CHE LEI ERA USCITA ED E' RIENTRATA VERSO L'1, COME HA FATTO ALL'INIZIO. E' GIUSTO CHE ABBIA FATTO IL CARCERE PERCHE' LA CONDANNA PER FAVOREGGIAMENTO E' QUELLA CHE LUI HA SCONTATO. HA SBAGLIATO A DIRE "NON RICORDO"...MA QUELLA E' LA SUA UNICA COLPA. LUI E'  T O N T O...HA CREDUTO A QUELLA DELINQUENTE. MA TI GIURO, E TE LO DICO IO CHE LO CONOSCO COME SE FOSSE MIO FRATELLO: SE RAFFAELE RUBASSE UNA CARAMELLA VERREBBE SCOPERTO SUBITO...SAI PERCHE' RAFFAELE NON POTREBBE MAI MENTIRE? NON PERCHE' E' UN SANTO...MA PERCHE' NON E' CAPACE, NON HA MEMORIA... SAI QUANTE VOLTE MI ARRABBIO CON LUI PERCHE' ALLA MATTINA GLI DICO UNA COSA E AL POMERIGGIO NON SE LA RICORDA PIU'?!? SE LUI AVESSE FATTO QUALCOSA L'AVREBBERO SCOPERTO SUBITO, L'AVREBBERO FATTO CROLLARE E CONFESSARE SUBITO... IO HO UNA FIGLIA DI 19 ANNI CHE CONOSCE BENE RAF E LO ABBIAMO FREQUENTATO MOLTO SPESSO QUANDO ERA LIBERO...TU PENSI CHE UNA MAMMA LASCEREBBE LA PROPRIA FIGLIA CON UNO CHE ANCHE SOLO PUO' AVER COPERTO QUELLA CHE SAPEVA ESSERE UN'ASSASSINA?!?!? LUI HA CERCATO DI SAPERE LE COSE DA AMANDA ANCHE POCO TEMPO FA...MA LEI CONTINUA A NEGARE ANCHE CON LUI. JACK...CREDIMI...PER FAVORE

JACK ... PLEASE ... BELIEVE ME... I RESPECT YOU A LOT AND I WILL LIKE YOU TO BELIEVE ME. I KNOW THAT THE SITUATION DOES NOT CHANGE WHETHER YOU BELIEVE ME OR NOT, BUT PRECISELY BECAUSE I HAVE RESPECT FOR YOU I WANT YOU TO BELIEVE ME. RAFFAELE UP TO 12:30 NOVEMBER 2 HE DIDN’T KNOW ANYTHING... HE WAS NOT INVOLVE, HE DIDN’T HELP TO CLEAN UP... HE PROTECTED HER IN GOOD FAITH, THINKING THAT SHE HAD DONE NOTHING...BECAUSE SHE HAD NEVER CONFESSED TO HIM. SHE HAD SIMPLY TOLD HIM THAT SHE WAS AFRAID. HE WAS VERY STUPID TO SAY “THAT HE COULDN’T REMEMBER”... AND FOR THIS REASON IT IS RIGHT HE PAYS. BECAUSE WHEN IN THE MIDDLE OF IT THERE’S A MURDER THE “I DO NOT REMEMBER" SHOULD NOT EXIST... IT IS RIGHT/LEGITIMATE THAT HE GETS GIVEN THE FAVOREGGIAMENTO [CHARGED WITH HELPING A CRIMINAL-ABETTING]. I LOVE RAFFAELE, BUT WHAT IS JUST IS JUST. HE SHOULD HAVE CONFIRMED CLEARLY THAT SHE WENT OUT AND CAME BACK AROUND 01:00, LIKE HE DID AT THE BEGINNING. IT IS RIGHT THAT HE HAD TO DO PRISON TIME BECAUSE THE SENTENCE FOR FAVOREGGIAMENTO [HELPING A CRIMINAL] IT IS THAT WHAT HE ALREADY SERVED. HE MADE A MISTAKE BY SAYING “I DON’T REMEMBER”… BUT THAT IS HIS ONLY CRIME. HE IS DUMB… HE BELIEVE THAT DELINQUENT [AK]. BUT I SWEAR TO YOU, AND I’M TELLING YOU BECAUSE I KNOW HIM LIKE HE WAS MY BROTHER: IF RAFFAELE STEALS A SWEET WOULD BE FOUND OUT IMMEDIATELY… YOU KNOW BECAUSE RAFFAELE CANNOT LIE? NOT BECAUSE HE IS A SAINT… BUT BECAUSE HE IS NOT CAPABLE, HE LACKS MEMORY… DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I GET MAD AT HIM BECAUSE IN THE MORNING I TELL HIM SOMETHING AND BY NOON HE NO LONGER REMEMBERS?!? IF HE HAD DONE SOMETHING THEY WOULD HAVE DISCOVERED IT IMMEDIATELY. IT WOULD HAVE MADE HIM BUCKLE UNDER AND CONFESS IMMEDIATELY… I HAVE A 19 YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER WHO KNOWS RAF WELL AND WE HAVE SPEND A LOT OF TIME WITH HIM WHEN HE WAS FREED… YOU THINK THAT A MOTHER WOULD LEAVE HER OWN DAUGHTER WITH SOMEONE WHO COULD HAVE ALSO PROTECTED THE ONE THAT HE KNEW TO BE THE KILLER?!?!? HE HAS TRIED TO FIND THINGS OUT FROM AMANDA EVEN RECENTLY… BUT SHE CONTINUES TO DENY EVEN TO HIM. JACK… BELIEVE ME… PLEASE
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Offline jaybee51


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sounds like they weren't expecting total annulment. This sounds like the story they concocted in case of another trial with separated defences. She prepared it and she wants to use it.......

Or this is the version they want to promote to rehabilitate RS in the eyes of the world.

Load of bollocks. But interesting!
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I can confirm I saw anti AK tweets coming from this person and liked by RS's aunt. All of this really blew up after the CCTV pictures were shared and RS began to say more clearly that he and Amanda were not the same person and she might have gone out. Also recently the Sollecito group were separating from Frank Sforza , Christina calling him dishonest etc. I'm not sure what all this means , did RS tell his family he dealt with a frightened AK arriving at his place at 1 am? Probably . Will they now downplay their obvious finger pointing at AK , probably.
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Offline SwanseaJack


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

She also claims Vinci believes the bathmat footprint is Knox's and that she believes Knox "probably met Guede to pay for cocaine". What are the ISC accepting for Knox and Sollecito’s alibis?
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Rumpole wrote:
We shouldn't forget that they spent 4 years in prison so some justice was done (for those who see them as guilty obviously). And as I've mentioned before in my country 8 years is about what young 20-year-olds would get for a manslaughter (most killings of this type are prosecuted as manslaughters here unless clear premeditation can be shown or extreme cruelty is involved) and they would have been out in 4 years as first time offenders.

And so even if they were acquitted they didn't get away with it totally as they've spent years in prison and this case has been going on for 7,5 years in different courts. So it has affected their lives and they have paid some small price for it.

ETA: corrected typos.


15 minutes of torture with knives and a gang rape isn't "extreme cruelty"? Okey-dokey.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

How the Italian press and social media reacted to the verdict (I'll skip passages about Knox and Sollecito's families' reactions which are well-known):

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are innocent, acquitted for not having committed the crime

After eight years and five processes the Supreme Court clears the murder convictions after eleven hours of closed session. Resounding decision, which puts an end to the trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher. Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are innocent, but that does not mean that Meredith's murder goes unpunished. There is a murderer, and he is serving his sentence. It is the Ivorian Rudy Guede, who was sentenced to 16 years.

We will have to wait for the motivation, but it is clear that the courts have taken apart the foundations of the scaffolding of the case of the Prosecutor of Perugia. Somehow it became clear already Wednesday, in the reconstruction of the Judge Antonio Paolo Bruno, that this process was very questionable. "As there are very few certainties," insisting on no certainty of genetic evidence. It is on this that gave the lunge to the attorneys of Raffaele and Amanda. The hook, the knife? For Amanda no trace in Meredith's room except that on the kitchen knife from Raffaele's apartment on which there was no sign of Amanda and Meredith. For Raffaele, the hook of Meredith's bra, analyzed 46 days after the first inspection of the Scientific Police and after two searches of the apartment in Via della Pergola 7.

A long closed session, then. Unforeseen. Eleven hours. Someone had (rightly) seen as a harbinger of novelty. In short, the chief judges of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox, convicted by the Court of Assizes of Florence, could review the decision of Florence as did other chief judges in recent rulings that have overturned the conviction of Berlusconi and those of Moggi and Giraudo to Calciopoli. And so it was. On Wednesday, Judge Antonio Paolo Bruno had explained: "The judges of Florence had revisited the entire evidence. Certainties could be counted on one hand. A girl, Meredith Kercher, was killed by three, and not two stab wounds to the throat." The final conviction of Amanda for slander against Patrick Lumumba (which was confirmed by the Supreme Court).

If the Attorney General Mario Pinelli had shared the motivations of Florence and had explained the consistency with the directions of the Supreme Court, the defenders of Amanda, Carlo Dalla Vedova and Luciano Ghirga, and those of Raffaele, Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori, had remade the process. In short, they entered into the merits. So yesterday morning, Giulia Bongiorno spoke for over an hour and a half, which is unusual in a trial in the Supreme Court. She had "smashed" the certainties of 'colpevolisti'. Accentuating the mistakes of the investigators, consultants, investigators from Perugia. From the "selective cleaning of the crime scene." "How is it possible," she wondered, "that in Meredith's room there were traces of blood on the walls, shoe prints on the floor, palm prints on the pillow, and Raffaele gets nailed by a presence of DNA mixed with the other three on the hook ripped off of Meredith's bra?".

Sollecito's defense has also proposed an alternative, separating the procedural position of Raffaele from that of Amanda. To say that Sollecito had never set foot in that house on the evening of the crime, unlike Amanda. A procedural gimmick. A rift in the relations between the two young people? Raffaele and Amanda now enjoy freedom.[..]


DIARIO NET

So, why was Bongiorno allowed to speak for over 1,5 hours when all other lawyers had to limit their presentations to 20 minutes? It's all very strange..

More to come...
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:50 pm   Post subject: THE BEST WAY TO REMEMBER MEZ   

It has been a shock for everyone, I know. A process of grieving that may take some time. I will write a little bit more another day, but for today, my thoughts are with the Kerchers, and this is how I would like to remember Mez.

With thanks to her friend Daffi Khan, who posted this picture and a lot of others I never saw before on Twitter: Cheeky Mez
Quote:
Daffi ‏@daffikhan
1:30 AM - 28 Mar 2015
Arguing over who got to eat the peach in our Peach Crepe, this beauty swooped in & stole it #MeredithKercher #cheeky


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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Il Giornale:

Meredith, Italian justice loathed worldwide
By Sergio Rame

The verdict of the Supreme Court is the Waterloo of Italian justice: shown the world the absurdity of our system. Now who pays?

Five levels of courts, eight years of investigations and trials, two young people (Amanda and Raffaele) convicted and then acquitted: the Supreme Court puts an end to a process for the murder of Meredith Kercher, who had an impressive following worldwide. […]

But who pays for all this? The ruling yesterday, which showed the world the absurdity of our system, is the Waterloo of Italian justice. Now it will be clear to the whole world.

A bitter pill to swallow and a ruling that caused a shock to the [victim’s] family, these are the first comments of the British press on the final acquittal of Amanda and Raffaele for the murder of British student. For the Guardian, "the Kercher family after the verdict must now swallow a bitter pill," especially because, "after seven years of twists and turns, changes of direction and new processes, this is not the conclusion that the Kercher family could have desired." In particular, for the progressive newspaper, the main problem is that "the only people, who have ever been seriously suspected, were acquitted," and for the family it's "a very bitter pill to swallow."

The rest of the British press emphasizes the most surprising elements, at least to the public of the United Kingdom. For the Daily Telegraph, the coincidence of the judgment with the release of the film The face of the angel of the director Michael Winterbottom, the film clearly inspired by the events in Perugia and in US theaters just from Friday, March 27, is indicative of "an obsession with Amanda Knox”, fueled by the media circus that "insults Meredith Kercher". Goal now, writes the journalist Barbie Latza Nadeau, author of the book that inspired the film, is to bring Meredith, "the real victim", to the center of attention.

To play a decisive role in the acquittal were probably the strongest doubts about the validity of DNA tests performed during the investigation. Criticizing the findings of the Italian investigators, in the New Scientist magazine, as I recall, were several experts on both sides of the Atlantic.[…]. In 2009, an association of US experts had written an open letter to the court questioning the conclusions of DNA tests. "A chemical examination for the presence of blood on the knife was negative, but it was not taken into account - was written in the letter of The Innocence Project association- also the DNA found was enough for only a partial profile." Bruce Budowle's name mentioned, etc etc


IL GIORNALE
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jaybee51 wrote:
Sounds like they weren't expecting total annulment. This sounds like the story they concocted in case of another trial with separated defences. She prepared it and she wants to use it.......

Or this is the version they want to promote to rehabilitate RS in the eyes of the world.

Load of bollocks. But interesting!

Yah, that is the only thing interesting. Somehow they expected a retrial. RS kept saying he did not remember if AK went out till only days before the SC fiasco. I think Bongiorno was also really surprised although acting is her profession so I am not totally sure. At least they did not know far ahead or RS would not have done those shows with the not remember stuff.

It also shows how RS is fooling his own friends and family. She basically repeats his defense nonsense. The footprint is not his, the bra was contaminated, he never lied, he doesn't know anything, Knox did not tell him anything but somehow she knows that Knox bought drugs from Guede. Bollocks indeed. RS is a bad liar but he does lie. Pretty obvious when he said Knox went out, she did not go out, he does not remember. He pricked Meredith with the knife at his house, oh no he pricked her at the cottage but with another knife...blablabla. Murder is a bit more than stealing a candy! It makes people lie, even when they are bad at it. What a weirdo.
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Offline olleosnep


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
"They did not commit the crime" is the exact term and section used by Judge Hellmann. I suggest the ruling due in 90 days will be as jawdroppingly awful as Hellmann's.


Of course it will be. It can't be otherwise. You can't have 9 Italian courts (including 3 Cassazione) rule that the trio were guilty and two say they were 'innocent'.

That's why it will be important to properly translate it, and then to properly respond to it, citing all the preceding court motivation reports, with particular emphasis on the Cassazione report that eviscerated the Hellmann-Zanetti report, as well as all the known evidence to date.

No court will do that now, so it's up to us.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

This article has some interesting comments from Canestrini. They might not get paid for false imprisonment after all.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/28/europ ... innocence/
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Offline SwanseaJack


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

SwanseaJack wrote:
I am posting some email exchanges I had with Sollecito's close friend. I am sure you will find them very interesting I will post both the original and also translated version:

Good morning Cristina, I have studied the evidence as a whole. ANCH'IO. CONOSCO SARA DA 9 ANNI  E HO AVUTO ACCESSO A TUTTI GLI ATTI, ANCHE A QUELLI NON PUBBLICI. SONO AL CORRENTE DI COSE MAI PUBBLICATE E CHE SOLO LA FAMIGLIA SA.  The Italian courts have confirmed the evidence against Raf. OVVIAMENTE PERCHE' E' L'ACCUSA.  Raf lied to protect Knox, we are talking about a murder of a young girl. If I met a girl 7 days before her housemate got murdered and she asked me to lie for her I would report her to police straight away. SONO D'ACCORDO...MA RAF NON SAPEVA QUELLO CHE ERA SUCCESSO IN QUELLA CASA. AMANDA NON GLIEL'HA MAI DETTO! LUI STESSO DISSE AL PM CHE NON CAPIVA COME AK AVESSE POTUTO FARE LA DOCCIA IN QUELLA SITUAZIONE E SOPRATTUTTO PERCHE' NON GLI AVESSE DETTO DELLA STANZA DELLA ROMANELLI A SOQQUADRO. LUI HA SEMPRE DETTO CHE LA PORTA DELLA ROMANELLI ERA APERTA E LUI IL GIORNO DOPO HA VISTO SUBITO LA FINESTRA ROTTA, ETC...
Raf's DNA on the bra clasp is not LCN as claimed by the FOA it is a full representation of 16 loci. NO JACK! GRANDE ERRORE QUESTO! 9 ALLELI SU 16 NON E' UN MATCH! This is too strong to be a result of secondary / innocent transfer. Raf touched that bra clasp. JACK, ERA IMPOSSIBILE LASCIARE IL DNA SOLO SUL GANCETTO DI FERRO E NON SULLA STOFFA DEL REGGISENO  There is no computer activity on Raf's computer between 21:10 & 05:32. SBAGLIATO. ALLE 21.26 IL SUO PC APRE NARUTO. LA PERIZIA SUL SUO PC E' STATA AMMESSA AGLI ATTI His cell phone activates at 06:02 after listening to a music file on his pc for half an hour. This when they claim they were both asleep. QUI C'E' UNA COSA MOLTO IMPORTANTE CHE TU NON SAI: RAF HA SEMPRE DETTO (CI SONO LE INTERCETTAZIONI AMBIENTALI IN CARCERE) CHE E' STATA AMANDA A SVEGLIARLO QUELLA MATTINA PRIMA DELLE 6, PERCHE' ERA AGITATA E LUI HA ACCESO IL TELEFONO.  The bottom line is Meredith was brutally killed, her life was taken cruelly. She must have been terrified and died alone hundreds of miles away from her family and those who could protect her. It took Raf nearly 7 years to confirm his Nov 2007 statement that Know wasn't with him, whilst in the mean time claimed in his book Knox was with him. Too many lies from them both. SOLO NEL LIBRO RAFFAELE DICE CHE AK NON E' USCITA...MA TU NON SAI CHE PER QUEL LIBRO E' STATO "RAGGIRATO", "FREGATO", NON SO COME SI PUO' DIRE IN INGLESE. ED E' PER QUESTO CHE ORA SUBIRA' UN ALTRO PROCESSO. QUEL LIBRO E' STATO "FORZATO" E NON DOVEVA USCIRE. ORA RAFFAELE SI TROVA NEI GUAI ANCHE PER QUELLO. TUTTA COLPA DI AK E DEI SUOI FOA. IN TUTTE LE ALTRE DEPOSIZIONI E ANCHE NELLE INTERCETTAZIONI AMBIENTALI (IO HO LETTO 20.000 PAGINE JACK...) IN CARCERE, RAFFAELE DICE SEMPRE CHE AMANDA HA DORMITO CON LUI....MAI CHE E' STATA CON LUI ANCHE ALLA SERA.
Good morning Cristina, I have studied the evidence as a whole. ME TOO. I KNOW SARA FOR 9 YEARS AND I HAVE HAD ACCESS TO ALL THE DOCUMENTS, INCLUDING THOSE NOT MADE PUBLIC, I AM AWARE OF THINGS THAT WERE NEVER PUBLISHED. The Italian courts have confirmed the evidence against Raf. OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE IT IS THE PROSECUTION/ACCUSATION. Raf lied to protect Knox, we are talking about a murder of a young girl. If I met a girl 7 days before her housemate got murdered and she asked me to lie for her I would report her to police straight away. I AGREE… BUT RAF DIDN’T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT HOUSE AMANDA NEVER TOLD HIM! HE HIMSELF TOLD THE PM [the prosecutor] THAT HE DID NOT UNDERSTAND HOW AK COULD HAVE HAD A SHOWER IN THAT SITUATION [the state the place was in] AND ESPECIALLY WHY SHE DID NOT TELL HIM OF THE DISARRAY IN ROMANELLI’S ROOM. HE HAS ALWAYS SAID THAT ROMANELLI’S DOOR WAS OPEN AND THE NEXT DAY HE SAW THE BROKEN WINDOW IMMEDIATELY, ETC… Raf's DNA on the bra clasp is not LCN as claimed by the FOA it is a full representation of 16 loci. NO JACK! THIS IS A BIG MISTAKE! 9 ALLELES OF 16 IS NOT A MATCH! This is too strong to be a result of secondary / innocent transfer. Raf touched that bra clasp. JACK, IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO LEAVE THE DNA ONLY ON THE METAL HOOK AND NOT ON THE [PIECE OF] BRA FABRIC. There is no computer activity on Raf's computer between 21:10 & 05:32. WRONG. AT 21.26 HIS PC OPENS NARUTO. THE EXPERT’S REPORT ON HIS PC WAS ADMITTED IN THE PROCEEDINGS! His cell phone activates at 06:02 after listening to a music file on his pc for half an hour. This when they claim they were both asleep. HERE'S SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW: RAF HAS ALWAYS SAID (THERE ARE THE ENVIRONMENT EAVESDROP IN PRISON) THAT IT WAS AMANDA WHO WOKE HIM UP THAT MORNING BEFORE 6, BECAUSE SHE WAS AGITATED/NERVOUS AND HE SWITCHED ON THE PHONE. The bottom line is Meredith was brutally killed, her life was taken cruelly. She her family and those who could protect her. She must have been terrified and died alone hundreds of miles away from her family and those who could protect her. It took Raf nearly 7 years to confirm his Nov 2007 statement that Know wasn't with him, whilst in the mean time claimed in his book Knox was with him. Too many lies from them both. ONLY IN THE BOOK RAFFAELE SAYS AK RAFFAELE DID NOT GO OUT... BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT FOR THAT BOOK HE WAS “TRICKED”, “CHEATED”, I DON’T KNOW HOW YOU SAY IT IN ENGLISH. AND IT IS FOR THIS [REASON] THAT NOW HE WILL BE SUBJECTED TO ANOTHER TRIAL. THAT BOOK WAS “FORCED" AND SHOULD HAVE NOT COME OUT. RAFFAELE IS NOW ALSO IN TROUBLE FOR THAT. ALL BLAME GOES TO AK AND HER OWN FOA. IN ALL OTHER DEPOSITIONS AND ALSO IN THE EAVESDROPPINGS RECORDED (I HAVE READ 20,000 PAGES JACK…) IN PRISON, RAFFAELE ALWAYS SAYS THAT AMANDA SLEPT WITH HIM... NEVER THAT SHE WAS WITH HIM ALSO IN THE EVENING
JACK...TI PREGO...CREDIMI... IO TI STIMO MOLTO E VORREI CHE TU MI CREDESSI. SO CHE LA SITUAZIONE NON CAMBIA SE MI CREDI O NO, MA PROPRIO PERCHE' HO STIMA DI TE VORREI CHE TU MI CREDESSI. RAFFAELE FINO ALLE 12.30 DEL 2 NOVEMBRE NON SAPEVA NULLA... NON C'ERA, NON HA AIUTATO A PULIRE... LUI L'HA COPERTA IN BUONA FEDE, PENSANDO CHE NON AVESSE FATTO NIENTE...PERCHE' LEI NON GLIELO HA MAI CONFESSATO. GLI HA SEMPLICEMENTE DETTO CHE AVEVA PAURA. LUI E' STATO MOLTO STUPIDO A DIRE "CHE NON RICORDAVA"...E PER QUESTO MOTIVO E' GIUSTO CHE PAGHI. PERCHE' QUANDO C'E' DI MEZZO UN OMICIDIO I "NON RICORDO" NON DEVONO ESISTERE... E' GIUSTO CHE GLI VENGA DATO IL FAVOREGGIAMENTO. ADORO RAFFAELE, MA QUELLO CHE E' GIUSTO E' GIUSTO. LUI AVREBBE DOVUTO CONFERMARE   C H I A R A ME N T E  CHE LEI ERA USCITA ED E' RIENTRATA VERSO L'1, COME HA FATTO ALL'INIZIO. E' GIUSTO CHE ABBIA FATTO IL CARCERE PERCHE' LA CONDANNA PER FAVOREGGIAMENTO E' QUELLA CHE LUI HA SCONTATO. HA SBAGLIATO A DIRE "NON RICORDO"...MA QUELLA E' LA SUA UNICA COLPA. LUI E'  T O N T O...HA CREDUTO A QUELLA DELINQUENTE. MA TI GIURO, E TE LO DICO IO CHE LO CONOSCO COME SE FOSSE MIO FRATELLO: SE RAFFAELE RUBASSE UNA CARAMELLA VERREBBE SCOPERTO SUBITO...SAI PERCHE' RAFFAELE NON POTREBBE MAI MENTIRE? NON PERCHE' E' UN SANTO...MA PERCHE' NON E' CAPACE, NON HA MEMORIA... SAI QUANTE VOLTE MI ARRABBIO CON LUI PERCHE' ALLA MATTINA GLI DICO UNA COSA E AL POMERIGGIO NON SE LA RICORDA PIU'?!? SE LUI AVESSE FATTO QUALCOSA L'AVREBBERO SCOPERTO SUBITO, L'AVREBBERO FATTO CROLLARE E CONFESSARE SUBITO... IO HO UNA FIGLIA DI 19 ANNI CHE CONOSCE BENE RAF E LO ABBIAMO FREQUENTATO MOLTO SPESSO QUANDO ERA LIBERO...TU PENSI CHE UNA MAMMA LASCEREBBE LA PROPRIA FIGLIA CON UNO CHE ANCHE SOLO PUO' AVER COPERTO QUELLA CHE SAPEVA ESSERE UN'ASSASSINA?!?!? LUI HA CERCATO DI SAPERE LE COSE DA AMANDA ANCHE POCO TEMPO FA...MA LEI CONTINUA A NEGARE ANCHE CON LUI. JACK...CREDIMI...PER FAVORE

JACK ... PLEASE ... BELIEVE ME... I RESPECT YOU A LOT AND I WILL LIKE YOU TO BELIEVE ME. I KNOW THAT THE SITUATION DOES NOT CHANGE WHETHER YOU BELIEVE ME OR NOT, BUT PRECISELY BECAUSE I HAVE RESPECT FOR YOU I WANT YOU TO BELIEVE ME. RAFFAELE UP TO 12:30 NOVEMBER 2 HE DIDN’T KNOW ANYTHING... HE WAS NOT INVOLVE, HE DIDN’T HELP TO CLEAN UP... HE PROTECTED HER IN GOOD FAITH, THINKING THAT SHE HAD DONE NOTHING...BECAUSE SHE HAD NEVER CONFESSED TO HIM. SHE HAD SIMPLY TOLD HIM THAT SHE WAS AFRAID. HE WAS VERY STUPID TO SAY “THAT HE COULDN’T REMEMBER”... AND FOR THIS REASON IT IS RIGHT HE PAYS. BECAUSE WHEN IN THE MIDDLE OF IT THERE’S A MURDER THE “I DO NOT REMEMBER" SHOULD NOT EXIST... IT IS RIGHT/LEGITIMATE THAT HE GETS GIVEN THE FAVOREGGIAMENTO [CHARGED WITH HELPING A CRIMINAL-ABETTING]. I LOVE RAFFAELE, BUT WHAT IS JUST IS JUST. HE SHOULD HAVE CONFIRMED CLEARLY THAT SHE WENT OUT AND CAME BACK AROUND 01:00, LIKE HE DID AT THE BEGINNING. IT IS RIGHT THAT HE HAD TO DO PRISON TIME BECAUSE THE SENTENCE FOR FAVOREGGIAMENTO [HELPING A CRIMINAL] IT IS THAT WHAT HE ALREADY SERVED. HE MADE A MISTAKE BY SAYING “I DON’T REMEMBER”… BUT THAT IS HIS ONLY CRIME. HE IS DUMB… HE BELIEVE THAT DELINQUENT [AK]. BUT I SWEAR TO YOU, AND I’M TELLING YOU BECAUSE I KNOW HIM LIKE HE WAS MY BROTHER: IF RAFFAELE STEALS A SWEET WOULD BE FOUND OUT IMMEDIATELY… YOU KNOW BECAUSE RAFFAELE CANNOT LIE? NOT BECAUSE HE IS A SAINT… BUT BECAUSE HE IS NOT CAPABLE, HE LACKS MEMORY… DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I GET MAD AT HIM BECAUSE IN THE MORNING I TELL HIM SOMETHING AND BY NOON HE NO LONGER REMEMBERS?!? IF HE HAD DONE SOMETHING THEY WOULD HAVE DISCOVERED IT IMMEDIATELY. IT WOULD HAVE MADE HIM BUCKLE UNDER AND CONFESS IMMEDIATELY… I HAVE A 19 YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER WHO KNOWS RAF WELL AND WE HAVE SPEND A LOT OF TIME WITH HIM WHEN HE WAS FREED… YOU THINK THAT A MOTHER WOULD LEAVE HER OWN DAUGHTER WITH SOMEONE WHO COULD HAVE ALSO PROTECTED THE ONE THAT HE KNEW TO BE THE KILLER?!?!? HE HAS TRIED TO FIND THINGS OUT FROM AMANDA EVEN RECENTLY… BUT SHE CONTINUES TO DENY EVEN TO HIM. JACK… BELIEVE ME… PLEASE


Ciao Cristina, 
First of all I wish to apologise for my slow reply, I have been very busy with  work and have been near exhaustion. In relation to your email you know Raffaele as a person, I do not and I have no emotional attachment to him. I have studied the evidence unbiasedly and from a neautral perspective. Frankly your claim that the DNA on the bra clasp is not a match for Raffael's is wrong. At Hellmann's appeal trial the two court-appointed DNA experts, Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti, reviewed the testing of the bra clasp. Vecchiotti conceded in court that Sollecito's y-chromosome was on the clasp, the y-chromosome is unique to male members of a family and the y-chromosome test was usefull in seperating the positive DNA match for Sollecito to Meredith's DNA.
With respect to the autosomal DNA, Conti and Vecchiotti seem to be contesting four loci of the fifteen matches. Dr. Tagliabracci, a DNA defense expert who testified during the original trial, contested the same four loci plus an additional one. So even if all of the loci are conceded the Y chromosome places a Male Sollecito at the scene and having contact with the bra clasp.
In relation to your question about the DNA being located on the hook and not the fabric, DNA is not as easily transferred as people think. Raffaele's car did not yield any DNA, did he never drive it? It is the abrasive shape/nature of the hook that would have scraped the DNA from Raffaele. Raffaele's DNA is not in dispute the defence now try and argue contamination
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Heart breaking comments from Meredith's mother. She wants to visit Guede to get the truth. I very much doubt he will. Maybe after he realizes that nothing will change for him then he could say a few things about Meredith's last hours, but it will never be the whole truth.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -vain.html
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:44 pm   Post subject: FOR MEZ   

Courtesy Daffi Khan Cheeky Mez II

She asked that these pictures be spread world wide so we would all remember Meredith Kercher as she was.
Quote:
Daffi ‏@daffikhan 6:34 AM - 29 Mar 2015
Hard years waiting for the truth of what happened to our darling girl. We will always remember #MeredithKercher #Mez


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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

From Il Tempo:

Amanda "grateful." Meredith's family "in shock"

For Guede's attorney, it's a judgement that leaves him "indifferent". No comment on the ruling of the Supreme Court by Nicodemo Gentile, one of the lawyers of Rudy Guede, the Ivorian who is serving a sentence for the murder of Meredith Kercher. "We will comment - he says - when there's the motivation." "We - he adds - chose our path, so, as regards our story, this verdict leaves us indifferent." On the reaction of Rudy, Gentile refers not to have heard yet. "I guess he's learned about the acquittal from the media as all of us", he states.

The bitterness of the mayor of Perugia. "Maybe if the [flying squad] investigation and prosecution had been conducted otherwise, we would not have had seven years of violence." It is the bitterness expressed by the former mayor of Perugia, Wladimiro Boccali, mayor from 24 June 2009 to 8 June 2014, at the end of the long court case about the murder of Meredith Kercher, but he is keen to stress: "My first thoughts go to the girl who is no longer there and her family. My heart goes out to Meredith that has almost disappeared from the public view, I seem to have seen a process in which the memory of the victim has [completely] disappeared." And then he added: "Perugia was violated - says Boccali - by this story, and especially because there was this endless trial process, Sollecito's lawyer Bongiorno had even presented Perugia as a 'kasbah" [the citadel of a North African city - ndr] in some passages of her defense. There were also many false representations, far from reality, even in the press, and there are passages in some books that speak of "a Perugia of dark and narrow alleys", in negative terms, of being a walled medieval city instead of highlighting its beauty." So for the first citizen [of Perugia], "if in those days after the murder, they had not made so many mistakes in the investigation, errors that were prejudicial to the prosecution, we would not have had all this attention; in my city at certain times there were 400 newspapers, with journalists who ran into the streets hunting for a drug dealer ".


IL TEMPO
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Offline SwanseaJack


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The truth, is it too much to ask???


Last edited by SwanseaJack on Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline SwanseaJack


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Guede would only lie, they have had to listen to lies about Meredith's death for 7•5 years I feel bitterly disappointed for Merdith and her family this has been a heart wrenching few days.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Biting imagery Jester, very well done.


I wish you had been in court presenting angles, I'm sure you'd make a brilliant lawyer.

I do not think BonGiorno is so great at all, maybe judges are terrified of Sicilians, I don 't know but Sicily isn't quite known for being the place of enlightenment and gentleness, not with all of what has come from it.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:01 pm   Post subject: MEREDITH KERCHER: DAUGHTER, SISTER, FRIEND   

Picture courtesy Daffi Khan, Meredith Kercher's friend. This is how we should remember her.
Cheeky Mez III
Quote:
Daffi ‏@daffikhan 1:08 AM - 28 Mar 2015
Meredith Kercher - Daughter, Sister, Aunty and friend. Taken from us all. Remember her #MeredithKercher #OneLove


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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

JohnQ wrote:
Rumpole wrote:
We shouldn't forget that they spent 4 years in prison so some justice was done (for those who see them as guilty obviously). And as I've mentioned before in my country 8 years is about what young 20-year-olds would get for a manslaughter (most killings of this type are prosecuted as manslaughters here unless clear premeditation can be shown or extreme cruelty is involved) and they would have been out in 4 years as first time offenders.

And so even if they were acquitted they didn't get away with it totally as they've spent years in prison and this case has been going on for 7,5 years in different courts. So it has affected their lives and they have paid some small price for it.

ETA: corrected typos.


15 minutes of torture with knives and a gang rape isn't "extreme cruelty"? Okey-dokey.

Hi John.
It wasn't my opinion, just an observation of how our system works and unfortunately most stabbings are prosecuted as manslaughters here.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I walked away.....didn't get far. There is something fundamentally necessary for my own spiritual well-being, that makes me want to hang in, hold on until I know that the Kerchers have reached a level of peace in their lives. Nothing more I can say.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Amanda and Raffaele acquitted: figuraccia [from "figurato" = brutta figura] of the SC judges broadcast worldwide
By Andrea Asole

Leaving aside individual opinions about the veracity of innocence, that rain from all sides when a judicial case like this one ends up in the spotlight, the path that led both to an acquittal is somewhat convoluted.
[...]
Hard not to notice the big anomaly: how is it possible that there have been five judgments that contradict each other? Were there new elements in the discussion phase, you might think, but no: all five sentences were issued with the same evidence. How was it possible that the same elements led to outcomes so discordant with each other? But above all, let's assume that the prosecution had had insufficient material in hand: how is it that with a lack of evidence we have come to two sentences, one heavier than the other? Suppose also, namely, that those tests were sufficiently full-bodied, if what the investigators had in hand was more than enough, how was it possible to get to two acquittals including the final one?
[...]
Evidently the alleged traces of the two (sic) accused on Meredith's bra were not certain and definitive proof that instead had passed off as such. Another thing to consider: Rudi Guede, the only convicted of the crime, never mentioned the name of Amanda and Raffaele either during interrogations or during the trial.
[...]
Before the world, the judiciary has made a fool of itself because it has shown all the flaws of the Italian criminal justice and also the absurdity of its contradictions.

A fool also before Italians, for now, because of strong contradictory judgments, many will assume some US influence in the verdict of acquittal: but if that were true, it wouldn't explain why the Supreme Court ordered a retrial after an appeal of the first acquittal...
[...]
Final note: Amanda has already made it known that she will present to Italy a claim for damages: guess who will have to pay, if it's granted? No, wrong, not the magistrates.


QELSI QUOTIDIANO
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Offline tamale


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I walked away.....didn't get far. There is something fundamentally necessary for my own spiritual well-being, that makes me want to hang in, hold on until I know that the Kerchers have reached a level of peace in their lives. Nothing more I can say.

I feel the same way.. :?:
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hellmann relishes the SC verdict as he talks to reporters:

The collective euphoria involves Claudio Pratillo Hellmann, president of the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Perugia in 2011 which absolved Amanda and Raffaele of the charge of having murdered Meredith Kercher. "Obviously - responds to those who ask for comment on the outcome of the Supreme Court - we were right."

"There was a hope, after so many judicial errors committed by other judges, and the Court of Cassation has shown that there is still justice in Italy," added the judge, now retired. "I'm happy - said the former president of the Court - because a miscarriage of justice has been avoided and those two unfortunate [individuals], Amanda and Raffaele, have come out innocent. I do not hide my personal satisfaction because our judgment had been so mistreated."


Comments from Giancarlo Costagliola, PG in the first appeal trial:

"I'm curious to read the ruling," said Assistant Attorney General of Perugia Giancarlo Costagliola. "I take note of the decision - said the magistrate - and I have the utmost respect for the decisions of the Court." Costagliola represented the prosecution on appeal together with Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comodi.


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Offline SwanseaJack


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Hellmann relishes the SC verdict as he talks to reporters:

The collective euphoria involves Claudio Pratillo Hellmann, president of the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Perugia in 2011 which absolved Amanda and Raffaele of the charge of having murdered Meredith Kercher. "Obviously - responds to those who ask for comment on the outcome of the Supreme Court - we were right."

"There was a hope, after so many judicial errors committed by other judges, and the Court of Cassation has shown that there is still justice in Italy," added the judge, now retired. "I'm happy - said the former president of the Court - because a miscarriage of justice has been avoided and those two unfortunate [individuals], Amanda and Raffaele, have come out innocent. I do not hide my personal satisfaction because our judgment had been so mistreated."


Comments from Giancarlo Costagliola, PG in the first appeal trial:

"I'm curious to read the ruling," said Assistant Attorney General of Perugia Giancarlo Costagliola. "I take note of the decision - said the magistrate - and I have the utmost respect for the decisions of the Court." Costagliola represented the prosecution on appeal together with Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comodi.


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Typical of Hellmann to relish in this farcical acquital. I am very much looking forward to reading the judges report to see just how they explain failing Meredith. Reading Nencini and Cassazione report makes you seriously question how the hell did this court come to this conclusion and more intriguingly how are they going to justify it?
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sollecito is still whining and complaining, even after exoneration: wa-))

29 March 2015
After the acquittal
Raffaele Sollecito: "My life is suspended, here is what I will do now"

"Nothing can compensate me for what I went through," says Raffaele Sollecito, a day after the ruling of the Supreme Court, which acquitted him, in an interview with La Repubblica: "Someone once said that Rudy Guede was the only one paying for the death of Meredith, but, for seven years, I have had a suspended life, I have lived with the fear of being arrested knowing I'm innocent." And then: "It is not easy even in this time to listen to certain words that are attributable only to a terrible fantasy and that are actually only lies, I always tried to respond to the allegations that were made against me with the truth of the evidence. In the documentation and investigation of the facts, there is nothing against me and Amanda. And those tests that had been defined from the beginning as being certain proved to be erroneous. I have lived with the fear of not being able to have a future, I couldn't make any long-term plans but was forced to think in terms of temporal spaces that did not exceed three days."

Compensation - As for the claim [for damages], (Amanda already indicated that she will ask for compensation) explains: "It will be up to my lawyers to decide. To me it would be enough if the judicial system recognized the responsibility of those who commit grave errors like the ones made in my convictions. And above all I wish what happened to me would not happen to others. Judicial errors had been committed in the past but many also hope that what happened to me would not happen to any other person. I knew nothing of judgments and tribunals, I had no idea what a 'judicial inquiry' was. I was catapulted into hell again, something I had never even imagined but I've dealt with it by knowing I'm innocent ... ".

Amanda - He doesn't want to talk about Knox but explains that she "through her lawyers, sent me a greeting from the United States. I was delighted of course but I won't say more. I do not want to talk about these things, of my relationship with her." And for the future, he says: "My plan is to begin to live without fear and to start up a company and to implement projects that until recently were only assumptions and which were in danger of being interrupted from one moment to the next. I want to finally start building a future for myself. Now that my innocence has been recognized, I can do it."


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I'm just wondering how Knox thinks she stands any chance of getting any compensation while she sticks her fingers up at the Italian courts and refuses their order to pay Patrick Lumumba what she owes him.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

There is an article in The Sunday Times where Maresca is quoted as saying “This is not so much a defeat for the prosecution as a defeat for Italy’s justice system. The judges said there is a lack of proof and whoever acted with Guede has not been found.

I have not seen this reported anywhere else. It seems the SC ruled on the merits of the evidence and not on points of law. We will know more once the motivations report becomes available. It is also reported and acknowledged in this article by Knox's lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova that this SC decision has no precedent.

I also noticed that Guede was upgraded from "drifter" to "unemployed basketball player".
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Have you heard about this?

The FBI is investigating serious death threats from Britain to kill Amanda Knox, the Sun newspaper reports.

Just hours after an Italian court cleared Knox of the murder of her British roommate the FBI is investigating serious death threats from Britain to kill Amanda Knox, the Sun newspaper reports.

The source told the Sun that Knox, 27, knows who is threatening her and is being protected by bodyguards.

“We’ve been given reason to believe they have the ability to carry out their threats,” the source said. “We know who it is and their address." The FBI is investigating.“The vast majority of internet trolls harassing Amanda are British.”


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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I hope the body guards are expensive.

Personally, I think it's just another stunt to paint Knox as a victim and drum up sympathy for her while also painting anyone that is critical of her as some sort of violent nutcase...as well as foreign. They're trying to make this about flags again by playing the nationalism card. The claim that the majority of those who have an issue with Knox are British, is blatantly false.

Supposedly, this "British" person has the ability to bump her off from all the way over in Britain. Who is it supposed to be, James bloody Bond?!

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

If true, it falls under the heading of the downside of being a celebrity. Oh well. I have nothing more to say about this, either.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
I hope the body guards are expensive.

Personally, I think it's just another stunt to paint Knox as a victim and drum up sympathy for her while also painting anyone that is critical of her as some sort of violent nutcase...as well as foreign. They're trying to make this about flags again by playing the nationalism card. The claim that the majority of those who have an issue with Knox are British, is blatantly false.

Supposedly, this "British" person has the ability to bump her off from all the way over in Britain. Who is it supposed to be, James bloody Bond?!


I agree with Michael.

I have not seen any threats online and most criticism directed at the verdict and her persona comes from Italy as far as I can see. The Italians are very disappointed with this verdict, understandably. Amanda Knox is Italian's O.J. Simpson.

Even if she has now been legally cleared from the murder charges by the Supreme Court, it cannot be ignored that this decision was unprecedented, controversial and unpopular. She claims to have received death threats and what does she do? She announces publicly she plans to return to Italy to write a book about their justice system. Go figure! She does not seem to take these threats very seriously herself, otherwise she would keep a low profile and stop stirring the pot.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:39 am   Post subject: MUSIC TO SOOTHE THE SOUL   

Thanks to Rebel at ORG for this Nocturne by Chopin.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Who is it supposed to be, James bloody Bond?!

:)

Luca Maori doesn't look too pleased in this photo, taken Friday night after an announcement of the SC ruling. I believe he knows full well that Sollecito is guilty.

Attachment:
Maori and Bongiorno after the SC acquittal.jpg
Raffaele Sollecito's lawyer Giulia Bongiorno talks to journalists as she leaves Italy's highest court building in Rome yesterday.
Picture: Getty
Shock at ‘odd’ overturn of Amanda Knox conviction

In one picture that I have seen of Sollecito so far, he doesn't look very happy, either. On second thought, you know, perhaps the acquittals were the 'best' thing that could have happened to them. Since they KNOW they are guilty, they won't have a moment of peace when they are with others or alone with themselves, and their guilty conscience (if they have one) will be nagging at them, like an intestinal worm, from inside. ;) It may be worse than being in jail.


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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
In one picture that I have seen of Sollecito so far, he doesn't look very happy, either. On second thought, you know, perhaps the acquittals were the 'best' thing that could have happened to them. Since they KNOW they are guilty, they won't have a moment of peace when they are with others or alone with themselves, and their guilty conscience (if they have one) will be nagging at them, like an intestinal worm, from inside. ;) It may be worse that being in jail.

That would be true if they were normal. I don't think they care at all. It was always me, me, me and there was never any sign of remorse. Since Knox just likes to talk and brag she always needs to be watched. Her mother will always keep a close watch on her. That other people know what Knox has done is the only thing Knox will ever care about. There are many. I am sure the wiki will always be there to let people know.
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Offline tamale


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:33 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thanks to the groovy mods..
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Rudy Guede basically repeating he will never tell the truth and wants to move on with his life. The little comment about AK and RS says enough though. Strange thing is that he supposedly said these things before the SC ruling.

Guede, the only one in jail for the crime "Case closed, forget me"
"I eight years ago I told my truth, if for judges is not reliable, I can only take note: the case is finally closed for me."
"if Amanda and Raffaele are free to start a new life, I hope to do the same"
http://www.lastampa.it/2015/03/29/itali ... agina.html
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Offline Dee71


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi everyone.

I just wanted to come on here and say how totally devastated I am for Meredith’s friends and family. I spent all weekend thinking about them and trying to imagine how it must feel for them. My heart breaks for them and I have been fighting back tears for them all weekend – not altogether successfully I might add!

Although I am not a poster as I don’t really have much to add in terms of information and discussion, I felt it was important for me to come and show my support. I’ve learnt that, in times of hurt, it helps to know that there are people who are hurting with you.

I also spent a lot of time thinking about how it must feel for everyone who has been fighting for so long for truth and justice on behalf of Meredith and her family. I’ve been reading all the posts on here, PMF.org, TJMK and twitter, and to see how everyone is supporting and encouraging each other is incredible. I also see how the determination to continue the fight has been strengthened as a result of this.

I can’t bear to watch anything at the moment but I can bear to read, and I want you to know that the comments are overwhelmingly those expressing their belief in the guilt of AK and RS. Here’s a snippet from a comment on the Statement Analysis website that caught my eye:

“ … I’ve been trying to play catch up via ‘themurderofmeredithkercher …”

(the poster believes AK was there and expresses confusion about where the 'sex game gone wrong' comes from)

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogI ... 4970192500

I think this is incredibly encouraging!!! Every one is commenting on AK’s “I’m the lucky one” quote and can’t believe she uttered those words. Every time she opens her mouth, more and more people are unnerved and see a liar. And then they go searching for information. And when they do, there you all are, front and centre, providing all the information to allow them to find the truth.

So please be encouraged. I will continue to play my tiny, tiny part in all of this and please know that there are many people who may not be vocal on forums but that support you all in your journey on the way to justice for Meredith.

Dee

(Sorry for the long post)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:39 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

You're welcome, Dee71, and thanks for your kind words. The justice system of Italy failed, but, thanks to the work of this community, the truth didn't.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Raffaele Sollecito Press Conference

Oggi published an article about Raffaele Sollecito's press conference and according to the article Sollecito threatens to defend himself (with legal action, I presume) against anyone who dares to call him a "murderer", "someone who has gotten away with murder unpunished" or even as much as being labelled a "suspect".

According to some tweets he also said that he does not understand why the Kerchers are surprised at his acquittal, but I have not been able to confirm that with another source so far.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Another article by Fiorenza Sarzanini published in Corriere about the decision of the five judges to overrule the guilty verdict.

If this information is correct, it seems to me that Jackie got it right when he speculated that the judges found it would be futile and not in the interest of the people to send the case back again to a lower court. He wrote about this on .org.

If the decision was unanimous and they all agreed that the evidence ("clues") was nonsense, why did it take them so long to come to a decision?


Quote:
ANALYSIS
Meredith murder: "Needless to another process of Amanda and Raffaele"
The unanimous decision in chambers "Tests too contradictory so another process is useless"

by FIORENZA SARZANINI

ROME - A new trial would not have been able to ascertain the truth about the murder of Meredith Kercher. The "complex evidence was so contradictory" to make it impossible to overcome the doubts and inconsistencies. For this, after eight hours of discussion, the judges of the fifth section of the Court of Cassation, were all in agreement on cancellation of the sentence to 28 years and six months for Amanda Knox and Raffaele 25 years "without referral." "Nonsense," This is the shared line, would be "to have a new trial relying on clues so fleeting."

Eight years without truth
The board chaired by Gennaro Marasca also considered "non-binding" the earlier ruling of the Supreme Court that in March two years ago had ordered a new trial, in the belief that their pronunciation were to evaluate only the verdict reached on appeal in Florence January 30 a year ago, the one for which Amanda and Raffaele were convicted of murder. Therefore closes forever the chance to find out what really happened in the house on Via della Pergola November 1st 2007. The only remains responsible Rudy Guede, who was sentenced to sixteen years in prison and - after having discounted almost half - ready to ask for permission to work outside. Eight long years have not been enough to shed light on the dark sides of a story that is still marked by too many mysteries. And they are at least four questions remained unsolved, which now seems impossible to find convincing answers.

The room
On the evening of that Thursday Meredith comes home and she's definitely Rudy. But what happens next? According to the sentence dell'ivoriano, there are at least two "competitors." The judges of the Supreme Court on 26 December 2013 asking the Court of Assizes of Florence to locate them and they write: "We must remedy, in the widest powers of discretion, the critical aspects of argument by making a comprehensive examination and unitary clues », then specifying the need to" add and integrate each clue with others. " Then added: "The outcome of this assessment will be decisive not only osmotic to demonstrate the presence of the two defendants to the crime scene, but eventually delineate the subjective position of the competitors of Guede." A goal that obviously was not achieved. Expertise coroner found that Meredith has suffered sexual harassment and died after being wounded with some stab wounds, a blow to the throat launched. No one, at this point, can tell if Rudy Guede did everything by himself or whether someone has helped to immobilize the English girl and then he struck the fatal blow.

The weapon
It is certainly one of the most controversial. The murder weapon is identified by prosecutors in a knife seized in the kitchen at home of Raffaele Sollecito. The genetic investigations are traces of the DNA of Amanda on the blade and this convinces the accusation that the young American has used to kill her roommate. Motivating the sentence judges Florentine write, however, that "the victim was hit with two knives." According to them "the weapon that produced the wound on the left side of the neck and caused the death was contested by Amanda and it is the knife seized at the home of Raphael" while the wounds on the right side were caused by a "smaller knife challenged by Raphael, "but they say nothing about the origin of the weapon, to where it had been taken and, above all, where she is.

The motive
The first to speak of "erotic game degenerated" as a motive of the crime were prosecutors, comforted by the different judges who had confirmed the prosecution's case. The idea was born from the certainty that Rudy had had sex with Meredith - as demonstrated by the autopsy - was however not supported by other elements and this led the judges to Florence to draw a different scenario.

In the sentence issued a year ago there was talk of "progressive aggression" sparked by an argument, which resulted in a sexual assault and ended with the murder because the victim, who had been "humiliated and preempted," the end "had to be put in a position of not reporting» . A reconstruction that the Supreme Court has held now - obviously - not supported by any evidence.

The memorial
Says Amanda wrote in the memorial at the police station, five days after the murder, and then recanted: "I and Patrick Lumumba (arrested, but later released from prison and acquitted ed) we met at around 21 and we went to my house. I do not remember exactly when my friend Meredith was already in the house or if you come later, I can say is that Patrick and Meredith are secluded in Meredith's room, while I think that I was in the kitchen. I can not remember how long they were together in the room but I can only say that at one point I heard Meredith screaming and I scared, I covered my ears. Then do not remember anything, I have a great deal of confusion in the head. I do not remember if Meredith screaming and if I heard thuds also because I was upset, but imagine what could have happened. I'm not sure if it was also Raffaele that night, but I remember waking up to my boyfriend's house, in his bed, and that I'm back in the morning in my home where I found the apartment door open. " Amanda describes the crime, but instead of Rudy puts the crime scene Lumumba, who was also young, Uganda, and color. How so? Can be just a coincidence? Certainly this is the question to which no one has ever been able to give a convincing answer.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:53 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE!   

Administrator Note:


This is a formal announcement that from this point forward, the experiment that was FOAKer Tuesday is now canceled. In light of the recent judgment, I no longer see any value in it. We are not interested in what FOAKers have to say at this point and they are no longer welcome here, our two camps will never be reconciled and this board should be a haven for those with an honest interest in justice, truth and the well being of the Kerchers only. It is hardly a deprivation, as there is no shortage of online venues where the FOAKers are able to post and supporters of Meredith can engage with them if they wish. There is, in my view, no longer anything to debate with those concerned only with agenda. This site's purpose is to embody the spirit of Meredith and it will no longer be stained by those that have sought to undermine her from the very beginning.

Thank You

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thanks Michael. We won't miss them (Diocletian & Co.)
---------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone wants to see a picture of Sollecito and Bongiorno at their presser, here's the link:

http://www.todayonline.com/world/europe ... acquittals

As I said before, not a lot of joy on their faces. I wonder why?

Here's how a person, who has been falsely accused of murder, reacts to exoneration and release from prison:

Attachment:
Lumumba released from prison.jpg


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Offline Back4theend


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi all

I've been around, lurking, reading, writing for a long time. The judgement was a shock! But u have found the silver lining. Everyone thinks she is guilty, the media hints that she got away with murder. Isn't this punishment in itself?

When they were jailed, it was widely believed that they were innocent! That was a lot more painful than the current situation. Ino of course

Being outcast by society is really the worst punishment

I hope the sketchers, who have respected the process thus far, speak up now. Let everyone see the evidence. Let everyone know. Just like OJ! He was never a free man and these two should never be given full freedom. They are not exonerated, just not guilty.

I remember when I was falsely accused, the prosecution (in England so they are seperate to the police) stood up and said there was a mistake, I was the victim. At that moment I saw people smiling at me - and that was a better moment than the not guilty verdict. I felt the truth was out. Up till then I had been so ashamed of the accusations. For me it was more important that I was logically not guilty rather than a legal technicality. I believe that is th only ultimate freedom.

What triggered my post was an American lady I met who lives in Italy and knows Perugia well. She told me that the feeling was shared by everyone and unprompted she told me AK was not well respected in the US. This is the prison AK and RS will live in. Hiding from the truth for vet. Unless of course they can finally answer the hundreds of questions.

Legally not guilty is NoT the same as innocent
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

There is an explosion of angry posts from Italians on his FB page , he really should close up shop.
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Offline Back4theend


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Kercher who had respected - sorry that was auto correcf
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Google translation of an article from Corriere del Mezzogiorno:

"Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, the evidence was insufficient"
The doubts of Gennaro Marasca, the Neapolitan judge who presided over the Court
of Cassation that acquitted the two accused of the murder of Meredith in Perugia
By Gianluca Abate

Attachment:
Gennaro Marasca, President of the Supreme Court.jpg


Someone like him, someone who has spent a whole career to stigmatize "the judges who speak with journalists" (the last time he did it in the Council of the Supreme Court, criticizing his colleague Antonio Esposito for the interview after conviction of Silvio Berlusconi), so it is certainly not the magistrate to let go to interviews after the ruling that has split Italy sending finally acquitted Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, defendants in the trial for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher. Yet, despite the reluctance, the judge was unable to avoid phone calls from colleagues and friends from Naples, all looking (unsuccessfully) for a few details. And now, for the President of the Fifth Chamber of the Supreme Court that issued the ruling two days ago is a judge of Naples, Gennaro Marasca, one of the best known togas in the city. He, with the grace of all time, has run limited to respond to all that talk about the judgment, but that many things can already say the 'dispositivo' issued at the end of the process. What acquitted Amanda and Raffaele in exactly the same manner in which was acquitted former senator for life Giulio Andreotti, ie applying the second paragraph of Article 530 of the Criminal Procedure Code. There is, in this explanation of Marasca, most of the reasons for the judgment, since the standard states that "the judge pronounces acquittal when there is insufficient or contradictory evidence that the fact exists or that defendant has committed it." And, not surprisingly, the Palazzaccio of Piazza Cavour in Rome, it is noted that an article of the law is rarely indicated (as in this case) in a device (dispositivo) of the Court of Cassation.

Excellence

And to say that Marasca, in those courtrooms, even had to get there. Not demerits, of course (he is considered to be one of the best Neapolitan judges, and not coincidentally January 25, 2014 the Attorney Nola Paolo Mancuso cited him among the "excellent" [judges] beside Carlo Alemi, Giuseppe Fusco and Nino Vacca), but because his aspiration - four years ago - was to be appointed Attorney General of Naples. He also made a formal request to the CSM, but was rejected. The reason? It happened that, in the country where the judges will restock after toga after making policy, the Supreme Judicial Council decided not to appoint him because "should not be overlooked - it said in the written report - that Marasca held for several years, after 1994, the post of a City councilor during the junta era of Antonio Bassolino."

"Justice has been done: it is our job."

That way, today, is forgotten Marasca has repeatedly stated that "the Supreme Court is the job I like," because - he confided to some colleagues - [it] is the place where "we try to apply the law sometimes forgotten in local offices." And, as a magistrate, Marasca was able to sail through and govern even the sudden popularity in Italy divided between those who cheered for the acquittal of Amanda and Raffaele and who contested the decision. Him, to those who asked if justice had been done, he replied that a court must base its decision on elements of procedure, and that therefore "justice had been done only because we did our job." Of course, the easiest solution would have been to set aside the judgment of appeal by ordering a new trial, but the "insufficient evidence" was judged "unbridgeable" even if time were to pass. So - said the Chairman to [his] colleagues - if those are the elements, "why the need to do another job [to re-do an appeal]?". "Justice has been done:[it] is our business."


CORRIERE DEL MEZZOGIORNO

So, the SC judges applied the same article as in the acquittal of Andreotti? Very curious indeed...


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

A more elegant translation by Kermit:

"Amanda and Raffaele were acquitted in exactly the same manner in which former senator-for-life Giulio Andreotti was acquitted, that is, applying the second paragraph of Article 530 of the Criminal Procedure Code. It is here, in Marasca's explanation, where one finds most of the reasons for his judgment, since the (legal) norms require that "the judge pronounces an acquittal when there is missing, insufficient or contradictory evidence to prove the existence of the accusation or that the defendant has committed it."
....
Of course, the easiest solution would have been to annul (vacate) the appeals verdict by setting up a new trial, but the "insufficient evidence" was judged "unbridgeable" even time were to pass. So - said the President of the Court to my/our/his colleagues (Kermit: I believe the reference is to the writer's journalistic colleagues) - if those are the (judicial) elements, "why do we need to have another trial?"."


http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewto ... 21#p185921
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

People at .org are asking some legitimate questions we all would like to ask:

Vivianna wrote:
First of all, did Marasca & Co. have the authority to rule on a previous SC ruling if their mandate was limited to the Nencini appeal?

Secondly, why would they bother to consider the previous ruling as non-binding, if the previous ruling requested a new appeal (i.e. Nencini) and they wanted to rule strictly on the merits of the Nencini verdict? I feel like a contradiction is implied, but I just don't see wherein it lies.

And if their self-professed intention was to evaluate Nencini, then what exactly were they doing evaluating the entire body of evidence?

Or does the "non binding" part refer to the fact that they were not allowed to follow the same line of reasoning as Hellmann, when in effect they needed to rehash Hellmann to justify their verdict?


http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewto ... 98#p185898

I hope other Supreme Court judges, who ruled earlier on the case, will read Marasca's "Motivations" and ask him these same questions or discuss his court's decision with their colleagues. Are Supreme Court justices considered to be infallible? It would be nice to have some sort of internal review of their decision.
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Offline PK777


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The judges said "there is a lack of proof and whoever acted with Guede has not been found.”

So is it now caso aperto ?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
A more elegant translation by Kermit:

"Amanda and Raffaele were acquitted in exactly the same manner in which former senator-for-life Giulio Andreotti was acquitted, that is, applying the second paragraph of Article 530 of the Criminal Procedure Code. It is here, in Marasca's explanation, where one finds most of the reasons for his judgment, since the (legal) norms require that "the judge pronounces an acquittal when there is missing, insufficient or contradictory evidence to prove the existence of the accusation or that the defendant has committed it."
....
Of course, the easiest solution would have been to annul (vacate) the appeals verdict by setting up a new trial, but the "insufficient evidence" was judged "unbridgeable" even time were to pass. So - said the President of the Court to my/our/his colleagues (Kermit: I believe the reference is to the writer's journalistic colleagues) - if those are the (judicial) elements, "why do we need to have another trial?"."


http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewto ... 21#p185921



He REALLY compared their case and method of dispensing with it to that of Andreotti???

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Offline tamale


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Napia5 wrote:
I'm so sad.

This past year has been filled with physical challenges and emotional tumult for me, and, because of this, I chose to step away for awhile, to regroup, to recuperate, and deal with life on it's terms. I got to choose.

Right now, frustrated, disgusted, and thoroughly saddened, I get to choose. I can shut down, shut off, walk away, turn my back and move on. Sadder, wiser (maybe just a little), but, nonetheless, able to choose to close this portion of my life. I get to choose.

The Kerchers never had a choice. Their beautiful precious Meredith was torn from their family, and from that day to this, have, because of the singular fact that it was their beloved daughter that was murdered, been exposed to the most vile, inhumane treatment I have ever witnessed. They didn't have a choice.

I will carry a piece of this family with me in my heart forever. Their dignity and grace was and forever will be, inspiring. This, I don't get to choose. It's there. It changed me. It sustains me.

Where ever you are, I wish you the best.

The Kercher Family

Thank you, Kercher family. God be with you all.
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Offline olleosnep


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
guermantes wrote:
A more elegant translation by Kermit:

"Amanda and Raffaele were acquitted in exactly the same manner in which former senator-for-life Giulio Andreotti was acquitted, that is, applying the second paragraph of Article 530 of the Criminal Procedure Code. It is here, in Marasca's explanation, where one finds most of the reasons for his judgment, since the (legal) norms require that "the judge pronounces an acquittal when there is missing, insufficient or contradictory evidence to prove the existence of the accusation or that the defendant has committed it."
....
Of course, the easiest solution would have been to annul (vacate) the appeals verdict by setting up a new trial, but the "insufficient evidence" was judged "unbridgeable" even time were to pass. So - said the President of the Court to my/our/his colleagues (Kermit: I believe the reference is to the writer's journalistic colleagues) - if those are the (judicial) elements, "why do we need to have another trial?"."


http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewto ... 21#p185921


He REALLY compared their case and method of dispensing with it to that of Andreotti???


It seems like it, which would make him dimmer than Hellmann, to put it charitably. And the fact that his team apparently ignored no less than 3 prior Cassazione rulings is really jarring. Mah! We'll see what the report says.
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
guermantes wrote:
A more elegant translation by Kermit:

"Amanda and Raffaele were acquitted in exactly the same manner in which former senator-for-life Giulio Andreotti was acquitted, that is, applying the second paragraph of Article 530 of the Criminal Procedure Code. It is here, in Marasca's explanation, where one finds most of the reasons for his judgment, since the (legal) norms require that "the judge pronounces an acquittal when there is missing, insufficient or contradictory evidence to prove the existence of the accusation or that the defendant has committed it."
....
Of course, the easiest solution would have been to annul (vacate) the appeals verdict by setting up a new trial, but the "insufficient evidence" was judged "unbridgeable" even time were to pass. So - said the President of the Court to my/our/his colleagues (Kermit: I believe the reference is to the writer's journalistic colleagues) - if those are the (judicial) elements, "why do we need to have another trial?"."


http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewto ... 21#p185921



He REALLY compared their case and method of dispensing with it to that of Andreotti???

Which reminds me that the word "omertoso", mafia code of silence, was mentioned in Oreste Volturno's testimony (translated by Catnip) when discussing the apparent unwillingness of Sollecito's former headmaster to talk about the possible scissor attack against a schoolmate:

Oreste Volturno's Testimony wrote:
GM: What were you supposed to have been doing?

OV: Whether there had been the wounding of a girl on the part of Raffaele Sollecito during the course of school lessons. I preface this with the headmaster of the middle school, at the time the headmaster of the middle school attended by Raffaele Sollecito, that he had also been interviewed for summary information [SI][2] by me personally, he provided a certain resistance, as if he wanted to hide something. This I believe I also had him…

GB: Mr President, these are…

GCM: Maybe if you can refer to the behavior he had displayed.

GB: Mr President, also as to the modality, for heaven’s sake, I don’t believe it’s a prohibition that they are referring to things heard in interview, but if they are however witnesses heard in interview, then they have to be heard or not or he gives us a summary and then we hear them or else he really avoids commenting every time.

OV: Counsel, I have said in summary what I have heard and in my view it was omertoso[3].

GB: No, look that this cannot be put into the transcript!

GCM: Please! The parties will direct…

OV: He was a little bit reticent.

CGM: Let’s avoid this, “in my opinion” introduces an evaluation and therefore he cannot express it, only the behavior that he displayed, maybe if he has answered all questions or else some question he hasn't.

OV: He answered all questions, but in a very vague manner.

3) ↑ Mafia code of silence.
http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/O ... y_(English)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Omerta is very much a broad Italian cultural trait, not limited only to the mafia.

Of course though, we already knew Papa Sollecito has mafia connections with by his nickname "Urologist to the Dons", so we don't have to go too deep to see such potential connections.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:43 pm   Post subject: ADMINISTRATOR NOTE!   

Administrator Note:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Finally, some good news!!!:

Amanda Knox: The fine line between guilt and innocence

By Barbie Nadeau, CNN

Updated 1110 GMT (1810 HKT) March 30, 2015


False imprisonment

Knox and Sollecito both spent four years in prison during their initial trial and first appeal. They applied to Italy's high court to be put under house arrest but because Knox was a foreigner and deemed a flight risk, they were both denied.

Sollecito may now have cause to sue Italy for false imprisonment. Italy pays around €12 million every year for locking up people who are later cleared of charges, according to Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi who is introduced measures to reform the judicial system.

But, Canestrini says if Sollecito at any time lied to investigators before he was arrested, he may forfeit his right to reimbursement for being held. Sollecito changed his story more than once before finally settling on an alibi with Knox, so a legal battle could focus on whether anything he told investigators led directly to his arrest.

Canestrini also says that Knox could potentially sue Italy for one year of false imprisonment, but because she admittedly lied to investigators early on which led to her arrest, she would likely not have much of a case.

"Because she initially admitted to a role in the crime, she wouldn't likely win. If a suspect lies to investigators before they are arrested, it is difficult to prove they were falsely imprisoned," Canestrini says.

In one of her initial interrogations in 2007, she told investigators she was in the house when Kercher was killed at which time she accused Patrick Lumumba, her boss at a pub where she worked, of the murder.

She later recanted that statement, but Lumumba spent two weeks in prison because of her false claim.

In 2013, Italy's high court ruled definitively on a slander charge against her for the false accusation and upheld a three-year prison term and ordered her to pay Lumumba $40,000 euro.



CNN

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The bullying of the Kerchers continues in the name of Amanda Knox


Bruce Fischer and his cohorts are now trying to force the poor Kerchers to support Amanda Knox. They try to shame them for "not speaking up for her". From an article published by Francesco Luna on one of Bruce Fischer's websites Wrongful Conviction News:

Quote:
The pain of the Kerchers for the tragic, horrible loss of Meredith is immense and deserves respect. But now time has come for them to come forward and exit from ambiguity. They are good people and they don’t want other lives to be taken because of this tragedy. They have now a responsibility that they cannot ignore: to avoid more violence and more tragedy. There is a large group of people who have been relentlessly threatening and insulting Amanda Knox since this story began, in 2007. They have grown more and more violent and aggressive, but until last Friday, 27 March 2015, they had a goal: to see Amanda convicted for Meredith’s murder. Now that the Italian Supreme Court has officially said that Amanda is not responsible for that murder, they are really going crazy.

[...]

Kerchers’ remarks after Friday’s verdict are not in the right direction. Saying that they don’t understand the SC’s decision is not acceptable. They understand it, it’s just they don’t want to. The decision is very clear: Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are not those the Kerchers thought they were. They did not kill Meredith. Repeating that they “don’t understand” and that they are “surprised and shocked” does not help and is not right. There is really nothing to understand, it is extremely simple. Rudy Guede killed their daughter and sister: he was robbing her apartment when she returned home and he brutally murdered her.

It is time to end this tragic saga and to avoid more senseless crime. The Kerchers are the only ones who can do it. Whoever can reach out to them, should explain this to them. They need to say clearly that they accept the decision and that they will not support any act of violence, hate, aggressiveness towards the former defendants. And they have to do it now. Before it’s too late.
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Offline astro


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Still in shock over this final verdict which can only be explained as the result of corruption. Someone said that if one judge can be proven corrupt that it could nullify this verdict... I hope those who can prove this come forward and correct this egregious error of judgement.

Everyone in the world knows something is wrong with this final decision. It is not like some new evidence came out clearing them of guilt. To try to claim reasonable doubt is weak after 8 years which proved the guilt of these murderers over and over in the courts. Combined with the online harassment and abuse by FOAkers of the murder victim's family, female journalists, and others.

Congrats on being the Italian version of OJ! (At least OJ wasn't allowed to earn millions from his crime.)
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Where are all of these violent people who are going crazy? On websites? Here? .org? TJMK?
I haven't seen any.

Anyway, I thought that the FBI already had the addresses of those responsible. Aren't they on top of this?
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Where are all of these violent people who are going crazy? On websites? Here? .org? TJMK?
I haven't seen any.

Anyway, I thought that the FBI already had the addresses of those responsible. Aren't they on top of this?


It seems to be Amanda Knox supporters are spinning out of control, not those supporting the Kerchers. I have seen many insulting messages online and they were written by Amanda Knox supporters and directed at those who criticised the verdict and expressed they still believed Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to be guilty and that seems to be the heart of the problem.

Since the verdict, I have seen Amanda Knox supporters publish personal details on Twitter from people debating the case. Approximate locations as well, which makes Amanda Knox's claims of harrassment the more ridiculous.

Amanda Knox was not found 'innocent', she was acquitted based on a lack of evidence and that is debatable as her former convictions prove. If we can believe the press reports so far, not even the judges who acquitted them argued that. They spoke of contradicting or conflicting evidence if I remember correctly. There is no proof of innocence and there never will be.
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Offline zinnia


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sorta long post, sorry, I can't get it out of my head...

I am so distressed for the Kercher family. I thoroughly believe the evidence is sufficient to not let the two murderers go free. I have been thinking the past few days about my own offspring, and how vibrant, caring (not carefree mind you), intelligent, and empathetic she is, and how lucky I am to have her. This is how Meredith would have been, and having these two as assets to humanity instead of one would make the world twice a better place. I have been thinking about the early morning phone call to Edda. What would I do? As I have said before, Edda knows everything. Just look at the way she makes sure AMK knows she is there by handholding, flashing her face close to AMK, not letting her forget their horrendous bond. What would I do? I think first off I would be horrified that I raised a daughter that could commit such a crime, and suffer through some really hard personal reflection. Unfortunately, this does not seem to be a part of the FOAKer makeup. Then I would tell the truth, and make my offspring tell the truth, and bear the punishment in an attempt to pay for my wrongdoing. Maybe I am fantasizing. Maybe if it was my daughter who committed the crime I would have reacted like Edda, but I really don't think so. I am still physically ill from the verdict. I do think that the thought of extradition was too much of a gamble for Italy, thus the annulment. My girl visited London not too long after 9/11, and it was a very tough decision all around for the school and parents to let them go. I am hoping maybe they got a glimpse of Meredith on one of those double-decker buses giving one of her tours. Sorry if I am disjointed. This is the only place I know where people would understand my sorrow. Love to .org, .net, keep the questions alive. Thanks. Z.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Full Claudio Pratillo Hellmann interview in La Repubblica
(this is quite a bit longer than his short comments on the Cassazione ruling):

By Meo Ponte (a well-known 'innocentisti' journalist)

30 March 2015
Claudio Pratillo Hellmann: "For our acquittal of Amanda and Raffaele, I was also 'lynched' by magistrates"

Says the man who in 2011 presided over the Court of Appeal of Perugia that acquitted Amanda and Raffaele; he has since retired.

"The acquittal of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito by the Supreme Court? It is not just satisfaction with the implicit recognition of the validity of the judgment delivered at the time by the court that I presided over, but it is mainly the end of great suffering. For three and a half years I have suffered the fate of two young people who I thought innocent and who were likely to serve a sentence for a tough crime they did not commit." Claudio Pratillo Hellmann, 72, in 2011 presided over the Court of Appeal of Perugia that acquitted Amanda and Raffaele and has since retired.

Why did you leave the judiciary right after that verdict?
"Basically, I was forced [to leave]. Our decision was met with reactions of anger. I still remember the whistles and screams of a claque that had gathered on the evening of the verdict in court. From that day on, I was surrounded by growing hostility. In bars of Perugia they were saying that I had sold out to Americans, who had succumbed to the pressures of the CIA. Tall Tales, sure, but what struck me most in this defamatory lynching that lasted for years was the reaction of fellow judges. Almost everyone stopped greeting [me], in particular, those who for various reasons had been involved in the affair. I realized that my court was a lone voice in a court system where all judges, from a preliminary hearing judge to those who reviewed various stages of investigation, while criticizing the investigation, had endorsed the prosecution. In addition I was considered for the position of the President of the Court of First Instance and of course another colleague, definitely worthy, got the job, but some suspect that it was retaliation against me. Six months after the judgment I decided to retire."

What convinced you of the innocence of Amanda and Raffaele?
"The fact that the investigation was flawed and totally wrong for me from the beginning. So much so that at first Patrick Lumumba was arrested who then turned out to be completely alien to the crime, becoming an injured party. I remember that my colleague Massimo Zanetti, who presided over the court with me, opened his report by saying that of course there was only one certainty, the death of Meredith Kercher. We ordered expert reports that had not been permitted during the first trial and the contamination of the scientific evidence became apparent. It was obvious that the knife seized at the home of Raffaele Sollecito was not the murder weapon, the knife did not match the wound. Plus I've always wondered why there had to have been three people to kill poor Meredith and why the possibility that it could have been only Rudy Guede was discarded a priori."

The only one to be sentenced for the murder ...
"And above all, the only one to know what really happened that night in via Della Pergola and who was with him, if anyone. We tried to make him talk, but when he came into our courtroom, to the precise question if he recognized Amanda and Raffaele , he replied vaguely that he had always thought that they were the killers. It always surprised me the respect with which he was treated even though he was the only one whose presence at the crime scene was indisputable."

What did you feel when the Supreme Court quashed your acquittal [of Knox and Sollecito]?
"[I was] Dismayed, above all. My court had tried to really understand who had killed Meredith, without being trapped by prejudice or preconceived thesis. We had acquitted those two youngsters because the trial had shown that there was no evidence of their involvement in the crime. Of course that decision rekindled the smear campaign against me and fueled rumors that I had been hired by the United States to free Amanda."

And when the second appeal process in Florence sentenced them both again?
"I was puzzled. I could not understand how they could do it because the trial had not revealed anything new.

They had changed the motive but it was still an assumption and not a fact. They had even ordered a scientific report on the knife that had essentially reached the same conclusions as ours. I still wonder how they arrived at their (guilty) verdict."

LA REPUBBLICA
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael, re:omerta, fair enough, I think you've actually explained it before but I'd forgotten. In any case, Bongiorno was not happy with the behaviour of the headmaster being described as omertoso as she objected it being put in the transcript.
----------------
Found couple of BBC radio programmes discussing the acquittal and talking to Knox supporters on Friday and over the weekend (apologies once again if already posted and/or discussed here):

1. Short 3-minute clip from BBC 5 in live of Hampikian commenting the acquittal and the DNA evidence:

DNA expert: Meredith Kercher case was 'bad data'

2. Two longer clips from The Stephen Nolan Show on Friday 27 March 2015 including the previous 3-minute clip in the latter one, first around 05.00-09.00 (David Willis in Seattle and Gavin Lee in Rome) and then around 37.20 - 45.00 Adrian Goldberg talks first to BBC reporter Gavin Lee again, then to Hampikian and Carlo Dalla Vedova:

Stephen Nolan on Friday 27 March 2015

3. BBC5 /Dotun/Up All Night 28/03/2015, first clip around 07.00-14.00 minutes with Gavin Lee, then around 03:07.00- 03:17.00 Knox statement and then Dotun talks to Heavey and Bremner:

Gavin Lee reporting from Rome here as well first. He says that as for any civil case, Kercher Lawyer Maresca had said he'll be looking what else can be done and that the Kercher family wants to see an end to the case as gives justice to Meredith. Lee also stresses that it's early days and that the lawyers will find out after the weekend if there is anything they can still do. Interesting. I certainly hope something can be done. But am rather pessimistic at this point.

BBC5 Up All Night 28/03/2015

Heavey says at the beginning something along the lines that "If there is another life, she [Meredith] certainly knows now that her good friend Amanda Knox is no longer wrongfully convicted." Maresca is the right arm of prosecution etc. Arrogant person. Accuses Dotun of British bias when he says that there is a question mark over the crime being committed by just one person.

All programme clips available for another 27 days.

ETA: fixed clip timings


Last edited by Rumpole on Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

"Judgment Meredith, lawyers urge: "Now Guede tell the truth, he has nothing to lose"
http://www.perugiatoday.it/cronaca/avvo ... erita.html

I have a feeling that they made sure he won't.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thank you for the audio clips, Rumpole. I can hardly listen to advocates of Knox's innocence (Bremner, Heavey) anymore, but will give it a try in a couple of days.
---------------------------------------

Bongiorno warns Sollecito not to push his luck too far by trying to launch new lawsuits for defamation, etc

We will evaluate request for compensation

Lawyer Bongiorno. "In the coming days we will evaluate request for compensation," had announced Raffaele's lawyer, Giulia Bongiorno, after the acquittal of the young man for the murder of Meredith Kercher. "There are feelings of revenge in Sollecito’s soul," added the lawyer today. "We will wait for the motivations. Not thrash / lambaste those who might have done [Sollecito] wrong. We'll see if there were errors and what measures and initiatives could be undertaken. Civil liability - she concluded - is a serious institution that should not be exercised in the spirit of revenge."

Raffaele's father. "Rudy Guede has to speak up, he has no reason to keep silent and continue to deny: he owes it to the family of poor Meredith". These are the words of Sollecito’s father on the sidelines of today's press conference.

IL TEMPO

Sollecito Sr. should be careful what he wishes for. Rudy Guede may reveal 'strange things' that could further damage his son's almost non-existent reputation and throw him off balance again, as well as spell a new disaster for him. ;)
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

They seem a bit too confident to me. It all seems a bit too much of a coincidence that this news now comes out. On the other hand, it could also just mean that Guede wants to use this verdict ('botched investigation' blabla) to his advantage.

- First he makes this statement before the SC ruling even happened: "if Amanda and Raffaele are free to start a new life, I hope to do the same". He also says he told the truth 8 years ago and has nothing to add. Case closed.
- Then Sollecito and lawyers seem very confident to say Guede should tell the truth.
- And now there is this guy, Meluzzi, who was a defense consultant for Guede stating that he thinks AK and RS are indeed innocent and the real killers are still out there.
http://www.intelligonews.it/articoli/30 ... ico-la-mia


Last edited by max on Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:31 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Arline Kercher about the verdict

Video
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The Sollecitos are making the rounds on the TV talk shows and news. I guess they are now addicted to 'fame.'

31 March 2015
Rai1 – Porta a Porta, 23.10:

Quote:
After the acquittal Raffaele Sollecito will be in the studio with his father and sister.


I won't be watching or posting a summary. From now on, I'll just ignore them. Enough is enough.

RS had the cheek to say this to Meredith's family at his press conference:

"I am very sorry that Meredith's family is disappointed by the judgment," said bitterly Raffaele, inviting loved ones of the British girl to regain 'a bit of serenity', "because this judgment is the truth of the case that this time coincides with reality. I hope they recognize this truth of the facts. I didn't know Meredith that well, I had nothing to do with this crime, had no cause for resentment against Meredith to be a participant in a crime so horrible.”


http://www.affaritaliani.it/cronache/so ... 61203.html

He also let it slip that he expected this kind of verdict:

"It is not true that I did not expect this judgment. This process had to end like this. Today I feel like a hostage who returned to freedom."


http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2015/03 ... e/1549589/
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:37 pm   Post subject: WITH LOVE   

Those who think they 'won', lost.

Those who say they 'lost', won.


~ ATLAN HEALING
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
The bullying of the Kerchers continues in the name of Amanda Knox


Bruce Fischer and his cohorts are now trying to force the poor Kerchers to support Amanda Knox. They try to shame them for "not speaking up for her". From an article published by Francesco Luna on one of Bruce Fischer's websites Wrongful Conviction News:

Quote:
The pain of the Kerchers for the tragic, horrible loss of Meredith is immense and deserves respect. But now time has come for them to come forward and exit from ambiguity. They are good people and they don’t want other lives to be taken because of this tragedy. They have now a responsibility that they cannot ignore: to avoid more violence and more tragedy. There is a large group of people who have been relentlessly threatening and insulting Amanda Knox since this story began, in 2007. They have grown more and more violent and aggressive, but until last Friday, 27 March 2015, they had a goal: to see Amanda convicted for Meredith’s murder. Now that the Italian Supreme Court has officially said that Amanda is not responsible for that murder, they are really going crazy.

[...]

Kerchers’ remarks after Friday’s verdict are not in the right direction. Saying that they don’t understand the SC’s decision is not acceptable. They understand it, it’s just they don’t want to. The decision is very clear: Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are not those the Kerchers thought they were. They did not kill Meredith. Repeating that they “don’t understand” and that they are “surprised and shocked” does not help and is not right. There is really nothing to understand, it is extremely simple. Rudy Guede killed their daughter and sister: he was robbing her apartment when she returned home and he brutally murdered her.

It is time to end this tragic saga and to avoid more senseless crime. The Kerchers are the only ones who can do it. Whoever can reach out to them, should explain this to them. They need to say clearly that they accept the decision and that they will not support any act of violence, hate, aggressiveness towards the former defendants. And they have to do it now. Before it’s too late.



Always, from the beginning, they've sought to bully the Kerchers into submission. They think this verdict somehow gives them an excuse and with it a license. It does not.

The goal of acquittal was never enough for them. They want the whole world to bow down and worship Knox, as they do.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael, with all of the sensitivity I can muster, I'd like to suggest, going forward, that the PMF logo be changed. Meredith is surrounded by all things Italian that she loved. She has not been treated there with the love and respect that she so truly deserved.

There is so much more to her than the end of her life. I hope I am not out of line. We need to bring her home.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi Napia. I agree, that some Italians have betrayed Meredith. However, this is not true of the majority. And the images in our logo are all from Perugia, a city Meredith loved and in turn loved her. Perugia fought hard, as hard as it possibly could, to bring her killers to justice and they have honoured her ever since, with the scholarship and with dedications to her on the anniversaries of her death. If we were to hold a whole country in contempt for a single wrong, then we would be just like the FOAKers as that's what they do. We are not like them. Meredith was not like them.

This is just my opinion.

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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Oh, dear. I was afraid I might muck this up. No way was it my intent to insult the Italians as a people. From what I have read, they are, in the majority, grieving also. Perhaps is should have said "expand" the logo, in some way.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

That was the flag under which we fought for Meredith Kercher. I vote to keep it.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Peter is always so positive :) I think this case is done. I don't see much happening. If so, then I probably call it double jeopardy also...lol. My interest wasn't really the book cases, but I probably check the news on that if any. Would be hilarious if Knox gets a prison sentence and they will request extradition. That will never happen of course. It is probably just going to be a fine or they let it expire after some appeals. Vogt reported that the first trial hearing date for Knox's calunnia trial was set for June 9 in Florence by the way.
http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... s_at_best/
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I see the motivation being torn to shreds then Italians really being pissed off. Think of the money wasted because of that tragic decision. Justice denied.
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:14 pm   Post subject: THIS HASN'T ENDED ...   

Hi friends, I've been away from discussing this case for a long time and decided last Wednesday (and then, on Friday), to start following the news on the final SC verdict.

No comment. As a decision, it's not the one I hoped for and that fitted in with the legal process up until now. What's beyond strange, however, is that instead of keeping open the case, it was definitively slammed shut from a legal point of view (at least, regarding the possibility that the two remaining suspects might serve time for the crime).

I do hope the discussions don't end. More than seeing the suspects in jail (which would have been the verdict that seemingly corresponded with the evidence and the legal process until now), what is most important at this point is exposing the truths to this case. That will definitely be a long haul run. I hope that I can help in that activity.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi Kermit, great to see you! Yes, that is one of the most suspicious parts of it, their irrevocably shutting the case in total 180 making sure the evidence is never examined or discussed in a court ever again. If that doesn't stink, I don't know what does.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

In the football, England have a "friendly" match against Italy tonight. Perhaps we can show our displeasure with a high scoreline there.

ETA: It's just ended Italy 1 - 1 England.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Was glad I had a wee bottiglia of vodka in my shack, the other day, I was exhausted already, working on a huge short deadlined job, found out friend died, and so did not know whether I was coming or going when I read about the awfully sad and ill-conceived verdict.
Death indeed does not show mercy.

Regrets, I hate to admit to them, but the friend who died, I had not seen for a very long time, but he too was very funny, he taught me a lot about guitar and certain areas of music, he died from pneumonia, I do not know how, maybe he was weak, as he'd been operated on a while ago, recently in fact, for a hernia, and they gave him a lot of drugs (opiates), then I think/realise, shit, wish I'd contacted him, then ... it's too late. however, that verdict, and my sadness for my friend, totalled out to me feeling like I was at a funeral, her funeral, when the news came over about Meredith's fate, yes fate, as that verdict, it was like someone went to her grave and piled more dirt on top to make sure she was dead.

This now with Sollecito, his ways, his words, her ways too, her words, it is all like threats, the kind in line with well murder and murderers, anyone who committed murder has it in them forever short of senile dementia, to me the actions we've seen have always been a reflection, their actions after the murder then, of the state they were in when Meredith died, when she was murdered, and that primary wickedness, has permeated every breath they've taken, every move they've made, they have indeed spent some time in prison, but never really being slapped down properly (so to speak), for what they've, in my opinion, done, it seems to make the spoilt son think he can get away with murder, oh wait, he did, they did, in a way, and in a way as others pointed out, because shucks, if I'd murdered someone, and I also got away with it as far as courts and jail, it'd still be me waking up with all of it living in me, through all I say and do, it's there with me, it is like being a virgin, then you have sex, and you are no longer a virgin, you can pretend to everyone that you are a virgin, but, in reality, there is no way you can ever be a virgin again.
I may have to write poetry, as discussing these vomit bags, makes me feel sick.

Now the camouflage of having the case to rant about to mom and dad and all others, is gone, and how will they be able to keep up the act, I mean they cannot act properly normal since whatever it is they did hangs about them, so they cannot be happy, they will then have to keep on pretending the actual trial has done that to them, but if you committed murder, you KNOW that what is happening to you (prison and the rest), is only what you do deserve. You pretend you are thoroughly disgusted about being accused, being in that position, why, me, who me, ya mean me, how could they, for I am... yeah... he is she is... what? well, so high and mighty.

I think it is best to trust the Universe, that it will bring you your highest best, if you let it, but if you murder someone, the Universe is going to have trouble helping you out of that, in fact, if court and prison were the true punishment, you'd wish you were there and it could then be over, but, with or without prison you are still you and you still did whatever it is ya did and ya cannot tell ANYONE.

Wonderful and what a life, hey everyone, ain't ya all jealous.

Oh, nobody is jealous? No, didn't think so, hell is worse, much much much worse than prison, courts, and the worst thing to know, is that it is your own work, your hands that built the hell that imprisons you for as long as you shall live.

Good luck with that, all those who hide the light, must be nuts, hide the sun and dig a hole.

It's the Gospel truth squire.

"No one, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a cellar or under a basket, but on a stand, that those who come in may see the light. The lamp of the body is the eye. Therefore when your eye is good, your whole body is also full of light; but when it is evil, your body also is full of darkness. Therefore see whether the light that is in you isn't darkness. If therefore your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, it will be wholly full of light, as when the lamp with its bright shining gives you light."

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Last edited by zorba on Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

My condolences for your friend, Zorba.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:53 pm   Post subject: Re: THIS HASN'T ENDED ...   

Kermit wrote:
Hi friends, I've been away from discussing this case for a long time and decided last Wednesday (and then, on Friday), to start following the news on the final SC verdict.

No comment. As a decision, it's not the one I hoped for and that fitted in with the legal process up until now. What's beyond strange, however, is that instead of keeping open the case, it was definitively slammed shut from a legal point of view (at least, regarding the possibility that the two remaining suspects might serve time for the crime).

I do hope the discussions don't end. More than seeing the suspects in jail (which would have been the verdict that seemingly corresponded with the evidence and the legal process until now), what is most important at this point is exposing the truths to this case. That will definitely be a long haul run. I hope that I can help in that activity.



Well done Mr Kermit, your projects caused many of them from the hell beyond Hades, and worse than the land of Sodom and G where nobody cares about anyone but their own miniature-minded selves, to suffer with either the runs or constipation, perhaps both.
We did as best we could with the tools of man, we tried to build a castle of truth, but the Kingdom of truth, now, that is not build by the hands of men, or women, not people, but something higher and far more mightier than any human, is the truth itself, and again, I think it is light, and light is going to shine in the backdoor of these encyclopaedic-sized acts of deception.


Its-za wunda ful wunda ful, wunda ful
I really luv muh bebby

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Offline Chris_H


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

At ISF about a year ago we discussed a quote that the Telegraph’s Nick Squires had attributed to Goebbels, namely, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it…” No one at the trial had used this quote directly, but PM Mignini had brought Gobbels’ name up and Mr. Squires thought that PM Mignini might be referencing this passage. The article was from 23 September 2011. I did a quick search and found that the authenticity of this quote was disputed. Unfortunately, the site I found (Institute for Historical Review) first was not reliable (see below). Later in the day I found that this site was actually using the work of Randall Bytwerk as its source. Professor Bytwerk’s area of research is propaganda, and I suspect he is correct and that the quote is a false attribution (He and another professor have a blog called “Goebbels didn’t say it”). I don’t blame Mr. Squires or anyone else who thought that Goebbels did say it. At this point the quote has taken on a life of its own.

I had never heard of Mark Weber or the Institute for Historical Review before the day I linked to his site. Since that time I have tried to figure out whether or not he denies the existence of the Holocaust. Based on some limited Wikipedia searching, I don’t believe that he does, but I suspect he is a Holocaust-minimizer, someone who tries to downplay the scope or extent of the devastation. In some ways this is more insidious because there are plenty of people who believe the same thing, or at least that is what a poll I saw on the subject suggested. Mr. Weber may be trying to appeal to them.

I am not a professional historian, but I am definitely do not attempt to deny or to minimize the Holocaust. I don’t think that Mr. Weber or his site are credible sources of information, and I am sorry that I linked to it. I wish that I had searched longer and linked to Professor Bytwerk’s site directly. It is unfortunate that anyone drew the inference that I support Mr. Weber or his organization (I emphatically do not). I am not anti-Semitic, and I try to avoid racial/ethnic/religious/gender stereotyping in my thinking (although I acknowledge not being perfect). I hope that this makes my position clear. When I asked to post on this subject, I was given the green light with the stipulations that I keep to this subject only and that I should try to avoid lengthy back-and-forth bickering. If the moderators/administrators are OK with my answering a few questions to clarify the statement above, I am happy to do so.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
My condolences for your friend, Zorba.



Thanks Michael, sometimes I do not feel great sadness when someone dies.
I will now have to stop looking at videos, as he had many, of him playing jazz, but what shocked me, was I was only browsing about when I saw his Facebook thing, and only after a while did I see a link, to a newspaper article, and there it was, then from there, a link to YouTube, and there they were at the actual funeral, with people I knew/know of, as in friends and acquaintances, and it was, I could see, a special funeral, with music, plenty of laughter as this guy was incredibly funny and intelligent and wouldn't have been right to be only miserable, in honour of him, there was a duty to be like him, act in his spirit, etc., everyone loved this guy, the coffin was open too, so I hadn't seen him in ages, then I saw him there in the coffin.
So I will stop looking now or it will not good for my head, I mean, it did seem odd, the filming of a funeral, usually you go there and then that's it, yet with films you can go to someone's funeral every day.
A bit much.

One think I have been doing, after that shocking news, is wrap up well with scarf and closed jacket, instead of being silly wandering about in the cold with coats undone, it's also insane to see someone's writing, then to know that a few days later they were gone. I'm guessing many wouldn't have caught pneumonia if they'd taken more care, they hadn't imagined you could get it just like that.
Life is so fragile then.

However, this is life as life is, where people do die of natural causes, murder though, that's obviously not natural at all, so the grieving process must be unbearable for Meredith's mum. No wonder she thought about approaching Guede.

Must say I often thought about it, but he is not likely to be revealing anything and that is because the things they did were horrible, and to reveal things about those two, though he'd love to, he would have to reveal his own part since nobody believed his in the WC story, and he knows it, he would, I bet just love to be able to tell everyone about the other two, especially because he will be fully aware that they've shoved everything in HIS shoes.
I reckon Guede is ashamed, he does not ever want to have to admit to anyone he hs been able to retain in his life, that he in fact was part of it.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Note: Despite the ban on FOAKer posters I have given Chris_H special permission to post in order to refute a specific accusation that had been made against him by one of our members, as a courtesy. Please do not post to him about anything other then that specific matter, as one of the stipulations for my allowing him to post is he is not allowed to discuss the case. Thanks in advance.

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael, I don't know if anyone else is seeing it, but my view is wide-screened out, so I think images have do ne that, was wondering if we could put it right, as I cannot see the entire page without reducing to 75%. Not really a problem as I now have good eyes again after 2 operations last year, in fact my eyes are so good I've no need of a microscope, my wife was immediately placed on E-Bay the day after the first op, in part exchange for a moped.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

zorba wrote:
Michael, I don't know if anyone else is seeing it, but my view is wide-screened out, so I think images have do ne that, was wondering if we could put it right, as I cannot see the entire page without reducing to 75%. Not really a problem as I now have good eyes again after 2 operations last year, in fact my eyes are so good I've no need of a microscope, my wife was immediately placed on E-Bay the day after the first op, in part exchange for a moped.


It's looking fine my end. Is anyone else having the same problem?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend, zorba.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
zorba wrote:
Michael, I don't know if anyone else is seeing it, but my view is wide-screened out, so I think images have do ne that, was wondering if we could put it right, as I cannot see the entire page without reducing to 75%. Not really a problem as I now have good eyes again after 2 operations last year, in fact my eyes are so good I've no need of a microscope, my wife was immediately placed on E-Bay the day after the first op, in part exchange for a moped.


It's looking fine my end. Is anyone else having the same problem?


Oh, that's odd, must be my end then.

I'll wait to hear if anyone else has the same, otherwise it must be me.

Thanks Michael

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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend, zorba.



Thanks Ergon.

Today, I saw on his brother's FaceB, that their father is still alive, 94. Son was 61. Tragic in fact like that, for dad must be painful.

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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
zorba wrote:
Michael, I don't know if anyone else is seeing it, but my view is wide-screened out, so I think images have do ne that, was wondering if we could put it right, as I cannot see the entire page without reducing to 75%. Not really a problem as I now have good eyes again after 2 operations last year, in fact my eyes are so good I've no need of a microscope, my wife was immediately placed on E-Bay the day after the first op, in part exchange for a moped.


It's looking fine my end. Is anyone else having the same problem?


Guermantes edited one of my images and ended up putting two side by side - which is blowing margins. The drawing done by Knox, with the arithmetic, needs a space (or "enter") in front of it so it goes to the next line. Right now it is next to a floorplan, and it's blowing the margin. Also, the photo of Guede's hand has been edited, and also needs a space (or "enter") in front of it. I think that might solve the problem.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Okay, I've had a fiddle. Is that better?

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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Okay, I've had a fiddle. Is that better?


Much better! Thank you.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

zorba wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend, zorba.



Thanks Ergon.

Today, I saw on his brother's FaceB, that their father is still alive, 94. Son was 61. Tragic in fact like that, for dad must be painful.


How sad for a parent to bury their child. As must have been for the Kerchers.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Okay, I've had a fiddle. Is that better?



Yes thanks, everything is normal again.

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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

dgfred wrote:
I don't know how much Skyping drug dealers do. Like by non-traceable phone but we know from LE they got his number from phone records (or so they said).

Who is Lorenzo?


Lorenzo was one of Frederico's pushers.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tj ... ring_link/


Last edited by Fast Pete on Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline chami


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Zorba,

Please accept my condolences on the loss of your close friend. I am already 65 and I have lost a few of my close friends and I know how it feels. Sorry!
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

We are being told that for now commentary in Italy is being constrained for legal reasons.

The Italian system is very particular about getting the Sentencing Report out and that that and not rumors or hypotheses should be the subject of popular commentary.

This is what Italian judges and lawyers are waiting on in “convince me if you can” mode. That is the biggie down the pike in terms of legitimacy.

The Sentencing Reports are always issued in PDF format or posted on the Ministry website. That is so that there are no easy ways to circulate fake alternatives - as has happened.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Well... it will hit them like a tidal wave IMO. Legitimacy wise.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
dgfred wrote:
I don't know how much Skyping drug dealers do. Like by non-traceable phone but we know from LE they got his number from phone records (or so they said).

Who is Lorenzo?


Lorenzo was one of Frederico's pushers.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Things-Bite ... 0679747567



Maybe the prosecution will release more information regarding that stuff now. I think they have some more information showing guilt that they didn't really need at trial... which they might wish they had used anyway at this terrible point.
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

dgfred wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
dgfred wrote:
I don't know how much Skyping drug dealers do. Like by non-traceable phone but we know from LE they got his number from phone records (or so they said).

Who is Lorenzo?


Lorenzo was one of Frederico's pushers.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tj ... ring_link/


Maybe the prosecution will release more information regarding that stuff now. I think they have some more information showing guilt that they didn't really need at trial... which they might wish they had used anyway at this terrible point.


Apologies that above is the correct link to more on Lorenzo.
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Offline Kermit


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:16 pm   Post subject: Re: THIS HASN'T ENDED ...   

Hi Zorba, sincere condolences for the passing away of your friend. Even when there's a framework that explains death (e.g. illness or age, vs. unexpected violence), it still requires an effort to understand, accept and also to review the things that could have been done while there was still time to do so.

Your feelings are so human, and so personal, yet understood by anyone (most of us) who has had to be witness to close family or friends passing away ... even expected, natural death that can be planned for (which clearly wasn't your case).
zorba wrote:
We did as best we could with the tools of man, we tried to build a castle of truth, but the Kingdom of truth, now, that is not build by the hands of men, or women, not people, but something higher and far more mightier than any human, is the truth itself, and again, I think it is light, and light is going to shine in the backdoor of these encyclopaedic-sized acts of deception.

How true, Zorba. There's still a long mile or more to walk on this already long road, but there's a shaft of light up ahead.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Changed my avatar in protest of the Supreme Court verdict.
pro-)
-----------------------------------

Does anybody know what this trial is about?

24 March 2015
Process Meredith, Francesco Mastro: "Raffaele is innocent"
The lawyer from Giovinazzo gave us an interview on the eve of the judgment of the Supreme Court
By Gianluca Battista

Attachment:
Francesco Mastro.jpg


On the eve of the trial, we met with the lawyer Francesco Mastro, legal defender of Sollecito in the first stage of the procedure and now in charge of following an aggravated libel. This is, in fact, the charge for a Mediaset journalist to be held before the competent court of Trani starting from March 27. In a statement broadcast on TV, he told that Rudy Guede had recognized Raffaele as the guy who he said he had seen in the house that night. This passage is considered, even by evidence given by the lawyer, unfounded. Hence the complaint and the indictment prepared by the GUP.

In the same circumstance, among other things, Raffaele Sollecito's lawyer had also filed a criminal case against investigators of Perugia, as had been provided, according to the defenders of a party, a statement to be false. But the public prosecutor had archived it all and today, after a challenge, he expects a new outcome.

"The trial in Trani - noted the lawyer - is instead just another piece of this puzzle, that people need to know in order to fully understand the drama of Raffaele."


GIOVINAZZO VIVA

----------------------------------------------------

Who is suing a Mediaset journalist? Sollecito?


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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Oh, I remember it now:

Meredith – Sollecito accuses 4 journalists of defamation
19/10/2011

http://www.umbrialeft.it/notizie/meredith-sollecito-denuncia-4-giornalisti-diffamazione

Translation here: viewtopic.php?p=90301#p90301

A statement to the prosecutor of Trani for libel against four journalists, which Raffaele Sollecito had presented in 2008. Now after three years, after his acquittal for the murder of Meredith Kercher and the release from prison [in 2011], the Attorney Pugliese has reopened the case. [...]In particular in a complaint in the file that the prosecution has re-opened, it refers to an episode of 'Top Secret' broadcast on the network 4.
...
The complaint, however, dates back to July 31, 2008, when Sollecito was still held in prison in Terni. The prosecutor Antonio Savasta has, in fact, advised the Perugia police station to investigate, to see if there had been a dissemination of news "inherently false and contrary to the actual content of the acts of the criminal proceedings" by Claudio Brachino and colleagues Remo Croci (speaking as a guest in an episode of July 16, 2008) and Micaela Bohle and Lella Volta (whose two reports were broadcast in the same episode). In reports it was said that the defendants were smoking "every night 10-15 joints, even large joints (blunts), for more support."

Sollecito claims in his complaint that the news is untrue. "No person who is abusing the drug in question, would make use of so massive an amount - says the 27 year old in the complaint - nor was this fact mentioned in any of the acts of the criminal proceedings." In explaining that one of the news services reported that on the bra of Meredith were found the DNA of both Sollecito and Guede, this circumstance would be denied – Sollecito maintained - in particular, from a report compiled by forensic geneticists. In the broadcast, finally, there was even talk of shoe prints attributed to Sollecito that were on the scene of the crime. The young man, in the complaint, reminded that the investigating judge had ruled that the shoe prints couldn’t be traced to his shoes."


UMBRIA LEFT
------------------------------------

Is Sollecito suing Remo Croci? Too funny to imagine. :)
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

A bit more on this same subject:

March 27, 2015
Double track for Raffaele Sollecito
Judgment of the Supreme Court and trial in Trani for aggravated defamation as an injured party

[…] To begin today before the Court of Trani is a trial for a case of aggravated defamation. From this morning, Sollecito plays on two tables, thus: the larger one in Rome and in the court of Trani, where he is an injured party, denounced by a journalist of Mediaset as “guilty”, who, according to the indictment, is responsible for “spreading unsubstantiated information regarding investigations on Meredith’s murder.”

A double track where the computer engineer from Giovinazzo plays the dual role of accuser and accused, "pieces of a single puzzle."

The courts have the task of putting together the mosaic and writing the final word of the two chapters of a dramatic story.


http://www.giovinazzoviva.it/notizie/do ... sollecito/
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Offline elisa


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi Germantes, and the court in TRani, how does it stand by now? I didn't find anything on Internet. Am very eager to get know, what this super liar (Forrest) Gump (stabby B's new Name) may achieve.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I can't imagine he will achieve much.
- I did not smoke 10-15 joints your honor.
- What did you do?
- I don't remember.

I think he will continue to try to restore his image a bit. I saw comments from Guede's lawyer that Guede did not know Sollecito but I doubt Guede will ever change his story. It is true though that he never clearly said that Sollecito was there. He was more clear about Knox, and I think the Sollecito camp would have used this had there been a retrial (Knox contaminated the bra clasp etc...). We will never know now.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi elisa,

yes, I've found some further information about that secondary trial in a story about Sollecito's acquittal, written by the same local journalist (see below.) As is customary in Italy, the defamation trial will be spread out over several months, if not years. Next hearing has been set for June 18. The name of the respondent isn't mentioned in the article; the question is: will there be four separate trials, one for each journalist?!

My guess is that Sollecito has dropped the defamation lawsuit against Remo Croci, maybe in exchange for more favorable coverage? But, really, I'm just guessing here. As we know, over the years, Remo Croci has become one of the "pro-Sollecito" reporters on Quarto Grado. That's why I can't imagine that Sollecito would sue him.

March 27, 2015

Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox acquitted
The Supreme Court upheld the appeals of the parties
By Gianluca Battista

[Venerdì 27 Marzo 2015 ore 22.36]

Raffaele Sollecito was crying on the phone to Remo Croci, live during the program "Fourth Degree" of Channel 4 and told those, who were able to hear him, that he was "immensely happy." His father, Francesco, said: "This Court has carefully read the papers we produced. Anyone who has read the judgment of Appeal of Florence, can only conclude what the Supreme Court has concluded. Even the family of Meredith now could say that full justice was done. It ended a nightmare that lasted eight years. Finally the judges have done justice. Our suffering, however, could never be repaid (compensated). From tomorrow on, however, we all go back to living [a normal life]." The boy's aunt, Sara Achille, former Municipal Councilor in Giovinazzo, who has never given up hope of an acquittal of Raffaele, told us by phone: "We can go back to believing in justice."

The lawyer Giulia Bongiorno said she was a bit “worried after so many hours of the Council Chamber” and to a question concerning the conviction of Guede for complicity in murder responded: "The Supreme Court, in its report on the Ivorian boy, wrote that there could be elements of complicity, but it didn’t say that there were accomplices. You should not then look for more [murderers]." Luca Maori, another member of the defense team, spoke of a "very beautiful moment for all." Francesco Mastro, however, defender of the Sollecito family also in a collateral process for aggravated defamation that opened today in Trani and will continue during the second hearing scheduled for June 18, said it had been shown that "the judiciary itself that had taken away Raffaele’s freedom, had returned [him] to life. " Mastro told us by phone that he had shared with the computer engineer from Giovinazzo "a long hug."

Luciano Ghirga, a lawyer for Amanda Knox, has emphasized the complementary nature of his client’s position with that of Sollecito. "If Amanda is innocent, Raffaele is even more so," he stated visibly pleased.


http://www.giovinazzoviva.it/notizie/raffaele-sollecito/
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:00 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Here's Remo Croci reporting live from Giovinazzo during an action in support of Sollecito:

Attachment:
Remo Croci reporting from Giovinazzo.jpg


And again on Quarto Grado, episode of Nov. 1, 2013:

Attachment:
Sollecito's Footprint (Quarto Grado Nov 1, 2013).jpg


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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I've looked through all the articles by Gianluca Battista on the Giovinazzo Viva website and found this little nugget from Bongiorno's Cassazione speech:

"So - highlighted Bongiorno - the crucial issue of genetic evidence, the only evidence against Sollecito, has revealed a misleading and anachronistic approach.”

In her speech, the lawyer also pointed out an abnormal appearance in considering the evidence as part of a judgment of appeal issued in Florence. According to the lawyer, in fact, the Court gave "value to genetic testing at reduced capacity, something that does not exist in this field, as a half-track genetics is not a test, but a trap. The criterion of reduced capacity - she warned - cannot be applied to genetics, if anything, only to an evaluation of statements of regret, as happened in the process of Andreotti. If a genetic test is not valid for science - she noted - that genetic testing should be trashed because either the DNA of Sollecito is or is not. Maybe in science there is."


http://www.giovinazzoviva.it/notizie/ca ... solvetelo/

------------------------------------

Isn't it curious that she, too, brings up Andreotti in her final presentation before the Supreme Court?
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Okay, my last post for tonight.

Looks like the Kerchers are giving up on getting justice for Meredith: they say that it's the end of the judicial process for them. :(

The family of Meredith surrenders: we are tired, case closed for us

Florence, April 1 - "The case is closed, we are tired." So the lawyer Francesco Maresca, who defended the Kercher family as a civil party in the trial for the death of Meredith, comments on the decision of the Supreme Court, which acquitted definitively Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. The "shock" declared by the family of the victim after the ruling, in a statement, after a week, Maresca stresses, with the news agency Askanews, that "with regard to the Kercher case, it is closed, [they] have taken note of what is a final judgment. " But the fact remains that Rudy Guedé is so far the only convicted of a murder that took place "in complicity" [with others]. Who was with him then that night? From what has been learned from judicial sources, the prosecutor of Perugia would, in theory at least, have the option to reopen the investigation of other people, while against Knox and Sollecito, as acquitted in the Supreme Court, it would no longer be possible. Hypothesis, however a bit remote, at this point, given that even the Kerchers seem to stop here, after eight years of judicial reversals.


ASKA NEWS
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:24 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Chris_H wrote:
At ISF about a year ago we discussed a quote that the Telegraph’s Nick Squires had attributed to Goebbels, namely, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it…” No one at the trial had used this quote directly, but PM Mignini had brought Gobbels’ name up and Mr. Squires thought that PM Mignini might be referencing this passage. The article was from 23 September 2011. I did a quick search and found that the authenticity of this quote was disputed. Unfortunately, the site I found (Institute for Historical Review) first was not reliable (see below). Later in the day I found that this site was actually using the work of Randall Bytwerk as its source. Professor Bytwerk’s area of research is propaganda, and I suspect he is correct and that the quote is a false attribution (He and another professor have a blog called “Goebbels didn’t say it”). I don’t blame Mr. Squires or anyone else who thought that Goebbels did say it. At this point the quote has taken on a life of its own.

I had never heard of Mark Weber or the Institute for Historical Review before the day I linked to his site. Since that time I have tried to figure out whether or not he denies the existence of the Holocaust. Based on some limited Wikipedia searching, I don’t believe that he does, but I suspect he is a Holocaust-minimizer, someone who tries to downplay the scope or extent of the devastation. In some ways this is more insidious because there are plenty of people who believe the same thing, or at least that is what a poll I saw on the subject suggested. Mr. Weber may be trying to appeal to them.

I am not a professional historian, but I am definitely do not attempt to deny or to minimize the Holocaust. I don’t think that Mr. Weber or his site are credible sources of information, and I am sorry that I linked to it. I wish that I had searched longer and linked to Professor Bytwerk’s site directly. It is unfortunate that anyone drew the inference that I support Mr. Weber or his organization (I emphatically do not). I am not anti-Semitic, and I try to avoid racial/ethnic/religious/gender stereotyping in my thinking (although I acknowledge not being perfect). I hope that this makes my position clear. When I asked to post on this subject, I was given the green light with the stipulations that I keep to this subject only and that I should try to avoid lengthy back-and-forth bickering. If the moderators/administrators are OK with my answering a few questions to clarify the statement above, I am happy to do so.



Hi Chris.
First of all, I wish to offer my sincere apologies to not responding to an email of yours a while back. I have been very very busy with work and personal related issues and as a result, I unfortunately was not able to reply to your email in the detail I wished to, to address some of your concerns.
May I ask who accused you and what the precise specific nature of the accusation was?
Did somebody accuse you of being an actual Holocaust denier, or were you simply called on linking a neo Nazi hate site on ISF, possibly erroneously without realizing the content? I'm aware such a thing can happen when people link without looking, so to speak, to anyone.
In your email to me, you accused another poster of making up quotes about you. These quotes had been c&p'd from alleged comments made by you on your blog. My issue with your claim is that in your email to me, you used the exact same wording wrt being unsure if Weber's site was a Holocaust denying site, as in the deleted and alleged comments made by you on your blog.
I would also like to point out that the IHR appears as about the sixth or seventh site down, if one googles Goebbels alleged quote wrt The Great Lie. Below the Wiki entry on The Great Lie and below the Jewish Virtual Library on The Great Lie. May I ask why you chose the IHR over other more mainstream sites?

May I ask also how come you're familiar with Robert Faurrison, another Holocaust denier and Anti Semite from France? I believe the French (and alleged Anti Semitic) comedian and performer "Diudonne" had him as a guest before.
You had previously emailed me a link to his blog. In the link, Faurrisson sharply criticizes Mark Weber over his articled "How Relevant is Historical Revisionism?" (Weber, 2009)
You mistakenly seemed to think that Weber's article equated to him affirming The Holocaust. This is not the purpose of Weber's article. Weber is an ardent neo-Nazi who has been involved in the neo Nazi/White Supremacist movement for decades. He has contributed to neo-Nazi newsletters, regularly uploads hate speeches on youtube saying how awesome the Nazis were, has done revisionist articles on infamous Nazi war criminal Dr Josef Mengele, responsible for mass murder and war crimes at Auschwitz extermination camp and has appeared on Montel Williams calling doubt on the veracity of the Holocaust. His IHR wenbsite has accepted articles from actual ex Third Reich Nazis. His counterparts in Austria have flown to Syria to interview fugitive Nazi war criminal Alois Bruner, who denied he had sent hundreds of thousands of men women and children to the death camps. (In a telephone interview with the Chicago Sun Times in 1987, Bruner said his one regret was not killing more Jews) He is well known to the Southen Poverty Law Centre, who have a file on Weber, and is probably also well known to the ADL.
Weber, while a qualified historian, is primarily a neo Nazi and very probably became a historian because he's a neo- Nazi and wished to give his Holocaust denial a superficial veneer of legitimacy.
More pertinently, Weber is a pragmatist, hence his article on the relevance of historical "revisionism".
The point of Weber's relevance article is not that The Holocaust happend- he knows it happened, is happy it did, and simply gets a vicarious thrill out of the Third Reich's extermination policy and wished to attack the victims of the Holocaust. (This type of behaviour isn't limited to neo Nazis btw, infamous murderers can also attract such types, such as Manson and... others.)
The point of his relevance article is that Holocaust Revisionism simply isn't an effective tool to bash Jews with anymore, and he feels that neo Nazis' questioning of an extermination policy on a group of people maybe, just maybe might make them look bad to non neo-Nazis. Even neo Nazis also have a sense of PR, it would seem.
Further in his article, Weber then states that the best way to bash the Jews would be to focus on the Hatfield/McCoy style feud between Israel and the Palestinians, with the emphasis heavily on the Israelis' actions.

I'm not saying you're a neo-Nazi or Holocaust denier or Anti Semite (nor would I ultimately care if you were as your politics/beliefs are your biz and your denial of being as such is good enough for me fwtw) and was not aware that you had been flat out accused of being one (assuming that was the actual accusation).

That said, I find your familiarity with the likes of Robert Faurisson rather bemusing. I also find it odd that as an academic, you didn't get the point of Weber's article and find it further odd still that you picked the IHR when several other more mainstream respectable sites were listed first, as well as your claim that someone had made uo quotes about you, while providing the same quotes in an email to me.

I do respect your willingness to clear this up & clarify your position though, as in clear up these discrepancies I've mentioned and again please do accept my apologies for not getting back to you earlier, as I did genuinely mean to. ;)
Cheers.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Is it true?
______________________________________________

Here are the photos of Sollecito awaiting judgment in a Roman church

Raffaele Sollecito prayed for hours in a church, while awaiting the final acquittal of the Supreme Court

The photos, published by Diva e Donna, portray him, his face very tense, his hands clasped and eyes turned up to heaven, praying in a Roman church.

He doesn't yet know that soon he will be acquitted definitively of murder, in the trial for the death of Meredith Kercher.


IL GIORNALE

You can see a couple of photos on p.1-2 of this preview of the Apr 7 issue of Diva e Donna: PREVIEW
_______________________________________________

I thought he was awaiting the verdict in his father's home in Bisceglie? These photos were probably taken on Thursday, the 26th of March, during his so-called "walk" in Rome.

And here he is just a couple of days after his acquittal: DAILY MAIL

One word comes to mind: 'hypocrite'.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The Bongiorno Interview on La7 (duration: ~ 12 minutes):

Giulia Bongiorno: Meredith, judgment had taken dragonflies for lanterns

An interview with the lawyer Giulia Bongiorno, here is how it was possible to completely reverse the judgment of Appeals [Court] and get acquittal of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

LA7 VIDEO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EqF_bY6cro#t=181
____________________________________________________

I can't bear to listen to her sharp, penetrating voice. Maybe Eric Paroissien would be so kind to subtitle this video?
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Offline elisa


Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:43 pm

Posts: 152

PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hello Guermantes,
thank you for the informations regarding the defamation Trial in Trani - it is ridiculous anyway, remebering that Sollecito confessed using marihuana - if 16 a day or less, who cares? The 16 could also mean 16 with Knox together. However it is believable, that it needs many joints to have such gaps of memory like even not knowing if having sex with girlfriend or not etc,..why nobody sued him about his lies regarding being with Knox on a party on the 1st of Nov. 07 ?
It is just crazy, pls. let me know anyway, when any news about that Trani trial, just because it is so ridiculous. He enpowered by now and am asking myself how long the power behind him will tolerate this. dance-)
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Offline indie


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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 am

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Okay, my last post for tonight.

Looks like the Kerchers are giving up on getting justice for Meredith: they say that it's the end of the judicial process for them. :(

The family of Meredith surrenders: we are tired, case closed for us

Florence, April 1 - "The case is closed, we are tired." So the lawyer Francesco Maresca, who defended the Kercher family as a civil party in the trial for the death of Meredith, comments on the decision of the Supreme Court, which acquitted definitively Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. The "shock" declared by the family of the victim after the ruling, in a statement, after a week, Maresca stresses, with the news agency Askanews, that "with regard to the Kercher case, it is closed, [they] have taken note of what is a final judgment. " But the fact remains that Rudy Guedé is so far the only convicted of a murder that took place "in complicity" [with others]. Who was with him then that night? From what has been learned from judicial sources, the prosecutor of Perugia would, in theory at least, have the option to reopen the investigation of other people, while against Knox and Sollecito, as acquitted in the Supreme Court, it would no longer be possible. Hypothesis, however a bit remote, at this point, given that even the Kerchers seem to stop here, after eight years of judicial reversals.


ASKA NEWS



I am not surprised by the Kercher family decision.

Through all these years, I have shared this case's goings on with my husband like many of you have with your spouse. My husband is Indian and a Hindu. I am not sure if it is the same for Meredith's mom but my husband believes in fate. The day Meredith died, the Kerchers lost a huge part of their heart and soul and nothing can change this sad fact. What is done is done now, and carrying on further with anger and pain may kill the family's souls even more. If this were our daughter my husband would not continue with the courts and instead allow karma to take over dealing with the cold blooded murderers.

I am not going to lie, I am not sure if I could let it go but I do think the stress and anger of continuing on could slowly kill me. I believe in Karma.
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Offline Ergon

Site Admin


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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:20 pm

Posts: 7201

Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thanks for this reminder, indie. And of course, whatever decision the Kerchers made was always fine by us. We didn't fail them, Italian justice did.
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Offline Jester


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Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Those that know Amanda Knox should recommend that she grow out her hair. This will not only accentuate her Germanic features and long neck, but serve to hide her poor complexion. Chris? Give her some advice ...

... sorry, can't think of chris without the fox.
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Offline Jester


User avatar


Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

dgfred wrote:
Well... it will hit them like a tidal wave IMO. Legitimacy wise.


I've so enjoyed following strange situations with you; where there is more than one interpretation.

Where the grass is blue, it's 21st Century media, and there's a Get Out of Jail Free Card ... what's one to do?

Image

This post has been edited by a Moderator: Fixed image size to fit the forum width. ~ guermantes ~
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael, Skep just announced that she is shutting down .org.

There are still many cases in the courts, there's the upcoming motivations report, and the Kerchers still have the option of suing the Italian state because of the inconsistent Supreme Court verdict, and still have the option of a wrongful death lawsuit.

Are you going to shut down .net? Please tell us that you're not going to shut down .net. d-))
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Offline ericparoissien


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Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:14 am

Posts: 55

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

JohnQ wrote:
Michael, Skep just announced that she is shutting down .org.

There are still many cases in the courts, there's the upcoming motivations report, and the Kerchers still have the option of suing the Italian state because of the inconsistent Supreme Court verdict, and still have the option of a wrongful death lawsuit.

Are you going to shut down .net? Please tell us that you're not going to shut down .net. d-))


Hi everyone,
Just transferred from .org, thank you for your hospitality!
JohnQ has a very good point.
Éric
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael,

Let me introduce you to Eric. He is highly intelligent and very, very perceptive. He has a unique perspective, he's very funny, and he does great translations of television interviews. He speaks French, English, and Italian. I'm a big fan of his contributions and I think you will be too!

Cheers,
JohnQ
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Offline ericparoissien


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:14 am

Posts: 55

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

JohnQ wrote:
Michael,

Let me introduce you to Eric. He is highly intelligent and very, very perceptive. He has a unique perspective, he's very funny, and he does great translations of television interviews. He speaks French, English, and Italian. I'm a big fan of his contributions and I think you will be too!

Cheers,
JohnQ


Thank you JohnQ, b-((
Now finishing some subtitles for my job, and I'll have the whole weekend to subtitle an Italian interview. Anyone can write here or on my email address (myname at gmail) if you found a good interview on the recent developments of the case. My Italian is not good enough to help with legal translations.
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

indie wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Okay, my last post for tonight.

Looks like the Kerchers are giving up on getting justice for Meredith: they say that it's the end of the judicial process for them. :(

The family of Meredith surrenders: we are tired, case closed for us

Florence, April 1 - "The case is closed, we are tired." So the lawyer Francesco Maresca, who defended the Kercher family as a civil party in the trial for the death of Meredith, comments on the decision of the Supreme Court, which acquitted definitively Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. The "shock" declared by the family of the victim after the ruling, in a statement, after a week, Maresca stresses, with the news agency Askanews, that "with regard to the Kercher case, it is closed, [they] have taken note of what is a final judgment. " But the fact remains that Rudy Guedé is so far the only convicted of a murder that took place "in complicity" [with others]. Who was with him then that night? From what has been learned from judicial sources, the prosecutor of Perugia would, in theory at least, have the option to reopen the investigation of other people, while against Knox and Sollecito, as acquitted in the Supreme Court, it would no longer be possible. Hypothesis, however a bit remote, at this point, given that even the Kerchers seem to stop here, after eight years of judicial reversals.


ASKA NEWS



I am not surprised by the Kercher family decision.

Through all these years, I have shared this case's goings on with my husband like many of you have with your spouse. My husband is Indian and a Hindu. I am not sure if it is the same for Meredith's mom but my husband believes in fate. The day Meredith died, the Kerchers lost a huge part of their heart and soul and nothing can change this sad fact. What is done is done now, and carrying on further with anger and pain may kill the family's souls even more. If this were our daughter my husband would not continue with the courts and instead allow karma to take over dealing with the cold blooded murderers.

I am not going to lie, I am not sure if I could let it go but I do think the stress and anger of continuing on could slowly kill me. I believe in Karma.


Maybe there are other reports but I just want to point out that if you read this one carefully it does not say that the Kerchers have made a definite decision not to sue the Italian state for inconsistent Supreme Court verdict (which they can do per Yummi) and it does not say they have made a definite decision not to bring a wrongful death lawsuit. Let's give them time. Of course they must feel shocked right now.
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Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Is it true?
______________________________________________

Here are the photos of Sollecito awaiting judgment in a Roman church

Raffaele Sollecito prayed for hours in a church, while awaiting the final acquittal of the Supreme Court

The photos, published by Diva e Donna, portray him, his face very tense, his hands clasped and eyes turned up to heaven, praying in a Roman church.

He doesn't yet know that soon he will be acquitted definitively of murder, in the trial for the death of Meredith Kercher.


IL GIORNALE

You can see a couple of photos on p.1-2 of this preview of the Apr 7 issue of Diva e Donna: PREVIEW
_______________________________________________

I thought he was awaiting the verdict in his father's home in Bisceglie? These photos were probably taken on Thursday, the 26th of March, during his so-called "walk" in Rome.

And here he is just a couple of days after his acquittal: DAILY MAIL

One word comes to mind: 'hypocrite'.



Some things sometimes just take place as a natural response, looking at THING, in the Daily Mail, and fleetingly reading the odd few words for the benefit of self-preservation, as opposed to reading the lot of what often is, nonsense, and going ape shit up the wall, I found myself not as much thinking about justice, its counterpart injustice or murder, guilty or not guilty, I just could not help- but seem to smell death when looking at the sick male therein, and his fake face of the New Century award winning ex-girl but always partner, the self-titled, the well-endowed Professor, Dr, , Ms My Friend.

Hey Jim, can you smell sumpthin strange
Jim: Strange...???
Joe: Yeah, strange, ya know, terrible, like shit
Jim: Like rotten fish... and shit?
Joe: Yeah like that but not as much fish as the smell of dead cats coming in and ruining ya little tea party ya all got going on down there, over there, or wherever the fcuk you are.
Jim: Oh I get ya, you mean like it could be me, even you, smelling like a rat, eaten by a cat, run over by a car, and then off out buying, at least viewing, some ridiculous automobile, smell, that type of smell, that way.
Joe: Just about, yep, a hard working boy, laughing all the way to the bank, but.....
Jim: But what?? He still stink like shit?
Joe: You're learning Jim
Jim: Only, what's all this hard-working boy you talking about?
Joe: He been learning all the ropes, you need to in order to become a professional criminal.
Jim: That his job?
Joe: Well, if I didn't know better I'd describe anyone like that as a lying, murdering, auntie apple pie eating, sponge, a self-trained con artist, all of this within a corporate model sir, I mean Jim.
Jim: Corporate you say?
Joe: Well all of that just seems to smell of an accomplished long-term business deal, with murder as the investment.
Jim: Ya mean it's like champagne, for we are above the law, and we won da justice? When in reality, without all of the man-made nonsense clouding up what went on, has been going on, and continues to go on there's still an awful pong about the place, is that you????
Joe: No it sure ain't me, you one of these who does that quietly then accuses someone else in the lift, etc., at a police headquarters, etc., are ya one of those that would let it rip in a packed lift then blame it on some little old lady minority? Are ya?
Jim: What you talking about, not me, where do I come into it.
Joe: Oh yeah, sorry, I got carried away, yes they let rip quietly in packed lifts then blame someone else. Does the scenario sound familiar to anyone here?
Contents of lift: Yeah it sure does, say 23 people all stuffed like sardines into the lift having to listen to such an abysmal conversation by a bunch of morons, while one little pot-bellied one farts.
Jim: Well, let me just say, if anyone were to accuse me of anything, I'd blame my own grandmother right away, without a thought, no problem sir, yes sir. She's old, probably ain't got long ta go anyhow, and why pay for an old folk's home when they are basically all cabbages by then?
Joe: That's a very compassionate report there from you Jim, precisely, to move forward we must move back, I mean if you had been accused of murder yourself, you'd like to have so many sittings that in the end, the judges seeing the case in present time, as the final in the Supreme Court, felt as though they were judging a case that took place 3 centuries ago, where they'd have no true grasp or actual connection to the realities seen right through the actual processing of the case, where then, in the end, a few dumbaciously [ain't a real word] disturbing remarks from some woman looking identical to said killer talking in riddles supposedly defending him, couldn't help but let a dirty great fart in the middle of his speech for the international TV channels. We have great respect for all parties concerned, if they talk now about us we shall send in guards armed with rocket launchers to defend our, business as usual, great family name.
Jim: I'm having trouble following ya now n then Joe, whose side we on again?
Joe: Our side

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:16 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
zorba wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend, zorba.



Thanks Ergon.

Today, I saw on his brother's FaceB, that their father is still alive, 94. Son was 61. Tragic in fact like that, for dad must be painful.


How sad for a parent to bury their child. As must have been for the Kerchers.



Exactly, I think most parents would gladly give their own lives to save those of their children, I would.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline zorba


User avatar


Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thanks Chami and Kermit

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 879

Location: New York

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Changed my avatar in protest against the Supreme Court verdict.
pro-)
-----------------------------------

Does anybody know what this trial is about?

24 March 2015
Process Meredith, Francesco Mastro: "Raffaele is innocent"
The lawyer from Giovinazzo gave us an interview on the eve of the judgment of the Supreme Court
By Gianluca Battista

Attachment:
Francesco Mastro.jpg


On the eve of the trial, we met with the lawyer Francesco Mastro, legal defender of Sollecito in the first stage of the procedure and now in charge of following an aggravated libel. This is, in fact, the charge for a Mediaset journalist to be held before the competent court of Trani starting from March 27. In a statement broadcast on TV, he told that Rudy Guede had recognized Raffaele as the guy who he said he had seen in the house that night. This passage is considered, even by evidence given by the lawyer, unfounded. Hence the complaint and the indictment prepared by the GUP.

In the same circumstance, among other things, Raffaele Sollecito's lawyer had also filed a criminal case against investigators of Perugia, as had been provided, according to the defenders of a party, a statement to be false. But the public prosecutor had archived it all and today, after a challenge, he expects a new outcome.

"The trial in Trani - noted the lawyer - is instead just another piece of this puzzle, that people need to know in order to fully understand the drama of Raffaele."


GIOVINAZZO VIVA

----------------------------------------------------

Who is suing a Mediaset journalist? Sollecito?


The Bari lawyer Mastro pops up now and then. He was beside RS in a media interview in London. He consistently took the position that RS was not a party to the attack and seemed strongest on wanting complete separation from AK although except for the Jessica Rabbit remark Bongiorno did also.

There are 1000 questions that could begin with the words "As you were not guilty all along in the eyes of the court, why... ?"

The endemic slugging it out over the years could maybe use some explanation, as could AK in her first statement on 6 Nov saying she went out alone. People say "oh the cops misunderstood the see-you-later text back to Patrick" but run a mile rather than explain that.
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Offline indie


User avatar


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:15 am

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

JohnQ wrote:
indie wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Okay, my last post for tonight.

Looks like the Kerchers are giving up on getting justice for Meredith: they say that it's the end of the judicial process for them. :(

The family of Meredith surrenders: we are tired, case closed for us

Florence, April 1 - "The case is closed, we are tired." So the lawyer Francesco Maresca, who defended the Kercher family as a civil party in the trial for the death of Meredith, comments on the decision of the Supreme Court, which acquitted definitively Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. The "shock" declared by the family of the victim after the ruling, in a statement, after a week, Maresca stresses, with the news agency Askanews, that "with regard to the Kercher case, it is closed, [they] have taken note of what is a final judgment. " But the fact remains that Rudy Guedé is so far the only convicted of a murder that took place "in complicity" [with others]. Who was with him then that night? From what has been learned from judicial sources, the prosecutor of Perugia would, in theory at least, have the option to reopen the investigation of other people, while against Knox and Sollecito, as acquitted in the Supreme Court, it would no longer be possible. Hypothesis, however a bit remote, at this point, given that even the Kerchers seem to stop here, after eight years of judicial reversals.


ASKA NEWS



I am not surprised by the Kercher family decision.

Through all these years, I have shared this case's goings on with my husband like many of you have with your spouse. My husband is Indian and a Hindu. I am not sure if it is the same for Meredith's mom but my husband believes in fate. The day Meredith died, the Kerchers lost a huge part of their heart and soul and nothing can change this sad fact. What is done is done now, and carrying on further with anger and pain may kill the family's souls even more. If this were our daughter my husband would not continue with the courts and instead allow karma to take over dealing with the cold blooded murderers.

I am not going to lie, I am not sure if I could let it go but I do think the stress and anger of continuing on could slowly kill me. I believe in Karma.


Maybe there are other reports but I just want to point out that if you read this one carefully it does not say that the Kerchers have made a definite decision not to sue the Italian state for inconsistent Supreme Court verdict (which they can do per Yummi) and it does not say they have made a definite decision not to bring a wrongful death lawsuit. Let's give them time. Of course they must feel shocked right now.



Yes, it is is a family decision. I was sharing just how difficult this decision may be for them with cultural values in the mix. I know they will make the right decision for them. The Kerchers have carried themselves with the greatest dignity. And in a way they reflect the cultural values I was talking about in not letting anger take over their lives.
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Offline guermantes

Links & Gallery Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:49 am

Posts: 4899

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

ericparoissien wrote:
JohnQ wrote:
Michael, Skep just announced that she is shutting down .org.

There are still many cases in the courts, there's the upcoming motivations report, and the Kerchers still have the option of suing the Italian state because of the inconsistent Supreme Court verdict, and still have the option of a wrongful death lawsuit.

Are you going to shut down .net? Please tell us that you're not going to shut down .net. d-))


Hi everyone,
Just transferred from .org, thank you for your hospitality!
JohnQ has a very good point.
Éric


Hello Eric,

nice to see you here and welcome to the forum!

I posted links to some of your videos in the Media subforum: viewtopic.php?p=123640#p123640

JohnQ, I'm sure Michael will reply in due time, many people go away on holiday for the Easter weekend.

Hope everyone has a nice Easter. r-((
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Offline guermantes

Links & Gallery Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:49 am

Posts: 4899

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Amanda Knox has written a Letter to the Editor of The Seattle Times, here is the link:

http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/ama ... a-purpose/

Amanda Knox wrote:
I will work to give a voice to those individuals. I will do this because I know how a wrongful conviction can destroy one’s life and because we best honor crime victims by ensuring that the actual perpetrators are brought to justice.


"We'll see how well this works out. Could you please find my accomplices?" Signed, Rudy, aka LoneWolf.
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Offline Napia5


User avatar


Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

G, I want you to know how much I appreciate your contributions keeping us informed.
You click so I don't have to. Much appreciated.
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I have been "permanently banned" from org. Well, I guess I am in good company.

Skep wrote me a PM saying, "Stop being a little Hitler." and demanded I edit some posts and/or apologize to one of her favorites.

I lost my temper. 1000 posts for Meredith and Skep calls me Hitler? ! IMO, she has some deep seated personal problems and I'm glad she's shutting down her board.

I'm half Jewish and even if I weren't she has some nerve calling me Hitler.

She also went on a rampage and deleted everyone's posts she didn't like. I couldn't have edited my post if I had wanted to. :roll:
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
ericparoissien wrote:
JohnQ wrote:
Michael, Skep just announced that she is shutting down .org.

There are still many cases in the courts, there's the upcoming motivations report, and the Kerchers still have the option of suing the Italian state because of the inconsistent Supreme Court verdict, and still have the option of a wrongful death lawsuit.

Are you going to shut down .net? Please tell us that you're not going to shut down .net. d-))


Hi everyone,
Just transferred from .org, thank you for your hospitality!
JohnQ has a very good point.
Éric


Hello Eric,

nice to see you here and welcome to the forum!

I posted links to some of your videos in the Media subforum: http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewto ... 40#p123640

JohnQ, I'm sure Michael will reply in due time, many people go away on holiday for the Easter weekend.

Hope everyone has a nice Easter. r-((


Thank you, guermantes.
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Offline chami


Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:36 pm

Posts: 166

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Amanda Knox has written a Letter to the Editor of The Seattle Times, here is the link:

http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/ama ... a-purpose/

Amanda Knox wrote:
I will work to give a voice to those individuals. I will do this because I know how a wrongful conviction can destroy one’s life and because we best honor crime victims by ensuring that the actual perpetrators are brought to justice.


"We'll see how well this works out". Signed, Rudy, aka LoneWolf.


Justice, n. a decision in my favour.
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Offline max


Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:55 am

Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sorry to hear that John. Many people here are banned from .org. I have no idea why. She shouldn't close a board that does not belong to her. I doubt Michael would want it back, but it would be a nice gesture :mrgreen:
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

max wrote:
Sorry to hear that John. Many people here are banned from .org. I have no idea why. She shouldn't close a board that does not belong to her. I doubt Michael would want it back, but it would be a nice gesture :mrgreen:


Max, Thanks.

Well, that's one of her issues. She was always standoffish with me. I think she knew pretty much right away I was smart enough to figure out the score on her past behavior. Which I did. It wasn't hard to do. wm)
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Offline ericparoissien


User avatar


Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:14 am

Posts: 55

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:

Hello Eric,

nice to see you here and welcome to the forum!

I posted links to some of your videos in the Media subforum: http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewto ... 40#p123640

JohnQ, I'm sure Michael will reply in due time, many people go away on holiday for the Easter weekend.

Hope everyone has a nice Easter. r-((


Thank you Guermantes,

You did a good job arranging the videos in an accessible way.
Tomorrow morning I'll look for a nice recent show to subtitle, even a radio interview, maybe of the lawyers, Mme Bonjour et alii.

The whole family has already tasted the Easter chocolate, little rabbits, eggs and bells.
Happy Easter to you too, and to the forum.
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Offline guermantes

Links & Gallery Moderator


User avatar


Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:49 am

Posts: 4899

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Napia5 wrote:
G, I want you to know how much I appreciate your contributions keeping us informed.
You click so I don't have to. Much appreciated.


Thanks Napia5, you are too kind. :) It's my job as a Links Moderator to post links and update the Links subforum (I'm a little behind with that but hope to catch up over the long weekend.)

Wishing your grandkids a lot of fun Easter egg hunting. r-((
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Offline Chris_H


Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:30 am

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

corpusvile wrote:
Hi Chris.
First of all, I wish to offer my sincere apologies to not responding to an email of yours a while back. I have been very very busy with work and personal related issues and as a result, I unfortunately was not able to reply to your email in the detail I wished to, to address some of your concerns.
May I ask who accused you and what the precise specific nature of the accusation was?
Did somebody accuse you of being an actual Holocaust denier, or were you simply called on linking a neo Nazi hate site on ISF, possibly erroneously without realizing the content? I'm aware such a thing can happen when people link without looking, so to speak, to anyone.
In your email to me, you accused another poster of making up quotes about you. These quotes had been c&p'd from alleged comments made by you on your blog. My issue with your claim is that in your email to me, you used the exact same wording wrt being unsure if Weber's site was a Holocaust denying site, as in the deleted and alleged comments made by you on your blog.
I would also like to point out that the IHR appears as about the sixth or seventh site down, if one googles Goebbels alleged quote wrt The Great Lie. Below the Wiki entry on The Great Lie and below the Jewish Virtual Library on The Great Lie. May I ask why you chose the IHR over other more mainstream sites?

May I ask also how come you're familiar with Robert Faurrison, another Holocaust denier and Anti Semite from France? I believe the French (and alleged Anti Semitic) comedian and performer "Diudonne" had him as a guest before.
You had previously emailed me a link to his blog. In the link, Faurrisson sharply criticizes Mark Weber over his articled "How Relevant is Historical Revisionism?" (Weber, 2009)
You mistakenly seemed to think that Weber's article equated to him affirming The Holocaust. This is not the purpose of Weber's article. Weber is an ardent neo-Nazi who has been involved in the neo Nazi/White Supremacist movement for decades. He has contributed to neo-Nazi newsletters, regularly uploads hate speeches on youtube saying how awesome the Nazis were, has done revisionist articles on infamous Nazi war criminal Dr Josef Mengele, responsible for mass murder and war crimes at Auschwitz extermination camp and has appeared on Montel Williams calling doubt on the veracity of the Holocaust. His IHR wenbsite has accepted articles from actual ex Third Reich Nazis. His counterparts in Austria have flown to Syria to interview fugitive Nazi war criminal Alois Bruner, who denied he had sent hundreds of thousands of men women and children to the death camps. (In a telephone interview with the Chicago Sun Times in 1987, Bruner said his one regret was not killing more Jews) He is well known to the Southen Poverty Law Centre, who have a file on Weber, and is probably also well known to the ADL.
Weber, while a qualified historian, is primarily a neo Nazi and very probably became a historian because he's a neo- Nazi and wished to give his Holocaust denial a superficial veneer of legitimacy.
More pertinently, Weber is a pragmatist, hence his article on the relevance of historical "revisionism".
The point of Weber's relevance article is not that The Holocaust happend- he knows it happened, is happy it did, and simply gets a vicarious thrill out of the Third Reich's extermination policy and wished to attack the victims of the Holocaust. (This type of behaviour isn't limited to neo Nazis btw, infamous murderers can also attract such types, such as Manson and... others.)
The point of his relevance article is that Holocaust Revisionism simply isn't an effective tool to bash Jews with anymore, and he feels that neo Nazis' questioning of an extermination policy on a group of people maybe, just maybe might make them look bad to non neo-Nazis. Even neo Nazis also have a sense of PR, it would seem.
Further in his article, Weber then states that the best way to bash the Jews would be to focus on the Hatfield/McCoy style feud between Israel and the Palestinians, with the emphasis heavily on the Israelis' actions.

I'm not saying you're a neo-Nazi or Holocaust denier or Anti Semite (nor would I ultimately care if you were as your politics/beliefs are your biz and your denial of being as such is good enough for me fwtw) and was not aware that you had been flat out accused of being one (assuming that was the actual accusation).

That said, I find your familiarity with the likes of Robert Faurisson rather bemusing. I also find it odd that as an academic, you didn't get the point of Weber's article and find it further odd still that you picked the IHR when several other more mainstream respectable sites were listed first, as well as your claim that someone had made uo quotes about you, while providing the same quotes in an email to me.

I do respect your willingness to clear this up & clarify your position though, as in clear up these discrepancies I've mentioned and again please do accept my apologies for not getting back to you earlier, as I did genuinely mean to. ;)
Cheers.

corpusvile,

I’ll try to cover as many of your points as my memory allows me to. I don’t remember exactly which search terms I used to track down the Goebbels non-quote, and I just don’t remember why I chose the ISF site, as opposed to some other site. I was on my lunch hour and working quickly, and in retrospect I should have taken more time and more care. On the other hand, I had no idea that the ISF was not mainstream until I started looking into it further. I found out who Robert Faurisson was because I did a search on Mark Weber, about the same time as our email exchange. What I took away from that article was that Weber was not extreme enough to Faurisson’s way of thinking (which is pretty remarkable, if true).

Here is something attributed to Weber, courtesy of Wikipedia: “The IHR has insisted that they do not deny the Holocaust, claiming that, ‘The Institute does not 'deny the Holocaust.' Every responsible scholar of twentieth century history acknowledges the great catastrophe that befell European Jewry during World War II. All the same, the IHR has over the years published detailed books and numerous probing essays that call into question aspects of the orthodox Holocaust extermination story, and highlight specific Holocaust exaggerations and falsehoods.’[24]”

It seems to me that this stance allows Weber and his ilk to have their cake and to eat it, too. They can acknowledge it, but pretend it was not so extensive as others have claimed. This allows them to appeal to a broader spectrum of people. I seem to recall finding the article “The world is full of holocaust deniers,” by Emma Green in The Atlantic at some point in my search, and it is clear that some people do believe that the Holocaust has not been accurately reported (I am not one of them). With respect to Weber and the ISF some (such as a site that is associated with the US Holocaust Memorial Museum) would call this “Holocaust distortion,” whereas I used “Holocaust minimization” to express the same idea.

We may have a slightly different interpretation of Weber’s public views (I just read the quotes at Faurisson’s blog entry, not Weber’s original article), and I would be the first to acknowledge that you interpretation may well be closer to the truth. I was struck by Faurisson’s call for Weber to resign from the IHR. Your view of Weber’s true beliefs (that he actively revels in the despicable actions of the Nazis) is a highly plausible assessment, but I just don’t know enough to comment further. You seem to have been aware Weber’s activities for some time (I am glad that people are keeping a watch on him), and I have no reason to doubt what you say.

At least one commenter at ISF (formerly JREFF) accused me of being a holocaust-denier (some of those comments were removed from public display by the moderators of that discussion board). With respect to the exchange on my blog, I copied it before I deleted it from the blog. I deleted it because the person with whom I had been communicating had become personally abusive, and that exceeded what I was willing to tolerate. My recollection is that a commenter on another discussion board (not ISF but one devoted to the Meredith Kercher case) also copied the exchange, but added some highly inflammatory verbiage (which appeared in red colored font) that I most emphatically did not say. My recollection is that he also acknowledged making that section up, but this was almost two months ago, and I did not copy it down. I think that it has since been deleted from that discussion board. I hope this clarifies the issues about which you expressed concern.

kind regards
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sollecito to Il Giornale & Oggi:

"The first thing I want? My passport"

In the current issue of the weekly magazine Oggi, there is also an interview with Raffaele Sollecito, who was blamed for Meredith's death.

"The first thing I want to do is go to the police station to demand that they give back my passport," said the young man. The document was withdrawn when it was feared that he could become a fugitive. Although he insists: "I came back from Santo Domingo and from Sweden (sic) [Switzerland?] to attend my trial [in Florence]. The suspicion that I might try to flee was too convenient."

So says Raffaele Sollecito a few days after his acquittal for the crime of Perugia.

The young man, who had had his passports confiscated after his conviction for Meredith Kercher's murder, continues: "The old one, with the stamps and memories of my trips, had been taken away before the judgment of Florence because they feared that I could run away," - Sollecito said to Oggi - "Only when I have the passport in my hands I'll feel a free man. I'll take Greta by the hand and we'll go away for a nice vacation. In a place where no one stops me on the street to ask me questions. In a place to help me forget the nightmares and above all the injustices of these seven and a half years. And where I won't read in people's eyes amazement at my acquittal. Because this astonishment is an attitude that bothers/annoys and rather irritates me."


Il GIORNALE

About his and Greta's plans for the future:

...And despite persistent rumors of an alleged crisis around Christmas, there has always been Greta to wait until the end of his judiciary ordeal. "Speaking of difficult times," she said, "the last hours before the ruling were the worst." So it did not surprise anyone to see her always beside him in the courtroom, in place until then reserved for Francesco Sollecito, the "father". Now what awaits them? There are some whispers that wedding is already planned, although relatives and friends would like a softer return to normal for a young man so severely worn out/tired/exhausted as is Raffaele, who mocks: "In a couple of years, maybe ...." Meanwhile he and Greta are inseparable. In good times and bad.


MENTI INFORMATICHE
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Offline JohnQ


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Skep, you have sent me three new private messages. I can't read them. I am banned. Duh!

Stop sending me private messages, anyway. I don't associate with people who start off their messages with: "Stop Being a little Hitler."

Shame on you.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi, and welcome to our new members. Your contributions to Meredith Kercher's cause will always be appreciated, and, this is to welcome all others who would like to join dot NET as well.

I will say one thing though which is that reports of what happened in Rome between our reporter and others were misconstrued. I should know, since I was more closely connected with this than anyone except the person involved. I know what happened, but I can't violate that confidence.

However, while I do agree we should like any one ask reporters to report accurately it is not our place to insist on purity tests or care whether they earn a little money or a lot from telling their story from their perspective.

I will always appreciate Barbie Nadeau and Andrea Vogt's reporting, and unlike some, am aware how difficult their job has been. Above all, they have to be neutral, and it is up to us to also, be fair.

I will let Michael confirm what the future of this board will be. But Perugia Murder File will continue in one form or the other, and as Edward McCall (the real owner of the Meredith Kercher Wiki, no matter how the neurotically inclined Amandii might insist, not I :) confirmed for every one, the truth of what happened to Meredith Kercher, and the names of those the evidence prove to be guilty of her heinous murder, will always be up here, for the public record.
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Don't recall seeing these reports mentioned here -

1) The Economist distorting all the facts of the case it possibly can:

Innocente The overdue acquittal of Amanda Knox exposes glaring flaws in Italy's justice system

2) CounterPunch, which is supposed to offer independent investigative journalism and usually offers interesting political analysis, has produced a story about the acquittal based on other articles among which the above-mentioned Economist piece and a couple of Peter Popham spin stories from the Independent:

An Industry of Misery The Amanda Knox Case
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Offline ericparoissien


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:

LA7 VIDEO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EqF_bY6cro#t=181
____________________________________________________

I can't bear to listen to her sharp, penetrating voice. Maybe Eric Paroissien would be so kind to subtitle this video?


Thank you Guermantes, i just saw this now --I'm a slow reader, only reading this forum portion by portion--, excellent choice, a new presentation of Mme Bonjour.
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Offline harmonic


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Hi, and welcome to our new members. Your contributions to Meredith Kercher's cause will always be appreciated, and, this is to welcome all others who would like to join dot NET as well.

Thank you for the welcome , Ergon , and thank you Michael and Nell , also .

I'd like to thank JohnQ while I'm at it as well , for graciously inviting me to come and register here .

I'm sure everyone is now aware of the situation at .org , so I thought I might as well make the migration here sooner rather than later .

I have been reading this board for years , and it is an honour to now be amongst you all here as a registered member .

Really looking forward to contributing to Meredith's cause !

A big "HELLO!" to you all ! th-)
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi Chris, thanks for your considered and reasoned response.
I personally think that Weber was denying the Holocaust as a means or "weapon" if you will, to bash Jews and other demographics that the Nazis considered "Untermensch" with, even though he knew it was a historical fact and knew deep down that the Third Reich did indeed have an extermination policy against Jews, as outlined by Himmler at Wansee. His change of attitude wrt the relevance of historical revisionism (or his brand of it anyway) was based purely on pragmatic terms- originanly he had intended to rub the Jews face in their tragedy by denying it happened and proclaiming that the perpetrators of such a callous crime were innocent and that no evidence existed against them- but he then pragmatically realised that Holocaust Denial was no longer an effective tool to legitimize his hatred against Jews, hence his questioning of its relevance in his article which upset Faurisson so much.
To clarify, I never kept an eye on Weber as such, I simply researched him and other various hate groups as I went through a period of arguing/debating with Holocaust deniers and white supremacists on the IMDB politics forum a few years back, who would constantly post links to his crappy site. I read some of his articles and saw right through his lies and revisionism, as the hard truth has more gravitas than a belief and trumps such revisionism of criminal perpetrators. I engaged/argued/debated with Holocaust deniers as hate (or Hate) has always fascinated me. I find it fascinating that such hate can shut down people's critical thinking, causing them to engage in a form of mass cognitive dissonance and cultish mentality.
Holocaust deniers would simply refuse to entertain that those they admired had committed a very brutal crime. They would engage in contortionist, pretzel logic and outright logical fallacies in order to try and explain away the overwhelming evidence against the perpetrators of such a brutal crime. They would propagate conspiracy theories about how the Jews had lied about the whole affair in order to profit and that the perpetrators of such a brutal crime were essentially the subject of a witch hunt by the current powers that be, the authorities if you will.
More pertinently, they would lie and obfuscate online in some rather disturbing attempt to curry favour for the offenders in the court of public opinion. Despite knowing deep down that the offenders- such as The Nazis- were guilty as sin of their brutal crime against defenceless victims.

So yeah, Hate and a darkness of the psyche/Id/soul fascinates me as it seems to be a corrosion of what we as human beings are supposed to aspire to. That in itself can cause many problems and damage which could even potentially have implications for the society we live in and wish to be, hence my engagement with such types of people.
See, such behaviour^^, which ultimately stems from a darkness of the psyche, is distinctly immoral to me, despite my not being religious. As somebody very probably smarter than me once wrote, evil (or hate/darkness/call it what you will) triumphs when ordinary Joes/Janes just sit there and do nothing about it.
However, luckily we're in the age of communication so it was no trouble for me to use tools such as the internet to counter the lies, obfuscation, sliming of victims, outright lies, conspiracy theories and all sorts of other smoke and mirrors those with disturbed mindsets present. It was no trouble as I had the facts, evidence and truth on my side. The Holocaust Deniers could never validate their case, which essentially clued others in, who happened to be reading the exchanges.

Weber will always be Weber though and there will always be people like him out there, cheering on their icons who have committed horrible crimes against humanity or other singular victims, as like I said before this type of mentality and reveling in the actions of those whose actions normal people would find despicable, can have many facets. As long as ordinary people stand up for their principals and do not buy into the lies and deceit of Weber's brand of PR, or indeed any other facet and refute such lies and toxicity with the truth, then I reckon there's still hope for us yet as a species.

I hope that clears up my stance in this regard.
Thanks again for your thoughtful response.
Cheers.
Conor.


Last edited by corpusvile on Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Kristeva


Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:22 am

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Hi, and welcome to our new members. Your contributions to Meredith Kercher's cause will always be appreciated, and, this is to welcome all others who would like to join dot NET as well.

I will say one thing though which is that reports of what happened in Rome between our reporter and others were misconstrued. I should know, since I was more closely connected with this than anyone except the person involved. I know what happened, but I can't violate that confidence.

However, while I do agree we should like any one ask reporters to report accurately it is not our place to insist on purity tests or care whether they earn a little money or a lot from telling their story from their perspective.

I will always appreciate Barbie Nadeau and Andrea Vogt's reporting, and unlike some, am aware how difficult their job has been. Above all, they have to be neutral, and it is up to us to also, be fair.

I will let Michael confirm what the future of this board will be. But Perugia Murder File will continue in one form or the other, and as Edward McCall (the real owner of the Meredith Kercher Wiki, no matter how the neurotically inclined Amandii might insist, not I :) confirmed for every one, the truth of what happened to Meredith Kercher, and the names of those the evidence prove to be guilty of her heinous murder, will always be up here, for the public record.


Hi Ergon,

thank you for mentioning what happened yesterday on ORG. It's funny how my recounting of my 2 days at Cassazione and a simple observation turned into a wild gossip. My observation was about Andrea Vogt's impartiality exactly for reason that she greeted Sfarzo in an amicable way. Two kisses on the cheek is normal for people who know each other well here in Italy. (I think the French only kiss once).
While it did surprise me knowing his poor character it simply showed that she is a kind woman who greets everyone no matter what. It is absolutely not true that she didn't want to be associated with me. I was not a journalist there. I was there to represent the Meredith Kercher supporters and our websites. I introduced myself to many journalists and several of them were interested in the work we have done, especially the Wiki. In the same way I introduced myself to Andrea but she already knew about us so there was not much else to talk about. One funny thing that happened was that at one point I was talking to Barbie Nadeau, mostly because we have friends in common with some faculty at the university in Rome where she sometimes lectures and Sfarzo and David Anderson walked by. She was just about to introduce me but I gave her a stare and squeezed her arm gently. She understood that it was not my pleasure at all to know these people and she stopped.
As far as the two forums I have always been "forum shy" but have always read what everyone said on both and have respect for all. I worked with the members of ORG on the translation of Nencini and when the time comes I'll be willing to do the same for Marasca.

I'll come visit here again and thank you all again for the support I received during those two wild days at Cassazione that ended in the most shocking of moments. I am deeply embarrassed for how my country has failed Meredith and her family.
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Offline ericparoissien


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Kristeva wrote:

Hi Ergon,

thank you for mentioning what happened yesterday on ORG. It's funny how my recounting of my 2 days at Cassazione and a simple observation turned into a wild gossip. My observation was about Andrea Vogt's impartiality exactly for reason that she greeted Sfarzo in an amicable way. Two kisses on the cheek is normal for people who know each other well here in Italy. (I think the French only kiss once).


In the Latin area in social situations we don't risk an open declaration of war by refusing to kiss the whole company, what you can do is plan ahead to not be caught within the social bubble of that person you hate to greet, but when you're there, you don't make that rude statement by refusal.
In France, in the Northern country side when i was a kid, we'd even kiss 4 times each person, and i remember the chore it was in our big weddings and funerals when we were an average of 7 kids per family.
My 10 years in Tokyo were a relief.
In the South where i live now all men on friendly terms also kiss twice as the Arabs do (men<>women don't kiss-greet in Arabic countries). In other parts of France only men relative kiss, but man-woman kiss-greet happens as soon as you've had the first conversation about your kids.
Japanese politeness might be complex, but Latin politeness is quite complex.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Lots of free floating anger looking for a place to land after this frustrating decision.

We probably would have enjoyed the story much better if Frank had turned into a prince after the kiss, but we all know that ain't ever going to happen.
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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I find this whole topic amusing, shouldn't the foakers be upset Frank kissed Andrea , or do they just accept she's attractive and its Frank after all. On the topic of Frank it looks like he is missing friends in the Sollecito camp, what a saga,they need to find a way to make it all fit for "the best truth".
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

JohnQ wrote:
I have been "permanently banned" from org. Well, I guess I am in good company.

Skep wrote me a PM saying, "Stop being a little Hitler." and demanded I edit some posts and/or apologize to one of her favorites.

I lost my temper. 1000 posts for Meredith and Skep calls me Hitler? ! IMO, she has some deep seated personal problems and I'm glad she's shutting down her board.

I'm half Jewish and even if I weren't she has some nerve calling me Hitler.

She also went on a rampage and deleted everyone's posts she didn't like. I couldn't have edited my post if I had wanted to. :roll:


Welcome! You are now hanging out with the cool kids, where there is no wrist slapping for speaking your mind.
Godwin's Law: "whoever mentioned [Hitler or] Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress".

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/godwins-law
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Rumpole wrote:
Don't recall seeing these reports mentioned here -

1) The Economist distorting all the facts of the case it possibly can:

Innocente The overdue acquittal of Amanda Knox exposes glaring flaws in Italy's justice system

2) CounterPunch, which is supposed to offer independent investigative journalism and usually offers interesting political analysis, has produced a story about the acquittal based on other articles among which the above-mentioned Economist piece and a couple of Peter Popham spin stories from the Independent:

An Industry of Misery The Amanda Knox Case


Complaints about the "backwards, medieval" Italian justice system began on the day that Knox and Sollecito lied to police (during a murder investigation). Apparently, deceit should be overlooked when the suspects are from wealthy families. When their lies resulted in criminal charges, that was perceived as an injustice. The perceived injustices continued through to their convictions. When the appeal resulted in an acquittal, it was not an injustice. Law that permits the prosecution to appeal a verdict is again perceived as an injustice. The resulting conviction was an injustice, and the final acquittal is not an injustice.

In fact, that this process took several years is not an injustice. Appeals take years, a fact that is not unique to Italy.


Last edited by Jester on Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

max wrote:
Sorry to hear that John. Many people here are banned from .org. I have no idea why. She shouldn't close a board that does not belong to her. I doubt Michael would want it back, but it would be a nice gesture :mrgreen:


Exactly!
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Moving forward, there will be a translation of the Marasca Report, and there will be a point by point rebuttal by the PMF, TJMK, and TMOMK community. All are invited to contribute.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

And I'm not sure anyone has researched Raffaele Sollecito's maternal family ties. Given they tend to intermarry, is it possible he also is er, 'connected' that way too? :)
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Offline harmonic


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
And I'm not sure anyone has researched Raffaele Sollecito's maternal family ties. Given they tend to intermarry, is it possible he also is er, 'connected' that way too? :)

In time honoured blue-blooded tradition , eh ? Perhaps his 'connection' there lies with Vanessa :shock: (!?!) , in which case it may be very difficult to come up with the real facts if someone were to undertake such research (?)
sc-)) though surely ?!? huh-) .... n-(( .... nw)
Jester wrote:
Complaints about the "backwards, medieval" Italian justice system began on the day that Knox and Sollecito lied to police (during a murder investigation). Apparently, deceit should be overlooked when the suspects are from wealthy families. When their lies resulted in criminal charges, that was perceived as an injustice. The perceived injustices continued through to their convictions. When the appeal resulted in an acquittal, it was not an injustice. Law that permits the prosecution to appeal a verdict is again perceived as an injustice. The resulting conviction was an injustice, and the final acquittal is not an injustice.

In fact, that this process took several years is not an injustice. Appeals take years, a fact that is not unique to Italy.

A very accurate assessment , and as ironic and sad as it is in its reality , spot on ! I'd say... co-)

&....did somebody mention NAZI'S ?!?!? eee-) We are DOOMED !!! em) rip-)
(and my apologies here , as I was unable to add the pic' of 'machine-gunner' konx in this space...)
(ps: & that felt goooooood !! , as I have always wanted to write that in a forum . konx , konx , konx.... Oh , yes !)


Last edited by harmonic on Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

This is going to be my first, and quite possibly my last, post here.

I simply do not comprehend the animosity - the partisanship - which pervades the .org board, the .net board and the TJMK site. Thankfully McCall with the TMOMK wiki seems to have managed to keep that site above all this nastiness.

But I do have a suggestion for TMOMK (a site which I rely on, and admire immensely). At this point (as a 'journal of record') I think that a distinction between 'editorial' and 'court record' should be made absolutely transparent.

Undoubtedly it is useful for the 'casual reader' to get an 'overview' - but at this stage (IMO) the 'overviews' constitute 'editorial', and there are not (IMO) going to be any 'casual readers'.

I don't know how many people are going to understand what I am trying to say here.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sallyoo wrote:
This is going to be my first, and quite possibly my last, post here.

I simply do not comprehend the animosity - the partisanship - which pervades the .org board, the .net board and the TJMK site. Thankfully McCall with the TMOMK wiki seems to have managed to keep that site above all this nastiness.

But I do have a suggestion for TMOMK (a site which I rely on, and admire immensely). At this point (as a 'journal of record') I think that a distinction between 'editorial' and 'court record' should be made absolutely transparent.

Undoubtedly it is useful for the 'casual reader' to get an 'overview' - but at this stage (IMO) the 'overviews' constitute 'editorial', and there are not (IMO) going to be any 'casual readers'.

I don't know how many people are going to understand what I am trying to say here.


There is no mutual animousity. Some have pointed out that posting on this forum results in being banned on another forum - a simple fact, nothing more.
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Offline harmonic


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jester wrote:
Sallyoo wrote:
This is going to be my first, and quite possibly my last, post here.

I simply do not comprehend the animosity - the partisanship - which pervades the .org board, the .net board and the TJMK site. Thankfully McCall with the TMOMK wiki seems to have managed to keep that site above all this nastiness.

But I do have a suggestion for TMOMK (a site which I rely on, and admire immensely). At this point (as a 'journal of record') I think that a distinction between 'editorial' and 'court record' should be made absolutely transparent.

Undoubtedly it is useful for the 'casual reader' to get an 'overview' - but at this stage (IMO) the 'overviews' constitute 'editorial', and there are not (IMO) going to be any 'casual readers'.

I don't know how many people are going to understand what I am trying to say here.


There is no mutual animousity. Some have pointed out that posting on this forum results in being banned on another forum - a simple fact, nothing more.

Oh ! Well , if it happens to me , I will let surely let you all know about it here , a.s.a.p . wh-)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sallyoo wrote:
This is going to be my first, and quite possibly my last, post here.

I simply do not comprehend the animosity - the partisanship - which pervades the .org board, the .net board and the TJMK site. Thankfully McCall with the TMOMK wiki seems to have managed to keep that site above all this nastiness.

But I do have a suggestion for TMOMK (a site which I rely on, and admire immensely). At this point (as a 'journal of record') I think that a distinction between 'editorial' and 'court record' should be made absolutely transparent.

Undoubtedly it is useful for the 'casual reader' to get an 'overview' - but at this stage (IMO) the 'overviews' constitute 'editorial', and there are not (IMO) going to be any 'casual readers'.

I don't know how many people are going to understand what I am trying to say here.


Hi, Sallyoo, and welcome to the board. In a community of persons, there will always be personalities, and personal conflicts. Nor will any site be perfect; so sorry to see people come and go, but thanks for your many contributions to this cause. I hope you will drop in from time to time. We are NOT defined by our differences, thanks.

As to the Wiki, I do not see why we cannot have an editorial stance. As can be seen from the so called 'reporting' by CNN, Vanity Fair, and The Guardian, the line between journalism and editorial has been obliterated, and it is main stream journalism that has the black eye, not us. The Wiki is more than a court record, as can be seen from the mission statement http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Mission_Statement

What gives you the impression people here would not 'get' what you are trying to say, BTW? :)
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Offline harmonic


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I do , in fact , have something to add here (to Meredith's cause) in a more serious vein . So if you'll bear with me , I shall do my best to express what it is I have had in mind .

Once again , it is slightly related to .ORG , in the sense that it deals with the recent decision and announcement that they will be shutting down , at least in as much as the forum/discussion will close . Therefore , for all intents and purposes , it will cease to function and serve in the way it has .

I'm not much of a one for even taking too much note , or even having much of an awareness of any inter-site political 'goings-on' . They tend to float right over my head in fact . Though from what I can understand , such things do appear to have transpired over the years . That's undoubtedly unfortunate , but as such occurrences never really get my attention because they only serve as a distraction from the true aim of both sites , to put much energy into such things seems rather pointless or a waste of good energy and time that could be far better off being channeled into far more fruitful avenues .

I'll try to get to my main point here , and it is one that is not aimed or intended at any ONE , or any site .

Basically , it just occurred to me that it seemed very sad and a great loss , to see members saying goodbye and walking away , and a good site shutting its doors . In saying that , I can FULLY understand why folks may feel it is time for them to walk away from it , especially in light of this most recent and crushing finding handed down by the SC , and even more especially after all the amazing amounts of time and energy they have put in over such a long period of time . I fully respect them and their decision to do so , and actually admire them to a high degree for what they have done for Meredith's cause , and in her memory .

One other point I will add here , is that I did notice a statement from an Admin. member there (@ .ORG) , that offered the hope that someone else may want to step up and take over the site and keep it up and running . Maybe someone will . At least , I will hope that that may happen .

But for me , an admitted 'long time lurker' (around 4 years as a very regular guest reader on both sites , including TJMK & Wiki etc..) , and as someone who has only 'found their voice' very recently , I don't feel like I am ready to walk away . I see the spirit of these sites in relation to the concept of True Justice for Meredith Kercher . So in light of the most recent 'decision' (SC ruling) , I do not feel it has been served whatsoever . So why give up the fight for it now ?

Without any more continued rambling from me here , I hope I have already gotten across my feelings on the matter , and my expression is already clear and easy to understand .

To any readers , thanks for your time , and to all site Admin's , thanks for continuing to allow us all a place where we are able and encouraged to express ourselves in our continued search for the seemingly elusive true justice in this case , FOR MEREDITH !!! :D

Finally I would like to add here , that if such an event were to transpire , I would sincerely hope we see many members from there -(who are not on the board here already , and who may feel somewhat similarly to the above expressions)- come and migrate here to continue their much welcomed input , as well as any of our guests who may feel inspired to join in here at this time also ! We should not care for any seeming division , as really , we are all of us ONE in our purpose and UNITED we should stand ! gh-))


Last edited by harmonic on Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:16 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hear, hear, harmonic! x2
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Offline harmonic


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Hear, hear, harmonic! x2

THANK YOU , Ergon !!! hugz-)
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi Mom,

This is me. Don't tell anyone. Don't tell anyone anything, ever. This e-mail is from me, then, and it is from nobody. I needed to talk mom. About what I did, but didn't did, or do. Seeing as nobody with any sense, believes me, even though I've been let off, and I see it as a great business opportunity, the best thing I can do, is branch out, yes, I shall stand up for all of those who dint do nuffin and the law was out to get them.

Mom: Yes, I see, and this new endeavour, it will include advising people on money matters?
Person with no name: Yes it will.
Mom: I see, you will therefore urge all those who falsely accused anyone of rape and murder to pay the fines the court imposed, and be good?
Person with no name: Er well, that's nothing to do with it, that stuff is below me,
I must fight for justice all around the world, then people will believe me.
Mom: Sure they will, if they didn't believe you before, they sure will believe everything you say now, is this what you are saying?
Person with no name: Why of course, why wouldn't they believe me, the court said so so now, I will go ahead and make myself look even worse than ever before, I have already purchased a set of Florence Nightingale uniforms, to do the job. I shall nurse everyone better, until they believe me.
Mom: Very good, very good, I don't know how you come up with such brilliant ideas, they shall worship you.
Person with no name: Yes, they should.
Mom: Well, I have to get some sleep now Florence.
Person with no name or credibility: Sleep, mother, I made you famous, is this how you show your gratitude? Shouldn't you be starting on my series of books...
Mom: I promise I will start tomorrow, so tired.
No name no credibility: Yes they will see that I am good, good do you hear, good, fantastic, wonderful, a not killer.
Mom: Oh yes dear, they will all believe you... some day
No name no cred: Some day? No not some day, tomorrow, there she goes they will say, there goes that victim, oh how awful.
Mom: Yes dear, yes they will, goodnight do you want a couple of my Valium so you don't remember your nightmares, why not have the whole bottle.
No name no cred: Mother, I am soooo happy, I have nothing to fear, least of all my conscience.
Mom: Okay, then goodnight, I'm going to bed, night night

Mother retreats and there is the sound of keys jangling down the hall then, locking the door behind her.

No name no cred: Mom, what you locking the door on me for, you scared or what?

Mom: No no, not scared, just in case the wind blows it open and a bunch of people have a party in my room and force me to take part and wind up cutting my throat, that's all.

No name, no credibility, no integrity: Okay then mom, sweet dreams.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline penelope


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Well, hello .net.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

malvern wrote:
I find this whole topic amusing, shouldn't the foakers be upset Frank kissed Andrea , or do they just accept she's attractive and its Frank after all. On the topic of Frank it looks like he is missing friends in the Sollecito camp, what a saga,they need to find a way to make it all fit for "the best truth".


Frank's too busy dodging the fact he threatened the Sollecitos and the Sollecitos are too busy dodging the fact they leaked information further implicating Amanda Knox, malvern. So Bruce Fischer puts out (then denies he has anything to do with it, like Chris Mellas denies he had anything to do with the IP addresses used to spam journalists) a website with photos of a group of quite intelligent and beautiful people who all think Amanda Knox is guilty to counteract that? And says they "hate" Amanda Knox?

Wouldn't the corollary be, if these people think she's guilty, then perhaps she is?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

penelope wrote:
Well, hello .net.


Well hello, penelope, and welcome to .net hugz-)
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Offline harmonic


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:31 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

penelope wrote:
Well, hello .net.

gh-)) I'm so glad you joined us.! :D

(and just in a hushed whisper here...I am hopeful your tooth (or lack of thereof , really) , is feeling much better today) cu-))
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

harmonic wrote:
I do , in fact , have something to add here (to Meredith's cause) in a more serious vein . So if you'll bear with me , I shall do my best to express what it is I have had in mind .

Once again , it is slightly related to .ORG , in the sense that it deals with the recent decision and announcement that they will be shutting down , at least in as much as the forum/discussion will close . Therefore , for all intents and purposes , it will cease to function and serve in the way it has .

I'm not much of a one for even taking too much note , or even having much of an awareness of any inter-site political 'goings-on' . They tend to float right over my head in fact . Though from what I can understand , such things do appear to have transpired over the years . That's undoubtedly unfortunate , but as such occurrences never really get my attention because they only serve as a distraction from the true aim of both sites , to put much energy into such things seems rather pointless or a waste of good energy and time that could be far better off being channeled into far more fruitful avenues .

I'll try to get to my main point here , and it is one that is not aimed or intended at any ONE , or any site .

Basically , it just occurred to me that it seemed very sad and a great loss , to see members saying goodbye and walking away , and a good site shutting its doors . In saying that , I can FULLY understand why folks may feel it is time for them to walk away from it , especially in light of this most recent and crushing finding handed down by the SC , and even more especially after all the amazing amounts of time and energy they have put in over such a long period of time . I fully respect them and their decision to do so , and actually admire them to a high degree for what they have done for Meredith's cause , and in her memory .

One other point I will add here , is that I did notice a statement from an Admin. member there (@ .ORG) , that offered the hope that someone else may want to step up and take over the site and keep it up and running . Maybe someone will . At least , I will hope that that may happen .

But for me , an admitted 'long time lurker' (around 4 years as a very regular guest reader on both sites , including TJMK & Wiki etc..) , and as someone who has only 'found their voice' very recently , I don't feel like I am ready to walk away . I see the spirit of these sites in relation to the concept of True Justice for Meredith Kercher . So in light of the most recent 'decision' (SC ruling) , I do not feel it has been served whatsoever . So why give up the fight for it now ?

Without any more continued rambling from me here , I hope I have already gotten across my feelings on the matter , and my expression is already clear and easy to understand .

To any readers , thanks for your time , and to all site Admin's , thanks for continuing to allow us all a place where we are able and encouraged to express ourselves in our continued search for the seemingly elusive true justice in this case , FOR MEREDITH !!! :D

Finally I would like to add here , that if such an event were to transpire , I would sincerely hope we see many members from there -(who are not on the board here already , and who may feel somewhat similarly to the above expressions)- come and migrate here to continue their much welcomed input , as well as any of our guests who may feel inspired to join in here at this time also ! We should not care for any seeming division , as really , we are all of us ONE in our purpose and UNITED we should stand ! gh-))


Clander manages the back scene on the org site. Without someone like Clander, the site cannot run. Are they both walking away from the website? If so, the archives and the host name should be transferred.
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Offline harmonic


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I'm coming in right away here Jester , with an edited update on your Q's there , hopefully with one or two relevant quotes from those in senior (& knowledgeable) positions..

And , here we are with that for you all now;

This was announced first , on April 3rd ;
SkepticalBystander wrote:
I would also like to notify everyone who has posted and/or lurked here over the years that I think it is time for pmf.org to wind down the discussion. The reason is simple: the case is now truly closed and, unfortunately, Meredith Kercher and her family will never obtain the judicial closure they waited for so patiently. They have taken this crushing blow with their characteristic grace and so must we. They have spoken through their lawyer to let the world know that they are exhausted. Justice has let them down and now their only option is to seek closure and peace through other channels.

There are a multitude of other comments and responses to this announcement . For brevity's sake , I shall not include them all here , and I do believe Ergon is quite correct in the statement below . (I may come back to do a wee 'tidy up' here , and possibly include one or two more (very relevant) quotes , besides these further ones ;
Again here , from April 3;
SkepticalBystander wrote:
Between now and the formal end of discussion, there's ample time to review, analyze, offer insight, etc. You can step slowly toward the door, in other words.

SkepticalBystander wrote:
Thank you. Just to be clear: it is not true that I don't want to be the owner of this website any more. The discussion board was set up for a purpose and it has fulfilled its purpose. The Kercher family has spoken and I have listened. That's all.


This (again on April 3rd) from member jar , re; Motivations (? poss.)/Marasca Report translation project etc ,who is going to be involved in some capacity ;
jar wrote:
Is this idea of any interest? What do you think Skep? Is it your plan to close down the discussion forums and threads but leave the site up and navigable for, as I think was suggested recently, about three years, or more?

And , finally , this from Skep (from her reply..) ;
SkepticalBystander wrote:
That sounds like a positive project that requires something other than the current set-up. Clander, FBN and I won't begin to work on the winding down for at least a week, so I can't give more details right now. But certainly the contents of the board will be intact and searchable. In the meantime, think about the aims of the project and assemble your team. Do you want interested parties to pm you, jar ?


Hoping that goes some way , and is helpful here , in answering (at least some of) the questions you have raised , Jester . :)

PS : At this stage , I have been unable to find any comment from Clander . I could be mistaken , but I don't think he has yet made one (?) . At least , none that I myself am aware of .


Last edited by harmonic on Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:25 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

As I understand it, it will only be a read only archive, Jester. Beyond that, I do not know but am told they will announce shortly. We appreciate their offer to coordinate any volunteers who would be willing to translate the Marasca Report.

This site will of course be available to discuss and critique the report.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Would you just look at all these smilies showing up!

I'm going to hold the door open in case the 411 pops in! Hi, all.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
As I understand it, it will only be a read only archive, Jester. Beyond that, I do not know but am told they will announce shortly. We appreciate their offer to coordinate any volunteers who would be willing to translate the Marasca Report.

This site will of course be available to discuss and critique the report.


The archives are a community contribution: translations, photos, videos, transcripts, maps, perspectives. Those files clearly belong to the PerugiaMurderFile community. Transferring the host name is probably a good idea, and only a matter of a phone call from the current org host to transfer the host account to the net host. Seems straight forward ... almost a no-brainer in terms of what to do with the website now that it can be returned to one of the original owners.
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Offline harmonic


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ah , and here are a couple more quotes from Skep , again from the 3rd of April , that are very relevant indeed in the above regard.. ;
SkepticalBystander wrote:
................By the end of this month and perhaps before then, I'll provide a timeframe for the shutdown. I'll be working with Clander to ensure that this process is smooth and that all of the resource material created and shared over the years remains intact and available.

...................I digress. Those of you who feel you are not done can always join the people at dot net. For that matter, if anyone would like to keep this board up and running I would consider transferring ownership. I would advise anyone who is tempted by this offer to think long and hard about it first. My own preference is to let the discussion end here, on a positive note.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

harmonic wrote:
Ah , and here are a couple more quotes from Skep , again from the 3rd of April , that are very relevant indeed in the above regard.. ;
SkepticalBystander wrote:
................By the end of this month and perhaps before then, I'll provide a timeframe for the shutdown. I'll be working with Clander to ensure that this process is smooth and that all of the resource material created and shared over the years remains intact and available.

...................I digress. Those of you who feel you are not done can always join the people at dot net. For that matter, if anyone would like to keep this board up and running I would consider transferring ownership. I would advise anyone who is tempted by this offer to think long and hard about it first. My own preference is to let the discussion end here, on a positive note.


The discussion can continue here on a positive note, and the website host role can be transferred to .net. Problem solved.

Thanks for clarifying what's going on. I can't imagine that there would be a second thought about what to with the website archives given that the two people that have managed the site for the last couple of years (one longer than the other) want to end their involvement. Obviously the person that first looked after the technical end of org is capable of re-assuming that role - and I don't see this discussion and archive going "poof" in the near future.


Last edited by Jester on Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline harmonic


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sounds very good .

Now here is a response I got from my lengthy post of earlier , which I also copy/pasted and put up on .ORG .

It is from member MisterPink , and I like it . It sounds a very thoughtful , measured & wise response to my post...;
MisterPink wrote:
harmonic wrote:
Dear friends and supporters of True Justice for Meredith ,

In recent hours I have registered at .NET and written this post . I want to offer it here for you all to read , with the sincere hope that you may ALL find it acceptable , and perhaps even to your liking , in the spirit in which it has been both written and then offered here . So , for you ALL , and in all sincerity , from harmonic
I think the priorities are:
* Respect the Kercher's family wishes. I do not know if they have expressed an opinion on the continuation of pro-Meredith sites.
* Maintain the archives of PMF.org including multimedia files, accessible to Google. (The major drawback of PMF.net is it's not indexed by Google so it's very hard to find if you don't know about it.)
* If a discussion forum is to continue then there needs to be someone with enough time and IT skills to maintain it properly. PMF.net is significantly smaller than .org and I'm not sure they have the manpower to maintain a larger site, possibly containing the .org archives.
* Needs to be hosted in the U.S. where the defamation laws are not overly burdensome.
* Needs to be a venue for enlightened discussion and not a breeding ground for continued bickering with the perps and their supporters.

If the above can be met then I would welcome it. The case is over but it's not so easy to hang it up and move on.


Also Jester , it again seems rather relevant to what you have stated above , and is included for that reason , as opposed to being born from any sense of self-aggrandizement on my part . .
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I am glad to see some new members joined us to keep discussing the unfortunate outcome of this case.

It is sad to see .org shutting their doors. I regularly read the discussions over there and I deeply appreciate that a team to translate the latest motivations report will be organised. It will help us understand the final decision of the Supreme Court judges.

A warm welcome to everyone who has recently joined .net!
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:53 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

harmonic wrote:
Sounds very good .

Now here is a response I got from my lengthy post of earlier , which I also copy/pasted and put up on .ORG .

It is from member MisterPink , and I like it . It sounds a very thoughtful , measured & wise response to my post...;
MisterPink wrote:
harmonic wrote:
Dear friends and supporters of True Justice for Meredith ,

In recent hours I have registered at .NET and written this post . I want to offer it here for you all to read , with the sincere hope that you may ALL find it acceptable , and perhaps even to your liking , in the spirit in which it has been both written and then offered here . So , for you ALL , and in all sincerity , from harmonic
I think the priorities are:
* Respect the Kercher's family wishes. I do not know if they have expressed an opinion on the continuation of pro-Meredith sites.
* Maintain the archives of PMF.org including multimedia files, accessible to Google. (The major drawback of PMF.net is it's not indexed by Google so it's very hard to find if you don't know about it.)
* If a discussion forum is to continue then there needs to be someone with enough time and IT skills to maintain it properly. PMF.net is significantly smaller than .org and I'm not sure they have the manpower to maintain a larger site, possibly containing the .org archives.
* Needs to be hosted in the U.S. where the defamation laws are not overly burdensome.
* Needs to be a venue for enlightened discussion and not a breeding ground for continued bickering with the perps and their supporters.

If the above can be met then I would welcome it. The case is over but it's not so easy to hang it up and move on.


Also Jester , it again seems rather relevant to what you have stated above , and is included for that reason , as opposed to any sense of self-aggrandizement from myself .


Per MrPink's response, is there some suggestion that the victim's family would prefer that the translation of the final ruling be set aside, that the questions stop, that the ruling that more than one person committed the murder be forgotten?

I call BS on the IT skills and archive capability. Is there any question about who had the required IT skills when org was set up? I call BS on a website being un-indexed by Google. Google presents the most searched information period.

Org is hosted in the US. Do org websites have to be owned/hosted by US citizens? I doubt it.

Has to be grounds for enlightened discussion? Meaning what?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

There are quite a few technical and owner type things involved that are not my purview and beyond my capabilities, Jester. First, depending on Skep and Clander's decision what they will do, then what Michael will do. I will not address anything said there but not here.

So, till we hear from them, enjoy your holidays, every one, and welcome to NET to all new members!

As a lover of puns and alliteration, (I myself specialize in Malapropisms) I would be thrilled to have the 411 on board.

And not that I want to turn anyone away, but I should share this, which just might have the opposite effect, too honest for my own good :)

Someone on Twitter made reference to Walt Whitman's "o captain my captain" lament and I, loving that and also Robin Williams in Dead Poets Society, wrote "Dead Pets Society" quite not on purpose, I tell ya. If that doesn't earn us a boycott from ORG, I don't know what will :)
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Offline harmonic


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Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:38 am

Posts: 53

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

On a second , and more thorough , reading of MisterPink's post (as I've been in a bit of a whirlwind here in the last hour........)

In this case , I would defer to you on any day of the week Jester , and with these inarguable words of wisdom , I am very happy to do so , with every point you have made here . Hear , hear ! :)
Edit : Even though these are dressed as questions , that you obviously have both insight into and understanding of , it would be good to hear , and then know for sure , the answers . I'm certain we will know them.......in time .
jester wrote:
Per MrPink's response, is there some suggestion that the victim's family would prefer that the translation of the final ruling be set aside, that the questions stop, that the ruling that more than one person committed the murder be forgotten?

I call BS on the IT skills and archive capability. Is there any question about who had the required IT skills when org was set up? I call BS on a website being un-indexed by Google. Google presents the most searched information period.

Org is hosted in the US. Do org websites have to be owned/hosted by US citizens? I doubt it.

Has to be grounds for enlightened discussion? Meaning what?


Last edited by harmonic on Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ergon

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Posts: 7201

Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

It also is not my place to speak on behalf of the Kerchers, or, to say what they should do. But I have not heard one word of criticism from them so far and only good things, indirectly of course, of the appreciation they have felt for our efforts on behalf of Meredith. Nor have I heard they feel we should not continue to do so.

I do not deal with hypotheticals, sorry.
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Offline Jester


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Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

When I'm lost for words, I think in graphics.
Seems like a no brainer when asked who should look after the technical end of the archives, and thank you Michael for providing a space for us to collaborate on the guilty parties in the murder of Meredith Kercher.
Attachment:
PerugiaMurderFileArchives1a.jpg
Attachment:
PerugiaMurderFileArchives2a.jpg
Attachment:
PerugiaMurderFileArchives3b.jpg


Hopefully this isn't another estranged split from the IT technology person behind the scenes.
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Offline Jester


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Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 pm

Posts: 2500

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Chris_H wrote:
I’ll try to cover as many of your points as my memory allows me to. I don’t remember exactly which search terms I used to track down the Goebbels non-quote, and I just don’t remember why I chose the ISF site, as opposed to some other site. I was on my lunch hour and working quickly, and in retrospect I should have taken more time and more care. On the other hand, I had no idea that the ISF was not mainstream until I started looking into it further. I found out who Robert Faurisson was because I did a search on Mark Weber, about the same time as our email exchange. What I took away from that article was that Weber was not extreme enough to Faurisson’s way of thinking (which is pretty remarkable, if true).

Here is something attributed to Weber, courtesy of Wikipedia: “The IHR has insisted that they do not deny the Holocaust, claiming that, ‘The Institute does not 'deny the Holocaust.' Every responsible scholar of twentieth century history acknowledges the great catastrophe that befell European Jewry during World War II. All the same, the IHR has over the years published detailed books and numerous probing essays that call into question aspects of the orthodox Holocaust extermination story, and highlight specific Holocaust exaggerations and falsehoods.’[24]”

It seems to me that this stance allows Weber and his ilk to have their cake and to eat it, too. They can acknowledge it, but pretend it was not so extensive as others have claimed. This allows them to appeal to a broader spectrum of people. I seem to recall finding the article “The world is full of holocaust deniers,” by Emma Green in The Atlantic at some point in my search, and it is clear that some people do believe that the Holocaust has not been accurately reported (I am not one of them). With respect to Weber and the ISF some (such as a site that is associated with the US Holocaust Memorial Museum) would call this “Holocaust distortion,” whereas I used “Holocaust minimization” to express the same idea.

We may have a slightly different interpretation of Weber’s public views (I just read the quotes at Faurisson’s blog entry, not Weber’s original article), and I would be the first to acknowledge that you interpretation may well be closer to the truth. I was struck by Faurisson’s call for Weber to resign from the IHR. Your view of Weber’s true beliefs (that he actively revels in the despicable actions of the Nazis) is a highly plausible assessment, but I just don’t know enough to comment further. You seem to have been aware Weber’s activities for some time (I am glad that people are keeping a watch on him), and I have no reason to doubt what you say.

At least one commenter at ISF (formerly JREFF) accused me of being a holocaust-denier (some of those comments were removed from public display by the moderators of that discussion board). With respect to the exchange on my blog, I copied it before I deleted it from the blog. I deleted it because the person with whom I had been communicating had become personally abusive, and that exceeded what I was willing to tolerate. My recollection is that a commenter on another discussion board (not ISF but one devoted to the Meredith Kercher case) also copied the exchange, but added some highly inflammatory verbiage (which appeared in red colored font) that I most emphatically did not say. My recollection is that he also acknowledged making that section up, but this was almost two months ago, and I did not copy it down. I think that it has since been deleted from that discussion board. I hope this clarifies the issues about which you expressed concern.

kind regards


Forgive me for jumping into the middle, but could you please provide a link to the first article? Over the years, I copied some of the DNA numbers, analyses, transcripts, twitters. I might have a screen shot. Without a reference point, it seems like a snake eating its' tail.
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Offline harmonic


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Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:38 am

Posts: 53

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:02 am   Post subject: Re: WITH LOVE   

Ergon wrote:
Those who think they 'won', lost.

Those who say they 'lost', won.


~ ATLAN HEALING
#healin140

Ahh , almost overlooked that li'l gem , Ergon . Thanks .

Brought swiftly to mind some lyrics by an artist you'll all know well ;

" Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won’t come again
And don’t speak too soon
For the wheel’s still in spin
And there’s no tellin’ who that it’s namin’
For the loser now will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin’....
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
....The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is rapidly fadin’
And the first one now will later be last
For the times they are a-changin’ "

~ r-(( ........r-(( ~ ~ r-((........ r-(( ~
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Offline Ergon

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Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Timeless lyrics. Thanks, harmonic.
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   



Happy Easter to All who celebrate it!

Have a great day, everyone!
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Offline lauowolf


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Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:50 am

Posts: 525

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Just dusting off my old sign-in info and taking a quick look around.
Mostly I just lurk, and intermittently at that - life has a way of rudely interrupting my regularly scheduled internet time, and months go by before I pick up the threads again.
I'll be interested to see what happens with the book trials, not to mention the SC's justification of their peculiar verdict.
Nice to see some familiar faces here.
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Offline ericparoissien


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Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:14 am

Posts: 55

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
The Bongiorno Interview on La7 (duration: ~ 12 minutes):

Giulia Bongiorno: Meredith, judgment had taken dragonflies for lanterns

An interview with the lawyer Giulia Bongiorno, here is how it was possible to completely reverse the judgment of Appeals [Court] and get acquittal of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

LA7 VIDEO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EqF_bY6cro#t=181
____________________________________________________

I can't bear to listen to her sharp, penetrating voice. Maybe Eric Paroissien would be so kind to subtitle this video?


interview Giulia Bongiorno 31/03/2015
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2lt65f
Is there really a difference between the world as you say it is and the world as it is?
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Offline Sallyoo


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:20 pm

Posts: 102

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Sallyoo wrote:
This is going to be my first, and quite possibly my last, post here.

I simply do not comprehend the animosity - the partisanship - which pervades the .org board, the .net board and the TJMK site. Thankfully McCall with the TMOMK wiki seems to have managed to keep that site above all this nastiness.

But I do have a suggestion for TMOMK (a site which I rely on, and admire immensely). At this point (as a 'journal of record') I think that a distinction between 'editorial' and 'court record' should be made absolutely transparent.

Undoubtedly it is useful for the 'casual reader' to get an 'overview' - but at this stage (IMO) the 'overviews' constitute 'editorial', and there are not (IMO) going to be any 'casual readers'.

I don't know how many people are going to understand what I am trying to say here.


Hi, Sallyoo, and welcome to the board. In a community of persons, there will always be personalities, and personal conflicts. Nor will any site be perfect; so sorry to see people come and go, but thanks for your many contributions to this cause. I hope you will drop in from time to time. We are NOT defined by our differences, thanks.

As to the Wiki, I do not see why we cannot have an editorial stance. As can be seen from the so called 'reporting' by CNN, Vanity Fair, and The Guardian, the line between journalism and editorial has been obliterated, and it is main stream journalism that has the black eye, not us. The Wiki is more than a court record, as can be seen from the mission statement http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Mission_Statement

What gives you the impression people here would not 'get' what you are trying to say, BTW? :)


Okay. Firstly I did not include the word 'here' ..the impression that people here... Thus I hope it is clear that I have no intention of in any way belittling the opinions of people on this board - that is an interpretation which you have chosen, and have unjustifiably attributed to me by (I will be charitable) inaccurately playing about with my words.

But this feeds exactly into what I am/was/will be trying to say, and which is perhaps nowadays difficult to understand, and this is about the concept of a Journal of Record. Clearly you consider that because CNN etc. make stuff up and mix editorial, paid placements, probably also advertising material, then it's what everybody should do. Here my disagreement is fundamental. However, I shall take this discussion off for a friendly chat with McCall - I have only some very tiny issues with his site which could be resolved with a couple of mouse clicks!
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Offline zorba


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Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Trying to put my finger on what is what in this case, with respect to the acts and then the result, with all of that time in between, what's it like?

I think, that with so many different sessions, at different courts, so much data is accumulated that it is near-on impossible for people to come along 8 years later and really get to grips with everything.

The DNA was not the only thing that placed these people in that house when Meredith was murdered. Based on that, there was a whole lot that should have been considered, and it was, but definitely not in a correct way by the last group of judges. Even the mere fact that both accused (through all of their helpers but by their own deeds) absolutely everyone else of doing wrong things, should have been an important clue as to the truth of the matter. If they'd accused one or two, but no, the spoilt son felt he needed to accuse his very own lawyers of wrong-doing, by having failed him in some way.

This result more or less agrees then with the way these two have painted all of the Italian institutions, while saying they (the two) said we believe in Italian justice.

It feels like the thickest kid in class, clearly with learning difficulties, got to decide on safety measures for the infants going rock climbing and nobody stopped it.

Bad signs was the one man immediately announcing, before any sessions, the very same things that Hellmann announced, as a precursor to what was then bound to come based on his introduction.

It shows a disrespect for what a court is supposed to stand for, where a judge/judges may have studied paperwork but still have to act in the now on the basis of what is yet to be presented, if all had been presented and then a judge had the right to announce things as though they were all a matter of a done deal, then what's the point of going into court, just announce that the judge made his mind up while sat at home watching telly, twirling thumbs and picking his nose.

I can't help felling as though the case turned into an episode live from the deepest sewer. It stinks.
Just because a few men in a court decide, does not mean that one has to agree with it just because they said so.

It will come out in the end, I'm certain, simply because when it concerns humans, humans obviously do the human things, like have relationships, and arguments, and normally, well people get divorced after saying for so and so many years that they loved one another, then they are out for blood, more often than not, wishing it would appear, to destroy the other person like nobody would even dare start doing to some worst ever enemy. How then so such people secure against the normal things in life, that are bound to occur, and what happens when things turn sour?

The person in Seattle, if she ever falls in love with some other guy, or does anything to upset this male she has now, God only knows what might happen.

Glad it is not my problem, however, it is a problem, for those at the centre of it all.

Aside from that, in my mind I know what happened, in a more or less way, I know they were there and that they murdered Meredith. Therefore, if it does have to be the way it is now, I could not care less, nothing is going to convince me that they are not guilty.

Now Guede, he hasn't had any books deals, is not primed to make millions out of murder and may therefore start feeling sore when he gets out and starts hitting hard times, for what miracle will come his way and give him a life?

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sallyoo, take off your combat boots and un-twist your knickers. Ergon was just having a little fun with you. We all understood what you meant. hbc)
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi, lauowolf, Sallyoo, harmonic, Penelope, and Eric! co-)


Last edited by JohnQ on Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I had a thought Id Luke to share after reading the comments following something Knox wrote for a Seattle paper.

Lat me say up front I didn't read what she wrote . I couldn't stomach it. It was some lie about being grateful her innocence has been recognized and going forward blah blah. I don't want to read what Knox and Sollecito write and I don't want to watch them on television.

Anyway, someone said to read the comments because they weren't supportive, meaning even in Seattle.

They mixed. But this is what I noticed: all the comments in favor (or almost 100%) used the word "hater." These people had a pack mentality. On the contrary, each of the comments against seemed made a unique point. These people didn't seem to know each other.

So, it seemed that Knox has a core group of rabid followers, but after that people seem either not to care or to believe that she's guilty. One person even had the good sense to point out the fact that Knox is an ex-con who spent three Yeats in prison for falsely accusing her boss of murder.

If this pattern holds up, Knox has little support and I imagine she'll have even less in the future as her groupies fall away (they might develop other interests and some of them might figure out she has no interest in them) and the general public in Italy and around the world ends up questioning the legitamacy of the verdict (it's hard for me to see how this doesn't happen).

This isn't my most succinct post, but I guess my thought is that Knox will fail at this game she's playing od telling the public her "innocence" has been "proven." Me thinks she doth protest too much.


Last edited by JohnQ on Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline zorba


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Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Sallyoo, take off your combat boots and un-twist your knickers. Ergon was just having a little fun with you. We all understood what you meant. hbc)


That's what I thought too.

Ergon hasn't been anything other than friendly to those showing up here.

Writing the word 'here' instead of 'on this' has nothing to do with anyone playing with anyone else's words.

That sentence is easy to misinterpret because writing the word 'here' is not the best way to say: on this matter, in relation to this/ with respect to this matter/on this subject, regarding this matter, etc.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline zorba


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Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

JohnQ wrote:
I had a thought Id Luke to share after reading the comments following something Knox wrote for a Seattle paper.

Lat me say up front I didn't read what she had written. I couldn't stomach it. It was some lie about Boeing grateful her innocence has been recognized and going forward blah blah. I don't want to read what Knox and Sollecito write and I don't want to watch them on television.

Anyway, someone said to read the comments because they weren't supportive, meaning even in Seattle.

They mixed. But this is what I noticed: all the comments in favor (or almost 100%) used the word "hater." These people had a pack mentality. On the contrary, each of the comments against seemed made a unique point. These people didn't seem to know each other.

So, it seemed that Knox has a core group of rabid followers, but after that people seem either not to care or to believe that she's guilty. One person even had the good sense to point out the fact that Knox is an ex-con who spent three Yeats in prison for falsely accusing her boss of murder.

If this pattern holds up, Knox has little support and I imagine she'll have even less in the future as her groupies fall away (they might develop other interests and some of them might figure out she has no interest in them) and the general public in Italy and around the world ends up questioning the legitamacy of the verdict (it's hard for me to see how this doesn't happen).

This isn't my most succinct post, but I guess my thought is that Knox will fail at this game she's playing od telling the public her "innocence" has been "proven." Me thinks she doth protest too much.



Since 2007, I have never been able to stomach a single video in its entirety. If I listen to her I sense very different things from what she was trying to get people to believe.

When I heard her screeching, whining voice, the only thing I sensed was how awful it must have been for Meredith when this person, who was and is entirely unstable, took out her lifetime of frustrations on Meredith.
I think the individual concerned has a very bad temper, I could be wrong, but it sure feels that way.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jester wrote:
JohnQ wrote:
I have been "permanently banned" from org. Well, I guess I am in good company.

Skep wrote me a PM saying, "Stop being a little Hitler." and demanded I edit some posts and/or apologize to one of her favorites.

I lost my temper. 1000 posts for Meredith and Skep calls me Hitler? ! IMO, she has some deep seated personal problems and I'm glad she's shutting down her board.

I'm half Jewish and even if I weren't she has some nerve calling me Hitler.

She also went on a rampage and deleted everyone's posts she didn't like. I couldn't have edited my post if I had wanted to. :roll:


Welcome! You are now hanging out with the cool kids, where there is no wrist slapping for speaking your mind.
Godwin's Law: "whoever mentioned [Hitler or] Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress".

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/godwins-law


Thanks, Jester!

It was unfortunate but I don't hołd grudges. I'm looking forward. I want to know how the Supreme Court threw Massei, the Supreme Court's annulment of Hellmann, and Nencini down some black hole. I want to know how they ignored the evidence of guilt against Knox and Sollecito that went on and on and on. I want to know what the Kerchers decide to do (or not) given they have a couple of options. We all must decide for ourselves and I'm not done yet.
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Offline harmonic


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Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:38 am

Posts: 53

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hiya JohnQ ! and my warmest greetings to all ! and not least of all to the many members who are making their way here...'tis wonderful !!

I trust you are all having a lovely , restful holiday period and enjoying time with friends and family .

I'm already feeling so happy here in my new , Meredith related internet home . What a great feeling and vibe this place has , and one I'm sure is a result of the attitude and intent of both the Mod Admin's ( ;) ) , and older members alike .

The board lives ! Long live the board , and all the fine members of it !!! tt-) (dare I say .ORG resembles something akin to a wake at the moment ?!) ss)

Finally , may I say it has been very nice to have seen you here on a couple of occasions , Sallyoo ! I hope we may have the pleasure of your fine company many more times in the (near) future .

So come on , and pull up a chair . I see Napia5 has gone out and got you a lovely new blue couch to sit or recline comfortably on when you are here , so....... Also , perhaps Ergon can delegate a newbie (who...? me ?!? ) to come and bring you refreshing snacks and drinks from time to time , also . hbc) :D (& certainly , I would be very happy to do it !)

Warm hugs to all (and did I mention how very happy I feel to be here ?) . Oh yes , right , well it is an honour for me too , then ! th-)

d-)) br-)) cl-) Yay-) da-)) pp-( gh-)) pp-( da-)) Yay-) cl-) br-)) d-))
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Grom the Wiki mission statement:

"a range of possible motives, including that it might well have been the result of a sex game gone wrong;"

Does anyone have the text handy? I remember it said a rangę, I remember it said (possible premeditated) intent to kill, but I don't remember the words- "sex game gone wrong".
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Offline Ergon

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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:20 pm

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Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Here I thought the smiley face I appended made it clear no offense was taken, or intended, Sallyoo :)

What you wrote about the Wiki should perhaps have been addressed to McCall, but I responded with my opinion. That you extrapolated "Clearly you consider that because CNN etc. make stuff up and mix editorial, paid placements, probably also advertising material, then it's what everybody should do." - who's attributing what to whom?

Happy Easter to all.
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

harmonic, thanks!!!!

Will you please PM The411 and Mimi and ask them to join US or are they stopping?

mul-)
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Offline harmonic


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Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:38 am

Posts: 53

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Will do , for sure JohnQ ! I did have such things on my mind too , though Mimi I did not think of (due to inexperienced oversight) , but I indeed will . And The 411 ? It will be my great honour to do so ! How can we endure & be sustained , without the wit , humour and wisdom of The 411 ?!? :shudder:

I'm not sure if SomeAlibi is on-board here (?) . If not I shall PM also . I got (and maybe you did too..) a nice PM from SA , in regard to that unfortunate "severe confusion" which arose recently . That was a very nice PM in support of you , which was exactly how I was feeling on that matter myself , hence my coming forth and speaking out on it in the forum there .

Anyway , I will get onto that , in all seriousness , within the coming 24 hour period . And thank you.. :)
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Offline zorba


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Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

Posts: 4233

Location: London

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

One of the many Gnostic texts in the Nag Hammadi scrolls found in clay pots in the Egyptian desert, containing testaments known of but never before found, that show an entirely different take on Jesus and spirituality:

The Book of Thomas the Contender


"Therefore it is necessary for us to speak to you, since this is the doctrine of the perfect. If, now, you desire to become perfect, you shall observe these things; if not, your name is 'Ignorant', since it is impossible for an intelligent man to dwell with a fool, for the intelligent man is perfect in all wisdom. To the fool, however, the good and bad are the same - indeed the wise man will be nourished by the truth

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Note:

SA, I can't access your .org PM re: morals. Please resend it to me here. Thanks.

Fast Pete, I can't access your .org PM. I'll e-mail you. Thanks.
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Offline harmonic


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Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:38 am

Posts: 53

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ah well ... , I've decided to include Skep's response to both MisterPink's and my post(s) that are quoted not too far above in the forum here , so I don't see a need to include (or quote) either of those again . But I do want to add Skep's post to add a sense of finality to that matter , as it is in the forum (thanks or no thanks to me) now . I don't add it here with the intention of creating a firestorm , or with ANY sense of disrespecting Skep . I very much do respect her in many ways , mainly for all the effort put in for Meredith's cause , so really , I just want to add it for a sense of closure , at least in as much as what it deals with is something that has been brought and discussed most reasonably here already . So , here is her post then , from April 5th ;
SkepticalBystander wrote:
I pretty much agree with the above. The archives of PMF.org will be maintained but not on .net (there are technical drawbacks but also others).
Many posters and lurkers have sent me pm's indicating they are ready to move on, which means ending their active involvement and so not joining net. I share their view and decision. For some newer to the case and this community, our decision may be hard to understand. I ask that you make your own decision for yourself and respect the right of others to do the same.
I am interested in reading the SC decision for the reasons given by Tom and Jackie and, as Tom noted, it may well be that there are valid points of law made by the defenses and that these points motivated the final ruling. People can debate and argue for years about it or accept it and move on. For me, the latter is the best course of action. I don't hate or know the two former suspects and don't wish to know them. Nor do I wish them ill. I don't hate Italy or its system of justice and in fact believe it is probably no more flawed than that of my own country, a country where OJ and Casey were acquitted and so was the man who gunned down Trayvon Martin. On the other side, the system also incarcerates innocent people, though not as many as the incarcerated would have us believe.

Unlike some, I don't see a huge moral difference between the more rabid fringes on both sides waging war over this case on the internetz. For every Knox groupie sending me tweets that refer to me as a bitch who should rot in hell, there's someone who believes they have Meredith Kercher's wishes at heart when they send death threats to Amanda Knox or one of her supporters. Indeed, I've been called worse by some who profess to be supporters of Meredith. I take these reactions to be misdirected anger and don't wish to encourage them by providing a space to dwell on what ultimately went down in Italy. I hope there is at least one good investigative journalist out there with the guts to shine a light on every aspect of the murder of Meredith Kercher, its investigation, and the trials that followed.

O.K , and a fair , thoughtful and reasoned post it is . Personally , or if I read it that way at least , I am going to have to say I do not think her opening words , that she "pretty much agrees with the above" , is in any way directed at my (what I'll name here for conveniences sake) "we are all of us ONE in our purpose" post , which was my open letter and humble request to all members of both boards for their consideration .

Further , and once again , at least from my own perspective , the words ;
SkepticalBystander wrote:
Many posters and lurkers have sent me pm's indicating they are ready to move on, which means ending their active involvement and so not joining net. I share their view and decision. For some newer to the case and this community, our decision may be hard to understand. I ask that you make your own decision for yourself and respect the right of others to do the same.

...I take to being slightly more directed in my way . That's cool , and o.k by me (honestly) , but yes , although I may be a new member registration-wise (yeah , a LONG time lurker/guest both here and there) , I am certainly NOT a newcomer to this case . Especially considering how outraged and interested I became by it , as soon as I had read the (at that time) newly published Follain book on the case , whenever that was . There are a few other comments I can read between the lines of somewhat , that I may not agree with , but that does not matter and I will not go into them in any way further here now . It has passed , and now in the past . It just stands for what it is , and is really not a big deal . :)

Finally , I also make it ABUNDANTLY clear in my "we are all of us ONE in our purpose" post , how very much I DO RESPECT the decisions of others , and also , that I can COMPREHEND their reasons why . I express those things (I thought?) very clearly there in my "open letter" too . Please see for yourselves if you like with a re-read just to confirm that . Anyway , like I said , I'm cool with that , and certainly do NOT take any great offense at that (IF it indeed even was intended in my direction) , whatsoever . Nor am I one to "invent" any heavy subject , that in reality has no substance , OR one to hold grudges in any way against people whose intent and actions are not really harmful of hurtful .

All the above I have once again written only with my hearty and humble intent , to engender PEACE and kindness , amongst members of both boards . :) Simple and honest .

I am having a sense now , that it may be time to pack up my things and depart .ORG very soon , or at least , stop "camping out" there , and wave a sad but sincere goodbye wg-)) I consider not ONE kind person there to be my 'enemy' in ANY way .

Thank you all for so graciously 'adopting' , and warmly welcoming me , and a few others so far , too ! th-)


Last edited by harmonic on Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

Posts: 503

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

My harmonic you are a busy little bee!
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Offline harmonic


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Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:38 am

Posts: 53

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

:lol: Thank you , malvern ! & Lovely to 'meet' you !

I am taking that as a compliment ..., and for someone who takes a sense of pride in their business (and who just LOVES bee's too!) how could I interpret it in any other way ?!? :) th-)


& I shall look forward to 'seeing' you around ! (bzzzz bzzzzz) d-)) pp-(


Last edited by harmonic on Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

Posts: 503

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Oh of course , I just love bees they are my favorite creatures ,making honey and all that . They work so hard at it too!
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I apologize to one and all for my spell check. It's ruining every word. I have to look into it. No, I'm not drunk. nw)
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Offline MisterPink


Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:27 pm

Posts: 10

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jester wrote:
I call BS on a website being un-indexed by Google. Google presents the most searched information period.

Hola,

What I'm saying is that when I Google "Jester site:perugiamurderfile.net" I come up with nothing. I'm not internet savvy enough to know why this is. But it doesn't seem to be a good thing for a site that is working to keep the truth about Meredith and what happened to her alive.

It doesn't appear that Skep is going to let the .org archives be hosted here so any discussion of whether it's technically feasible is moot. It's unfortunate because in my view it belongs here. I just hope it remains accessible.

I haven't heard anything from the Kerchers about the future of PMF or TJMK or any other sites. If they were to say that they didn't want me to post I would respect their wishes, and I expect that anyone running a pro-Meredith site would do the same.
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Offline ericparoissien


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Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:14 am

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:16 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

ericparoissien wrote:
guermantes wrote:
The Bongiorno Interview on La7 (duration: ~ 12 minutes):

Giulia Bongiorno: Meredith, judgment had taken dragonflies for lanterns

An interview with the lawyer Giulia Bongiorno, here is how it was possible to completely reverse the judgment of Appeals [Court] and get acquittal of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

LA7 VIDEO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EqF_bY6cro#t=181
____________________________________________________

I can't bear to listen to her sharp, penetrating voice. Maybe Eric Paroissien would be so kind to subtitle this video?


interview Giulia Bongiorno 31/03/2015
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2lt65f
Is there really a difference between the world as you say it is and the world as it is?


Sorry, the settings on that video didn't allow everyone to watch, here is the new link:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2lt65 ... redith_fun
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Offline ericparoissien


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

MisterPink wrote:
Jester wrote:
I call BS on a website being un-indexed by Google. Google presents the most searched information period.

Hola,

What I'm saying is that when I Google "Jester site:perugiamurderfile.net" I come up with nothing. I'm not internet savvy enough to know why this is. But it doesn't seem to be a good thing for a site that is working to keep the truth about Meredith and what happened to her alive.

It doesn't appear that Skep is going to let the .org archives be hosted here so any discussion of whether it's technically feasible is moot. It's unfortunate because in my view it belongs here. I just hope it remains accessible.

I haven't heard anything from the Kerchers about the future of PMF or TJMK or any other sites. If they were to say that they didn't want me to post I would respect their wishes, and I expect that anyone running a pro-Meredith site would do the same.


Certainly Clander can provide a duplicate of the archive, or anyone can use a site bulk downloader, even if it took 3 days and 3 nights, it's worth it.
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Offline harmonic


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Dear PMF.NET members ,

At this point I feel I would like to mention one or two further things here , to hopefully go some way in explaining the reason behind several of my recent posts .

And that is , my being responsible for bringing quotes over from .ORG , and discussing them . As far as I am concerned , that is IT in that regard for me now , & I plan to entirely desist from this practice from this point forward . It was something I felt I should do in light of Jester's -(& Jester , no blame upon you there at all...as I take FULL responsibility for my words and deeds)- questions yesterday about what was happening , and what had been announced , at .ORG in recent days . That was the only intent behind my doing so . I felt my latest post above also addressed that , so I included it .

None of these things were done to in any way direct criticism at ANY member , from ANY site . Never one to be any kind of s#@t-stirrer , it was the very farthest thing from my mind . Honestly , I do not believe one iota of umbrage should be taken in such a way by anyone , as in all honesty , they were only offered in the spirit of providing information . But if anyone felt at all criticized , well , I'm being clear here , but I shall still offer you my sincere apologies nonetheless .

Therefore , I am finished and done with that now , and plan to carry on from this point as just the simple and agreeable member that I am , and with the continued thrust and purpose behind what it is we find ourselves all here for . We all know what that is , but I will say it (loud and clear) once more...... True Justice for Meredith Kercher .

I certainly was not trying to be in any way meddlesome , nor be a thorn in anyone's side .

So in a simple gesture of politeness & civility..
Sincerely and with thanks ,
~ h


Last edited by harmonic on Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline JohnQ


Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:41 am

Posts: 362

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

harmonic wrote:
Dear PMF.NET members ,

At this point I feel I would like to mention one or two further things here , to hopefully go some way in explaining the reason behind several of my recent posts .

And that is , my being responsible for bringing quotes over from .ORG , and discussing them . As far as I am concerned , that is IT in that regard for me now , & I plan to entirely desist from this practice from this point forward . It was something I felt I should do in light of Jester's -(& Jester , no blame upon you there at all...as I take FULL responsibility for my words and deeds)- questions yesterday about what was happening , and what had been announced , at .NET in recent days . That was the only intent behind my doing so . I felt my latest post above also addressed that , so I included it .

None of these things were done to in any way direct criticism at ANY member , from ANY site . Never one to be any kind of s#@t-stirrer , it was the very farthest thing from my mind . Honestly , I do not believe one iota of umbrage should be taken in such a way by anyone , as in all honesty , they were only offered in the spirit of providing information . But if anyone felt at all criticized , well , I'm being clear here , but I shall still offer you my sincere apologies nonetheless .

Therefore , I am finished and done with that now , and plan to carry on from this point as just the simple and agreeable member that I am , and with the continued thrust and purpose behind what it is we find ourselves all here for . We all know what that is , but I will say it (loud and clear) once more...... True Justice for Meredith Kercher .

I certainly was not trying to be in any way meddlesome , nor be a thorn in anyone's side .

So in a simple gesture of politeness & civility..
Sincerely and with thanks ,
~ h


hugz-)

You didn't do anything wrong. I'm sure we all understand and appreciate you.

th-)
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Offline harmonic


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thank you , JohnQ . That is very kind , and heartwarming , of you to say .

Well , seeing as I was speaking of bringing post over from .org , here is one I'd be rather more pleased to share that I wrote there last week . I'm happy to do so because A) It is much more 'Meredith-centric' , in that she is very much in the central focus of this wee piece here , and B) It is also very applicable here (i.e my feelings & expression remain unchanged) , therefore not in any way out of place here whatsoever . What I am TRYING , rather desperately (lol) to say there IS : I would have written exactly this same post HERE ! :)

I was even awarded the Post of the Day (by The411 !) for it . I believe The411 was being FAR too generous , and really just wanted to encourage this fledgeling poster somewhat . I want , very much , to offer it here for anyone who may care to read it . Not as a show of any writing prowess I may believe myself to possess (fairly limited at best there , I'd say) , nor born of any ego-driven mania on my part. I'd hope it went a little way also , in letting you get to know me and the feelings and interest that I have toward this case , a bit better to some degree . I enjoy just simply being able to share with like minded people . That , to me , is a source of great joy !

In all humility then , from March 30th : (and NO edits ! :)

-------

" Well , it may have been a bitter pill to have had to have swallowed , but this tragic outcome , once again , has to be accepted and assimilated . What other choice is there ?

So yes , it has finally sunk in now , as sad and unwanted as it all is . I too , had such high hopes , and in fact believed I could almost smell the fragrance of sweet justice for the wonderful young lady who has brought us all together here , hanging in the air .

I have had to ask myself , was there even a decision to be made amongst them , going into all this ? Taking care not to go into a lot of detail there , I am sure you will get my drift .

Still , the reason , and the intent , behind my post here , is to instead attempt to accentuate the positive , and find some light here to hopefully expand upon , and perhaps add a little brightness to you all , as well as myself , in what could be seen without exaggeration as rather dark times for those of us in our continuing search for true justice for Meredith .

So , speaking for myself , and my own experience of this case , I shall outline a brief history of it and see what I am able to come up with to offer to you here , in a small but heartfelt and honest way .

I can't tell you the where , when or how of my first hearing about the tragedy in Perugia . I know it was not via the MSM , as I have not been either informed or entertained by a T.V set in decades , nor did I have a computer or internet access until four years ago . Anyway , I believe I stumbled upon the Follain book in my local library , read it , then promptly went out and procured a copy for myself , and read it again . I could not believe the story I read !

Fast-forward to the four years ago mentioned above , now , and when I finally accessed the net for the first time with any real facility . Yes , I stumbled upon TJMK and swiftly found these two (.net and .org sites) , respectively . I am trying to be mindful in employing brevity here , believe it or not , so please bear with me .

I did decide to join here as a member at that time (on a borrowed laptop , which I did not have access to for long , which I've made mention of in my first post here since rejoining as harmonic) , and made a single post regarding the missing diary pages and got a nice response from Skep (and thank you!) . Then somebody gave me an old laptop (the one I'm still using here) , and I was in , in earnest everyday here as one in a variable number of guests , reading all the information and news of all things relating to finding justice for Meredith , as my only trusted source of info . May I add here , that you people should feel so proud of what you have done in this case over the years that I witnessed . I can't really say enough on that , but I sincerely feel you should all be holding your heads high for all your ceaseless and untiring efforts here . Just brilliant work !

There , I have arrived in the present time again , and I hope that was not too long a personal journey to have taken you on .

March 25th , 2015 . The big day , or so we thought... We all know the story from here , but come March 27th , due to fear of server overload (I suspect) I was unable to any longer have access as a guest . Panic time !! I hit the twitter feeds (and thank you , Kristeva!) for the very first time , and found I could not access those either . More panic !!! So my only solution was to rejoin here to feel a part of heralding in the victory for Meredith and her long suffering family . But , alas on that front........ Again , I want to move on here now , and change tack a little .

I should have re-joined here years ago ! I have had very few people I could really discuss all this with , though they all did lend me at least a sympathetic ear , and bless them for that . But what was I thinking ? O.K , I'll explain . I did not really feel in some way worthy of being here . What could I say that could possibly make a difference , or help in this situation ? But that was sheer foolishness on my part , and I regret that now . As here I am again , and here I feel I have been accepted , and welcomed , just for who I am and my own interest in this case that I may humbly try to share with you all . Thank you all , so very much , as this means a great deal to me . To simply share , and express my feelings here , is valid , and I now see that this is really what it is all about here . That the spirit of this site both allows and encourages people to join and share however they are able and care to .

May I take an opportunity now to invite anyone who may be 'lurking' as a guest , as I did for so long , to come and join here , and share your input , however small or large you may feel it to be . I bet you will be soon feeling as happy and rewarded , as I now do as a result .

FINALLY (lol) , I noticed my initial posts were really aimed and sort of came out swinging at one of the perp's in this case . I believe that was as a result of never having , or really taking , the opportunity to vent my feelings and express my frustrations , and years of feeling outraged . Yes , it did all come pouring out , perhaps a little forcefully , as I have never publicly taken a swipe at either of the pair , though must have been itching to do so for a long time . I hope that I did not come across as some sort of vengeful hater , as I can assuredly state that that is not my nature or intent of heart .

Thank you , Stan , for all the beautiful photo's posted of Meredith and her dear friends . How uplifted I feel seeing her in such happy times !!

And thank you , Fiona , for your most thought provoking post regarding the outstanding Kercher family , and your thoughts on their possible ideals , on page 30 of this current thread installment . That really inspired a great deal of thought and reflection within me . What a wonderful group of people you truly are . I will say it once more ... What an honour and cause for happiness it is for me to be amongst you again in these times . Thank you for hearing me , and for allowing me a voice .

Hear ye , one and all ...Somehow and some way , true justice for Meredith WILL prevail !! "

--------
Yes , so there you have it , .NET . It's nothing very meritorious , but as you will learn to expect from me , it IS at least from the heart and honest. (I do also have ONE more post I'd like to bring over in a few days maybe . Please bear with me then , and humour me a little too , possibly.....) I'll try to write some more 'original' posts also , as I'm never really short of an idea or feeling , to express in this case , I am finding .

Still , I am quite sad to hear the recent decision from .org . But what can I do , other than accept it and move on , as I am now in the process of . I take a deep measure of solace from the fact I can now exist quite happily and contentedly , here . I shudder to think what life (in relation to this profoundly sad case) would be like without this oasis we can all share together in . Without such a place , I feel I might instead become like some riven cloud , with no sphere to inhabit . *With a deep sense of gratitude & thanks , then .*

picture of a pumpkin
This Post has been edited by a Moderator
Details: Does this help the margins, guermantes?
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Offline harmonic


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Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:38 am

Posts: 53

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

ooops ! sor-)

my baaad ! stup-)

accidental post ! n-(( naughty harmonic !! nnn-))
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Offline zorba


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Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:11 am

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Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Something seems to have wide-screened the site, though I do not really see any new image(s) to which the obesity could be attributed.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Offline harmonic


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Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:38 am

Posts: 53

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hmmm...no apparent wide-screen prob's here , Zorba .

Do you think it could have something to do with a few members possibly indulging in FAR too many Easter Choc's these Holidays , perhaps ? ;) .. :)

While I'm here , and in all seriousness this time.... LOVE your posts (for a long time) . What an amazing contribution you have made here over the years ! co-) .. th-)
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Offline Napia5


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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

My screen is wide also. But only in guest mode. When I sign in, it is fine.
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Offline chami


Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:36 pm

Posts: 166

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Napia5 wrote:
My screen is wide also. But only in guest mode. When I sign in, it is fine.


Same for me, too!
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Is it better now? I've edited one of harmonic's posts, there was a long double row of ~~~~ that was stretching the margins. I don't really know why.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

MisterPink wrote:
What I'm saying is that when I Google "Jester site:perugiamurderfile.net" I come up with nothing. I'm not internet savvy enough to know why this is. But it doesn't seem to be a good thing for a site that is working to keep the truth about Meredith and what happened to her alive.


MisterPink is right. This website doesn't appear in Google searches. That should certainly be changed. I hope Michael will address it when he speaks.

MisterPink wrote:
It doesn't appear that Skep is going to let the .org archives be hosted here so any discussion of whether it's technically feasible is moot. It's unfortunate because in my view it belongs here. I just hope it remains accessible.


Could you please point out to us what they have at .org in their archives that we don't have here? Translations of legal documents? We have them here, too. I don't see anything valuable in their Media or Links subforums, or even In Their Own Words subforum (always click on the subforum's name to view individual threads.) Lots of old stuff from before the split.

As far as I know, there was a closed Media thread accessible only to .org forum members. Do you think it was a good policy? At least our subforums have always been open to everyone, members or not. Okay, we don't have a photo gallery here, but otherwise I can't agree with you that our archives are worse than .org's, and I'm planning on expanding them because now that the trial phase is over, I'll have more time for doing this kind of work.

No one coming to a website would want to wade through 7+ years worth of discussion to get some basic information about a murder case. Just my opinion.
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Offline Napia5


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi, G. Its still off just a bit in guest mode. About quarter-inch.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Napia5 wrote:
Hi, G. Its still off just a bit in guest mode. About quarter-inch.


Okay, thanks Napia5, I'm trying to figure our what is causing it.
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Offline penelope


Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:05 am

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
MisterPink wrote:
What I'm saying is that when I Google "Jester site:perugiamurderfile.net" I come up with nothing. I'm not internet savvy enough to know why this is. But it doesn't seem to be a good thing for a site that is working to keep the truth about Meredith and what happened to her alive.


MisterPink is right. This website doesn't appear in Google searches. That should certainly be changed. I hope Michael will address it when he speaks.

MisterPink wrote:
It doesn't appear that Skep is going to let the .org archives be hosted here so any discussion of whether it's technically feasible is moot. It's unfortunate because in my view it belongs here. I just hope it remains accessible.


Could you please point out to us what they have at .org in their archives that we don't have here? Translations of legal documents? We have them here, too. I don't see anything valuable in their Media or Links subforums, or even In Their Own Words subforum (always click on the subforum's name to view individual threads.) Lots of old stuff from before the split.

As far as I know, there was a closed Media thread accessible only to .org forum members. Do you think it was a good policy? At least our subforums have always been open to everyone, members or not. Okay, we don't have a photo gallery here, but otherwise I can't agree with you that our archives are worse than .org's, and I'm planning on expanding them because now that the trial phase is over, I'll have more time for doing this kind of work.

No one coming to a website would want to wade through 7+ years worth of discussion to get some basic information about a murder case. Just my opinion.


lol. You got that right.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi harmonic and welcome to the forum from me, too. :)

May I ask you what kind of text editor, if any, do you use to compose your posts? It seems that your posts are a bit more "densely packed" than those of the rest us. Could it be the cause of wide margins? Just trying to guess...

By the way, judging by the number of smilies you use, you are well on your way to becoming our very own "The 411". pp-( b-((
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

ericparoissien wrote:
Sorry, the settings on that video didn't allow everyone to watch, here is the new link:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2lt65 ... redith_fun


Thanks very much, Eric. I'm watching Bongiorno's interview right now. Sometimes her name is translated by Google or Bing as "Ms.Good Morning", "Ms. Bon Day", etc :)
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Offline DownInTexas


Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:49 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Rumpole wrote:
Don't recall seeing these reports mentioned here -

1) The Economist distorting all the facts of the case it possibly can:

Innocente The overdue acquittal of Amanda Knox exposes glaring flaws in Italy's justice system

2) CounterPunch, which is supposed to offer independent investigative journalism and usually offers interesting political analysis, has produced a story about the acquittal based on other articles among which the above-mentioned Economist piece and a couple of Peter Popham spin stories from the Independent:

An Industry of Misery The Amanda Knox Case


The Atlantic, another serious publication in my mind, has a long summary of the case for readers who may not be following closely, although they've visited the case after each major judicial decision, doesn't consider it a travesty that all charges against RS and AK were dropped, they call the whole case a travesty for everyone involved. The article concludes:

"But most tragically, the attention paid to Knox has detracted from the individual most deserving of it: Meredith Kercher. While Knox and Sollecito now have an opportunity to rebuild their lives, Kercher's grieving relatives are no closer to finding out what happened to their daughter on the last night of her life."

http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... ee/388952/
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

penelope wrote:
guermantes wrote:
No one coming to a website would want to wade through 7+ years worth of discussion to get some basic information about a murder case. Just my opinion.


lol. You got that right.


Oh thanks, penelope. There are many non-native speakers, including myself, on this board for whom .org was moving a bit too fast. We feel pretty good here. I like to think of .net as a condensed version of .org. As a non-native speaker, I'm never going to pretend to be able to compete in eloquence with natives. So, when we express an opinion, it should be appreciated more, rather than less, for this reason alone. I hope you have a good day.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

This piece in Menti Informatiche quotes Knox's interview she gave to an unnamed American journalist just before the Cassazione hearing. There's nothing new in what she said, so I'll skip doing a full translation, but here's an excerpt:

A few hours before the verdict Amanda had responded to requests from an American reporter. And that interview, recorded when she still did not know if she could prove that it was not her who killed her friend, now takes on a special flavor. Why, that's when Amanda was anything but serene.
...
Q: Would you return to Italy if you were found guilty?

A: No, I'm not going to go back anymore. I will fight until the end. The Italians will have to come and get me here. And I really hope that people try to understand that there was a relentless prosecutor, biased investigation, and coercive interrogation. This is what happened in the past and that I'm afraid will happen in Cassation. No, I'm not going back to Italy ...

Q: Is it true that you are pregnant?

A: Excuse me?

Q: [They] say that you are expecting a baby.

A: No comment. Even if it were true I would certainly not announce it.

Q: And it may be a good way to avoid extradition and ...

A: Look, meanwhile, let's see how this [appeal] process ends. .. You see, you take me for guilty even before the judges have decided. So it was from the beginning of this story.

Q: So you'll remain in Seattle. To live la dolce vita. To have a boyfriend, to work as a journalist, to go to pubs and meet with friends. And you wrote a book to take advantage of this story ...

A: Here too. These are all prejudices, all things untrue. I have a simple life, as all girls of my age. It is not a crime to have a boyfriend, want a family, try to do a job that I love. And the book only tells my story. It doesn't seem right that we can talk about [my] life being over the top. Indeed, compared to how I was before arriving in Perugia, I'm more easily spooked, even timid now. I live with a couple of cats ... and my house is hardly a Palace with a pool. My boyfriend lives nearby but we don't live together. It's anything but la dolce vita, I am a simple person.


MENTI INFORMATICHE
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Offline MisterPink


Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:27 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

DownInTexas wrote:
While Knox and Sollecito now have an opportunity to rebuild their lives, Kercher's grieving relatives are no closer to finding out what happened to their daughter on the last night of her life."

http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... ee/388952/


It's a high bottom from which to rebuild their lives, as multimillionaires not yet thirty.

Everyone who is not willfully blind knows what happened to Meredith.

The biggest tragedy, for all of us who are not wealthy or powerful, is that the justice system and the media are corrupted.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

zorba wrote:
Something seems to have wide-screened the site, though I do not really see any new image(s) to which the obesity could be attributed.


Hi Z, you have a new message in your PM box. ;)
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Offline dgfred


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:19 pm

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Welcome to the new ;) guys and gals.
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Offline harmonic


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Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:38 am

Posts: 53

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Hi harmonic and welcome to the forum from me, too. :)

May I ask you what kind of text editor, if any, do you use to compose your posts? It seems that your posts are a bit more "densely packed" than those of the rest us. Could it be the cause of wide margins? Just trying to guess...

By the way, judging by the number of smilies you use, you are well on your way to becoming our very own "The 411". pp-( b-((


Hi guermantes , and thanks .

No text editor here (though I am a rather 'mad editor' , as most of my posts here so far , go some way to attest !) :oops:
I just use the boxes provided here and tap away and then submit . co-)

I was thinking though , could it have something to do with my copy/pasting that rather lengthy post (my most recent 'mini-tome')
from .ORG that I brought over ?
Well , I hope it's not anyway . It would be good to get to the bottom of it , and I will watch this space for any future developments .

"..our very own 411" ?? Ahhh , I can use a few smilies , sure , but to try and approach anything close to the sheer humour and wonderful wit and wisdom of The411 for me would be an exceedingly difficult challenge .

I strongly believe ,,,,,,, there can be ONLY ONE THE411 !!!!! nin-) .. :) (and lets face it , we all know that 411 makes a sparkling addition both to any board and in Meredith's corner . So lets hope we may in the near future be graced with the actual personality we've come to know and love . I did hear also , from The Bard , the intention to continue dropping in here too !! ;)

Oh , ...the margins are looking just fine on-screen as always , for me at least .


Last edited by harmonic on Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Napia5


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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I hope the discussion board remains open until after the translation of the Motivation report. I truly want to understand how the decision was made. From this day until then, it matters little to me what direction the discussion takes.

BFQ, PDA, how to properly plant petunias. I'll listen. I'd just like to understand.
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Offline harmonic


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Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:38 am

Posts: 53

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hey Folks !! In relation to my post above ..(and this is kinda exciting....!!) Yay-)

Just dropped in to .ORG (well , that's not quite true...I'm 'camped out' there !! [but in absolute silence now] ) and read this new post by The Bard , to The411... :)
The Bard wrote:
411. What would the board have been without YOU!!! I do hope you drop into .net occasionally - I think I will, just to say hello to people and to inject some BFQ when I have bored all my friends and family to death with Poppy pictures! I don't know if they have BFQ on .net, but if they don't it is about time. A long honoured tradition. Do let me add you to the list of email addresses 411!

................................................. dm-) da-)) mul-) da-)) dm-) .....................................................


Last edited by harmonic on Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline corpusvile


Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:38 pm

Posts: 352

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

With the greatest possible respect, does it matter why they came to their decision, or to be more precise, how do the reasons for their decision, whatever they may be, nullify that the Italian judicial system appears to be flawed in the sense that Cassation- the supreme court final authority- can apparently overrule or annul its previous acceptance of a court's findings? IOW overrule itself?
Aren't Cassation judges supposed to be equal counterparts? If Cassation didn't annul Massei when they annulled Hellman, then they surely originally accepted his court's findings. How can five individual Cassation judges suddenly overrule or contradict the findings of other Cassation judges, as in counterparts from the same Cassation body? Aren't judges simply the functuionaries, ambassadors if you will for said body?

If the supreme court can overrule itself, then how does it justify itself as the valid authority for finalizing verdicts? Isn't this a broader issue in terms of validity of any conviction or indeed acquittal? If the authority appears to be flawed, then how can it justifiably be the final ultimate authority on establishing facts and judging people?

Or am I reading into this wrongly? Any thoughts would be appreciated, cheers.
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Offline Napia5


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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:23 pm

Posts: 1893

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

How will I ever learn the answers to your questions if discussion boards are closed? You're sorta making my point.
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Offline corpusvile


Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:38 pm

Posts: 352

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

This board isn't closed atm & we can discuss it now or whenever. This specific apparent flaw assuming my perception has merit would appear to be an inherent problem which would seem to cast doubt on the veracity of the Italian judiciary system as a whole
. This trancends individual cases as the same problem could present itself in other cases &ruin other future families. It's why I would appreciate any thoughts on the matter as this is a potentially very serious problem for the Italian system in general.
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