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XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yeah, but the Russian regime change artist AlexK thinks Hellman was a trial of the first instance (in all but name). Too bad he only read the google translate of the Supreme Court decision that struck it down for presuming to think so.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Latest, from Andrea Vogt:

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 50 minutes ago
More trouble for #amandaknox as Florence courts set March 20 prelim hearing on continuous aggravated calumny charges re: cop abuse claims.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:05 pm   Post subject: KELSEY KAY SPEAKS ABOUT RAFFAELE SOLLECITO   

Kelsey Kaypernick Interview Regarding Raffaele Sollecito

We’ve been following for many years how the friends of Amanda Knox had been encouraging Frank Sfarzo and Raffaele Sollecito to obtain green cards by any means necessary, in the mistaken belief it would somehow grant them immunity from criminal prosecution and extradition for their crimes. They certainly seemed to believe that, and it is especially ironic considering the recent news of Knox’s most recent “engagement”.

Just a year ago Radar Online broke the story of Kelsey Kaypernick, the young American woman who was pursued for a while by Raffaele Sollecito with offers of marriage. When this came out, she was attacked by the usual suspects, with harassment continuing until recently. Ironically, she was told NOT to speak to Ergon :)

I spoke to her then and offered a voice. That I was more interested in the human side. She was intrigued except she had to wait for her contractual obligation to end, then was affected by concerns for her safety. I held off on writing anything for that reason, but kept in touch with her for a year. Having spoken to her by phone and through e-mails, I found her very intelligent and believable. She contacted me recently, agreeing to do the interview. It is presented here, in its entirety.

E: How are you? Have you been able to put this behind you? Why have you agreed to speak with us now?

KK: “I'm doing great, thank you so much for asking. After doing much research and watching the chips fall where they may with Raffaele post my article with Radar I realized a lot. I was truly a small amount of collateral damage. I think it would be stupid of me to continue to be hurt by someone like him.

Especially when I'm equally responsible for allowing him into my life in the first place. I've agreed to speak to you now because I am no longer afraid. It took me some time to realize that all the threats being made towards me were unfounded. I'm a mother, so I had much more than myself to consider. However, by allowing those threats to control me, I was letting him win. I'm done with that now.”

E: Many of Raffaele and Amanda Knox’s supporters have questioned your motives, and posted personal information about your past. Do you have anything to say to them?

KK: “You know my name, not my story. Choose to fill in the blanks in whatever way is pleasing to you.”

E: Veronica Drake (in Australia) was told Raffaele Sollecito would be suing her. Have you ever been told legal action would be taken against you for speaking out?

KK: “Oh yes. Michelle Moore and Eve Applebaum made direct contact to threaten me. I also read threats made through his father and his lawyer. I had lots of contact with Noel Dalberth. She was mostly kind to me however.”

E: How did Michelle Moore and Eve Applebaum contact you and what threats did they make?

KK: “Eve emailed me directly, clearly she had gotten my personal email from Raffaele as I don't hand it out. I give out my work email only. Michelle tweeted at me and I suspect called me from a blocked number.”

E: What is your impression of Raffaele's relationship with Amanda Knox now?

KK: “What relationship? It seems non-existent to me.”

E: He did meet Amanda Knox in Seattle (in 2012). So, too, did his father and sister? Was it about their books only, for the publicity, or was their relationship soured already? Do you know why?

KK: “Sorry, I know nothing about that instance unfortunately.”

E: Have you ever met or spoken with a member of the Knox/Mellas family? Amanda Knox herself?

KK: “I suspect I have had a conversation with Chris Mellas. I say suspect because my attacker hid behind a fake twitter. I was not allowed to speak with Amanda. Raffaele must have had his reasoning.”

E: What ID was used on Twitter by the person you suspect is Chris Mellas? What specific threat? Embarrassment, your past history, or?

KK: “@guilterwatchin or something along those lines. He threatened me in every way he could think of. Intimidation tactics, petulance, foul language and threats via twitter came my way for a few days after the article was published until someone advised me to block him. I have to say though, of all the people who have attacked me I found @guilterwatchin laughable. I mean really? A twitter attack.”

E: Were you surprised when you heard the news Raffaele Sollecito had been picked up by police close to the Austrian border?

KK: “Not at all. After all I found out firsthand that his intentions were to flee Italy. This goes right back to your inquiry about people questioning my motives. I've read some entertaining tales. In some of them I'm 17. In some of them I'm already married. In some of them I'm a money hungry whore. In some of them I was fat before my plastic surgery that I clearly got. I just laugh. You want to know my motives?

Well... ask yourself a few questions and infer what you want from the answers. Did any other women come out that the same thing had happened to them? Is it possible other women were spared the same fate? Did he get his passport taken away? Was he able to leave Italy? Well, there you go. I've said what I wanted. People can draw their own conclusions on my motives.... as is their right.”

E: Do you know why Raffaele Sollecito didn’t attend Amanda Knox's big Vashon Island get together on July 26, 2013? Was he invited?

KK: “I have no knowledge of why. I do know that around that time their relationship had soured. He flew to Seattle when I called off the marriage and she refused to respond to his requests to see him. That's what he told me anyways. I was extremely irritated when the first thing he did when I was having doubts was to flee to where Amanda lived but he assured me they were not on good terms and that she had refused to see him and was doing him an injustice. He described her as selfish. It's actually comical to compare the relationship the media and their books paint that they have compared to what little I saw.

E: Have you read the available court documents and pro-guilt arguments, and if yes, when and where?”

KK: “I've read so many blogs on both sides I couldn't begin to start telling you all the sources.”

E: After meeting Raffaele do you feel he could have written the book or was it mostly written by his co-writer?

KK: “There is no way Raffaele mostly wrote that book. He spends too much of his time contradicting it in reality. He was coached and took a back seat. In my opinion.”

E: After all you've learned about Raffaele, do you still believe him to be innocent?”

KK: “I've come to know Raffaele as a wolf disguised as a sheep. A liar. A fraud. A master manipulator with powerful resources. So do I still think he's innocent? No. I wanted to believe he was. I no longer feel that way. I've been able to separate my emotions from common sense.”

E: After all you've learned about Amanda, do you still believe her to be innocent?

KK: “Again, No. But I didn't get to know her like I did Raffaele. All I know is that it seems both of their stories are quite contradictory. There can only be one truth. If I was fighting for my life and I hadn't committed the crime I was accused of I would remember everything like it had happened only a second ago. Neither of them seem to be on the same page. So therefore neither of them are believable to me.”

----

(Also posted on the True Justice site. Part II of this interview will be posted on Thursday)


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Offline tamale


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Can't wait til thurs...
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The Daily Mail has published another load of unflattering photos of Amanda Knox, taken on Valentine's Day that show Knox without an engagement ring.

Those of you interested in getting a closer look on Knox's unmanicured fingernails, click here.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:42 am   Post subject: Re: KELSEY KAY SPEAKS ABOUT RAFFAELE SOLLECITO   

Ergon wrote:
Kelsey Kaypernick Interview Regarding Raffaele Sollecito

We’ve been following for many years how the friends of Amanda Knox had been encouraging Frank Sfarzo and Raffaele Sollecito to obtain green cards by any means necessary, in the mistaken belief it would somehow grant them immunity from criminal prosecution and extradition for their crimes. They certainly seemed to believe that, and it is especially ironic considering the recent news of Knox’s most recent “engagement”.

Just a year ago Radar Online broke the story of Kelsey Kaypernick, the young American woman who was pursued for a while by Raffaele Sollecito with offers of marriage. When this came out, she was attacked by the usual suspects, with harassment continuing until recently. Ironically, she was told NOT to speak to Ergon :)

I spoke to her then and offered a voice. That I was more interested in the human side. She was intrigued except she had to wait for her contractual obligation to end, then was affected by concerns for her safety. I held off on writing anything for that reason, but kept in touch with her for a year. Having spoken to her by phone and through e-mails, I found her very intelligent and believable. She contacted me recently, agreeing to do the interview. It is presented here, in its entirety.

E: How are you? Have you been able to put this behind you? Why have you agreed to speak with us now?

KK: “I'm doing great, thank you so much for asking. After doing much research and watching the chips fall where they may with Raffaele post my article with Radar I realized a lot. I was truly a small amount of collateral damage. I think it would be stupid of me to continue to be hurt by someone like him.

Especially when I'm equally responsible for allowing him into my life in the first place. I've agreed to speak to you now because I am no longer afraid. It took me some time to realize that all the threats being made towards me were unfounded. I'm a mother, so I had much more than myself to consider. However, by allowing those threats to control me, I was letting him win. I'm done with that now.”

E: Many of Raffaele and Amanda Knox’s supporters have questioned your motives, and posted personal information about your past. Do you have anything to say to them?

KK: “You know my name, not my story. Choose to fill in the blanks in whatever way is pleasing to you.”

E: Veronica Drake (in Australia) was told Raffaele Sollecito would be suing her. Have you ever been told legal action would be taken against you for speaking out?

KK: “Oh yes. Michelle Moore and Eve Applebaum made direct contact to threaten me. I also read threats made through his father and his lawyer. I had lots of contact with Noel Dalberth. She was mostly kind to me however.”

E: How did Michelle Moore and Eve Applebaum contact you and what threats did they make?

KK: “Eve emailed me directly, clearly she had gotten my personal email from Raffaele as I don't hand it out. I give out my work email only. Michelle tweeted at me and I suspect called me from a blocked number.”

E: What is your impression of Raffaele's relationship with Amanda Knox now?

KK: “What relationship? It seems non-existent to me.”

E: He did meet Amanda Knox in Seattle (in 2012). So, too, did his father and sister? Was it about their books only, for the publicity, or was their relationship soured already? Do you know why?

KK: “Sorry, I know nothing about that instance unfortunately.”

E: Have you ever met or spoken with a member of the Knox/Mellas family? Amanda Knox herself?

KK: “I suspect I have had a conversation with Chris Mellas. I say suspect because my attacker hid behind a fake twitter. I was not allowed to speak with Amanda. Raffaele must have had his reasoning.”

E: What ID was used on Twitter by the person you suspect is Chris Mellas? What specific threat? Embarrassment, your past history, or?

KK: “@guilterwatchin or something along those lines. He threatened me in every way he could think of. Intimidation tactics, petulance, foul language and threats via twitter came my way for a few days after the article was published until someone advised me to block him. I have to say though, of all the people who have attacked me I found @guilterwatchin laughable. I mean really? A twitter attack.”

E: Were you surprised when you heard the news Raffaele Sollecito had been picked up by police close to the Austrian border?

KK: “Not at all. After all I found out firsthand that his intentions were to flee Italy. This goes right back to your inquiry about people questioning my motives. I've read some entertaining tales. In some of them I'm 17. In some of them I'm already married. In some of them I'm a money hungry whore. In some of them I was fat before my plastic surgery that I clearly got. I just laugh. You want to know my motives?

Well... ask yourself a few questions and infer what you want from the answers. Did any other women come out that the same thing had happened to them? Is it possible other women were spared the same fate? Did he get his passport taken away? Was he able to leave Italy? Well, there you go. I've said what I wanted. People can draw their own conclusions on my motives.... as is their right.”

E: Do you know why Raffaele Sollecito didn’t attend Amanda Knox's big Vashon Island get together on July 26, 2013? Was he invited?

KK: “I have no knowledge of why. I do know that around that time their relationship had soured. He flew to Seattle when I called off the marriage and she refused to respond to his requests to see him. That's what he told me anyways. I was extremely irritated when the first thing he did when I was having doubts was to flee to where Amanda lived but he assured me they were not on good terms and that she had refused to see him and was doing him an injustice. He described her as selfish. It's actually comical to compare the relationship the media and their books paint that they have compared to what little I saw.

E: Have you read the available court documents and pro-guilt arguments, and if yes, when and where?”

KK: “I've read so many blogs on both sides I couldn't begin to start telling you all the sources.”

E: After meeting Raffaele do you feel he could have written the book or was it mostly written by his co-writer?

KK: “There is no way Raffaele mostly wrote that book. He spends too much of his time contradicting it in reality. He was coached and took a back seat. In my opinion.”

E: After all you've learned about Raffaele, do you still believe him to be innocent?”

KK: “I've come to know Raffaele as a wolf disguised as a sheep. A liar. A fraud. A master manipulator with powerful resources. So do I still think he's innocent? No. I wanted to believe he was. I no longer feel that way. I've been able to separate my emotions from common sense.”

E: After all you've learned about Amanda, do you still believe her to be innocent?

KK: “Again, No. But I didn't get to know her like I did Raffaele. All I know is that it seems both of their stories are quite contradictory. There can only be one truth. If I was fighting for my life and I hadn't committed the crime I was accused of I would remember everything like it had happened only a second ago. Neither of them seem to be on the same page. So therefore neither of them are believable to me.”

----

(Also posted on the True Justice site. Part II of this interview will be posted on Thursday)


Thank you Ergon and Kelsey. This was a very interesting interview.

I really appreciate that Kelsey had the courage to share her personal experience concerning Raffaele Sollecito with the public. I have seen some of the verbal attacks and abuse she was subjected to on Twitter and Bruce Fischer's forum and in spite of the pressure they tried to put on her, she could not be muzzled or intimidated. Kelsey is a very brave and intelligent young woman.

I am looking forward to the second part.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:51 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Latest, from Andrea Vogt:

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 50 minutes ago
More trouble for #amandaknox as Florence courts set March 20 prelim hearing on continuous aggravated calumny charges re: cop abuse claims.


It seems the Italian courts will go all the way. This should give those Knox supporters on Bruce Fischer's forum who argue that Italy will not seek to extradite Knox some food for thought. Just sayin'.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Great interview, Ergon!

If anyone wants to go back to January 2014 and relive the whole Kelsey Kay saga, just follow this link:

http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?p=117693#p117693

;)
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:09 am   Post subject: Re: KELSEY KAY SPEAKS ABOUT RAFFAELE SOLLECITO   

Ergon wrote:
Kelsey Kaypernick Interview Regarding Raffaele Sollecito

...

KK: “I've come to know Raffaele as a wolf disguised as a sheep. A liar. A fraud. A master manipulator with powerful resources. So do I still think he's innocent? No. I wanted to believe he was. I no longer feel that way. I've been able to separate my emotions from common sense.”



High praise!


Kudos to Ergon for the report and to Ms. K. for having the courage to speak her mind.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Update: Feb 18

More Legal Trouble for Amanda Knox, as Florence Court Investigates Abuse Allegations
By Andrea Vogt

Quote:
Regarding side shows, I note that there is a new development with a preliminary hearing court date now set for 9:30 a.m. March 20 to weigh whether there is enough evidence to request Amanda Knox stand for another trial, this time on continuous aggravated calumny charges, for her continued allegations of police abuse and coercion, both on the stand and outside of court, in her memoir and in public appearances.
...
...many reputations have been damaged in the long and painful course of this divisive and high profile case, and this may an effort by Perugia and Florence authorities to set the record straight about the serious allegations of having been mistreated in Italy, by asking all parties to bring evidence and sworn testimony to the table in order to establish a transparent legal record on the matter. The preliminary hearing is set to be heard before Magistrate Anna Liguori in Florence.


THE FREELANCE DESK
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Great interview, Ergon!

If anyone wants to go back to January 2014 and relive the whole Kelsey Kay saga, just follow this link:

http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?p=117693#p117693

;)


Thank you Guermantes.

In view of the occasion I will add a link to an interview with Veronica Drake, a woman who also interchanged flirtatious messages with Raffaele Sollecito at the time he was trying to convince Amanda Knox and Kelsey Kay to enter a convenience marriage with him.

It seems some of the women may have supported him, generously donating to his defence fund, in part because they saw in him more than just a Facebook friend. Sollecito on the other hand only added to the confusion, pretending to have a genuine romantic interest in them because it suited him at that time.

There could be many more than just Kelsey Kay and Veronica Drake. I am sure not everyone feels confident enough to share their experience publicly out of fear to become a target for the likes of Michelle Moore and other crazies.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Part 4 of Raffaele Sollecito's Feb.5 Porta a Porta interview:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2h93bd_portaaporta-04_school

I tried to embed the video but this didn't seem to work. Michael, could you please do this for me?

th-)
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Okay, Michael, I've belatedly figured out how to embed the vid. Success! :)

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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Selene has written a brilliant article about Raffaele Sollecito for Digital Journal:

Op-Ed: "Liar, fraud": examining Amanda Knox co-killer Raffaele Sollecito

http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/crim ... z3S9ACIPlr

Please tweet and retweet. Thanks.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:25 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

For your perusal, I haven't studied it thoroughly, I did notice some mistakes, common ones, in wording that leads to added confusion, such as that about new trials, when there has been but one.

Extracted from: http://today.ku.edu/2015/01/28/law-prof ... g-problems

PDF: http://law.ku.edu/sites/law.ku.edu/file ... n-head.pdf

picture of a pumpkin
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Details: Thanks for the links and comment, zorba. I have deleted the paper and instead attached it as a pdf since we cannot publish whole papers or books without permission


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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Phone intercepts between Raffaele Sollecito and his father

I know these bits have been reported years ago and do not constitute the most important part of the case file or even the intercepts transcripts, but reading the conversations in context and in original form just has another impact then seeing only excerpts reported and summed up by a reporter.

Among the telephone intercepts I found a transcript from a conversation between Francesco Sollecito and Raffaele Sollecito from the 5th of November 2007. Francesco Sollecito rebukes his son for not kicking the habit of carrying around his combat knife. It seems common sense given the circumstances, but Raffaele protests. His father ends the conversation quickly without wanting to argue any further it seems.

I get a feeling of frustration on Francesco Sollecito's part and that he is used to trouble with his son.


Quote:
Original telephone intercept

Francesco: ok, va beh, va beh. Tutto bene per il resto?
Raffaele: sì, sì, tutto ok.
Francesco: oh, in questi giorni non andare girando col coltellino in tasca tu, eh.
Raffaele: perchè?
Francesco: perchè poco poco che te lo vedono quelli della polizia, eccetera, cominciano a romperti le palle.
Raffaele: ah.
Francesco: eh.
Raffaele: va beh, ma no, ma non m'hanno beccato fino a mo' che sono stato in questura tre giorni.
Francesco: e perchè non se ne sono accorti che ce l'avevi, ma quello non lo puoi portare in giro come fai tu, lo sai, legalmente parlando? Quindi in un casino come quello in cui disgraziatamente ti sei andato a trovare sarebbe preferibile che non ti vai a creare altri casini.
Raffaele: aspetta un attimo, pa'.
Francesco: eh?
Raffaele: aspetta un secondo. Pronto?
Francesco: pronto?
Raffaele: eh?
Francesco: hai capito? Hai sentito, per meglio dire?
Raffaele: sì, sì.
Francesco: a posto. Ci sentiamo stasera, ciao a papà.
Raffaele: ciao, ciao.



Quote:
English translation of telephone intercept

Francesco: Ok, good, good. Everything else all right?
Raffaele: Yes, yes. Everything is alright.
Francesco: Oh, don't go around these days with your pocket knife, eh.
Raffaele: Why?
Francis: Because little by little you see the police, etc., they are starting to be a pain in the arse.
Raffaele: Ah.
Francesco: Eh.
Raffaele: Ok, but no, but they didn't even catch me out [carrying the knife]. I have been at the police station for three days.
Francesco: And why didn't they notice that you had it? But you cannot carry it around everywhere, like you do. You know, legally. So in this mess in which you unfortunately find yourself in, it would be preferable that you do not create more trouble.
Raffaele: Wait a moment, dad.
Francesco: Eh?
Raffaele: Wait a second. ¿Hello?
Francis: Hello?
Raffaele: Eh?
Francesco: Do you understand? Or rather, did you hear?
Raphael: Yes, yes.
Francesco: All right. We will talk tonight. Bye.
Raffaele: Bye, bye.


This is only a cleaned up Google translation, but you get the gist. If someone fluent in Italian has time to proof read it, I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:06 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

zorba wrote:
For your perusal, I haven't studied it thoroughly, I did notice some mistakes, common ones, in wording that leads to added confusion, such as that about new trials, when there has been but one.

Extracted from: http://today.ku.edu/2015/01/28/law-prof ... g-problems

PDF: http://law.ku.edu/sites/law.ku.edu/file ... n-head.pdf



Hi Zorba!

Thank you for posting the link to this article. I don't know where I saw it, but I have read this article a few days ago.

I think ultimately this case will help educate the public about differences between various countries' legal systems - exactly what the Knox/Mellas clan tried to avoid.

Mud throwing will only get you that far, I guess.
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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Quote:
Francesco: And why didn't they notice that you had it? But you cannot carry it around everywhere, like you do. You know, legally. So in this mess in which you unfortunately find yourself in, it would be preferable that you do not create more trouble
.

"mess" is a rather troubling and dismissive way of describing a young girl's brutal murder.

Like "another fine mess you've got me into"? Only this time it's a murder. What was he really thinking? Well his concern about Raffaele and his knives makes that bleeding obvious.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

First reaction from Italy to the content of the State Department's cables released by Andrea Vogt and it is a criticism:

Giornale Del Umbria - Meredith e i retroscena. Amanda, ecco i cablogrammi dell’Ambasciata Usa.

Quote:
Meredith e i retroscena. Amanda, ecco i cablogrammi dell’Ambasciata Usa

Ambiguo rapporto dopo l’assoluzione: «Per noi il caso è chiuso». Come se Thorne non sapesse che in Italia c’è un terzo grado di giudizio. La giornalista americana
freelance Andrea Vogt ha chiesto e ottenuto dalla Segreteria di Stato Usa i cablogrammi inviati dall’Ambasciata Usa su Amanda, ma sono pieni di omissis. I nodi del passaporto e di due funzionari consolari

ARTICOLO | GIO, 19/02/2015 - 13:33 | DI GIUSEPPE CASTELLINI
Amanda Knox
«Ho fatto questa richiesta per documenti perché trovo importante non solo l’aspetto giudiziario di questo caso clamoroso internazionale, ma anche quello che succedeva dietro le quinte, sia in Italia (dove trovare i documenti è molto piu difficile) che nell’ambito politico e diplomatico del mio Paese. Questi sono documenti in più che ora sono disponibili al pubblico. Possono essere interpretati in vari modi, ma preferisco lasciare la dietrologia agli altri. Comunque secondo me, piu trasparenza c’è, meglio è». Così la brillante giornalista freelance Andrea Vogt (americana di Seattle, ma che opera a livello internazionale collaborando con prestigiosi mass-media e che ha seguito in modo approfondito, fin dall’inizio, il caso dell’uccisione della studentessa inglese Meredith Kercher, avvenuta a Perugia nella notte tra l’1 e il 2 novembre 2007) in esclusiva al Giornale dell’Umbria, dopo aver ottenuto dal Dipartimento di Stato degli Stati Uniti (in pratica il ministero degli Esteri) i cablogrammi inviati, durante la vicenda Meredith, dall’Ambasciata Usa in Italia allo stesso Dipartimento di Stato.
La Vogt parla non a caso di «dietrologie», che lascia alla libertà dei lettori dei cablogrammi. Perché ci sono dei punti che restano oscuri.
Il caso è chiuso. Il primo è certamente quel «Post considers this case closed» (vedere la penultima riga della copia del documento originale, pubblicata in pagina), ossia «l’Ambasciata considera chiuso questo caso». Il cablogramma, firmato dall’allora ambasciatore Usa David H. Thorne, è del 4 ottobre 2013. La sera precedente la Corte d’assise d’appello di Perugia, presieduta dal giudice Claudio Pratillo Hellmann, aveva assolto l’americana Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito dall’accusa di aver ucciso Meredith, in concorso con Rudy Guede (che sta scontando la condanna a 16 anni nel carcere di Viterbo), ribaltando clamorosamente la sentenza di primo grado, che aveva condannato Amanda a 26 anni e Raffaele a 25. Ma, a meno di non ipotizzare - sarebbe da non credere - che l’Ambasciata Usa non sappia che la giustizia italiana prevede tre gradi di giudizio, quel «il caso è chiuso» è un vero e proprio scivolone. Tanto che la Corte di Cassazione ha poi bocciato la sentenza della Corte di Assise di appello e disposto un nuovo giudizio di appello, che si è svolto a Firenze e che ha visto Amanda condannata a 28 anni e 6 mesi e Raffaele a 25 anni (la Cassazione si esprimerà il prossimo 25 marzo).
Forse per l’Ambasciata Usa un cittadino americano che esce dal carcere è un «caso chiuso», nel senso che, anche se poi condannato, non sconterà più la condanna in quanto non sarà estradato. Parole che, lette così, risultano non solo errate (il caso non era affatto «chiuso») ma inquietanti, perché potrebbero significare una cultura neo coloniale, in cui davanti ai delitti effettuati all’estero se l’imputato è cittadino Usa ha una giurisdizione particolare, ossia la sua vicenda si conclude quando esce dal carcere e non quando si conclude il processo. Chissà se le autorità Usa ragionano così anche per i cittadini italiani che commettono delitti negli States?
Il passaporto. L’ambasciatore Thorne informa la Segreteria di Stato, sempre nel cablogramma del 4 ottobre che, contrariamente a quanto riportato dalla stampa, Amanda Knox e i suoi familiari non andarono, la notte del 3 ottobre 2013, dopo la scarcerazione immediata disposta dalla sentenza di assoluzione, all’Ambasciata Usa a Roma per i servizi consolari. Eppure Amanda la mattina del 4 ottobre è partita in aereo con la sua famiglia diretta a Londra, e da qui negli Usa, con un regolare passaporto. Da dove era spuntato? Dove è stata davvero Amanda la notte del 3 ottobre?.
I funzionari consolari. L’Ambasciata Usa, nei cablogrammi, informa che Amanda fu regolarmente visitata in carcere ogni 6 settimane dai funzionari consolari, che le hanno portato libri. Finora si sapeva che le uniche due persone - lo hanno dichiarato pubblicamente più volte - che hanno visitato la Knox in carcere per portale libri erano Rocco Girlanda e Corrado Maria Daclon, presidente e direttore della Fondazione Italia-Usa, anche presenti con lei nell’auto che la ha portata fuori dal carcere perugino di Capanne. Dei due funzionari consolari addetti a portarle libri, nonostante l’attenzione dei media sulla vicenda e il costante “assedio” al carcere, nessuno ha mai avuto sentore. A meno che l’Ambasciata Usa non considerasse come funzionari consolari Girlanda e Daclon.
Gli omissis. C’è da rilevare, poi, che nei cablogrammi inviati dal Dipartimento di Stato ad Andrea Vogt e di cui il Giornale dell’Umbria ha preso attenta visione, ci sono tante pagine bianche. Degli omissis che, evidentemente, proteggono cose che al momento non si possono conoscere. Forse, per avere il quadro completo e fugare i dubbi, bisognerà attendere, se ci sarà, un altro Wikileaks.


Underlining and bold is mine.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:31 pm   Post subject: KELSEY KAY INTERVIEW ABOUT RAFFAELE SOLLECITO PART II   

Kelsey Kaypernick Interview Regarding Raffaele Sollecito II

(cont’d from Part I) post by Ergon Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:05 pm.

Kelsey Kay is the young American woman Raffaele Sollecito attempted to marry in 2013 in an effort to gain American citizenship.

As reported in Radar Online then newspapers around the world Sollecito first suggested to Amanda Knox that they should get married: Daily Mail

“'Raffaele told me that when he had been in Seattle in March, his lawyers and Amanda's lawyers had a meeting where he had proposed the idea of the two of them marrying,” she told Radar Online.

‘It would've been natural to the public that the two of them got married. Raffaele proposed the idea to Amanda and her lawyers so that he could obtain citizenship in the United States and stay’.

This was shot down by Amanda, which caused him to look elsewhere and how he selected Kelsey Kay. As already reported, he pushed a bit too hard and that made her question his motives. Having already been in a destructive relationship she realized he was using her and broke off the “engagement” even though he already had announced it to his family. This was when he approached other women, including Veronica Drake in Australia, and moved to the Dominican Republic to look it up and explore the chances of opening a business there.

He had already planned to move away from Italy, moving his assets first to Switzerland then to another offshore account. It appears he knew even before the 2013 Supreme Court hearing that the Hellmann decision would be annulled. What is especially interesting is that he went to visit Meredith Kercher’s grave near London just prior to that ruling, against the express wishes of her family. Did his guilty conscience drive him there?

As we come to the end of this long and contentious process we all need to remind ourselves why we got involved in this fight for justice for Meredith Kercher. So many reasons, so many stories that swept us all up in it. This is just one of them.

Interview continues:

E: The Sollecitos are blaming his co-writer Andrew Gumbel and Knox's American friends for the defamatory content in his book. Gumbel says he's only the ghost writer putting together what he was told. What do you know about him and Gumbel, and was part of the content provided by the Moores, Bruce Fischer's group, or Frank Sfarzo?

KK: “I don't know any of the details regarding how his book was composed besides that he received a lot of help with it. Despite all the American exposure he has had since 2007 his English is still pretty broken at times. He asked me how to word things he was trying to express while he was here so there had to be a great deal of help with the book. That's all I know on that. I'm sorry.”

E: He has hinted in recent interviews that Amanda Knox went out alone that night, in effect withdrawing her alibi. What did he say to you, and what do you think he means when he says "she (Knox) has things to explain"?

KK: “At the time I met Raffaele his relationship was just beginning to sour with Amanda. He was being strongly advised to cut ties with her but he hadn't convinced himself this was the right move yet. He did NOT mention her leaving that night without him. He did however mention footprints to my friend Shelly and I over Skype. He said something along the lines of they've found new evidence with the footprints.

He gave the impression that it would be damning for both him and Amanda. He was very bothered on that day by whatever it was they found and this was before it was broken to the media. He didn't elaborate. Just said that the prosecution was trying to twist the evidence with the footprints in a way that wasn't accurate. He was fidgety and nervous during the Skype call.”

E: He wrote in Honor Bound that his lawyer Luca Maori had a meeting with prosecutor Giuliano Mignini to discuss a possible plea bargain, which is illegal under Italian law. What can you tell us about that? And did he make any other allegations about prosecutor Mignini?

KK: “He told me that many times he was offered to be let out or have his sentence lessened if he would throw Amanda under the bus. He actually seemed to think himself quite the hero for not doing so. Ironic how now that he is faced with the gravity of the current situation he has distanced himself. He always has two personalities. The personal puppy dog like Raffaele his PR wants you to see and the Raffaele that operates out of fear and selfishness with no regard for how his actions will affect others. I really don't have much to offer in the way of Mignini that isn't already known to the public. His family is convinced he is a mad man and a criminal himself.”

E: As you know, Raffaele Sollecito's appeal will be heard March 25, 2015. Do you have anything to say to him?

KK: “I'll save my breath for someone worth my while”.

E: You've indicated you moved on. What have you learned from this episode of your life, and is there anything else you would like to say?

KK: “What I've learned... I could really go into extensive detail here. I'll try to cut it down.

1. I am a mother first, foremost, and primarily. No one and nothing comes in between that. I would never do anything so stupid again. I have more to consider than myself.

2. Looks can be deceiving. I thought Raffaele was a victim. It turns out he was really just a pretentious jerk and a mass manipulator. I've spent more time getting to know people on a more personal level since.

3. I have learned more about the empowerment of women. I really enjoyed getting to know Veronica, another one of Raffaele's victims. We confided in one another quite a bit. I have never met someone quite as self-deprecating as her. She was so unaware of her beauty and how wonderful she truly is. I hope she's past that. She's an amazing woman. Raffaele doesn't deserve to leave a mark on her confidence.

The only thing left to say is the most important thing of all. I want justice for Meredith Kercher. The true victim in all of this. She's the one who really matters. The rest of us are just footnotes in a tragic story that needs to come to a close. I wish her family peace and the truth. That's all.”

E: Thank you.


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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jape wrote:
Quote:
Francesco: And why didn't they notice that you had it? But you cannot carry it around everywhere, like you do. You know, legally. So in this mess in which you unfortunately find yourself in, it would be preferable that you do not create more trouble
.

"mess" is a rather troubling and dismissive way of describing a young girl's brutal murder.

Like "another fine mess you've got me into"? Only this time it's a murder. What was he really thinking? Well his concern about Raffaele and his knives makes that bleeding obvious.


Yes, I agree. It sounds like Meredith's brutal murder was just an annoying and inconvenient nuisance to them.

If we assume innocence, where are the conversations expressing worry over what happened to Meredith or speculating who could be the attacker? They don't discuss it because they already know. Nothing is revealed by these phone taps that one would assume a person without a clue about what happened would actually discuss in such a situation.

Instead, there are interceptions revealing how upsetting it is for the Sollecitos to learn that a tv show already leaked "material" that they apparently promised exclusively to someone else. Oh boy.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Rumpole from .org linked to an ABC News Special Report with Diane Sawyer and Elisabeth Vargas from the day of the Hellmann verdict.

As Rumpole points out in his comment, Diane Sawyer mentions at minute 4:32 and Elisabeth Vargas at minute 5:03 that Knox's family have been busy packing her things the week prior to the verdict and sent her stuff back to the U.S. It begs the question how they could be so sure she would be acquitted before the verdict?

Also, pay attention to the special sound effects at minute 6:50 where people can be heard cheering when in fact we know they yelled "shame" and "murderer". How is that for good and ethical reporting? We know from other videos that have not been "enhanced" the only few claps in the courtroom were from Knox's family and they were immediately reminded by the judge to stay quiet.

This might have worked out in 2011, but now it's 2015 and everyone knows they cheated! It's embarrassing.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
First reaction from Italy to the content of the State Department's cables released by Andrea Vogt and it is a criticism:

Giornale Dell Umbria - Meredith e i retroscena. Amanda, ecco i cablogrammi dell’Ambasciata Usa.

Meredith e i retroscena. Amanda, ecco i cablogrammi dell’Ambasciata Usa


Thank you Nell. Here's a cleaned up Google translation:
-------------------------------------------------------------

Meredith and “retroscena” ["backstage", "backdrop", i.e., what has gone on behind the scenes].
Amanda, here are the U.S. Embassy’s ‘cablogrammi’ [cables]

Ambiguous report after an acquittal: "For us, the case is closed." As if Thorne [the U.S. Ambassador to Italy – ed.] did not know that in Italy there is a third instance [decision]. An American freelance journalist, Andrea Vogt, requested and obtained, from the Secretary of State [or State Dept.], cables sent by the U.S. Embassy in regards to Amanda Knox, but [they] are full of omissions. Passport tangle and two consular officers.

ARTICLE | Thu, 19/02/2015 - 13:33 | GIUSEPPE CASTELLINI

"I made this request for documents because I find important not only the judicial aspect of this internationally sensational case, but also what was happening behind the scenes, both in Italy (where to find/request documents is much more difficult) and in political and diplomatic circles of my country. These are the documents that are now available a little bit more to the public. They can be interpreted in various ways, but I prefer to leave the conspiracy [theories] to others. However, in my opinion, the more transparency there is the better." Said the brilliant freelance journalist Andrea Vogt (an American from Seattle, but who operates internationally by collaborating with leading media [outlets] and who followed in depth, from the beginning, the case of the murder of British student Meredith Kercher, which took place in Perugia on the night between 1 and 2 November 2007) exclusively to Il Giornale dell’Umbria, after having obtained from the U.S. Department of State (in practice, the Foreign Ministry) the cables sent during the Meredith case [trials] from the U.S. Embassy in Italy to the same Department of State. Vogt doesn’t speak of a case of "conspiracy", which leaves the freedom to decide to readers of these cables. Because there are points that remain obscure.

The case is closed. The first [point] is certainly the 'Post considers this case closed' (see the penultimate line of the copy of the original document, published on this page), namely "the Embassy considers this case closed." The cable, signed by the then-US Ambassador David H.Thorne, is dated October 4, 2013 (sic) [wrong year, should be 2011 - G.]. The night before, the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Perugia, presided over by Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellmann, had acquitted the American Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito of the charge of murdering Meredith, in conspiracy with Rudy Guede (who is serving a 16-year sentence in prison in Viterbo), blatantly reversing the judgment of first instance, that had sentenced Amanda to 26 years and Raffaele to 25. But, unless we assume – which would be unbelievable - that the U.S. Embassy [officials] don’t know that the Italian justice system has three levels of courts, "the case is closed" is a real slip. So much so that the Supreme Court had also rejected the ruling of the Court of Assizes of Appeal and ordered a new appeal, which was held in Florence and saw Amanda sentenced to 28 years and 6 months and Raffaele to 25 years (the Supreme Court will decide/vote on March 25).

Perhaps for the U.S. Embassy a U.S. citizen who leaves prison is a "case closed" in the sense that, even if convicted, he/she will serve no more time because he/she will not be extradited. Words that, written this way, are not only incorrect (the case was not "closed") but disturbing, because they could mean a neo-colonial culture, where, if, accused of a crime abroad, the accused is a U.S. citizen, he has a particular jurisdiction.* Specifically, that is, his affair ends when he comes out of prison and not when the process ends. I wonder if the U.S. authorities reason like that even for the Italian citizens who commit crimes in the States?

Passport. Ambassador Thorne informs the State Department in the cable of October 4 that, contrary to press reports, Amanda Knox and her family did not go on the night of October 3, 2013 (sic) [2011], after her immediate release ordered by the Court after her acquittal, to the U.S. Embassy in Rome for consular services. Yet, on the morning of October 4, Amanda started on a plane bound for London with her family, and from there to the U.S., with a regular passport? Where did it pop out? Where was Amanda really the night of October 3?

Consular officers. The U.S. Embassy, in cables, informs that Amanda was regularly visited in prison every six weeks by consular officers, who brought her books. Until now it was known that the only two people – who have publicly stated it several times - who visited Knox in prison and brought her books were Rocco Girlanda and Corrado Maria Daclon, president and director of the Italy-USA Foundation, also present with her in the car that brought her out of Capanne prison in Perugia. Of the two consular officers who allegedly brought her books, despite the media attention on the issue and the constant "siege" of prison, no one ever got wind, unless the U.S. Embassy considered Girlanda and Daclon to be consular officers.

Deletions. It is to be noted, then, that in the cables sent by the State Department to Andrea Vogt and which Il Giornale dell’Umbria has read carefully, there are many blanks and omissions that evidently protect things that cannot be revealed at this time. Perhaps, to get the full picture and dispel all doubts, we have to wait until there is another Wikileaks.

GIORNALE DELL'UMBRIA

---------------------------
*jurisdiction - the official power to make legal decisions and judgments
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thank you so much for the translation Guermantes!
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Selene has posted her article about Raffaele Sollecito on her website:

http://selenenelson.co.uk/liar-fraud-ma ... sollecito/
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

A quick look at Amanda's blog today and there is something different, all comments of congratulation on her engagement are gone!! Can this mean what I think it might why else remove 10 or more gushing posts?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Curious indeed, malvern. Past history would indicate it was a publicity stunt-though it's a pity Curt Knox had to confirm the engagement-now he looks the fool if it is so. Quite a few people, on the other hand, think she's pregnant. nah :)
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The BBC's Duncan Kennedy is a great journalist and his tweet is definitely worth retweeting:

"Er, not my views, guv @kenned10 There are no valid legal grounds for the U.S. Department of State to refuse to extradite Amanda Knox"

https://twitter.com/kenned10/status/569220170717249536
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Can someone decipher this blurb from "The Free Rudy Guede Action Committee" on Amanda Knox's blog?

Quote:
Despite your apparent belief the break-in was staged, I am still inclined to believe that it was re-entry – your return at 23:00 having interrupted negotiations with Kokomani and Lombardi regards moving the body. If only for the glass shard that got lodged in Khiri’s sole (although that would be possible with a staging also). A North African was observed rushing into a laudromat to wash Nike’s, which Raffaele (presumably under the instruction of that egotistical fathead Francesco Sollecito, as he was in prison and clueless) was to write in his prison diary was you and Juve (my, my what a tangled web of backstabbing intrigue).


Someone removed all the engagement congratulations but allowed this attack on Raffaele Sollecito's father? Hmm.
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Offline PK777


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi all. Thanks for providing this discussion board. This image was posted by an Innocenter who suggested the car park users were startled by a sound coming from the direction of the cottage. I would be interested in anyone's thoughts on this.

Image

Also if there is anyone who is knowledgeable of phone records I would value their opinion of the 10:13pm log on to a tower that would not usually be logged onto from inside the cottage. Some posters claim detectives had to be in the cottage grounds in order to log on to the same cell tower as the 10:13 log on.

I am an involvementer.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:16 pm   Post subject: RS's Knife: Prank Prop or Protection During Drug Buy or ...?   

PK777 wrote:
Attachment:
cctv-perugia.jpg


Hi all. Thanks for providing this discussion board. This image was posted by an Innocenter who suggested the car park users were startled by a sound coming from the direction of the cottage. I would be interested in anyone's thoughts on this.

Also if there is anyone who is knowledgeable of phone records I would value their opinion of the 10:13pm log on to a tower that would not usually be logged onto from inside the cottage. Some posters claim detectives had to be in the cottage grounds in order to log on to the same cell tower as the 10:13 log on.

I am an involvementer.


Those photos, the CCTV image of what COULD well be Knox heading into/through the garage from the cottage (with RS's knife for protection, and perhaps MK's rent money, to buy drugs from RG?), RS's latest media appearances (leaving AK without an alibi when she desperately needs one), along with Nencini's judgment, have got me moving away from the theory I used to favor (UW-style prank, using knife and RG as props, runs amok under the influence of drugs) to the theory I now favor (argument over doped up male stranger(s) in the cottage and/or missing rent money gets physical and runs amok under the influence of drugs).

It's easy to believe that those pedestrians were hearing shouts and/or screams from an argument/ physical altercation that was spiraling out of control.

Do photos of pedestrians from that camera at other times of day, and on other days, show the same degree of (apparent) rubber necking at the cottage?


Last edited by Jackie on Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hello PK777,

thank you for the CCTV images.

I had to reduce the size of the picture to fit the forum width. It was stretching the forum margins and making it hard to read.

Cheers,
G.
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Offline PK777


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Hello PK777,

thank you for the CCTV images.

I had to reduce the size of the picture to fit the forum width. It was stretching the forum margins and making it hard to read.

Cheers,
G.


Thanks for sorting
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Offline PK777


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:01 pm   Post subject: Re: RS's Knife: Prank Prop or Protection During Drug Buy or ...?   

Jackie wrote:

Those photos, the CCTV image of what COULD well be Knox heading into/through the garage from the cottage (with RS's knife for protection, and perhaps MK's rent money, to buy drugs from RG?), RS's latest media appearances (leaving AK without an alibi when she desperately needs one), along with Nencini's judgment, have got me moving away from the theory I used to favor (UW-style prank, using knife and RG as props, runs amok under the influence of drugs) to the theory I now favor (argument over doped up male stranger(s) in the cottage and/or missing rent money gets physical and runs amok under the influence of drugs).

It's easy to believe that those pedestrians were hearing shouts and/or screams from an argument/ physical altercation that was spiraling out of control.

Do photos of pedestrians from that camera at other times of day, and on other days, show the same degree of (apparent) rubber necking at the cottage?


Hi Jackie. Thanks for response. Those car park users could be reacting to an animal or an alarm type sound but they do seem to be 'stopped in their tracks' They look like a variety of ages etc but all reacting similarly. Yes good to compare with other photos. Although the cctv clock is not a definite time it supplies a pretty tight window. The timing seems to fit with MKs mobile leaving the cottage at 22:13 but I would need another opinion on that tower connection.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yet NO ONE came forward afterwards so we shall never know. Still could be that one person looking back reacting to noises from the cottage. The others are looking to the side. Well within time frame of TOD though.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:04 am   Post subject: Waiver: A Sliver of Hope for Knox at the ECtHR?   

There are 3 Knox groupies who like to cite ECtHR judgments, which is great, because angloclown can't (it's almost as funny as his shocking ignorance of everything from the right to silence to double jeopardy).

Unfortunately, however, those 3 groupies don't understand what they're reading (e.g., citing cases about applicants who were under ARREST as if they can be applied to Knox at a time when she was NOT under arrest), and simply cannot (or will not) examine BOTH sides of the issues in question (their version of the fact pattern bears little relation to the evidence actually adduced in court - they simply refuse to contemplate anything that contradicts FOA dogma).

So, they all get a D - except for "Kauffer", he gets a C (and goes to the head of the JLOL class) because he cited ZAICHENKO v. RUSSIA, which seems to give Knox a sliver of hope re the issue of waiver. Sadly, however, I can't give him more than a C because he cited the case on a different issue (right to counsel/ test for custody/ test for suspicion, not waiver) and the case itself actually stands for the opposite of the proposition he was advancing.

(See my post here for details on this particular point: http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewto ... ko#p180194 )


Now, about ZAICHENKO v. RUSSIA:

A company has employees who are stealing fuel from company vehicles. The company asks the local cops to do spot checks on the employees as they leave work.

An employee is stopped, the police see 2 canisters of fuel in his car and ask him where he got it. He ADMITS he took the gas from a company vehicle and subsequently signs his name to a statement to this effect, and waives his right to counsel, repeatedly, and in writing.

What does the ECtHR do with this?

Despite noting that the "applicant voluntarily and unequivocally agreed to sign the act of accusation and waived his right to legal assistance", the ECtHR considered that "being in a rather stressful situation and given the relatively quick sequence of the events, it was unlikely that the applicant could reasonably appreciate without a proper notice the consequences of his being questioned in proceedings which then formed basis for his prosecution for a criminal offence...".

Accordingly the ECtHR went on to assess whether the use of his incriminating statements was "fair having regard to:

1) whether "the rights of defense" were "respected";
2) whether D had opportunity to "challeng[e] the authenticity of the evidence";
3) Whether the D had opportunity to "oppos[e]...[ the] use" of the evidence; &
4) the "quality of the evidence" (whether it was obtained in circumstances that "cast doubt on its reliability or accuracy").

What followed seems a rather amazingly naive effort by the ECtHR to bend over backwards for an applicant that might very well have cooked up one of the WORST ex post excuses I've ever read, which can be paraphrased thusly:

'I admitted to committing the crime of stealing fuel from my employer because I had no idea why the scary police man stopped me and, at the time, I didn't have a receipt for the gas in those canisters in my car but, as 'luck' would have it, ~20 days later my wife 'found' a receipt for gas, and she and my best friend will swear on a stack of bibles that the fuel in those canisters came from the fill up related to that receipt.'

Incredibly, the ECtHR appeared to buy that (?!), finding it "regrettable" that the national court in question did not provide "sufficient" reasons for dismissing that (hard to swallow) "argument", and noting that the rest of the evidence, apart from the voluntary confession, was characterized by "weakness" (despite expressly stating in the preceding sentence that "it is not the {ECtHR's] role to examine whether the evidence in the present case was correctly assessed by the national courts" !!! LOL Then why are they examining it in terms of its strength and assessing it as 'weak'?!).

And how, exactly, is this "weak" evidence of fuel theft:

1) company complains of employees stealing fuel from its service vehicles;
2) employee leaving company yard has 2 canisters of fuel in his car;
3) employee ADMITS, orally AND in WRITING, that he took the fuel from a company vehicle (!); &
4) employee's friend is in car and confirms: a) he witnessed no police brutality, & b) he witnessed his friend's incriminating admission to police?

What more do they want?! A HD VIDEO?! Civilized society will fall into a state of nature if the prosecution of criminals is limited to cases where the actus reus is recorded in HD video AND accompanied by a voluntary confession over coffee and friendly chitchat about the weather.

Furthermore, if a routine traffic stop is to be PRESUMED so inherently "stressful" that, despite no evidence of police brutality or misconduct, it casts doubt on the reliability and accuracy of incriminating statements, how then are the police to investigate and prevent crime?! Limiting them to a friendly "Top o' the mornin' to ya!" is not likely to elicit ANY useful information from criminals and witnesses!

I'm starting to see now why there are jurists in the UK with grave reservations about the competence of ECtHR judges (some of whom, apparently, are, as noted previouly, completely unaware of the notion of precedents/ the principle of stare decisis!!!)

Still, if the ECtHR is willing to strain THAT hard to let a sentient adult back out of an incriminating statement because: a) a traffic stop is overwhelmingly stressful; and b) his wife and best friend are able to offer WEAK evidence in his defense (2 biased witnesses and a paper receipt for a fill up that may or may not pertain to the fuel in question), Knox may have a chance of winning a couple thousand Euro and a piece of paper for her PR people to crow about.

After all, unlike Zaichenko, Knox did NOT, so far as I am aware, literally SIGN a waiver of her right to counsel when (if you believe Follain) she insisted on making and signing incriminating statements despite being advised of her right to counsel at least twice, first by Napoleoni and then by Mignini.


Last edited by Jackie on Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Yet NO ONE came forward afterwards so we shall never know. Still could be that one person looking back reacting to noises from the cottage. The others are looking to the side. Well within time frame of TOD though.


I could swear I once saw a post, somewhere (JLOL?), of stills from that camera that were taken at a different time...

That would help to establish whether it was unusual to see pedestrians looking back toward the cottage as they crossed before the camera...
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Offline Underhill


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jackie wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Yet NO ONE came forward afterwards so we shall never know. Still could be that one person looking back reacting to noises from the cottage. The others are looking to the side. Well within time frame of TOD though.


I could swear I once saw a post, somewhere (JLOL?), of stills from that camera that were taken at a different time...

That would help to establish whether it was unusual to see pedestrians looking back toward the cottage as they crossed before the camera...


Presumably whoever published those half dozen stills must have the complete footage from the camera. It would be helpful if they could make it available in its entirety: we would happily host at the TMOMK wiki, for instance. Then everyone could judge for themselves the significance of those stills, in relation to the rest of the footage. Also, the quality of those images looks better than the published images that might or might not be Amanda Knox. Again, if the person who has the complete CCTV evidence made it publicly available, it might settle, once and for all, whether the pictures could be of Knox.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Today's news, a bit off-topic: an Italian lawyer tries to explain the Italian justice system to his American colleagues

February 22, 2015

Michele Vaira, the only Italian lawyer at the American meeting on forensic science

The lawyer from Foggia, Michele Vaira, participated in the 65th Meeting of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences in Orlando, Florida, of which he is a permanent member, the only Italian member. The Academy, which has about three thousand members from over 30 countries, brings together leading experts in forensic science, in the disciplines of forensic medicine, forensic archeology, forensic criminology, engineering, genetics, law. By his division, Vaira, for the third consecutive year, was chosen as a lead speaker, and explained, in a comparative perspective with the United States, the discipline of the technical non-repeatable assessments in the Italian system. "It is always gratifying to represent, from an Italian perspective, my profession in a context, such as in the prestigious Academy setting. - says the lawyer from Foggia - While last year, in Seattle (city of Amanda Knox and her place of residence) I had to try to explain the trial of the young American and Raffaele Sollecito, on which American colleagues showed more than a few (justified) concerns – for, for them, there are inconceivable levels of jurisdiction after acquittal - this year I could proudly "boast" a procedural Italian tool - unknown in the US - that offers special guarantees to a suspect during the investigative stage. A topic that has had much effect on American judges in the audience, which in the USA are the real "living law".


IMMEDIATO
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

This is from the "Studio Legale Vaira" (Law Firm Vaira) website:

Lawyer Michele Vaira in Washington at the 2013 AAFS Meeting - Report on the Amanda Knox Case

Quote:
The Lawyer. Michele Vaira, February 18 to 23, 2013, was away in Washington, DC to attend an annual meeting of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences (AAFS), of which he is a permanent member.

Along with Gen. Luciano Garofano, he presented a paper entitled: "The Amanda Knox case: scientific investigation and criminal trial in Italy", speaking before an audience of lawyers, judges and scientists (especially Americans) on a matter of great relevance and interest.

An abstract was published in the prestigious 2013 AAFS Proceedings.

The lawyer Michele Vaira told the Gazzetta del Mezzogiorno:

"It was a great honor (and a great responsibility) to represent my country and, above all, to speak of our judicial system. I had no difficulty in affirming that the Italian judicial system, compared to the US, has many more guarantees, thanks to the absence of juries consisting entirely of popular jurors and the obligation to explain reasons for the measures [ i.e., to write a sentencing report.]

Unfortunately, in the conclusions of my work, I had to realize and admit that, in terms of accreditation and choice of scientific advisors/experts, we are light years away from American realities.”


STUDIO LEGALE VAIRA

ETA: The Proceedings of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences are available on the AAFS website here:
http://www.aafs.org/resources/proceedings

2014 AAFS Annual Meeting/Seattle, WA /Volume20
2013 AAFS Annual Meeting/Washington, DC /Volume19
...
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Offline PK777


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Underhill wrote:
Jackie wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Yet NO ONE came forward afterwards so we shall never know. Still could be that one person looking back reacting to noises from the cottage. The others are looking to the side. Well within time frame of TOD though.


I could swear I once saw a post, somewhere (JLOL?), of stills from that camera that were taken at a different time...

That would help to establish whether it was unusual to see pedestrians looking back toward the cottage as they crossed before the camera...


Presumably whoever published those half dozen stills must have the complete footage from the camera. It would be helpful if they could make it available in its entirety: we would happily host at the TMOMK wiki, for instance. Then everyone could judge for themselves the significance of those stills, in relation to the rest of the footage. Also, the quality of those images looks better than the published images that might or might not be Amanda Knox. Again, if the person who has the complete CCTV evidence made it publicly available, it might settle, once and for all, whether the pictures could be of Knox.


Hi. I will try and get you more info on source of this photo but to obtain more pix may entail someone here talking to an innocenter
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Offline elisa


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

PK777 wrote:
Hi all. Thanks for providing this discussion board. This image was posted by an Innocenter who suggested the car park users were startled by a sound coming from the direction of the cottage. I would be interested in anyone's thoughts on this.

Image

Also if there is anyone who is knowledgeable of phone records I would value their opinion of the 10:13pm log on to a tower that would not usually be logged onto from inside the cottage. Some posters claim detectives had to be in the cottage grounds in order to log on to the same cell tower as the 10:13 log on.

I am an involvementer.



Hi, tnx for the pics. I think the people are looking if any car is coming and if, so they have to go more on the site and one after each other, no getting into a danger. One can look in any publick garage, how people w th-) alking on the same line where the cars drive, act the same.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:09 pm   Post subject: CCTV IMAGES   

Re the CCTV images, has no one seen PostalePDF

I thought people knew that those images were released by the Sollecito defense during the trial? Then they released the blurry Amanda photos to the Italian media? Being clever and all, they thought that would obscure the source.. Then the Knoxii photo shopped Raffaele wearing Mickey Mouse costume? Amateur hour all around.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:42 am   Post subject: EXTRADITION   

Being looking into for a while :) AHEM

Quote:
An extradition warrant is prima-facie evidence that a person is a fugitive from justice [ix]. Generally, bail is not available after a warrant is issued. The Uniform Criminal Extradition Act does not provide for bail after an extradition warrant is issued. However, the Uniform Extradition and Rendition Act provides for conditional release on bail of an accused after the issuance of an extradition warrant[x]. A person released on bail shall be available for hearing even after release on bail. A bail can be granted in a case where delay occurs in an extradition hearing.


So if there are no delays, it might be sooner, than later
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:58 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon,

you have a good memory: have we heard about this Italian lawyer, Michele Vaira, before, in connection with the Amanda Knox case and AK & RS trials?

I don't recall having ever seen his name on any of our boards, do you?

By the way, someone should point out a little mistake to Prof John W Head, in his research paper "Criminal Procedure in Transition..." : wrong spelling of the Italian word "popolari" (as in "giudici popolari" - "popular (lay) judges", or "people's judges".) It's not just a typo on his part it seems; he consistently uses "popolcari" instead of "popolari" throughout his paper (for example, at the end of p.14, or at the top of p.16). Non-native speaker slip-ups I guess. ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:51 am   Post subject: LA FAMIGLIA?   

Only saw him at the AAFS link with Gen.Garofano, guermantes. Doesn't seem to be on the Sollecito legal team. But here's his website. http://www.studiolegalevaira.it/ and here he is, defending an accused Mafiosi from Bari :)



Text: Il Sig. Ivan La Fratta è stato accusato dalla DDA di Bari di omicidio volontario aggravato dal metodo mafioso. Per questa ha accusa ha sofferto oltre quattro anni di custodia cautelare in carcere.
La difesa ha sostenuto l'alibi dell'imputato, che al momento dei fatti si trovava a Rimini.
L'Avv. Michele Vaira, nella sua arringa, ha ricostruito nei dettagli l'iter processuale, smontando ogni elemento di accusa e offrendo prove inconfutabili della sua innocenza.
Al termine del processo, il sig. La Fratta è stato assolto con formula piena per non aver commesso il fatto.

Google translation: Mr Ivan La Fratta was accused by the DDA in Bari of aggravated murder by the mafia method. This accused has suffered more than four years of pre-trial detention.
The defense argued the alibi of the accused, who at the material time was in Rimini.

The Lawyer. Michele Vaira, in his speech, has reconstructed in detail the process of the case, removing any element of the prosecution and providing irrefutable evidence of his innocence.
At the end of the process, Mr. La Fratta was acquitted for not having committed the crime.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ok, thanks Ergon. I have found this on his blog, in the category "Amanda Knox"

(scroll down for some pictures and embedded newspaper articles):

http://www.studiolegalevaira.it/blognews/blognews.php?categories=Amanda%20Knox
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:46 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Quiet a charming Innocentsi he defended, guermantes, http://www.newsetvlucera.it/notizia6251.htm but no, not Knox :)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Extract from study by John Head



Conclusion

I find it inappropriate to criticize the conduct of the Amanda Knox trial, and Italian
criminal procedure more generally, from an uninformed perspective – that is, without
understanding the larger context surrounding this particular trial and Italy’s criminal procedure in general.

In the preceding pages I have tried to summarize that larger context, emphasizing
(i) the historical background to Italy’s system of criminal procedure
and
(ii) the particular difficulties that Italy has experienced in incorporating ‘accusatorial-adversarial’ elements into a traditional inquisitorial system.

My overall conclusions about the subject of this essay on ‘Legal Transplantation and the
Amanda Knox Trial’ can be distilled into two main points.

First, the criticisms offered by many observers regarding the Amanda Knox prosecution – particularly as illustrated by Senator Cantwell’s statements – are not persuasive, at least insofar as they allege defects in (i) the impartiality of the jurors and (ii) the protections afforded to the accused.

Likewise, the more general proposition that Italy’s criminal justice system fails to observe adequate standards of due process seems unfounded and unpersuasive.

Second, there remains in the system of Italian criminal procedure a cluster of strong
tensions that reflect the challenges associated with any sort of legal transplantation. This is to be expected. As I have discussed elsewhere, the US legal system (and, before that, the legal systems in the British American colonies) went through considerable trauma in the process of ‘legal transplantation’ from England.

64 Whether the tensions in Italy’s system of criminal procedure had any significant impact on the prosecution of Amanda Knox is a matter of speculation; it is not, in my view, supported by any evidence – and certainly not by uninformed criticism.

Indeed, when viewed with some objectivity and in its overall context, the Italian system of criminal procedure includes a range of features that I believe most reasonable and informed people would consider appropriately fashioned to produce proper results in most cases, thereby striking a reasonable balance between (to use Feridun Yenisey’s phrase again) ‘the rights of the accused and the duties of the State to combat crime.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

zorba wrote:
Extract from study by John Head

Conclusion

I find it inappropriate to criticize the conduct of the Amanda Knox trial, and Italian
criminal procedure more generally, from an uninformed perspective – that is, without
understanding the larger context surrounding this particular trial and Italy’s criminal procedure in general.


Maybe someone could email these conclusions to Sen. Maria Cantwell? ;)

By the way, only 1 month until the final judgment by the Italian Supreme Court.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

If anyone wants to watch the Linea Gialla episode from a year ago (25 Feb 2014),

I'm embedding the 5 videos below. Many thanks to Eric Paroissien of .org for subtitling and making

these videos available to everyone.

Old reviews of the show can be found here: viewtopic.php?p=119461#p119461

Linea Gialla_01

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Linea Gialla_02

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Linea Gialla_03



Hmmm, video No. 4 has been deleted for some reason. :(
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Linea Gialla_05

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
zorba wrote:
Extract from study by John Head

Conclusion

I find it inappropriate to criticize the conduct of the Amanda Knox trial, and Italian
criminal procedure more generally, from an uninformed perspective – that is, without
understanding the larger context surrounding this particular trial and Italy’s criminal procedure in general.


Maybe someone could email these conclusions to Sen. Maria Cantwell? ;)

By the way, only 1 month until the final judgment by the Italian Supreme Court.



Yes, I like the way he reasons, especially these couple of bits:


First, the criticisms offered by many observers regarding the Amanda Knox prosecution – particularly as illustrated by Senator Cantwell’s statements are not persuasive, at least insofar as they allege defects in (i) the impartiality of the jurors and (ii) the protections afforded to the accused.

Likewise, the more general proposition that Italy’s criminal justice system fails to observe adequate standards of due process seems unfounded and unpersuasive.

Whether the tensions in Italy’s system of criminal procedure had any significant impact on the prosecution of Amanda Knox is a matter of speculation; it is not, in my view, supported by any evidence – and certainly not by uninformed criticism.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Here is Part 4 of the Linea Gialla:

Linea Gialla_04

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nell wrote:
Rumpole from .org linked to an ABC News Special Report with Diane Sawyer and Elisabeth Vargas from the day of the Hellmann verdict.

As Rumpole points out in his comment, Diane Sawyer mentions at minute 4:32 and Elisabeth Vargas at minute 5:03 that Knox's family have been busy packing her things the week prior to the verdict and sent her stuff back to the U.S. It begs the question how they could be so sure she would be acquitted before the verdict?

Also, pay attention to the special sound effects at minute 6:50 where people can be heard cheering when in fact we know they yelled "shame" and "murderer". How is that for good and ethical reporting? We know from other videos that have not been "enhanced" the only few claps in the courtroom were from Knox's family and they were immediately reminded by the judge to stay quiet.

This might have worked out in 2011, but now it's 2015 and everyone knows they cheated! It's embarrassing.


Total bleep liars. And at 10 something did he say Mignini was shouted down by the crowd?

Pathetic.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:12 pm   Post subject: RE: KELSEY KAYPERNICK   

Further to my Kelsey Kaypernick interviews the 'orrible Bruce Fischer had Selene Wilson's quotes about the interview pulled from Digital Journal, crowing "Digital Journal did not view Ergon as a credible source."

Ahem. Someone should remind El Bruce that it was an interview with an original source, and what that means? Digital Journal, which has no problem publishing Brucie's articles quoting "Luca Cheli" and secondary sources first published in Ground Report :) stands revealed as a strictly amateur effort all the way. Especially since Kelsey Kaypernick herself confirmed she'd granted me the interview and that I'd quoted her accurately.

More sour grapes from Fischer to follow.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:39 pm   Post subject: MORE FOA ATTACKS ON KELSEY KAYPERNICK ET AL   

Re: Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011

Post by MichaelB » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:18 am

Quote:
Ergon is a dangerous predator. He grooms these women. First was the volcano lady in Hawaii who's been stalking the guy who wrote the blog about the case (what's his name?), then the love struck female fan in Australia and now the psycho girl who met Raffaele for 2 days in 2013 and thinks she's famous.


Sorry, "Michael Charles Becker". Aside from the fact you and your group should be the last people to ever call someone a "dangerous predator" the reason for your hate on is I listened to these women who were abused by Francesco Sforza, Raffaele Sollecito, Bruce Fischer and co. and gave them a voice on these sites.

27 days left to the hearing in Cassazione.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:03 pm   Post subject: VERY CLUELESS FOA   

The very clueless FOA, still referring to Paul Ciolino's bombastic "investigation" of Nara Capezzali today https://twitter.com/Noel_0409/status/570711316404400128

"It's a matter of life and death, Signora!", as he bangs on her doors in the wee hours.

He's a bit busy right now, being sued $40 million for threatening a witness and railroading an innocent man for 15 years in prison.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:20 pm   Post subject: GN Rutty (no DNA) & BR Mull (no 3° DNA transfer)   

Now that there's less than a month to go, I just want to say that, whatever happens, I want the court to get it right, and for the right reasons - and the same goes for me, personally: I want to be right not by chance but because I've analyzed the information correctly. (I've seen far too many people, on both sides of the debate, with completely unacceptable "reasoning": 'she's innocent because she's pretty'/ 'she's guilty because I can see the evil in her eyes'.)

So, I've been thinking I should compile a list of the points I just can't get around and, if I am in error, maybe someone, somewhere can set me straight before the fat lady sings. I'll do 2 points for tonight.

1) I'll start with a common refrain among the Groupies: 'If there's no DNA from AK in the "murder room", she's innocent.'

There are a lot of studies out there showing that people often leave no DNA on objects they touch, but I was quite interested when I found this particular study because it involved not just a gentle handling of objects but rough and tumble simulations of bare-fingered strangulation:

Rutty GN. "An investigation into the transference and survivability of human DNA following simulated manual strangulation with consideration of the problem of third party contamination." Int. J. Legal Med. (2002) 116: 170-173

Despite the violence of the simulated struggles, the male "perps" only left their DNA behind in ~ 7 of the 29 strangulations.

Imagine how much less likely you would be to leave DNA behind if, instead of strangling someone with your bare hands, you had someone else (say, Guede) hold the victim still for you while you jabbed a knife in their throat and then ran away.

So much for the absence of DNA - simply put: it's not necessarily 'evidence of absence'.

---------------------------------------------------------------

2) Now, as important as studies of that kind are to understanding the case, I think Dr. Mull's contribution has been the most important. He opened my eyes to the truly surprising proposition that never, not even once, in the history of genetic research, has anyone proven that tertiary transfer of touch DNA occurs:

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewto ... ry#p120317

At first I was skeptical, but I've been unable to find, nor have I seen anyone, including The Halk, cite ANY studies published in a well-regarded, peer-reviewed science journal proving that touch DNA can undergo 3 transfers such that your full profile can wind up on an object you've never personally touched.

The Halk came up with an unpublished paper written by a student, and a rich Harvard doctor on trial for the murder of his wife managed to pay a private lab to cook up something which, evidently: (a) did not sway the jury (he was convicted); (b) has never been replicated; and (c) does not meet the standards for publication in a peer-reviewed science journal, but that's it!

And this is REMARKABLE!!! Without scientific proof that RS's touch DNA can undergo 3 transfers (from his hand to the door to a CSI glove to the bra clasp), RS has no innocent explanation for the presence of his autosomal alleles at all 16 loci tested for on that clasp.

That's the case. Right there.

Now, I remain open to the possibility that 3° transfer of touch DNA might one day be proven to occur but, in the meantime, If you can't make it happen in a lab, deliberately, with perfect transfer surfaces, you can't then reasonably claim it happens in the field easily and accidentally with less than perfect transfer surfaces!

IMHO, until tertiary transfer of touch DNA (at all 16 loci) can be proven in an experiment that: a) meets the standards for publication in a peer-reviewed journal; & b) can be replicated by independent labs; then juries should simply not be hearing a word about it for, as noted by the SCOTUS, a doubt is not reasonable if it is based on "mere possibility...bare imagination, or... fanciful conjecture" rather than EVIDENCE. Indeed, in the hands of a jury of scientifically-illiterate dullards like Screechy, it can result in the worst kind of travesty*.


* e.g. the (wrongful, IMHO) acquittal of 'hitwoman' Kelly Soo Park in the LA murder of Julianna Redding (despite the complete lack of scientific proof noted by Dr. Mull, not to mention GN Rutty's study, Park's defense used (unproven/hypothetical/imaginary) tertiary transfer of touch DNA to explain away the presence of Park's DNA inside the home, and on the neck, of a strangled victim she 'never met')

The LA County DA's Office needs you as a consultant, Dr. Mull!
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:30 pm   Post subject: Re: RE: KELSEY KAYPERNICK   

Ergon wrote:
Further to my Kelsey Kaypernick interviews the 'orrible Bruce Fischer had Selene Wilson's quotes about the interview pulled from Digital Journal, crowing "Digital Journal did not view Ergon as a credible source."

Ahem. Someone should remind El Bruce that it was an interview with an original source, and what that means? Digital Journal, which has no problem publishing Brucie's articles quoting "Luca Cheli" and secondary sources first published in Ground Report :) stands revealed as a strictly amateur effort all the way. Especially since Kelsey Kaypernick herself confirmed she'd granted me the interview and that I'd quoted her accurately.

More sour grapes from Fischer to follow.


It's amazing that the Digital Journal views a furrier and 2 biochemists/ internet posters with no formal training and experience in the field of forensic genetics as "credible sources".

Where have TomZ and The Halk published their "findings" under their legal names?!

Stefanoni should give serious consideration to suing the Digital Journal for defamation because, IIRC, it is a Canadian enterprise and Canada is nearly as plaintiff-friendly as the UK.

Has anyone ever approached Stefanoni with the Digitial Journal hit piece, the name of a good Bay St. lawyer and an offer of free temporary lodging in Toronto?
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I think it is a bit of a hobby for some to come up with the most incredible contamination theories. Tertiary DNA transfer vs primary DNA transfer. Which one might be more probable? Eehh..tertiary because he is innocent..lol.. Back in the real world.

Quote:
This Court considers that speaking of the contamination of exhibits in a generalized way and allowing for abstract possibilities, as was several times repeated by the Defense and by the court-appointed experts, Prof. Carla Vecchiotti and Prof. Stefano Conti, even in their written conclusions [points 4) and 5) of the conclusions of the technical report, signed by them, and quoted several times], has absolutely no meaning in the context of a criminal trial, and is objectively deceptive.

Ouch.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yes, missing brmull and other friends as this case winds down to a close.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:14 am   Post subject: Tertiary transfer of T O U C H DNA   

max wrote:
I think it is a bit of a hobby for some to come up with the most incredible contamination theories. Tertiary DNA transfer vs primary DNA transfer. Which one might be more probable? Eehh..tertiary because he is innocent..lol.. Back in the real world.

Quote:
This Court considers that speaking of the contamination of exhibits in a generalized way and allowing for abstract possibilities, as was several times repeated by the Defense and by the court-appointed experts, Prof. Carla Vecchiotti and Prof. Stefano Conti, even in their written conclusions [points 4) and 5) of the conclusions of the technical report, signed by them, and quoted several times], has absolutely no meaning in the context of a criminal trial, and is objectively deceptive.

Ouch.


"Objectively deceptive"...

That's how I would describe many of the JLOL's devotees of C & V as well, Max.

After they read my post from last night:
Hidden Content: show
I've been thinking I should compile a list of the points I just can't get around and, if I am in error, maybe someone, somewhere can set me straight before the fat lady sings. I'll do 2 points for tonight.

1) I'll start with a common refrain among the Groupies: 'If there's no DNA from AK in the "murder room", she's innocent.'
There are a lot of studies out there showing that people often leave no DNA on objects they touch, but I was quite interested when I found this particular study because it involved not just a gentle handling of objects but rough and tumble simulations of bare-fingered strangulation:

Rutty GN. "An investigation into the transference and survivability of human DNA following simulated manual strangulation with consideration of the problem of third party contamination." Int. J. Legal Med. (2002) 116: 170-173

Despite the violence of the simulated struggles, the male "perps" only left their DNA behind in ~ 7 of the 29 strangulations.

Imagine how much less likely you would be to leave DNA behind if, instead of strangling someone with your bare hands, you had someone else (say, Guede) hold the victim still for you while you jabbed a knife in their throat and then ran away.

So much for the absence of DNA - simply put: it's not necessarily 'evidence of absence'.

---------------------------------------------------------------

2) Now, as important as studies of that kind are to understanding the case, I think Dr. Mull's contribution has been the most important. He opened my eyes to the truly surprising proposition that never, not even once, in the history of genetic research, has anyone proven that tertiary transfer of touch DNA occurs:

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewto ... ry#p120317

At first I was skeptical, but I've been unable to find, nor have I seen anyone, including The Halk, cite ANY studies published in a well-regarded, peer-reviewed science journal proving that touch DNA can undergo 3 transfers such that your full profile can wind up on an object you've never personally touched.

The Halk came up with an unpublished paper written by a student, and a rich Harvard doctor on trial for the murder of his wife managed to pay a private lab to cook up something which, evidently: (a) did not sway the jury (he was convicted); (b) has never been replicated; and (c) does not meet the standards for publication in a peer-reviewed science journal, but that's it!

And this is REMARKABLE!!! Without scientific proof that RS's touch DNA can undergo 3 transfers (from his hand to the door to a CSI glove to the bra clasp), RS has no innocent explanation for the presence of his autosomal alleles at all 16 loci tested for on that clasp.

That's the case. Right there.

Now, I remain open to the possibility that 3° transfer of touch DNA might one day be proven to occur but, in the meantime, If you can't make it happen in a lab, deliberately, with perfect transfer surfaces, you can't then reasonably claim it happens in the field easily and accidentally with less than perfect transfer surfaces!

IMHO, until tertiary transfer of touch DNA (at all 16 loci) can be proven in an experiment that: a) meets the standards for publication in a peer-reviewed journal; & b) can be replicated by independent labs; then juries should simply not be hearing a word about it for, as noted by the SCOTUS, a doubt is not reasonable if it is based on "mere possibility...bare imagination, or... fanciful conjecture" rather than EVIDENCE. Indeed, in the hands of a jury of scientifically-illiterate dullards like Screechy, it can result in the worst kind of travesty*.


* e.g. the (wrongful, IMHO) acquittal of 'hitwoman' Kelly Soo Park in the LA murder of Julianna Redding (despite the complete lack of scientific proof noted by Dr. Mull, not to mention GN Rutty's study, Park's defense used the (unproven/hypothetical/ imaginary) tertiary transfer of touch DNA to explain away the presence of Park's DNA inside the home, and on the neck, of a strangled victim she 'never met')

The LA County DA's Office needs you as a consultant, Dr. Mull!



I got this response: The Halk says he's "baffled", Del Cletus is claiming I've "misquoted" and/or "mischaracterized" the sources, and the little mouse, Planigale, says the study I cited actually "PROVIDES EVIDENCE OF TERTIARY TRANSFER":
Hidden Content: show
Image


Let's break that down.

Sadly, it seems that, in addition to not understanding the difference between the results section (data/facts) and the discussion section (opinions) of a scientific paper, Planigale also suffers from a reading comprehension problem.

She fails to comprehend the implications of the words "likely", "could" and "may"!

For example, where Rutty is simply attempting to offer an explanation for the presence of PARTIAL profiles from an unknown 3rd party (neither the 'perp" nor the 'victim'), he is merely opining as to a "likely" source for the partial profile that "may" / "could" have undergone secondary or, in theory, tertiary transfer.

Indeed, Rutty expressly hedges his bet by offering his opinion this way: "secondary/ tertiary transfer".

He chooses this hybrid phrase, replete with a slash, precisely because HE DOES NOT KNOW whether it was secondary transfer or (theoretical) tertiary transfer or both.

He is guessing.

His experiment simply was not designed to establish whether it was one or the other!

Further, even if we assume arguendo that it was (as yet unproven/ hypothetical/imaginary) tertiary transfer of touch DNA from a 3rd party, the profile was only PARTIAL!

Again, I need proof that a COMPLETE - NOT PARTIAL - PROFILE (autosomal alleles at all 16 loci tested) can undergo TERTIARY transfer.

And I need it to be TOUCH DNA (from epithelial cells), not DNA from SALIVA or BLOOD!

So, spare me your studies about SECONDARY transfer. And spare me your studies about DNA from blood and saliva.

Or are you going to contend that RS was BLEEDING in the cottage shortly after a KNIFE attack transpired there?! LOL

Once again, my little mouse, the words you need to grasp before you go back to MEDLINE in an effort to sink Dr. Mull while saving RS are:

1) TOUCH
2) TERTIARY
3) COMPLETE (NOT PARTIAL) PROFILES


Last edited by Jackie on Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Clearly said Jackie! Waiting to hear the response on JLOL, will it be complete or partial?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:55 pm   Post subject: DNA VS GILL   

BTW, Jackie, Professor Peter Gill torpedoes himself, repeatedly, in his book "Misleading DNA Evidence-Reasons for Miscarriages of Justice", referring to 'passive' or 'secondary' transfer as mechanisms by which Meredith Kercher's DNA might have ended up on the murder knife and Raffaele Sollecito's on the bra clasp. "Shoe boxes" and "latex gloves" are mentioned, but not tertiary transfer.

I feel sorry for a person of such stature, but anyone who was so misled by Vinci and Vecchiotti, without verifying his sources or reading the Supreme Court Report annulling Hellmann, deserves what ever.

Re the bra clasp:
Quote:
Once again, the assessment of the strength of the evidence is at sub-source level and deliberately ignores the method of transfer (p. 140)


One might say the same about him and the Conti-Vecchiotti report.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:05 am   Post subject: THE 'ORRIBLE BRUCE FISCHER   

The ‘orrible Bruce Fischer really needs to er, stop stinging himself. He and his followers complain to every fora he can to delete articles and comments, coordinates campaigns to out people and suspend from Twitter, and set up dummy websites, then when caught, says:

Quote:
Ergon lies again.

I didn't say a word to Digital Journal about Selene's article. Selene posted the reason for the article's removal on Twitter. Ergon just makes it up as he goes.


OK, if he says so :)
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:09 am   Post subject: The mouse that roared?   

malvern wrote:
Clearly said Jackie! Waiting to hear the response on JLOL, will it be complete or partial?


Why, thank you, Malvern, but it seems that little Planigale is not so mousy after all!

She has replied by citing a new study:

Hidden Content: show
Image


To be fair to Dr. Mull, his comments were made in 2012 and, to be fair to myself, I started typing this reply in February - the paper was submitted for review as recently as Sept 10, 2014, has only been available online since Oct 13, 2014, and will be appearing in the MARCH issue of Legal Medicine:

Mariya Goray, Roland A.H. van Oorschot "The complexities of DNA transfer during a social setting" Legal Medicine 17 (2015) 82-91

This paper really complicates the matter for me.

It demonstrates tertiary transfer of touch DNA where the substrates were drinking glasses, a juice jug (which may or may not have been made of glass), a table top and chair armrests.

As such, IMHO, it lends much-needed reinforcement to defense arguments that turn on passive transfer of "touch" DNA.

That said, it doesn't necessarily decide the matter in RS's favor:

1) to control for DNA from saliva, the experimenters did a 6th run where they tested for saliva only (rather than touch DNA) and assumed that, if no saliva was found in the 6th run, there was no saliva in the first 5 runs of the experiment - indeed, as noted by the experimenters, in the 2nd run, Participant 1 coughed, and this cough (captured on video) appears to have deposited DNA-containing saliva on the hands of the subject, but it could not be confirmed because "saliva tests for this [particular] experiment were not performed." Video analysis will catch coughs and sneezes, but it is not likely to capture every instance where spittle may have flown from the lips of a speaker duirng the "chat", and it simply cannot catch instances where an invisible trace of DNA-containing saliva, mucous, blood, or other bodily fluid on a participant's hands, clothing, iphone, etc., may have been the source for the DNA rather than epithelial cells;

2) Given that the experiment had subjects drinking juice from glasses, which entails putting lips and, therefore, possibly DNA-containing saliva, on the glasses and, possibly, the thumbs/fingers of participants, it may have been better to design a "chat" centered around an activity other than drinking liquids from glasses (although the 6th run/ saliva test may address this problem sufficiently);

3) Nothing is stated about the selection of participants for the study: Did they have any chance for contact with one another before the experiment? Did they spend time in the same rooms, buildings, etc., before the experiment? (If so, some of the 'tertiary transfers' may have actually been primary or secondary transfers.)

4) This study involved substrates (drinking glasses, a juice jug, a table top, armrests on chairs) that are perfectly suited to DNA transfer (smooth, hard, nonporous surfaces). How would the results change if, instead of glass, etc., the substrates were a less than perfectly smooth wooden door, a towel, a piece of clothing, a CSI bootie, etc.?

5) Even if saliva (or other watery/liquid mediums) can be ruled out, instances of tertiary transfer were occurring in the minority of samples from a given substrate (roughly speaking, in less than a third of the samples), supporting the notion that it is not fair to say such transfers are 'more likely than not' - even with an essentially ideal substrate for transfer, like glass;

6) Although there now appears to be a material chance that RS's "touch" DNA may have been passively transferred to the bra clasp, this chance must be evaluated in light of "all the other evidence" (lies to police, multiple alibis, inconsistent alibis, cell tower pings, phone records, computer logs, eyewitnesses, the luminol hit in the hallway and the dimensions of the bloody foot print/ track on the bathmat, the absence of his DNA in the 16 samples taken from his own car, etc.); &

7) The authors quote Campod in their discussion:

‘‘. . .experience constitutes a poor substitute to a systematic and structured acquisition of data. Any scientist offering views as to his/her expectations for the forensic findings under given case-related circumstances should be able to put forward documented set of controlled experiments whose relevancy to the case under dispute can be argued’’

I concur and have to ask: Why, with the millions spent on this defense, hasn't one of these so-called 'scientists' performed a controlled experiment in support of the assertion that RS's DNA went from a towel or the bedroom door to a CSI to the clasp? Pick a theory, use the same substrates and prove it!

Alas, the matter is now really quite complicated, IMHO: Rutty's results (a strangler only leaves his DNA behind in 7 out of 29 attacks) illustrates how 'absence of DNA' is NOT NECESSARILY 'evidence of absence'; while G & O's results illustrate how 'presence of DNA' is NOT NECESSARILY 'evidence of presence'.

So, where does that leave us?

Once we're having to weigh MULTIPLE pieces of evidence, each of which is 'INDICATIVE OF/ CONSISTENT WITH' X, BUT 'NOT NECESSARILY' PROOF of X, we're having to rely on cognitive skills tested for by the Law School Admission Test (LSAT) and, as a result, people like Bill Williams will need to quietly step aside if we're to have an intelligent discussion.

Which reminds me, I'd really appreciate it if the Idiotic ("What's a loci? [sic]) Lying Liar ("Nencini writes at page 243...") of ISF would take a nice, big, long break - you've made your faith-based, scientifically-illiterate, truth-challenged, xenophobic position clear, about 6,000 times over, and your mindless repetition is just cluttering the ISF board and making it a pain to suss out the (few and far between) intelligent posts from the ****wittery you daily dispense. Thanks in advance.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:58 am   Post subject: GILL VS DNA   

They are still full of it, Jackie. Still speculating, that since Sollecito's fingerprints were found on Meredith's door that is how it was transferred from a technicians' latex glove to her bra clasp. Can't teach stupid people. Can't 'win' with them either.

But 'DNA expert' professor Peter Gill? He won't even defend his own book anywhere, and that's very sad.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:33 am   Post subject: Re: GILL VS DNA   

Ergon wrote:
They are still full of it, Jackie. Still speculating, that since Sollecito's fingerprints were found on Meredith's door that is how it was transferred from a technicians' latex glove to her bra clasp. Can't teach stupid people. Can't 'win' with them either.

But 'DNA expert' professor Peter Gill? He won't even defend his own book anywhere, and that's very sad.


The BBC interview Gill did is a curious thing - was he to blame for the BS about the knife being placed in a calendar box posted to Meredith?

He should explain that AND his method of gathering information - did he bother to speak with Stefanoni, tour the lab in question, etc., or was Vecchiotti his only source of information?

As for tertiary transfer of RS's "touch" DNA from the bedroom door to the clasp, on what basis are the defense contending that the police were diligent enough to dust the door for prints but stupid enough to touch it before entering the "murder room" to retrieve items therein for DNA testing?

I see no reason to PRESUME Italians are incompetent (I've driven a Ferrari F430 and it was SUBLIME).
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:23 am   Post subject: Re: GILL VS DNA   

Jackie wrote:
Ergon wrote:
They are still full of it, Jackie. Still speculating, that since Sollecito's fingerprints were found on Meredith's door that is how it was transferred from a technicians' latex glove to her bra clasp. Can't teach stupid people. Can't 'win' with them either.

But 'DNA expert' professor Peter Gill? He won't even defend his own book anywhere, and that's very sad.


The BBC interview Gill did is a curious thing - was he to blame for the BS about the knife being placed in a calendar box posted to Meredith?

He should explain that AND his method of gathering information - did he bother to speak with Stefanoni, tour the lab in question, etc., or was Vecchiotti his only source of information?

As for tertiary transfer of RS's "touch" DNA from the bedroom door to the clasp, on what basis are the defense contending that the police were diligent enough to dust the door for prints but stupid enough to touch it before entering the "murder room" to retrieve items therein for DNA testing?

I see no reason to PRESUME Italians are incompetent (I've driven a Ferrari F430 and it was SUBLIME).


The BBC reporter published it was a shoe box belonging to Meredith in Radio 4 magazine then had to retract when The Machine corrected her, Jackie.

Gill on the other hand wrote in his book p.154 that it was packaged in a "shoe box" and it is not known what was previously contained in it so he's still responsible and clearly the reporter was quoting him.

We can guess from his acknowledgments this information was given to him at a meeting held in Rome with Sollecito's expert, Vinci. Odd, but I see no reference to a shoe box in the C & V Report, so looks he put himself out on that limb.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:51 am   Post subject: Re: GILL VS DNA   

Ergon wrote:
...
The BBC reporter published it was a shoe box belonging to Meredith in Radio 4 magazine then had to retract when The Machine corrected her, Jackie.

Gill on the other hand wrote in his book p.154 that it was packaged in a "shoe box" and it is not known what was previously contained in it so he's still responsible and clearly the reporter was quoting him.

We can guess from his acknowledgments this information was given to him at a meeting held in Rome with Sollecito's expert, Vinci. Odd, but I see no reference to a shoe box in the C & V Report, so looks he put himself out on that limb.


Woah! Stop traffic!

Wake the kids, call the neighbors!

Are you kidding me, Ergon?!

A "SHOE BOX"?! And it's "NOT KNOWN" what it contained previously?!

He WROTE that in his BOOK?!

Is it not the case that it was a cardboard box that had contained a bank calendar sent to the office of a cop from his bank?

What reasonable explanation could there possibly be for MK's DNA to be inside that box BEFORE the knife was placed inside it?!

Is Gill going to tell us MK worked at the calendar company, the bank, the post office or the local police station?!

Perugia isn't NYC, but it's not a 1 horse town either! FFS.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:45 pm   Post subject: THE DNA 'GOD' GILL   

Indeed, Jackie. Gill misled the BBC with the shoebox nonsense.

On the report planigale dug up for the ISF, it in no way proves the possibility of tertiary transfer, but I'd wait for the full article to comment. I'll look up the links I accumulated over the years for my DNA article re this case, but the presence of junk/partial/random DNA in most environments is accepted by researchers. It is a given that LCN DNA testing also can generate create additional profiles, but unless that can be matched to an individual in a database, it isn't probative. I don't even see where in in the report it says complete profiles were obtained?
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:28 am   Post subject: Re: THE DNA 'GOD' GILL   

Ergon wrote:
Indeed, Jackie. Gill misled the BBC with the shoebox nonsense.

On the report planigale dug up for the ISF, it in no way proves the possibility of tertiary transfer, but I'd wait for the full article to comment. I'll look up the links I accumulated over the years for my DNA article re this case, but the presence of junk/partial/random DNA in most environments is accepted by researchers. It is a given that LCN DNA testing also can generate create additional profiles, but unless that can be matched to an individual in a database, it isn't probative. I don't even see where in in the report it says complete profiles were obtained?



Hi Ergon - I've got online access to the new Goray & van Oorschot study and spent some time last week time reading it with care. I, too, wish the authors had expressly stated the number of loci at which a match was discovered in each instance; whether they took any measures to ensure that the subjects had not come into contact with one another before the study, or spent time in the same rooms, buildings, elevators, etc., prior to the experiments (recall that none of them were required to wash their hands prior to the experiment, and they were allowed to place personal items on the table - a phone in one instance); etc..

Nevertheless:

1) Table 1 indicates that 3 "partial" profiles (from an unknown source) were discovered, while none of the (many) other entries use the designation "partial", which would seem to suggest that the rest were full/ complete profiles.

2) To the extent that DNA contained in watery/ liquid mediums (like saliva) can be ruled out, and that the subjects did not come into contact with one another prior to the experiment (for example, by shaking hands in a waiting room or some such), the study seems to demonstrate tertiary transfer of "touch" DNA rather clearly.

There are many apparent examples, to take but one, where the substrate in question was the table top:

"Three person mixtures were obtained from 60% of the table samples. Of these...16.7% matched the sitter, one other participant (that did not touch the table) and contained an unknown profile..."

So, Participant A to jug handle to Participant B to Participant B's table area, without Participant A ever having touched Participant B's table area.

That's 3 transfers. A's DNA winds up in a place A never touched.

I think this experiment lends much-needed reinforcement to defense arguments based on passive transfer of "touch" DNA (in particular: RS to door to CSI to bra clasp).

If I were Bongiorno, I'd be shouting about this month's edition of Legal Medicine from the nearest available mountain top.

Planigale has handed the dullards she's slumming with an excellent point, but they don't seem to realize it yet. Figures.

Nevertheless, the findings only serve to underscore the complexity of the analysis required which, of course, must ultimately entail a consideration of the TOTALITY of the evidence - each piece in relation to the whole:

What are the chances that this was a low probability tertiary transfer rather than a higher probability primary transfer in light of ... his lies to police, his shifting and conflicting alibis, the finding that he can't be excluded from the bloody bathmat print and can't be excluded from the luminol hit in the hall, the fact he'd only entered the cottage twice - briefly, the fact his DNA is absent in all but 2 (discarded cigarette and bra clasp) of the over 200 samples taken from the cottage, the fact his DNA is absent in all 16 samples taken from his own car, etc., etc., etc.?


PS And, if you really want to find the truth simpliciter, rather than a 'judical truth' established in a court of law pursuant to a set of arbitrary rules that pay little heed to concerns about the investigation and prevention of crime (absolute/ unqualified right to silence, bars on similar fact evidence/ prior bad acts, etc.), your evaluation ought to go so far as to include at least a guarded consideration of the lie about pricking MK while cooking for her, his express worries about what RG will say on the 'good' news that RG was apprehended, the pretrial cat and mouse games with RG - a man he 'never met', the knife fetish, the use of street drugs of unknown composition and purity, the imagery in his MPD Psycho collection, the lead about an incident in high school with scissors along with his dad's express interest in making water flow uphill, which could, in theory, entail getting a headmaster to shred documents and stonewall police, the way he now looks right into the camera lens and says with a straight face, 'but no one asked me any questions', after electing (on the advice of counsel, I'll bet) to spend the past 7 years invoking his right to silence in court, etc..
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jackie wrote:
1) Table 1 indicates that 3 "partial" profiles (from an unknown source) were discovered, while none of the (many) other entries use the designation "partial", which would seem to suggest that the rest were full/ complete profiles.


Yes, but define "complete". Over the years, as tests have advanced, the baseline for what constitutes the minimum to define a complete profile has increased. For example, in the earlier days 6 - 8 markers would be enough. In UK courts now, one requires at least 10. In Sollecito's case, 16 of his markers plus his Y-Haplotype are on that clasp. This makes any theoretical tertiary transfer even more difficult to justify. Moreover, one could perhaps entertain the possibility of some degree of tertiary transfer if Sollecito had perhaps left his DNA on the door/handle by means of his bodily fluids (which are rich in DNA, but we know it wasn't dues to the low RFU of Sollecito's profile in any case, which indicated that it was rather more likely to be epethelial cells) and were still wet when the third party came into contact with the door and then immediately came into contact with the clasp while those fluids were still wet, but nobody is even suggesting that. In fact, there were no fluids at all, dry or otherwise, by the time CSI's were able to get to that clasp and they had to touch other things first to get to it as it was under things (so further eroding any theoretical residue of whatever Sollecito DNA may have been on their gloves before coming into contact with the clasp). In any case, it's extremely difficult to transfer DNA in a dry environment. They are trying to argue his mere fingerprints are enough. I don't believe we're at the stage yet where we can extract full profiles even directly from fingerprints with standard testing methods, much less from fingerprint "residue" that had been transferred from A to B by a third party. And it was standard tests they used on the clasp. And finally, after all that, we also have to consider that Sollecito was not the only individual to touch the handle or door and not even the last, all of them there fiddled with that door, including Knox herself. And yet, Sollecito's is the only complete profile aside from Meredith's on that clasp. V & C can claim all they want that they see other profiles on that clasp but the claim simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Balding was quite clear, there are no other profiles on the clasp, the rest is just environmental DNA and is normal and to be expected. In this context, when all these facts are taken together, the whole tertiary transfer argument is simply not at all credible. Those who favour it like to bang on about how it is simply "possible" (which is debatable) and note that Sollecito probably touched the handle, while completely ignoring the rest of the context at the crime scene that day and on the day the clasp was collected as well as ignoring the volume, quality and nature of Sollecito DNA on the clasp. It therefore becomes quickly obvious that their argument is no more then then one of convenience, based entirely on wishful thinking and isn't the least bit credible. Again, they remain entrenched in their idea that all one has to do is argue an alternative is merely "possible" for it to negate any and all evidence. Criminal investigators and courts do not work that way.

Just to conclude, a little fact to emphasise how difficult it is to directly transfer DNA normally, before even approaching the theory of secondary and tertiary transfer. Dr Stefanoni stated at trial, to provide an example, of how she also took a swab from the inside elastic (which would have been in direct contact with her skin) of one of Meredith's worn discarded socks as a control. She stated that from there, one would have expected to reveal Meredith's profile, but there was none. This little control experiment provides further much needed context when considering the credibility of what Knox apologists are trying to make us swallow. The emperor is quite clearly naked.

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:53 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Jackie wrote:
1) Table 1 indicates that 3 "partial" profiles (from an unknown source) were discovered, while none of the (many) other entries use the designation "partial", which would seem to suggest that the rest were full/ complete profiles.


Yes, but define "complete". Over the years, as tests have advanced, the baseline for what constitutes the minimum to define a complete profile has increased. For example, in the earlier days 6 - 8 markers would be enough. In UK courts now, one requires at least 10. In Sollecito's case, 16 of his markers plus his Y-Haplotype are on that clasp. This makes any theoretical tertiary transfer even more difficult to justify. Moreover, one could perhaps entertain the possibility of some degree of tertiary transfer if Sollecito had perhaps left his DNA on the door/handle by means of his bodily fluids (which are rich in DNA, but we know it wasn't dues to the low RFU of Sollecito's profile in any case, which indicated that it was rather more likely to be epethelial cells) and were still wet when the third party came into contact with the door and then immediately came into contact with the clasp while those fluids were still wet, but nobody is even suggesting that. In fact, there were no fluids at all, dry or otherwise, by the time CSI's were able to get to that clasp and they had to touch other things first to get to it as it was under things (so further eroding any theoretical residue of whatever Sollecito DNA may have been on their gloves before coming into contact with the clasp). In any case, it's extremely difficult to transfer DNA in a dry environment. They are trying to argue his mere fingerprints are enough. I don't believe we're at the stage yet where we can extract full profiles even directly from fingerprints with standard testing methods, much less from fingerprint "residue" that had been transferred from A to B by a third party. And it was standard tests they used on the clasp. And finally, after all that, we also have to consider that Sollecito was not the only individual to touch the handle or door and not even the last, all of them there fiddled with that door, including Knox herself. And yet, Sollecito's is the only complete profile aside from Meredith's on that clasp. V & C can claim all they want that they see other profiles on that clasp but the claim simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Balding was quite clear, there are no other profiles on the clasp, the rest is just environmental DNA and is normal and to be expected. In this context, when all these facts are taken together, the whole tertiary transfer argument is simply not at all credible. Those who favour it like to bang on about how it is simply "possible" (which is debatable) and note that Sollecito probably touched the handle, while completely ignoring the rest of the context at the crime scene that day and on the day the clasp was collected as well as ignoring the volume, quality and nature of Sollecito DNA on the clasp. It therefore becomes quickly obvious that their argument is no more then then one of convenience, based entirely on wishful thinking and isn't the least bit credible. Again, they remain entrenched in their idea that all one has to do is argue an alternative is merely "possible" for it to negate any and all evidence. Criminal investigators and courts do not work that way.

Just to conclude, a little fact to emphasise how difficult it is to directly transfer DNA normally, before even approaching the theory of secondary and tertiary transfer. Dr Stefanoni stated at trial, to provide an example, of how she also took a swab from the inside elastic (which would have been in direct contact with her skin) of one of Meredith's worn discarded socks as a control. She stated that from there, one would have expected to reveal Meredith's profile, but there was none. This little control experiment provides further much needed context when considering the credibility of what Knox apologists are trying to make us swallow. The emperor is quite clearly naked.


Hi, Michael! Great to see you back at it!

They used a Power Plex 21 STR multiplex kit (Promega), which "allows co-amplification and fluorescent detection of 21 loci (20 STR loci and Amelogenin)", according to Promega's website.

But the paper (online) does not expressly state whether matching alleles were found at all 21 loci in each of the (many) cases that were not deemed "partial" in Table 1.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Picture of the day! :)


Image

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

(( OT OT - sort of ))

Number of women involved in mass murders much larger than has been assumed


In a context of collective mass violence, such as a war, women can be just as cruel as men, commit crimes against humanity, and act with the same motives. Still many more men are involved in mass violence than women, but the number of women is much larger than has been assumed so far. That is one of the main conclusions of new research by Alette Smeulers, Professor of International Criminology at Tilburg University and the University of Groningen.

Until the genocide in Rwanda in 1994 it was generally assumed that women tend to play a very limited role in periods of mass violence. The research by Alette Smeulers shows however that there seems to be no role women haven't played in the past. Moreover, many more women than so far assumed have been involved in mass atrocities. In Female perpetrators: Ordinary or extra-ordinary women?, published in International Criminal Law Review nr. 15 (2015), Smeulers presents evidence for the involvement of women not only in for instance Nazi Germany, but also in more contemporary conflicts in Sierra Leone, Sudan, Colombia and Iraq to name but a few.

Most women are indirectly involved by supporting the regime and the criminal policies or behavior of their husbands. Many women have an administrative or supporting role but still quite a few are physically involved as traitors, thieves, prison and camp guards or combatants. Women can even be involved in sexual violence – sometimes in a supporting capacity (holding the victim) but in some cases also as the main physical perpetrator.

The gathered evidence shows that women too can commit horrendous crimes and physically or sexually abuse, maltreat or kill other people in a context of collective mass atrocities. The reason why so many more men are involved is not because they are more evil but simply because militarized units which are the main organizations responsible for the physical perpetration of international crimes are still male dominated. How many women are and have been involved exactly is impossible to tell but it is clear that there are many more women involved than we would expect.

Smeulers also shows that the women who are involved in mass violence are not mentally disturbed sadists or being forced into it as media reports tend to suggest. Some might have been forced and others might indeed have been disturbed but so many women have been involved in mass atrocities that it is simply impossible to qualify all of them as such.

"It is time to accept that many female perpetrators are ordinary women and that ordinary women just like ordinary men can become involved in mass atrocities", says Smeulers. "Women can be just as ruthless and cruel as men."



PHYS.ORG

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I know this video has been posted elsewhere and many of you may have already seen it.

Re-posting it here for those looking to pass the time until March 25. ;)

Carlo della Vedova, Attorney - October 20th, 2014

Carlo Della Vedova, an attorney from our school's firm, came to speak about law in Italy and the US, the Italian Supreme Court, and managing the Amanda Knox case.


He starts speaking about the Amanda Knox case at about 8 min into the video.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Picture of the day! :)


Image



That little weasel sure has a giant appetite... and confidence in it's abilities.

Woodpecker looks quite surprised too.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

PK777 wrote:
Hi all. Thanks for providing this discussion board. This image was posted by an Innocenter who suggested the car park users were startled by a sound coming from the direction of the cottage. I would be interested in anyone's thoughts on this.

Image

Also if there is anyone who is knowledgeable of phone records I would value their opinion of the 10:13pm log on to a tower that would not usually be logged onto from inside the cottage. Some posters claim detectives had to be in the cottage grounds in order to log on to the same cell tower as the 10:13 log on.

I am an involvementer.



Vehicle(s) approaching. If a fight or yelling I would think they would be reacting more strongly.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I would accord these defense sourced partial releases all the respect they deserve if they provided access to the full file, dgfred. They prove nothing, solve nothing, are not corroborated by anything or anyone, and doomed to go nowhere, seeing as how it's three weeks to Cassation. BTW, the only person looking at the direction of the cottage is the woman in the second frame.

They're pretty good quality frames BTW. Where's the relevant frame of "Amanda" or "Rudy"?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:08 am   Post subject: NARA CAPEZZALI. COULD SHE HAVE HEARD WHAT SHE HEARD?   

The helpful folk have posted this video of a sound engineer's re-enactment. Could Nara Capezzali have heard the sound of running feet up the iron stairs?

Errors, lies and omissions:

1) The apartment isn't 200 meters away it is at best 200 feet. I checked, plus Google Earth is pretty good also.

2) The assistant wearing shoes 'consistent with what Rudy Guede was wearing that night'. What about what Amanda Knox AND Raffaele Sollecito were wearing that night?

3) The noisy iron stairs had been repaired since 2007.

4) He ran up the stairs rather timidly. I ran a little faster and it sounded a LOT louder than what the show produced.

5) No sound check done to see if Mrs Capezzali could have heard a mortal scream from the cottage.

Conclusion: The expert and the TV show lied.

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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The only thing I really consider about the scream is that RG and AK both mention it first thing. RG out of the bathroom, AK in her vision/partial replay. They obviously ran away... so did RG at some point. I imagine both runs knew about which way the other was going.

Do you think RG might have called emergency 'if' Meredith's phones were still there? Or did he just leave them, take them or did the other two/or one get them later on?
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:49 am   Post subject: FOA = cowed?   

Anyone have any thoughts as to why the usual suspects are so quiet so close to the Big Day?

Are they bored?

Are they resigned?

Are they busy on the 'anti-extradition phase' of the campaign? You know, drafting letters to politicians and journalists, hounding Johnny Depp, prepping articles for 'citizen journalist' websites, figuring out ways to vote more than once in a new 'We The People" Petition, helping Knox to move to Ecuador...that kind of thing?
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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I have never doubted that tertiary transfer does occur. A research paper that establishes this does not interest me that much.

I would be more interested in research which modules the experiments to take into account the many considerations that apply to forensic detection and interpretation at your average crime scene. A paper that is not based on that sort of research is unlikely to be able to assist a court.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Anti-extradition, full speed ahead, Jackie. Hidey holes being prepared. Steve Moore knows all about that.

Big Question is, has the wedding cake been ordered? Spare room painted pink or blue?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Brucie has written a new piece on "journalistic integrity" for the Ground Report; this time he's picking on John Follain. :roll:
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:46 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

They are busy collecting reading material for the next 20 years or so, and making a plan how to better their lives. Ok, just kidding. Busy digging a getaway tunnel is more likely :)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:56 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

WE just had a tunnel discovery in Toronto, with a rosary and poppy, max. Frank Sfarzo and Judge Heavey were found lurking, shovels in hand ;)

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/02/24/li ... n-am-games
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Brucie has written a new piece on "journalistic integrity" for the Ground Report; this time he's picking on John Follain. :roll:

Reading BF's piece, I'm getting a deja vu feeling as if I've seen and responded to some of these same claims years ago.

In any case, I had a look at the Italian intercepts there are in the Wiki file library and I think Follain may be quoting from the Italian translation of this intercepted conversation so it seems as if the second claim by BF that AK doesn't mention Rudy's name at all is at least wrong. Unless the original English transcript differs in this respect and if that is really the version BF is quoting from.

Italian version of the intercepted conversation wrote:
AMANDA: Ahm…mi ha chiesto quanto conoscessi bene…quest’altro ragazzo
PADRE DI AMANDA: Si
AMANDA: Rudy, questo ragazzo detto anche Rudy
PADRE DI AMANDA: Non hanno detto il nome ancora
AMANDA: Oh, lo dicono in TV
PADRE DI AMANDA: Credi che possa capire la TV in italiano? ah ah ah
AMANDA: ah ah ah
PADRE DI AMANDA: Non riuscivo a capire nemmeno Luciano e Daniela…
AMANDA: Ha dovuto farvi da interprete?
PADRE DI AMANDA: Si


Bruce Fischer wrote:
Follain appears to add non-existent dialogue once again, changing the tone of Amanda’s statement here:

Amanda continued: ‘And then [Ghirga] asked me at what level I know this other man . . . this Rudy. Is that his name, Rudy?’

Here is what Amanda actually said:

Amanda: Ehm… he asked me how well I knew… this other boy

Follain continues:

Curt replied no one had said anything yet about his name. Amanda told him the TV had given his name.

By changing the dialogue, Follain works to establish that Curt calls out Amanda for mentioning Rudy’s name before anyone else had mentioned it. But that is not what happened. Here is the actual dialogue:

Amanda: Ehm… he asked me how well I knew… this other boy

Amanda’s Father: They still haven’t given a name yet

Amanda: Oh, they’re saying it on the TV

Amanda’s Father: You think I can understand Italian TV? Ha ha ha.

Amanda: ha ha ha

Amanda’s Father: I couldn’t even understand Luciano and Daniela…

Amanda: Did he have to translate for you?

Amanda’s Father: Yes


Does the English sound as if idiomatic spoken English? Or does it sound as if translated from another language? Would AK use the word "boy" rather than "guy"?

She certainly doesn't sound as if she's heartbroken because Meredith is dead with all that laughing in that particular transcript, there are ha ha has after almost every other comment but then again it was almost three weeks later so she'd probably settled down in the prison and was obviously happy to see her father, I presume.

Source for the Italian version: http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/F ... stigations
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi, Rumpole, according to Hugo on dot Org, http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewto ... 31#p182731
Quote:
At the moment, for some reason, they're busy having a go at John Follain, even though his book is getting quite out of date now. One of their big gotchas is a claim that Follain misrepresents the transcript of one of Rudy Guede's interviews. The trouble is, they're quoting Follain's precis of the 7 December 2007 interview with Judge Matteini, then comparing it to a translated transcript excerpt from the 26 March 2008 interview with Mignini.

Elsewhere they've produced illusory inconsistencies by just dicking about with the translation. It's all a bit hopeless.


I wouldn't go with anything Bruce Fischer says, they have not only dicked around with the translations, but Stefanoni's notes, Boemia's foot prints, crime scene photos, forensic evidence read outs, and posted a whole lot of other shite on YouTube and the net. We'll just present the original documents on a best effort basis, and not worry about inconsistencies in the reporting from seven years ago.
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:08 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ciao Ergon,

I was looking at the claims right at the beginning of BF's piece where he's quoting from an intercepted prison conversation between AK and her dad. And I think BF's claim
Quote:
Follain appears to create the line “OK, we’ll say it was a mistake” from Ghirga to Amanda out of thin air. Amanda doesn’t mention it at all.
is correct as I didn't find it in the Italian translation of the transcript either whereas the 2nd claim BF made seems to be wrong if compared with the Italian version of the intercept as I demonstrated above. But as I said, we don't know which version or versions of the intercept Follain has used.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
WE just had a tunnel discovery in Toronto, with a rosary and poppy, max. Frank Sfarzo and Judge Heavey were found lurking, shovels in hand ;)

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/02/24/li ... n-am-games

Lol...no no...only for real men...no terrorists..no IS...just a man cave..you know...like a cave for...eehh .. men!... :mrgreen:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/t ... -1.2978109
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Just to remind everyone: today (Mar 5) is the second preliminary hearing where a translation of "Honor Bound" is discussed. Then, as Andrea Vogt tweeted, "a decision on a trial or not".

I hope the court interpreter / translator has done his/her job and we'll hear about the outcome of today's hearing later today or tomorrow.

Until then, here are three more videos from Eric Paroissien, of an old episode (Nov 12, 2013) of Linea Gialla. I've also posted them to the Media subforum here: http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewto ... 18#p116518

Linea_Gialla_01 (12-Nov-2013)



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2ieyl2_telefonata-01-12-11-2013_school

Many thanks to Eric, once again, for translating, subtitling and uploading these videos to the Daily Motion video sharing website.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Linea_Gialla_02 (12-Nov-2013)



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2ilhgo_telefonata-02-12-11-2013_school
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Linea_Gialla_03 (12-Nov-2013)



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2ino8y_telefonata-03-12-11-2013_school
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

For our movie aficionados: a new trailer for "The Face of an Angel" has just been released (it looks a bit chaotic to me...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnjYgPw_zkA

The timing is curious: in cinemas March 27, just after the Supreme Court ruling. Coincidence or deliberate decision?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Totally coincidental, guermantes :)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jodi Arias gets hung jury, life sentence http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/03/05 ... e-sentence

Someone one couldn't execute a white woman, I guess. Was expecting this.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

It was to be expected, I guess - Sollecito & Gumbel trial deferred:


Andrea Vogt @andreavogt · 3 minutes ago

Quote:
Florence court appoints Italian & English interpreters in memoir defamation case vs. co authors Sollecito & Gumbel. Next date May 14.


https://twitter.com/andreavogt/status/573554825159438336

--------------------------------------------

I don't quite understand: didn't the court appoint an interpreter and request a translation of (allegedly) defamatory passages from "Honor Bound" at the last hearing? Or was Gumbel in court today and had requested an interpreter for himself? (Scratching my head and trying to figure out what happened.)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

A bit more detail about today's hearing (and a different court date):

Meredith murder, prosecutor asked to bring to trial Sollecito for defamation
Florence, 5 March 2015

The preliminary hearing judge of Florence today appointed two experts in charge of translating the 17 pages of the book Honor Bound (Legati dall'onore), published in the US, where Raffaele Sollecito reconstructs his legal case related to the murder of Meredith Kercher, and for which he is being sued by the Perugian magistrate Giuliano Mignini, who was in charge of the investigation.

For the young Apulian (today not in the courtroom) and co-author Andrew Gumbel, a PM from the Tuscan capital [Florence] has asked to hold a trial for slander and defamation of the police force. In particular, the preliminary hearing judge indicated a translator of Italian and native language [English?] [una traduttrice italiana e una di madrelingua]. The deadline for a translation has been set to April 10 while the hearing will take place on the 30th of the same month.

Sollecito - rejecting disputed allegations - appointed as adviser an academic [a teacher, lecturer] specializing in translation of books. To defend him and Gumbel are lawyers Alfredo Brizioli and Francesca Bacecci.


LA NAZIONE

See also: Meredith: GUP hearing for Sollecito accused of defamation by prosecutor

Florence judge appoints appraisers (qualified experts?) for the translation of the book

IL TIRRENO (TOSCANA)
---------------------
GUP - Giudice dell'udienza preliminare - Preliminary hearing judge
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Linea_Gialla_04 (12-Nov-2013):



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2iryaa_telefonata-04-12-11-2013_school
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
It was to be expected, I guess - Sollecito & Gumbel trial deferred:


Andrea Vogt @andreavogt · 3 minutes ago

Quote:
Florence court appoints Italian & English interpreters in memoir defamation case vs. co authors Sollecito & Gumbel. Next date May 14.


https://twitter.com/andreavogt/status/573554825159438336

--------------------------------------------

I don't quite understand: didn't the court appoint an interpreter and request a translation of (allegedly) defamatory passages from "Honor Bound" at the last hearing? Or was Gumbel in court today and had requested an interpreter for himself? (Scratching my head and trying to figure out what happened.)


As Andrea Vogt said on her website previously, it was fully expected the hearing would be put over to another date. It would look like piling on otherwise, and nothing must distract from Cassazione. Same reason why the Sfarzo and Knox/Mellas trials have been put over as well.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:53 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I am reading this article differently than wot Vogt sez :) According to this article http://www.lanazione.it/umbria/sollecit ... i-1.733909 the translations must be handed in April 10 to the court, which will reconvene on the "30th of the same month"? Hmm. Confirmation, please?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Correction: This report has Vogt right http://corrieredellumbria.corr.it/news/ ... ne--l.html Reports due April 30, next hearing May 14 for the Sollecito Gumbel defamation inquiry.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Correction: This report has Vogt right http://corrieredellumbria.corr.it/news/ ... ne--l.html Reports due April 30, next hearing May 14 for the Sollecito Gumbel defamation inquiry.


Translation:

Sollecito accused of defamation, the hearing

A process ends up "on trial." Which could only create scandal. And unleash, inevitably, the wrath of those that debate the procedure under way. We are talking about the book that Raffaele Sollecito wrote with journalist Paul (sic) Gumbel, titled "Honor Bound, my journey to hell and back with Amanda Knox."

It came under fire for a series of incriminating passages that led to the young Pugliese and his collaborator’s indictment in the courts for libel and defamation against the police. Nailed by the then-pm (now attorney general) Giuliano Mignini. A frontal attack, according to the indictment, by Sollecito. That in a volume (completely in English, never distributed in Italy) he speaks of "tactics of the prosecution that became more and more dirty." Or of "macabre embrace between the public prosecutor’s office [procura] and tabloid media," and questions "the evidence and its acquisition." After a request for trial, in Florence was held the second preliminary hearing.

With the preliminary hearing judge Dolores Limongi who saw fit to appoint more consultants to dig deeper into the contents of the book. One will be Barbara Ciofi (Italian), the other one - Jaine Galder (English). Who will have to deliver the transcript (work on which is set to begin near [March?] 10) on 30 April. Even the civil party has reserved the right to appoint its own expert, as well as the defense of Raffarlr (sic) Sollecito, represented by Alfredo Brizioli. Who will focus on strong advice of Dr. Giovanni Agnoloni. Next round set for 14 May.


CORRIERE DELL'UMBRIA
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

March is kidney disease awareness month. AK has chosen to write about it and post it on her blog. Arlene Kercher as we all know has kidney disease . I see it as more in your face attention seeking at this time.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:37 am   Post subject: TRANSLATION   

Note to .ORG


Just to correct: http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewto ... 44#p182844

but the translation is courtesy of guermantes, above.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:54 am   Post subject: TRANSLATIONS   

On the other hand, the Wiki has received a new translation Raffaele Sollecito's Nov 5th 2007 Statement to the Police

Which replaces the incomplete version PMF used to have in the "In Their Words" section.

What was missing was the final sentence, found in the original document:

Original Italian: A.D.R. Lei solitamente porta sempre con se una grande borsa che aveva anche la sera del 1 novembre.

Missing translation:
Quote:
QA. She always carried a big bag that she also had the night of November 1st.


Interesting to note. Also to compare with the many versions and inconsistencies of his "Honor Bound" book.
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
For our movie aficionados: a new trailer for "The Face of an Angel" has just been released (it looks a bit chaotic to me...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnjYgPw_zkA
Thanks for posting this.

I find this UK trailer quite appealing - sort of intriguing and mysterious. There seems to be huge interest in this movie. Or in Cara Delevingne. And some women seem to find Daniel Brühl hot :shock:

There were +120.000 views yesterday, now there are close to 180.000 and the clip was posted only 4 days ago.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:47 am   Post subject: ANOTHER REVIEW OF FACE OF AN ANGEL   

Saw the movie at TIFF.

It was a good movie. I might quibble with Winterbottom's questionable source Frank Sfarzo (which he also did on his Daniel Pearl movie A Mighty Heart!) but my review explains what I saw and felt..

Highly recommended that every one sees the picture.

Daniel Bruhl is Winterbottom, Kate Beckinsale is Barbie Nadeau, some may disagree with me but Cara Delevigne really is Amanda Knox and the actress who plays Meredith shares my birthday hugz-)

There also is A Nick Pisa character, and Frank Sfarzo character.

Winterbottom either sleeps with his actresses (or his character does, he's an Aries after all :) or idealizes them.

It ends with the Hellmann trial so is really incomplete. As a work of art a flawed masterpiece but anyone who references Dante and puts well within a three act frame; kudos.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:51 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

BTW, for the shy handwriting analysts in our audience, the original Italian PDF of RS November 06 statement is signed by him, a rather nifty signature don't think many may have seen. Will port over tomorrow.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Michael wrote:
Latest, from Andrea Vogt:

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 50 minutes ago
More trouble for #amandaknox as Florence courts set March 20 prelim hearing on continuous aggravated calumny charges re: cop abuse claims.


March 20 preliminary hearing regarding complaints about police brutality?

That's the least of Knox's concerns. She still has a debt to Patrick, and she has not been correctly confined for murder. Meredith lies in her grave, while Knox is known to have lied about the circumstances of Meredith's murder. Evidence of Knox's presence at the murder cannot be denied.

For Knox, it is a joke to be invited to a halloween party where she does a no-show, knowing that she is not actually invited to Hallowe'en Parties ... even before she was a murderer.

She can complain that she confessed to murder in under an hour, and subsequently accused a man asleep at home of murder by accident, but no one believes the liar.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Re the announcement above, Raffaele Sollecito’s statement has been renamed: Raffaele Sollecito's Nov 6th 2007 Statement to the Police since that is when he signed it. There’s also a nifty signature of RS’s on the original PDF for our graphologists to peruse.

New URL is at http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/R ... the_Police

More to come, but I'm off to see a movie. Happy International Women's day!
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:44 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
More to come, but I'm off to see a movie.


Speaking of movies: meet another movie character - Jacopo - inspired by Raffaele Sollecito.

6 March 2015
Gabriele Rossi and the character inspired by Raffaele Sollecito: "I will see with his own eyes"

Something is about to change. And those who follow Gabriele Rossi’s acting career and are used to seeing him on screen in One step from heaven, now a well-known drama, in which he plays a grandson of Terence Hill, be ready. Because, soon, you’ll see Gabriele as you’ve never seen him before. In April he will start filming a particular film, The Morning After, directed by Ruggero Deodato. And at this point, a clarification is necessary: Gabriele does not play the role of Raffaele Sollecito, as has been written more than once, but of a character inspired by him. Also because the story of the murder of Meredith Kercher has not yet ended; in January 2014 Sollecito and Amanda Knox were sentenced to 25 years and 28 years and 6 months imprisonment, their lawyers have filed an appeal to the Supreme Court asking for an annulment of the judgment without referral [to a new trial], and the final ruling is due soon. No, Gabriele will not be Raffaele. He will be called Jacopo. But putting on those clothes will also be very, very challenging. He prepares, with the self-control that seems to always be his hallmark, aware, however, of facing a full-scale challenge. An experience that is nothing like what he has done so far.

This film is not a biopic of Raffaele Sollecito.
No, because the long legal battle has not yet ended. My character, Jacopo, was inspired by Sollecito but it is not a biography.

Just missing the first take.
That's right, shooting will begin in April. We’ll be filming some scenes between Rome and Orvieto. And in these last days we are deepening the study of the characters.

Jacopo will still be a boy accused of murder; in that direction is the script and, as a result, your work?
The first goal, of course, is to make all the characters in the film look realistic, trying, however, to reflect aspects of their being overshadowed by the crime and its consequences. As for Jacopo, a large part of my job is to show what was before and what would have been after if that girl had not died. And the will to clear, in a sense, his name and image. Albeit not justify it in any way, mind you. And even try to tell his part ... Normal.

How are you preparing? And you cannot get influenced by the judgment that you accrued before this story?
Well, my method is to crack jokes in front of a wall. I can tell a lot, rather, whatever the part I have to play. I try to read as much as possible, to put together all the material on a particular character. […] If I have to portray an alleged murderer, I read about crime cases where a killer was involved,

A work of metabolism.
Exactly. Gradually, in some way, I become that character. I give him breath, I see with his eyes, speak with his voice. In Jacopo I try to convey something of me, humanizing what has been dehumanized. I repeat: I do not condone nor condemn him, but I want to make it as close to the human dimension as possible.

Most actors consider a film a point of arrival. Is it the same for you?
It depends. There are bad movies and good fiction. We should never forget that. Let's say that, for me, this film is an especially good opportunity to learn about another side of me. I don’t mind the idea of playing more ‘noir’ characters.
[...]

http://velvetcinema.it/2015/03/06/gabri ... et-cinema/
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Linea Gialla_05 (12-Nov-2013)



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2ix7br_telefonata-05-12-11-2013_school
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Raffaele Sollecito's expert - translator Dr. Giovanni Agnoloni (Florence):

http://it.linkedin.com/pub/giovanni-agnoloni/27/790/a48/en

GIOVANNI AGNOLONI

He has an Honours degree in Law from the University of Florence, "with a thesis on Data Protection Law in Italy and the Common Law countries."
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Just to put a face to the name - Barbara Ciofi's LinkedIn Profile:

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/barbara-ciofi/47/630/2b3

International Legal English Certificate
University of Cambridge ESOL Examinations, License 126IT0070004
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:21 pm   Post subject: SLOUGH AND DESPOND   

Having seen Raffaele Sollecito's lawyer Giulia Buongiorno throw in the Kitchen Sink in the recent addendum to his appeal, Amanda Knox's supporters Beg The Question:

Quote:
Amanda Knox Case Public Discussion Forum 2-8-2011 Teddy » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:48 am

Quote:
MichaelB wrote:
Why haven't Amanda's attorneys written an appeal for her like Bongiorno has written for Raffaele?


Because they're useless, unfortunately. :(
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:13 pm   Post subject: NEW TRANSLATION   

From original order of remand/arrest by Prosecutor Mignini Knox Sollecito Lumumba November 06, 2007

Note: for the amateur detectives, Knox division who got all excited about this subject a while back, it appears to be written in Comic sans MS font :)

With thanks to the anonymous translator who submitted it.

Some excerpts:
Quote:
KNOX in her witness statement from today has then confessed that, meeting DIYA in the basketball court of Piazza Grimana went to, together with DIYA, Meredith’s house, where DIYA, after having sex with the victim, killed her.

Quote:
The sexual intercourse must be deemed violent in nature considering the particularly threatening context in which it took place and in which KNOX has surely aided DIYA.

Quote:
As far as the essential facts against SOLLECITO there are numerous verifiable inconsistencies in his first declarations, in respect to the last ones

Quote:
In regards to KNOX she has shown a particular ruthlessness in lying repeatedly to the investigators and in involving in such a serious event the young SOLLECITO.


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:08 am   Post subject: THE MURDER KNIFE   

Note to Mister Pink of .ORG and I do have a "mad respect", likewise, for your contrariness ;) but your comment disagreeing with my analysis of the knife?

Your photo, attached below:


Well, I had a graphic designer (not my work, so I can't confirm 100 %) use Illustrator to match the knife to scale from the original high definition crime scene photos, with the ruled police card "O" to confirm dimensions. The video (and scale drawings) can be viewed here: http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php ... her_proof/ along with the reference photos. Perhaps you could take a look?

In anticipation of your response. I have other reference and scale drawings used in the work, will look for those.

Is it proof this is the murder knife? No. But I do agree with prosecutor Alessandro Crini that the imprint matches the dimensions of the kitchen knife.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Here's one high def photo. Large size!

Image

Knife Impression "O". Serrations and dimensions is I believe same as the kitchen knife.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Still, considering the murder took place in the year 2007 and it is now 2015, it's an awfully long time for a case to run, in my opinion, there must be another way to conduct matters, and have a case dealt with much, much faster. For one thing, is it a long road for Meredith's parents.

If they are going to hold on to the 3-tier system, and make it so easy for convicted persons to appeal, then the time in between cannot be allowed to last as long as seen in this case, and judges should not be permitted to have a case arranged around their holiday periods and the rest of it.

A case such as this should be dealt with, within a 3-year max. period.

Or it may as well go on forever.

Though these three, in my opinion, are all guilty, in the event they were not, then how could it be justice to have, what in that case would be innocent people, actually be punished, for so long? Since, if you had committed no crimes but became tied up in a case lasting 8 years, how could the damage done to you be repaired, ever?

In this case, when they were found guilty, the appeal result should have meant they had to remain confined by prison bars, until the final decision taken in the supreme Court, after all they were found guilty of murder, if they are not definitively confined or not yet fully excused, then if guilty, it means what could potentially be persons capable of committing further murders, are free to roam, what kind of system is it that permits such high levels of danger to the public? Imagine if these were Bundy types.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Peter Gill will be on Porta a Porta tonight:

12 March 2015
Quote:
Rai1 - Porta a Porta, 22:40: We discuss the revolution in the Vatican after two years of Papa Francesco. Guests of Bruno Vespa will be theologians, writers, Vaticanists. In addition, Peter Gill, a world authority in studies on new technologies for DNA tests, will examine the position of Raffaele Sollecito investigated [indagato] for the murder of Meredith. Also a face to face between Bruno Vespa and Fausto Bertinotti.


http://www.tuttotv.info/2015/03/12/seconda-serata-12-marzo-2015/

Sloppy wording: "investigated for the murder of Meredith". He is no longer being investigated; he has been convicted twice.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:34 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Our "old friend" Lyn Duncan a.k.a. "Annella" has been tweeting non-stop about tonight's Porta a Porta here:

Lyn Duncan

Lyn Duncan @Annella
Prof. #PeterGill on Italian show #PortaaPorta right now doing an EXCELLENT job! For #meredithkercher #amandaknox

Lyn Duncan ‏@Annella
#Gill says it is 'bizarre' that Defense has to prove contamination when should be Prosecution disproving! #YUP!!

(Check out her Twitter avatar. :roll: So, instead of just stopping at a stop sign, what does she do? ;) Lyn Duncan, the Unstoppable.)

It looks like Vittorio Feltri, Salvo Sottile and Judge Simonetta Matone were also guests on the show:

Chiara Fabris wrote:
GRAZIE dott.sa #Matone da Lei imparo sempre tanto ..donna verace, lucida, chiara, diretta
THANK dott.sa #Matone I always learn so much from you ..true, lucid, clear, direct woman


angela wrote:
Dr.ssa Matone always discerning (perceptive)!!!


https://twitter.com/er_cometa/status/57 ... 72/photo/1

That "Annella" didn't say a single word of praise for Matone could only mean that the judge had succeeded in exposing and dissecting Peter Gill's lies. Okay, "lies" perhaps is too strong a word, so let's use "his not the most impartial expert opinions" instead. ;)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The March 12 episode of Porta a Porta is available to watch here: Porta a Porta

The relevant part starts @ (0:58 minutes) +~ 11 min



picture of a pumpkin
This Post has been edited by a Moderator
Details: To fix a broken link, time on video and add image


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:56 am   Post subject: DNA VS GILL   

Sigh. The good professor Gill can say all he likes, seeing as how he never will be called to testify for the defense, or be cross examined. I watched the show, and while he goes on about 'contamination' he still repeats the same scenario: RS touched a surface, and somehow his DNA got transferred with a technician's latex glove, or, there was contamination in the laboratory.

I repeat: I have not seen one study in which complete profiles (15 out of 19 autosomal locus points-see http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/The_Bra_Clasp) have been successfully transferred through tertiary transfer, and I have considered the substrates involved and what effect mixed profiles on LCN DNA can have on probability ratios :)

Gill goes on about the "CSI effect" on audiences, and to say Hellmann ruled the prosecution had to prove contamination did not occur, whereas Nencini placed the onus on the defense to prove contamination did occur, which he thinks is unfair.

Except it is a dishonest argument. The prosecution DID prove contamination did not occur, and if Gill had read the court decisions, he would have known this.

ETA: Gill is mentioned in the recent addition to Raffaele Sollecito's appeal to the Supreme Court. That he should have been brought on Porta a Porta with Francesco Sollecito and Vittorio Feltri, the "journalist" who made those obscene comments about Meredith previously without any one from the prosecution makes it look like another Berlusconi effort to influence the Italian Supreme Court.

Won't happen, IMO.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I encourage every single British poster on PMF to contact Philip Hammond, the Foreign Secretary, before 25 March. Here are his contact details:


Philip Hammond
House of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA

t: 020 7219 4055
e: philip.hammond.mp@parliament.uk
It will literally take a few minutes to write an e-mail to him. Amanda Knox shouldn’t be allowed to get away with murder. Sexual assault and murder should never acceptable in a civilised and just society. Immunity shouldn’t be given to Knox just because she is a white, middle-class American woman who committed her crimes abroad. Meredith Kercher was a British citizen and the British government should ensure that justice is served in this case.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Let's do everything we can to make this happen.


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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I've sent tweets to Philip Hammond and copied in a number of British newspaper editors, Nick Clegg and David Cameron.

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/577102473502056448

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/577102656457539584

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/577101164585607168

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/577104900502478849

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/577100360759844865

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/577099827277860864

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/577099491238625280

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/577098848683819008

https://twitter.com/harryrag/status/577106148974788608

Please retweet. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:30 pm   Post subject: ANNOUNCEMENT RE TMOMK WIKI   

Each page on The Meredith Kercher Wiki now has a "share it" button in the heading and also on the navigation pane to the left. Makes it easier to post individual articles on social media like Facebook, Twitter, Google+ etc and share by e-mail to reporters and news editors.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

~Ergon~ wrote:
Edit: To fix a broken link, time on video and add image.


Thanks for fixing the link, Ergon. I posted it at night when the video of the Porta a Porta episode was just over 1 1/2 hours long, with the first part (about Vatican) lasting just 10 minutes, which I found surprising. Obviously, it was incomplete at the time.

I'm sure everyone already knows that one of the "Friends of Amanda" has delivered the Change.org petition to the U.S. Department of State. For those who missed it: I'm making a rare exception today by linking to an article on Ground Report - (we usually don't do this ;) )

GROUND REPORT

It was posted on March 9, and the FOA have been congratulating each other on this achievement ever since.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I found this doc - a summary of Amanda Knox's defense closing arguments at the appeal trial in Florence -

among files on my PC and couldn't remember where I got it from. First I thought I had

downloaded it from .org, but then, by looking at the initials of the doc's creator ("LC"),

I realized it could be "Luca Cheli", a FOA recruit living in Italy; still the summary is worth

reading. For those interested, I'm attaching it below:

Attachment:
KnoxDefenseClosing.docx


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Also, it's interesting to note that the AK defense team's closing arguments

and Raffaele Sollecito's latest appeal to the Court of Cassation have many points in common.

Has his defense team borrowed some ideas from Knox's lawyers?

Read the summary of the New Reasons for Appeal, submitted by Bongiorno et al. on March 6, here:

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Summary-Sollecito-New-Reasons-of-Appeal.pdf

Regarding this latest (supplementary) appeal, I have a question: do the defense teams have the right to file an 11th hour appeal as happened in this case? My impression was that the Supreme Court couldn't extend the time and accept a late appeal, and there was a strict deadline?

For the sake of completeness, here's Knox's appeal summary as well, by the same Luca Cheli:

Knox Appeal Summary

I know we have to be careful and consider the source, but, at the same time, it'd be useful to familiarize ourselves with the main points of both appeals as all of this will be discussed at the final appeal hearing on the 25th.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yesterday (March 15), Sollecito gave an interview to Roberto Tallei on Sky TG24:

The Meredith case, Sollecito: "In the investigation blunders" (VIDEO)

The young Apulian speaks to Sky TG24, waiting for the verdict of the Supreme Court, which must rule on the appeal ruling that sentenced him, along with Amanda Knox, for the murder of British student.

"It's not that the judges are bad, but they are people who make mistakes, disarming in their coarseness / crudity." [...]

The supreme court could void the sentence again (as was done for the acquittals of second degree celebrated in Perugia) or confirm it, thus making final the conviction of Amanda and Raffaele. Sollecito, in the interview with Sky TG24, also speaks of the uncertainty he had at first about whether or not Amanda had moved away from the house the night of the murder and says: "Today, my memories are these, I don't remember whether she was absent from home."


SKY TG24

Eric Paroissien has posted a rough translation of the interview HERE.

ETA: Here's the subtitled video for convenience:



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2josfb_rs-15-03-2015_school
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:53 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

"Amanda Knox had been hanging out with him (Guede) 5 days."

Is just referring to when she and Meredith hung out with the boys downstairs. If he wants to throw her under the bus, could he at least do a half-assed job of it?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:12 pm   Post subject: ECHR   

Someone at Venture Capital Post said Amanda Knox’s appeal to the ECHR had been rejected.

I have no knowledge of that, but this is just the minor appeal to ECHR for her calunnia conviction, to avoid paying Patrick his measly settlement and convince whomever she isn’t a convicted felon, she was physically and psychologically ‘tortured’, quack quack.

The next appeal to ECHR will be on the murder conviction, based on the claim she was ‘pre judged’ and convicted on the basis of evidence at Rudy Guede’s trial, an ingredient of her and Sollecito’s appeal to the Italian Supreme Court, where it will receive short shrift, since it was already addressed in various forms in the 2008 and 2013 Supreme Court Rulings.

I believe this will happen at ECHR as well, if the appeals are accepted at all.
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nicky Woolf from The US Guardian is planning to write an article about next week's hearing at the Italian Supreme. He's contacted Amanda Knox and Michelle Moore:

@michellesings Hi! I'm a writer for the Guardian. Would love to chat with you about the upcoming Amanda Knox appeal. How do I contact you?

https://twitter.com/NickyWoolf/status/5 ... 8777203712

@amamaknox hi - am looking to speak with you for the Guardian, if you'd be up for that. Have sent an email to Ken with details.

https://twitter.com/NickyWoolf/status/5 ... 0909897729
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Well if he's calling Michelle Moore we already know how the article will be writ, won't we? :)
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Well if he's calling Michelle Moore we already know how the article will be writ, won't we? :)

Amanda is innocent GOD
My husband is an ex sniper and hunted terrorists in a helicopter! GOD
The haters are not nice people:( GOD
The corrupt Italians are evil and have no conscience!!:( GOD
Italian wimmin' hate white American wimmin' which is why they framed Amanda!! :( GOD

At the very least it'll be entertaining in a car crash tv kinda way. :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nicky Woolf of the Guardian does write well. See Life or Death?

I doubt he'll be covering Amanda Knox's appeal since he already is covering the Tsarnaev trial in Boston, so maybe he's looking for a reaction shot from Michelle?
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

One more week till judgement day :) Besides RS's 'don't remembers', nothing much new in this case. I was expecting RS to come up with something new but it hasn't happened (yet). I think nobody cares at this stage anyway. I wish the Kercher family all the best, and hope the case is finally finished next week.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:28 pm   Post subject: LYAPIN VS RUSSIA   

Hey Jackie, the brain trust running Bruce's site may have gone on about Lyapin vs Russia but according to it

"he was gagged, tied up with a rope, punched, kicked and subjected to electric shocks. While being interviewed about the circumstances of the thefts, Mr Lyapin was not formally recognised as a suspect. He had no access to a lawyer and his family was not informed of his detention."

IMO he was effectively under detention at that time. Knox was not, and fact remains, there is not one case I can find which has bearing on Knox's appeal (s)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:40 pm   Post subject: BREAKING NEWS AT KNOX CENTRAL   

CCTV Images of Tow Truck

The Knoxii have released new photos:

Quote:
The following images are of a broken down car and tow truck that were parked outside the Amanda Knox cottage between 10.45pm and 11.25pm on November 1, 2007. The mechanic and occupants of the broken down car and their friends who were parked in a second car heard no noises or screams coming from the cottage or noticed anything out of the ordinary.

However, as the Nencini motivations report indicates,
Quote:
In this case, however, as we will be able to highlight when dealing with the specific subject, there is no need of this kind, as it could be argued, without doubt of being contradicted, that any investigation into the precise time of night between 1 and 2 November 2007 that Meredith Kercher was murdered, instead of at another precise time, would have little relevance in the complex nature of evaluation of circumstantial evidence with which this Court is confronted in relation to the charges against Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox. In fact, from around 9:30 pm on 1 November 2007 until around 12:30 am on 2 November 2007, no factual finding has indicated that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were somewhere other than the place of the murder scene, or even in the company of people who can vouch for their alibi.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

"The Amanda Knox curse" continues and knocks (Knox) on some people's doors (again): those who have associated with her or helped her escape justice get themselves into trouble with the law. Anne Bremner, Paul Ciolino, now Rocco Girlanda. The important take away from this is that once again something (someone) Knox touches turns into yet another disaster, or perhaps she attracts certain types of people whom she has a lot in common with.

Andrea Vogt @andreavogt · Mar 16

Quote:
Florence prosecutors probing major public works corruption in Italy. Politician & #amandaknox book author Rocco Girlanda among 47 named.


Investigators focus on the logistic platform in Trieste

Incalza, Saglia, and Girlanda among the six suspects in connection with the tender notice issued by the Authority for infrastructure Corrado Barbacini

A contract for 132 million euro of which 30 are private [kickbacks]...

The big names - for the Trieste branch of investigation - are those of Stefano Saglia, former PDL and NCD [New Centre Right] and former Secretary to the Ministry for Economic Development; Rocco Girlanda, former PDL, former Secretary to the Ministry of Infrastructure and Transport in the Letta government and secretary of the CIPE, and now adviser to the Minister Maurizio Lupi.
...
The charge for the six suspects accused of complicity in bid rigging in connection with the tender notice. A crime that is configured even before the tender. Not for nothing in the evening Girlanda said to have been accused of complicity in bid rigging in relation to the award of the construction supervision for the hub of the port of Trieste. "But that tender - he said - never happened due to the decision of the Port Authority. How can I get upset a tender that has never been conducted?"


http://ilpiccolo.gelocal.it/trieste/cronaca/2015/03/17/news/nel-mirino-anche-la-piattaforma-logistica-di-trieste-1.11062091

Gazzetta del Sud wrote:
Judges investigating corruption in public contracts have suggested a relationship between Lupi and some of the suspects in the probe. Ercole Incalza, a public-works official for seven governments, was arrested Monday along with businessmen Stefano Perotti and Francesco Cavallo, as well as Incalza's aide Sandro Pacella, in the probe that saw more than 50 people including politicians placed under investigation for suspected kickbacks that inflated costs by as much as 40%.


GAZZETTA DEL SUD

I don't doubt that all those expensive gifts (laptop, iPhone), which Girlanda gave to Knox, he paid out of his own pocket. Nothing to do with corruption. ;)
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The most interesting aspect about those 'new' images is why they were never used before. The answer seems to be that it doesn't help the defenses argument. If those lights and truck are one and the same, if the other cctv clock is accurate, then you get to a maximum of 10 minutes that the cctv clock could have been slow. Then you get to an arrival of the police a few minutes before RS's 2nd phonecall. They could in fact then very well have been the reason why the first call was interrupted. We know that the images of people clocked at 12:48 were not the police. Could they have been the first roommates/friends arriving? This 10 minutes slow clock then also makes it possible that the woman walking into the parking garage was indeed Knox. At least, time-wise. All in all, not very helpful to the defense, and that is why they never used these images.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

max wrote:
The most interesting aspect about those 'new' images is why they were never used before. The answer seems to be that it doesn't help the defenses argument. If those lights and truck are one and the same, if the other cctv clock is accurate, then you get to a maximum of 10 minutes that the cctv clock could have been slow. Then you get to an arrival of the police a few minutes before RS's 2nd phonecall. They could in fact then very well have been the reason why the first call was interrupted. We know that the images of people clocked at 12:48 were not the police. Could they have been the first roommates/friends arriving? This 10 minutes slow clock then also makes it possible that the woman walking into the parking garage was indeed Knox. At least, time-wise. All in all, not very helpful to the defense, and that is why they never used these images.


I go with Mauro Barbadori's testimony,
The CCTV Camera Was 10 Minutes Fast
Quote:
Barbadori testified that the CCTV video was ten minutes fast and so to get the correct time you would need to subtract ten minutes from the time stated on the video. This calibration was accomplished by comparing the time on the camera during the collection to an accurate time taken from the Internet.

That is why I do not accept statements by parties who never had to testify in court that it was Meredith or Amanda Knox who were in those vague images.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I am not very impressed with Barbadori's testimony. He could easily have brought a little report of the calibration of the clock. Not just say some guy tested it and it was 10 minutes fast. I am sure it wasn't exactly 10 minutes either. He didn't seem very interested.

The CCTV images are as usual very vague. It would help if we knew how fast/slow the other CCTV was. So I don't know if the clock was fast or slow, but I am certain it wasn't slow enough otherwise the defense would have used these images. And why did they add images of a car in front of the gate at 23:15 (supposedly 10 mins after the truck left)? I went through some testimony of the broken down car people but none of them indicated that they hang around for awhile after the tow truck left, so why are these images included? Does it look like an Audi A3? :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Today's news:

19 March 2015

A (female) juror (popular judge) of the appeals process against Amanda and Raffaele: "Few clues for a conviction"

On the eve of the judgment of the Supreme Court on the murder of Meredith Kercher, who was killed on 1 November 2007 in Perugia, a sworn popular judge of the appeal process that sentenced Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to 28 and 25 years imprisonment is speaking out for the first time.

In an interview with the weekly OGGI, Genny Ballerini said: "I had many doubts about the guilt of the two young people (ragazzi). I wasn't an 'innocentista', but I thought, and I said to the others: "Not enough clues to inflict all these years in prison." What is the evidence to send [them] to prison? Maybe I was naive, but before pronouncing a weighty sentence I wanted to see clearly. There was too little, in my opinion, to justify such a heavy sentence: questionable proofs, strange witnesses, uncertain evidence."

Doubts - She also reveals her doubts about the motive ("Poor cleaning in the house?" As a good Tuscan I immediately called it "rubbish". "Would you slaughter a girl because she complains of a little 'smell in the bathroom'?") and the absence of traces of Amanda at the scene ("It has been argued that she had to delete them doing cleaning. Well! Today, if you look back, doubts arise").

Diary - She tells of her working method ("During the trial I kept a diary for every hearing. I wrote down everything that happened and at the end I added my own feelings") and relations with professional judges: "The President and the associate judge didn't express an opinion until the last moment. During all those months, I could never understand what they were thinking. They definitely didn't try to influence [us]. Explained to us only what we struggled to understand. I understood what they thought only when the sentence was being decided, but my doubts remained. "Rudy Guede left a lot [of traces] on the scene of the crime compared to Amanda and Raffaele, yet got away with a sentence of 16 years, instead of 25," I pointed out at some point. They explained that he had been tried under the summary procedure, which provides for a reduction of sentence."


FRONTE DEL BLOG
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Well, I tried again to make the 'clock is slow' theory work. I was wrong in suggesting any friends could be seen crossing the street when they arrived. Their testimony says they parked at the cottage. So did the postal police so the legs at 12:41 and 12:48 are a bit of a mystery. With a clock that is fast they could well be Knox and Sollecito walking around. With a clock that is slow I have no idea. Knox and Sollecito would be busy making phonecalls. Especially the 12:41 images makes it clear it can not be the postal police since their car just passed by, and the legs walk away from the cottage. Also the 12:48 images shows 2 people meeting up at the cottage gate which does not fit the testimony of the arrival of the postal police. So who were those people?

The main point of the clock is slow theory is the Carbinieri car at 13:22 'arriving'. With a slow clock this would fit the call for directions at 13:29 and the car arriving during this 5 minute call. On the other hand, that could just be a coincidence. With a clock is fast there would be no people outside and the Carbinieri didn't know about the presence of the postal police. There is nothing special about seeing a Fiat Punto..lol. The address is confusing so they could have moved on, searching, only to return 20 minutes later. The Postal Police had the same problems finding the address after all. I still don't see that car in the CCTV images as arriving. It is hoovering in front of the entrance for a full minute. It does not actually turn left. It only proves that they are still searching.

Furthermore, there is an awful lot of testimony that must be wrong for the clock is slow theory to fit. Maybe that happened. People can be mistaken. Maybe people also just walk to and from the cottage gate for no particular reason. I don't know. It doesn't seem very probable though.


Last edited by max on Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Today's news:

19 March 2015

A (female) juror (popular judge) of the appeals process against Amanda and Raffaele: "Few clues for a conviction"

FRONTE DEL BLOG

Sounds more like a Hellmann juror. She would certainly have been in the minority with Nencini :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Amanda Knox on the cover of the next week's issue of Newsweek:

Attachment:
Knox on the cover of Newsweek, 27 March 2015.jpg


Nina Burleigh for the Newsweek (she sounds more and more malicious):

Will Amanda Knox Be Dragged Back to Italy in Murder Case?
By Nina Burleigh

The scene in Perugia played out like a colorized version of that harrowing mob scene in Frankenstein—outraged villagers storming the castle to slay the monster who has been terrorizing them. But this bogeyman was a pretty American exchange student sometimes known as Foxy Knoxy, and the villagers were modern-day Italians whipped to a froth by tabloid headlines about resplendent Satanic rituals and depraved sex.


NEWSWEEK


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The Daily Mail version of the juror's interview:

DAILY MAIL
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Daniel Brühl on the Amanda Knox Case...

...Mr. Brühl is geared up for a busy spring that includes promoting “The Face of an Angel,” out March 27 in the U.K. and co-starring Kate Beckinsale and Cara Delevingne, and “Woman in Gold,” out April 10, with Helen Mirren and Ryan Reynolds.

“The Face of an Angel” is loosely based on the Amanda Knox case. Is it hard being involved in a project that people are so familiar with?

I was attracted to the role because I was always attracted by the case. I almost blamed myself for being so curious following it. That film is about finding out the truth, about journalism, about objectivity—and I find that part of the film very interesting. I was surprised to see how committed journalists can become. It is almost more than actors do when they play a part.

You’ve said you like to play characters that are very different from yourself.

A part that is very much like me would not attract me. In “The Face of an Angel,” I am happy to not be in such a dark place as the character. I am not a director...but he is from my world, so I do understand the problems he has.... I understand about failure in this profession and trying hard to make a new project and be successful again, and suffer from the pressure of people wanting you to do certain things you do not want to do.


THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Bottom line re the CCTV Cameras is they were introduced into the file by the defense when it was too late to be cross examined. Ergo, nothing exculpatory was found, and they are merely playing games.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Tomorrow night on Quarto Grado:

Quarto Grado (Fourth Degree), conducted by journalists Gianluigi Nuzzi and Alessandra Viero, airing Friday, March 20, 2015, at 21:15, on Channel 4

...the program ... explores the reasons for the sentence to Alberto Stasi for the murder of Chiara Poggi and, with unpublished documents, returns to the crime of Perugia: how the Supreme Court will decide on the fate of Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox?


WEBLOG

What could "unpublished documents" mean? Those "new" CCTV images?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Raffaele Sollecito will attend the Supreme Court hearing on the 25th:

March 19, 2015
Meredith Kercher murder
Raffaele Sollecito will be back in the courtroom: "To finally be heard"

Perugia - Back in the courtroom Raffaele Sollecito and his whole family to accompany him. The youth will participate in the hearing next Wednesday, March 25, of the Supreme Court, during which will be discussed the appeals of his lawyers and those of Amanda Knox against the convictions of two young people for the murder of Meredith Kercher.

"He [Raffaele] will be in the courtroom with me and all our family; and together we will await the decision of the judges,"said his father Francesco. "We hope - explained again Francesco Sollecito - to finally be heard."


IL SECOLO XIX

Is he [RS], too, "waiting to be heard"??? :mrgreen:
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I believe they are tossing smoke grenades every way and every place they can.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

This is all about the male, the images of Knox, all about the male, being objectified and presented not on the basis of factual matters, but on the looks on a face, for the benefit of the male, supported by brainless females who serve the male too, Knox the image that cannot be jailed for she is hump material, a face, with lips, and every time you get an article like that of Newsweek, they present her as some kind of movie star, as though it is or could be or should be right to ignore facts and look at her beauty instead, they've certainly done their best to make her look her best again. However, behind the eyes is a bunch of shit, as in shit person.
A liar, a fake, a nasty individual, one who will do anything to avoid telling the truth.
It is not her saying you cannot jail me, it is the hound dog backward males, who support the brainlessness in society, can't jail her she's pretty, murder, oh, well, pity, but, look, nice lips, bla bla bla. These press positioning acts are so pathetic, I really want to see Sollecito in jail doing his time with her out, oh dear, sparks are going to fly, at the moment the steel gates close behind him, and he knows he isn't getting out, we'll see just what a polite young gentleman he is. NOT.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:49 pm   Post subject: BRAINS BRAINS BRAINS   

OT:

OT: For the 'brainless' female fiction, it is all the Amandii who lack "brains", zorba :lol:

For them, sheep brains would be apropos, and they are quite a delicacy in Northern Pakistan.

Which reminds me of one of my favourite writers in the English language, PG Wodehouse, who had a lot of things to say about brains.

Seems that all of his books have at least one reference to brains, varied, usually referring to the effect of some woman or the other on the neurons of Bertram Wooster, Esq.

Other references: "And she's got brains enough for two, which is the exact quantity the girl who marries you will need."

"and that the only member of the household with brains and resources is Jeeves."

For Knox and Sollecito: "Chumps always make the best husbands. If you marry, Sally, grab a chump. Tap his forehead first and, if it rings solid, don’t hesitate. All the unhappy marriages come from the husbands having brains. What good are brains to a man? They only unsettle him."

So it seems that it is Sollecito who will, to the last, be the brainless chump.
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

zorba wrote:
This is all about the male, the images of Knox, all about the male, being objectified and presented not on the basis of factual matters, but on the looks on a face, for the benefit of the male, supported by brainless females who serve the male too, Knox the image that cannot be jailed for she is hump material, a face, with lips, and every time you get an article like that of Newsweek, they present her as some kind of movie star, as though it is or could be or should be right to ignore facts and look at her beauty instead, they've certainly done their best to make her look her best again. However, behind the eyes is a bunch of shit, as in shit person.
A liar, a fake, a nasty individual, one who will do anything to avoid telling the truth.
It is not her saying you cannot jail me, it is the hound dog backward males, who support the brainlessness in society, can't jail her she's pretty, murder, oh, well, pity, but, look, nice lips, bla bla bla. These press positioning acts are so pathetic, I really want to see Sollecito in jail doing his time with her out, oh dear, sparks are going to fly, at the moment the steel gates close behind him, and he knows he isn't getting out, we'll see just what a polite young gentleman he is. NOT.

Perhaps there is an desire to protect youth and beauty purely for instinctive reasons. That is attractive young symmetrical females may be considered to produce healthier offspring. We are after all driven by unconscious decisions and reactions not that different from the animal world. Playing up this aspect of Amanda and her stifled reproductive years might drive a certain portion of the male population into the white knight syndrome.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

What about the "white knights" (and maidens) who set out to save Raffaele Sollecito and Francesco Sforza? :)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

A little bit more detail on how the two defendants and their lawyers are preparing for the final appeal hearing:

Meredith Kercher murder: March 25, the Supreme Court, Sollecito will be in the courtroom

"Raffaele will be with me and his family," said the father, Francesco Sollecito. "The hope - he added - is to be able to assert our reasons [for appeal]."
...
The appointment at the Supreme Court on March 25 is therefore crucial for the future of the two young people. If in fact the fifth section were to uphold the judgment, Sollecito (for whom the Florentine judges have placed a ban on foreign travel) would be immediately arrested, while for Knox a complex procedure for extradition would begin.

The computer engineer is spending the last days that separate him from next Wednesday with his family. And is 'engaged in a number of job interviews'. "He's trying - said his father - to think as little as possible of that date. Although obviously there are fears in all of us." His defenders, lawyers Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori, are working on the final details of the defense strategy, based on 637 pages of the appeal and additional reasons [for appeal]. "We hope that the judges carefully read all the documents", limited himself to saying the lawyer Maori.

In constant telephone contact with their defendant are lawyers Luciano Ghirga and Carlo Dalla Vedova; Knox, meanwhile, keeps asking her lawyers technical details about the hearing of 25 March. "Worried and tense" describe her those who have heard her. Even for her, across an ocean, Wednesday will be a decisive day.


IL TIRRENO (TOSCANA)
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
What about the "white knights" (and maidens) who set out to save Raffaele Sollecito and Francesco Sforza? :)

True enough wasn't Candace taken with the Romeo Frank? Somehow I think RS might invoke the motherly protective response in some not mate material.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Will watch his eyes as Bongiorno starts shrieking and waving that knife about again, guermantes :)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Not sure how RS would qualify as 'mate material' at this stage, malvern. He writes how his sister's girl friend had thoughts of him waving that knife about and quit. But young women do not feel that way around him? OK.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:55 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Barbie Nadeau has written a new piece (on the Cassazione appeal and extradition) for the Daily Beast:

The Endless Trials of Amanda Knox: a Key Decision Approaches March 25
Can the convicted-acquitted-convicted murderer of British student Meredith Kercher be extradited from the United States? Maybe so. But no time soon.

By Barbie Latza Nadeau

...
Francesco Maresca, the lawyer for Kercher’s family, told The Daily Beast that he doesn’t know what to expect in next week’s hearing. “The high court wasn’t happy with the acquittal, but we won’t know if they will be satisfied with the way the new conviction was won until they rule,” he told The Daily Beast. “But in a murder case, if it goes back [to appeal] for a third time, it generally points to enough reasonable doubt to acquit them in the eyes of the court.”

But if the high court does confirm the conviction, it is the last word on the case. The doors slam shut. And Sollecito, who is in Italy, would likely be arrested quickly to begin his 25-year prison sentence.
...
There are several factors that cannot be considered when determining Knox’s legal rights. With double jeopardy off the table, Knox’s defense could have potentially argued that she was convicted in absentia, but Canestrini says that because Knox wrote a letter to the appellate court judge Alessandro Nencini during the trial explaining why she wasn’t there, she essentially acknowledged she was on trial. “Her lawyers should have never let her write that letter,” Canestrini says. “That email, read in court, means there is evidence of her awareness of the trial.” cl-)


THE DAILY BEAST
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:32 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Bit silly of Nadeau to say 'Endless' when the trials probably end next week. It is mostly about a possible lengthy extradition but nothing specific. Most arguments are already rejected by Canestrini. Some arguments are about delaying extradition but Knox will be in a US jail. So what. I like his sense of humor :)

Quote:
Other issues, like a pregnancy could also play a role. Canestrini says that she would be able to delay extradition three years for every child she might have based on current American standards for extradition. “But she would have to have a lot of babies to make that work long-term,” he said.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

From the Daily Beast article:

"After handing down the ruling, whatever it may be, the high court will have between 45 and 60 days to issue its written reasoning for their decision. If the convictions are upheld, Canestrini says the case will then go to Italy’s justice ministry, which will be informed that an American citizen owes Italy a prison sentence."

That referral will not take place 45-60 days after. I received a written confirmation of the Supreme Court ruling and conviction one hour after the March 26, 2013 ruling. That one page ruling is confirmation of a conviction and enough to trigger the extradition process. Nor do I see Sollecito being arrested in the court room and the Italian Foreign Minister taking his sweet all time to get moving.

As to a pregnancy, all joking aside, no, I don't think that will be an option for Knox. Or a baby daddy willing to look after kid for 28 years :)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
What about the "white knights" (and maidens) who set out to save Raffaele Sollecito and Francesco Sforza? :)


With your help several of the maidens made very classy withdrawals. Well done to them. Burleigh's monomania may be explained in a new book soon. Dempsey, Pruitt.. weird. Kinky maybe?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Il Giornale (where Vittorio Feltri had been an editor-in-chief in 1994-1997 and then again in 2009-2010) is reporting today the following:

Perugia, check the evidence that exonerates Sollecito

Wednesday new hearing at the Supreme Court, but the lawyers want to show that at the time of the crime the young man was in front of his PC

Over seven years of trials, where the only one with a final conviction is Rudy Guede, while the other two accused of the murder, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, were convicted before, then acquitted on appeal and ultimately convicted again in the second degree after the reopening of the case by the Supreme Court.

And the case will land at the Supreme Court again on March 25, when the Supreme Court will discuss the appeals filed by the lawyers of the two. Amanda Knox will not participate in the hearing, back in the US after the first appellate ruling, while there will be Raffaele Sollecito, who has decided to change his defense strategy.

Contrary to the usual practice, in fact, the defense of the Apulian would like to present to the judges a new test that would prove conclusively his innocence. This would be an expertise (report) on his PC which would demonstrate that at the time of the crime on his laptop was started the Japanese anime "Naruto".


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Offline max


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
The Daily Mail version of the juror's interview:

DAILY MAIL

The article makes it sound she was against the verdict, but the coded title of the page (and the url) says something different..."Juror who helped convict Amanda Knox...". So she must have voted guilty after all. Oh well...Daily Mail.. :roll:
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Offline LUFC1972


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Starting to get a bit nervous now. Hoping for strong, clear ruling and reasoning.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Caught Jackie's comment on ORG "that short, fat, ugly, red-nosed, ruddy-faced, santa-beared bastard they call 'the best decision they ever made'."

If you look at Knox's latest pictures, she's getting there, Jackie, though I don't think she's 'the best decision they ever made' ;)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi Ergon, loved your matter-of-fact reply to Joseph Bishop in comments to Barbie's article :)

JosephBishop 17 hours ago
Quote:
This is what happens when a travel and dining columnist is allowed to write about real news. Shame on you Britain.

ManFromAtlan 16 hours ago
Quote:
@JosephBishop The Daily Beast is an American publication.

Has Joe just woken up from a deep slumber? Where has he been all this time? Living on the Moon? :)
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sallyoo wrote:
There's a pro Sollecito piece in Settimanale Gialla, written by Albina Perri (the same journalist who hung a story on the vileness of the followers of Knox) a year/some months ago. I'll have a look at a print copy tomorrow.


Thanks for the heads up, Sallyoo. I checked the Cairo Editore website for a preview. Here it is:

Giallo Anno III - N. 12 - 25 Marzo 2015

http://www.cairoeditore.it/index.php?option=com_flippingbook&book_id=2935&Itemid=83

A teaser on the magazine's cover says: "Sollecito trembles, may end up in prison for 25 years"

A full story is on p.48: "Sollecito risks 25 years. In view of the Supreme Court, the defense insists:

Sollecito has nothing to do [with the murder] and innocent. Salvatelo (Save [him?])"

You can leaf through the 4-page preview and enlarge its pages by using a "magnifying glass"
feature.

Here's the link to an old article by Albina Perri: viewtopic.php?p=122536#p122536
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Caught Jackie's comment on ORG "that short, fat, ugly, red-nosed, ruddy-faced, santa-beared bastard they call 'the best decision they ever made'."

If you look at Knox's latest pictures, she's getting there, Jackie, though I don't think she's 'the best decision they ever made' ;)


LOL

I hope knox knows I was referring to her morally repugnant PR man, not her!

For the record, I think knox cleans up nicely, it's just that the whole 'unrepentant, racist, lying, knife-murderer thing' really takes away from it.

Plus she's nowhere near as lovely as Cape, which reminds me, I hope Cape is following along and counting the HOURS:

Image


Last edited by Jackie on Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:38 pm   Post subject: Who shames whom?   

guermantes wrote:
Hi Ergon, loved your matter-of-fact reply to Joseph Bishop in comments to Barbie's article :)

JosephBishop 17 hours ago
Quote:
This is what happens when a travel and dining columnist is allowed to write about real news. Shame on you Britain.
...


Joseph:
Image

Britain:
Image


Last edited by Jackie on Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thanks, guermantes. I think Joe's just a little punch drunk.

And I echo Jackie's call to see Cape aladin and absent friends here again soon.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

And speaking of Her Majesty's loyal subjects, where's Michael today? Have you seen this?

Underhill wrote:
I mentioned on the forum that I had written to Philip Hammond, the Foreign Secretary, about the case, but had had no reply. Yesterday, I did get a reply, on his behalf, from the North America Department of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. As expected, it was a "diplomatic" reply but, amongst other things, it did say:

"If the Italian authorities were to make an extradition request to the US Government, we would expect that it would be considered in accordance with US laws."

---------------------------------------------------

Have you and yours tried Hammond's office?
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Italian criminologist Roberta Bruzzone has predicted a conviction for Amanda but possibly something different for RS. I guess Amanda's own admission to being at the cottage and the rest of it points to her guilt but the clasp is the only real thing tying RS. Can this be a real possibility? Will the court accept two perps not three?
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:36 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

malvern wrote:
Italian criminologist Roberta Bruzzone has predicted a conviction for Amanda but possibly something different for RS. I guess Amanda's own admission to being at the cottage and the rest of it points to her guilt but the clasp is the only real thing tying RS. Can this be a real possibility? Will the court accept two perps not three?


It is my understanding that, in addition to the 16 loci match to the clasp trace, they also have:

1) anatomical compatibility (to the point of probable identity) with the bloody footprint on the bathmat;

2) anatomical compatibility (to the point of probable identity) with a luminol print in the hallway; &

3) a veritable laundry list of damning (in aggregate) circumstantial evidence ranging from lies to police during interrogation and computer logs, to phone records and an eyewitness.

How many times can the same guy get hit by lightning?!

If he's just 'unlucky', he's very nearly as "jinxed" as Robert Durst claims to be!

Accordingly, it seems it might have been better for RS to claim he was only an accessory after the fact rather than an accomplice to rape and murder (i.e., that he touched the clasp and left the prints only in the course of assisting in the staging).

Depending on the jurisdiction and the fact pattern, sentences for accessory can be quite light - even lighter than the time he's already served. Then again, they can also be stiffer than what he's already served.

Of course, that option would have brought eternal shame to his name and his high status family. I suppose that, along with their apparent arrogance, money and influence, is one of the reasons they're going for broke.

It's going to be absolutely fascinating to watch this thing play out.

FWIW, I'm trying to steel myself for an unexpected result - any system that turns on the presumption of innocence, the right to silence, the difficult to meet BARD standard, and highly restrictive rules of evidence, is a system that, BY DESIGN, will occasionally allow guilty people to walk free in the name of extreme caution, lest an innocent be punished.

If AK & RS are convicted despite the playing field being slanted so heavily in favor of acquittal, it says a lot.


Last edited by Jackie on Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:36 am   Post subject: THE GUARDIAN, AGAIN   

Nicky Woolf's article for The Guardian is out and its quite good, actually, except for the part about 'retrial' and 'being found guilty again of murder': Amanda Knox Legal Battle

Amanda Knox ruling by Italy's highest court could lead to new legal battle
Stephanie Kirchgaessner in Rome and Nicky Woolf in Seattle

Friday 20 March 2015 18.32 GMT

Um, wasn't "Col Scott" supposed to be in Seattle for Comic Con? :)
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jackie wrote:
malvern wrote:
Italian criminologist Roberta Bruzzone has predicted a conviction for Amanda but possibly something different for RS. I guess Amanda's own admission to being at the cottage and the rest of it points to her guilt but the clasp is the only real thing tying RS. Can this be a real possibility? Will the court accept two perps not three?


It is my understanding that, in addition to the 16 loci match to the clasp trace, they also have:

1) anatomical compatibility (to the point of probable identity) with the bloody footprint on the bathmat;

2) anatomical compatibility (to the point of probable identity) with a luminol print in the hallway; &

3) a veritable laundry list of damning (in aggregate) circumstantial evidence ranging from lies to police during interrogation and computer logs, to phone records and an eyewitness.

How many times can the same guy get hit by lightning?!

If he's just 'unlucky', he's very nearly as "jinxed" as Robert Durst claims to be!

Accordingly, it seems it might have been better for RS to claim he was only an accessory after the fact rather than an accomplice to rape and murder (i.e., that he touched the clasp and left the prints only in the course of assisting in the staging).

Depending on the jurisdiction and the fact pattern, sentences for accessory can be quite light - even lighter than the time he's already served. Then again, they can also be stiffer than what he's already served.

Of course, that option would have brought eternal shame to his name and his high status family. I suppose that, along with their apparent arrogance, money and influence, is one of the reasons they're going for broke.

It's going to be absolutely fascinating to watch this thing play out.

So worth a try from the perspective of Bongiorno. I'm intrigued by his new defense because it is so enjoyable to watch him go out of his way to discredit Amanda.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

malvern wrote:
Italian criminologist Roberta Bruzzone has predicted a conviction for Amanda but possibly something different for RS. I guess Amanda's own admission to being at the cottage and the rest of it points to her guilt but the clasp is the only real thing tying RS. Can this be a real possibility? Will the court accept two perps not three?


Thanks malvern. Who else was present in the studio tonight?

There are 3 short video clips on the Quarto Grado website. Sollecito (interviewed by Remo Croci) doesn't look well.

http://www.video.mediaset.it/programma/ ... ideo.shtml

I'll post a summary of what he said a little later. Obviously nothing new, the guy's boring, he just keeps on saying the same things again and again.
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I read it on cri_magnani 's twitter. She had a photo of a section of a print interview including comments from Bruzzone and another lawyer.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:25 am   Post subject: DRIP DRIP DRIP   

The Sollecitos have been drip drip dripping these rumours of some sort of deal in the offing. A sending back to the Appeals Court for him, conviction for Knox. A lesser sentence for him, but not for her.

They really are living in la la land.

5 more days to Cassazione.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:31 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Any news on this? Postponed I suppose?

Barbie Latza Nadeau ‏@BLNadeau Mar 19
Prelimin hearing Mar20 for #amandaknox on her allegations that cops abused her.Separate to murder hearing in front of high court Mar25.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Quarto Grado, March 20, 2015

Attachment:
Sollecito on Quarto Grado - 20 March 2015.jpg


Five days before the judgment of the Supreme Court - which must rule on the appeal process which convicted Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox for the murder of Meredith Kercher - the engineer from Puglia speaks to "Fourth Degree", interviewed by Remo Croci:

    "I have been living in this situation for eight years. Not to attend the hearing would be like hiding in a corner in case of tsunami: you take it head-on. So we might as well face it and see what will become of my life. I made my choices and I have nothing to reproach myself for. I'm just looking at what others decide. Because I, together with my family and lawyers, we put our heart(s) and soul(s) into it (meaning: his defense). And we expect only to be heard."

He continues:

    "Honestly I’ve somewhat let go communicating with Amanda ... because this entire story is tearing me up inside."

The situation that he has lived for eight years has turned out to be profound:

    "I’ve got no life, I haven't had one for over eight years ... it's been eight years... Motives have been changed, facts, alleged or real, badly interpreted, or distorted... There was everything and more. After all this, I wonder when will I know what will become of my life. Does my life have any value in all this? There isn’t a [single] element, in all the documents or investigations, which could somehow explain an incident, in a time frame, when I go to the crime scene and participate in an obscenity (meaning: murder) like that."

About the new level of judgment that awaits him he says:

    "My mind cannot come to grips with me being back in there. But obviously I'm trying to tackle this problem as best I can as a conscious and rational person: I have no other choice than to face this situation head on."

When the journalist makes an observation about the fact that, if convicted, his would be the worst position, because he is in Italy and the measure would take effect immediately, Raffaele Sollecito replies:

    "That's the least of my problems. And frankly I'm not thinking of others. In fact, I didn’t know Rudi (sic) Guede. I had been with Amanda for 5 days. I'm only preoccupied with the facts [of the case] and with my life. I don’t decide and will never decide the fate of others."

He concludes:

    "Meredith has always been in my thoughts. Especially her family, who are suffering, and I hope with all my heart that everyone understands what are the real facts ... how things are ... so they can understand and really give justice to a foolish debate that is so absurd."

CRIMEBLOG (ITALY)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:42 am   Post subject: FOR MEREDITH   

r-(( Meredith Kercher, RIP r-((


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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:17 am   Post subject: Ball of Confusion   

guermantes wrote:
Quarto Grado, March 20, 2015

Attachment:
Sollecito on Quarto Grado - 20 March 2015.jpg


Five days before the judgment of the Supreme Court - which must rule on the appeal process which convicted Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox for the murder of Meredith Kercher - the engineer from Puglia speaks to "Fourth Degree", interviewed by Remo Croci:

    "I have been living in this situation for eight years. Not to attend the hearing would be like hiding in a corner in case of tsunami: you take it head-on. So we might as well face it and see what will become of my life. I made my choices and I have nothing to reproach myself for. I'm just looking at what others decide. Because I, together with my family and lawyers, we put our heart(s) and soul(s) into it (meaning: his defense). And we expect only to be heard."

He continues:

    "Honestly I’ve somewhat let go communicating with Amanda ... because this entire story is tearing me up inside."

The situation that he has lived for eight years has turned out to be profound:

    "I’ve got no life, I haven't had one for over eight years ... it's been eight years... Motives have been changed, facts, alleged or real, badly interpreted, or distorted... There was everything and more. After all this, I wonder when I will know what will become of my life. Does my life have any value in all this? There isn’t a [single] element, in all the documents or investigations, which could somehow explain an incident, in a time frame, when I go to the crime scene and participate in an obscenity (meaning: murder) like that."

About the new level of judgment that awaits him he says:

    "My mind cannot come to grips with me being back in there. But obviously I'm trying to tackle this problem as best I can as a conscious and rational person: I have no other choice than to face this situation head on."

When the journalist makes an observation about the fact that, if convicted, his would be the worst position, because he is in Italy and the measure would take effect immediately, Raffaele Sollecito replies:

    "That's the least of my problems. And frankly I'm not thinking of others. In fact, I didn’t know Rudi (sic) Guede. I had been with Amanda for 5 days. I'm only preoccupied with the facts [of the case] and with my life. I don’t decide and will never decide the fate of others."

He concludes:

    "Meredith has always been in my thoughts. Especially her family, who are suffering, and I hope with all my heart that everyone understands what are the real facts ... how things are ... so they can understand and really give justice to a foolish debate that is so absurd."

CRIMEBLOG (ITALY)



Thank you for that, guermantes!

RS gives AK a run for her money when it comes to consistently generating phrases that raise more questions than they answer.

IMHO, the innocent seek to establish clarity, because there is nothing to hide, while the guilty tend to speak in riddles and/or create confusion.

Filomena's door was closed; no, it was open; wait...it was slightly ajar; she went out from 9pm to 1am; no, she never left; wait...she was out in the evening but not the night; I can't speak to the evening or the late night period before dawn, only a period in between - whaaaaaaaaaaat T F?

I'm invoking my right to silence before trial; I'm invoking my right to silence during trial; i'm invoking my right to silence for each of my appeals; but now I want to tell the world that I was always ready and willing to answer any and all questions from the prosecutors and judges - whaaaaaaaaaaaat T F?!
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Watching yesterday's episode of Quarto Grado right now:

http://www.video.mediaset.it/video/quarto_grado/full/puntata-del-20-marzo_523726.html

The part about Sollecito is at the end (starts @ 2 hrs 05 min) and lasts only 20 minutes.

Roberta Bruzzone wasn't there; two 'avvocatesse' commented on the case.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

21 March 2015
Amanda, 'positive thoughts' for Raffaele

Despite the latest events that tore them apart, Amanda Knox has "positive thouthts" for Raffaele Sollecito. She told her lawyers, Luciano Ghirga and Carlo Dalla Vedova, who spoke with her via Skype and discussed final details ahead of the hearing at the Supreme Court. In the last few days, Amanda appeared tense and worried: If the Supreme Court were in fact to uphold her conviction, an extradition process may be initiated.


ANSA(UMBRIA)

Well, he isn't thinking about HER; he only cares about himself. Sorry Amanda.

Raffaele Sollecito wrote:
And frankly I'm not thinking of others. [...] I'm only preoccupied with the facts [of the case] and with my life. [...]"
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Offline elisa


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
malvern wrote:
Italian criminologist Roberta Bruzzone has predicted a conviction for Amanda but possibly something different for RS. I guess Amanda's own admission to being at the cottage and the rest of it points to her guilt but the clasp is the only real thing tying RS. Can this be a real possibility? Will the court accept two perps not three?


Thanks malvern. Who else was present in the studio tonight?

There are 3 short video clips on the Quarto Grado website. Sollecito (interviewed by Remo Croci) doesn't look well.

http://www.video.mediaset.it/programma/ ... ideo.shtml

I'll post a summary of what he said a little later. Obviously nothing new, the guy's boring, he just keeps on saying the same things again and again.


Hello, yes, Stabby Boy repeats and repeats and repeats himself - but this is maybe the clever strategy - hearing the same over a long period, people will maybe belive partly what he says, just because hearing it so many times again and again. Also, I am afraid that after he will get jailed and AK not yet, Stabby will get sympathy and more credibility that the more guilty part is Knox and not him and that he sits in the mess because of "honour bound". I am sure, he makes these interviews according to the advoces of his defence and some PR.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Did the blushing bride bop herself in the nose with those boots on Valentine's Day?



She looks positively deranged ... and someone should tell her that not only did Doc Martins go out in the 80s, but they've been positively uncool since manufacturing was transferred to China.
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:16 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

This isn't over for either of them for a long, long time.

"Under Italian law, that decision ([found guilty]) will not be considered final unless and until it is upheld by the court of cassation in its ruling this week, which could come as soon as Wednesday. That is why Knox has been able to live freely in the US, even though she is currently considered guilty of murder in Italy. Sollecito is also free in Italy right now, but would be arrested immediately if the conviction were upheld.

If it does not uphold the conviction, the court could also decide to send one or both defendants back to trial, but it does not have the power to acquit Knox or Sollecito outright."

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... gal-battle
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Apparently Sollecito no longer believes that Knox was tortured for days prior to voluntarily stating that she was present during the murder. I would like one of the interviewers to ask Sollecito why he told the lie about Meredith having dinner at his apartment.

"The court’s latest conviction relied on a written confession Knox made – and then later retracted – after being questioned by police, in which she said she had been in the house when the murder occurred but not participated in the crime, and that her boyfriend was not there. A third man, an Ivorian named Rudy Guede, was also convicted of murdering Kercher in 2008 after a fast-track trial. He has almost served half of his 16-year sentence. Although Sollecito has long maintained that both he and his former lover are innocent, his defence will now rely on the truthfulness of a confession that Knox has said was made under duress."

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... gal-battle
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Image
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jackie wrote:
Three days and counting


Even if it's back to another trial, it's okay. This time Sollecito will emphasize the voluntary statement of Knox whereby she places herself at the scene of the murder at the time of the murder. Patrick will again come forward to point out that the vixon has not compensated him in her conviction for implicating him in a murder, Guede will again claim that he cannot state that the couple were not there, and Knox can only allege that although she volunteered that she was present at the time of the murder, she was illogicaly "coerced" (with imaginings) to make the voluntary statement. Another trial cannot result in an acquittal for Knox. Sollecito has a better chance, given that he has always said that he cannot state that Knox did not leave his apartment on the night of the murder. The problem with his innocence is his written statement that Meredith had supper at his house in response to his knowledge that Meredith's DNA was on his kitchen knife. That screams guilt. There's no reason for him to give that statement at that time except to attempt to distance himself from a murder where he was involved. He was still hoping to be let out of jail at the end of the week ... hoping that Knox could keep her cool, and offering untruths to explain evidence of murder.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:55 am   Post subject: JUSTICE FOR MEREDITH   

r-(( Meredith Kercher, RIP r-((


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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:56 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Three of four works just fine with me.

We won't forget.

Knox and Sollecito should suffer for what they did to Meredith in their drunken, drugged up deranged night of debauchery. For them, it was a forgettable night on drugs. For Meredith's family, it's a lifetime of loss.
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I'm as jittery as the next guy as we get nearer, but so far, I can't really see why Cassation would overturn Nencini's court. There may be some minor errors but overall the reasoning seems compelling enough and certainly doesn't display the flawed reasoning that Hellman's court did. Cassation were also utterly scathing wrt Hellman's reasoning.
While admittedly somewhat nervous, overall I reckon Cassation will uphold.

@Ergon. Looks like Woolf sensibly decided to give Mimoo a miss. :mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:26 pm   Post subject: JUSTICE FOR MEREDITH   

r-(( Meredith Kercher, RIP r-((


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The Sunday Times thinks 'millions of Americans' will be concerned about "Foxy Knoxy's" extradition. (Three thousand signed a petition to the State Department :)
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi guermantes Sara achille has posted a new quarto grado clip on RS's Facebook. Basically a case to say RS wasn't there but guess who probably was with Guede... Lots of shady shots of Amanda pointing out her statements , footprints , shower story etc, even refers to cctv shot. RS liked the post!!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Lots of nasty shit being posted by Sollecito supporters on the Net. Rumours of secret deals all in their fevered imaginations.

I share the hope that Sollecito (and Guede) might one day spill the beans. I doubt that will happen though. He knows he will be convicted and hopes by appearing in court and facing the music he will at least come out of prison while still young.

The last minute attempts by his supporters to pin the blame on Amanda and imply she and Guede were the culprits and he merely helped in the clean up won’t impress Cassazione.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Another lame, uniformed interview, given by Sollecito to Erika Pontini and published on the Quotidiano.Net website today:

Sollecito and the nightmare of prison. "I'll be in the courtroom, I’m not running away"
By Erika Pontini

Wednesday the Supreme Court. "I'll look the judges in the face, I did not kill Mez." "I know that I will be arrested if convicted, but I prefer to think that I will be acquitted." "Amanda? Only friendship, each rebuilds his/her life independently of the other."

Perugia, 22 March 2015 - "With Amanda? Simple relations of friendship, in which each tries to rebuild his/her life independently of the other." The ocean separates them but justice instead wants them united. For better or for worse. In an acquittal or a conviction for killing her English friend Mez. Three days before a verdict, perhaps without appeal, Raffaele Sollecito is in Bisceglie. And his thoughts go back and forth to these eight interminable years. His soul in turmoil, mixed with fear of seeing prison gates reopen before him.

You have repeatedly said: 'Eight years of life destroyed' and now, in view of what could be the last judgment, if you look back, what do you see?

"Eight years, four of which in prison, in which I desperately tried to prove my absolute strangeness to the death of poor Meredith. During this time (outside of prison) I have tried in every possible way to move forward: I managed to graduate, to complete the course of study that allowed me to get a degree in computer engineering, I qualified as a professional and ... yes, I'm looking for work."

You said you will be in the courtroom for the Supreme Court hearing on Wednesday. What drives you to attend?

"I'll be there because it makes no sense that I stay at home, while they decide my fate. I prefer to face the situation head on, because I have nothing to hide and be ashamed of."

You dedicated a thought to Meredith and her family that "must have justice," but they [the Kercher family] also want justice.

"What happened to Meredith is horrible. A tragic story and I understand that the family wants justice, but I want it too. "

What should the judges do?

"Cancel the judgment of Florence (which convicted Raffaele to 25 years and Amanda to 28 years and half - note) without referral."

You ended up in jail and were sentenced thanks to a story involving a girl you met recently; another suspect, Rudy, said he did not know the victim, either, and that he had seen Meredith very few times in his life ...

"I ended up in it for an imprint of a shoe that did not belong to me and that had been attributed, without a shadow of a doubt by forensic [experts] to Rudy Guede. I repeat once again: I did not know the poor Meredith. I met her, yes, just because a few days prior [to the murder] I had been to Amanda’s home, but I did not have any reason, even an imaginary one, to do such a horrible thing to a person against whom I had nothing, much less help others do it. I guarantee that if I had the opportunity to be present, I would have done anything to prevent it."

You have nothing to reproach yourself for?

"No, absolutely not. I am a good person, I belong to a respectable family, I've never hurt anyone in my life, I will never do so. I am happy to be as I am, and proud of the name I bear. All the people who have known me or who have had the opportunity to know me can confirm this."

If they [the judges] do not accept your appeal, you will be arrested. What it means to go back to prison?

"I prefer to think that, once again, as happened in Perugia, I will be acquitted."

If your thesis of innocence were shared by the judges, would it change your life?

"I’ll finally go back to being a man and master of my life, although with certain rights and responsibilities, but also desires, those of a normal person. But I would continue to do what I'm already trying to do: find a job, think of a home and a family. "

Why is your defense no longer united with Amanda's?

"Look, it never was. The only time I had been heard by a judge [Matteini - ndr], rather than avail myself of the right not to respond, I had spoken and I had stated my total strangeness to this tragedy with which I have nothing to do. Besides, even Amanda, both when she was heard in court, and when she wrote the so-called memorial, had always made reference only and only to herself and never said that I was with her when she imagined the facts and things for which she was judged.”


http://www.quotidiano.net/sollecito-meredith-perugia-esclusivo-1.782865
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

malvern wrote:
Hi guermantes Sara achille has posted a new quarto grado clip on RS's Facebook. Basically a case to say RS wasn't there but guess who probably was with Guede... Lots of shady shots of Amanda pointing out her statements , footprints , shower story etc, even refers to cctv shot. RS liked the post!!


Thanks a lot, malvern! I'll check it out.

ETA: Could you please post a direct link to his aunt's post? By clicking on FB links on his Twitter I keep getting this message "Sorry, this page isn't available." :?: Thanks in advance. :)
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Offline The Machine


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

@thetimes: Meredith Kercher family seeks extradition from US for Amanda Knox https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/579687610609733634

Please tweet and retweet. Thanks.

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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Here, guermantes. https://www.facebook.com/raffa.sollecito?pnref=story 2nd post down.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thanks, but your link doesn't work, The Machine. The Times tries to sell a subscription "to see the full article".

Here's the correct link: https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/579687610609733634 which I RT'd and faved :)
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:45 pm   Post subject: KERCHERS CALL FOR EXTRADITION KNOX   

The Times
Tom Kington Rome


http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/worl ... d=13051465

Published at 4:03PM, March 22 2015

"Amanda Knox must be extradited from the US if her conviction for murdering Meredith Kercher is upheld by Italy’s supreme court on Wednesday, Kercher’s family have urged.

“Meredith’s family hope that the sentence is upheld and the law is carried out to its fullest extent,” said Francesco Maresca, a lawyer representing the family. “If that means extradition for Knox, that’s what they want.”
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:

thanks Ergon, this clip contains all the points or possibilities which implicate AK. So if the court needs a second accomplice its not RS but could have been Amanda. I guess the gloves are off , RS likes this clip, what will Bill say now?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:16 pm   Post subject: Time to RUN!!!!!!!!!!   

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

A few excepts from a piece, written by Francesca Marruco for Umbria24.

In the first part of her article, she repeats the myth, propagated by Nina Burleigh in the Newsweek, that Knox will not be extradited:

Francesca Marruco wrote:
According to a Newsweek article, the Supreme Court will confirm the sentence of Florence and make Amanda Knox "a fugitive." Also according to the magazine, Italian and American diplomats expect that any extradition request will be rejected. However her lawyers, beginning with Robert Barnett, are working to avoid this possibility [of her extradition?].


The second part is more informative:

Changing the classification "The Court [of Florence] - write Luca Maori and Giulia Bongiorno - has not even considered the possibility of changing classification in a hypothesis of less serious contribution/involvemnt of Sollecito." "And in fact, if the weak motive of solidarity could not rationally explain the escalation of violence, which led to the death of Meredith Kercher, this motive could instead support (in theory) the hypothesis of aiding his then-girlfriend. Which is not to say that is was so, but only to point out that the latter case is rather more likely when we compare it with the suggested motive outlined by the Court of Florence."

No effort The defense of Amanda, Carlo Dalla Vedova and Luciano Ghirga, instead write that "in the contested judgment there is never a research or evaluation of assumptions different from the guilt of Knox. No effort or arguments took place on this matter. The Court of Appeal held back on examination of whether there are any alternative solutions/scenarios." For Knox's lawyers, the Court of Florence, whose judgment they are asking to cancel, "actually made a selective choice of clues and evidence, neglecting those of different or opposite value."

Grave errors "Solutions contrary to the guilt of Knox - specify her lawyers - were not examined in the presence of strong counter-arguments presented by the defense, and the acquittal of the Court of Assizes of Perugia." Knox's lawyers, in 118 pages, filed to the Supreme Court, are asking "the Court to rectify the serious miscarriage of justice that has been inflicted by the previous court{s}, so as to allow the accused Amanda Marie Knox to resume a normal and constructive life”.


UMBRIA24
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I don't think Reverend Screech's disappeared from ISF quite yet, Jackie and malvern. Still there today at 6958 comments. Far more than me, but then, alcohol consumption affects critical thinking while not impacting garrulousness :)
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Offline Brogan


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
The Sunday Times thinks 'millions of Americans' will be concerned about "Foxy Knoxy's" extradition. (Three thousand signed a petition to the State Department :)


Three thousand signatures doesn’t mean three thousand people, some people signed multiple times so the real figure is a lot less.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:47 pm   Post subject: MORE SHAMEFUL ATTACKS ON THE KERCHERS   

The attacks on the Kerchers and their lawyer Francesco Maresca have intensified after today's Sunday Times article.

The odoriferous Cristina Magnani first unblocked me to say Call of the loon
Quote:
Cristina Magnani
‏@cri_magnani @Jackcassazione @peterdgill @manfromatlan @AngelaMicali1 Why yr website TMOMK is under investigation?

Then It's all about the money
Quote:
Ritengo le dichiarazioni di Maresca vergognose. I soldi valgono più della verità. Questo è un oltraggio a #MeredithKercher
I believe the statements of Maresca are shameful. The money is worth more than the truth. This is an outrage to #MeredithKercher

(CC to and from Aunt Sara and Mauri Muschi, Sollecito family and defense team)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:35 am   Post subject: Re: MORE SHAMEFUL ATTACKS ON THE KERCHERS   

Ergon wrote:
The attacks on the Kerchers and their lawyer Francesco Maresca have intensified after today's Sunday Times article.

The odoriferous Cristina Magnani first unblocked me to say Call of the loon
Quote:
Cristina Magnani
‏@cri_magnani @Jackcassazione @peterdgill @manfromatlan @AngelaMicali1 Why yr website TMOMK is under investigation?

Then It's all about the money
Quote:
Ritengo le dichiarazioni di Maresca vergognose. I soldi valgono più della verità. Questo è un oltraggio a #MeredithKercher
I believe the statements of Maresca are shameful. The money is worth more than the truth. This is an outrage to #MeredithKercher

(CC to and from Aunt Sara and Mauri Muschi, Sollecito family and defense team)


Mauri Muschi and Cristina Magnani are in overdrive at the moment. They tried to intimidate me after I mentioned how the court appointed experts Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti approached the Sollecitos in court to shake hands.

Cristina Magnani sends Mauri Muschi instructions over Twitter to print my relevant tweets, presumably for legal action.

Their reaction suggest they too think this behaviour was improper.

Watch minute 42:17.



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Andrea Vogt's latest article mentions Amanda Knox has hired a major law firm in case an extradition request is made by Italy.

Quote:
While U.S. pundits have loudly asserted that Knox would never be extradited, Knox’s own defense lawyers seem less certain, and in fact have already begun developing a two-pronged defense aimed at preventing extradition in coordination with Italian speaking legal eagles at a high-profile U.S. law firm known for its political savvy. More on that if and when it becomes relevant. The Kercher family is also preparing to push for extradition if the convictions are confirmed, their lawyer has said.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:48 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

A rather humorous take on Amanda's possible pregnancy, by 'Romolo Ricapito' :)

Will Knox get pregnant to avoid jail? As [Sophia] Loren in "Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow"

Amanda Knox and possible pregnancy to avoid extradition if convicted.

[...]

For the (English) Guardian, to avoid extradition (which I personally think is unlikely), Knox would have only one way, to get pregnant.

The news is spreading even in Italy, where there is concern for the Apulian Raffaele Sollecito: if found guilty again, according to the Supreme Court, he would be immediately arrested. Not so his former girlfriend Knox, who now lives in the US on a permanent basis.

Maybe Amanda really has “protected” herself with a child by her boyfriend Colin Sutherland, peer and former classmate?

And then, after the child? Who knows, Amanda Knox could imitate Sophia Loren in the film Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow, where she portrayed a real-life character, Adelina, a woman selling black-market cigarettes, who, in order to avoid a jail sentence, got indefinitely pregnant .... avoiding prison each time with a medical certificate.

In fact the character (that existed in real life) had 19 pregnancies.

Amanda Knox will follow an example of the character portrayed in De Sica's masterpiece?

Nineteen pregnancies, however, seem a bit too much, even for a girl as "tough" as Amanda!


LIBERO (BLOG)

Attachment:
Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow.jpg


Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow (1963)

Plot Summary on IMDb


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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:08 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

max wrote:
Any news on this? Postponed I suppose?

Barbie Latza Nadeau ‏@BLNadeau Mar 19
Prelimin hearing Mar20 for #amandaknox on her allegations that cops abused her.Separate to murder hearing in front of high court Mar25.

"In another legal blow for Knox, a Florence judge earlier this week ruled there was enough evidence to request Knox stand trial on separate charges of continuous aggravated calumny. Though unreported by mainstream media, these additional charges have been simmering quietly in preliminary hearings for months until Friday, when “rinvio di giudizio” was granted and the first trial hearing date was set for June 9 in Florence. While Knox already has one definitive calumny conviction for accusing Congolese pub owner Patrick Lumumba, these latest charges stem from her continued allegations of police abuse and coercion, both on the stand and outside of court, in her memoir and in public appearances."
http://thefreelancedesk.com/amanda-knox ... cher-case/
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thank you Ergon for fixing the embedded video in my post!
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:27 am   Post subject: THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND EXTRADITION OF AMANDA KNOX   

Did the State Department Offer Assurances To Amanda Knox She Never Would Be Extradited? Part I

Will Amanda Knox Be Dragged Back to Italy in Murder Case?
By Nina Burleigh / March 19, 2015 8:07 AM EDT
http://www.newsweek.com/2015/03/27/will ... 14970.html

A State Department source tells Newsweek that diplomats in both Italy and the U.S. expect an extradition request to be denied: “I don’t think either Italy or the U.S. wants a major burr under our saddle in terms of relationships between our countries, and this would be that, if the Italians pushed it.” If they do, the source adds, there “is not any way” the U.S. will arrest Knox, nor will it have her declared a fugitive.

The elected Italian government in Rome is separate from the judiciary, and traditionally the two branches do not have warm relations. “I know the Italian government was rolling its eyes” over the prospect of the case reaching this phase, the State Department source says, adding that Rome faces “a real political problem” if the judiciary requests extradition.

The American diplomat predicts the Italian court won’t ask to extradite.”

It seems that ever since Amanda Knox was wrongfully acquitted by the Hellmann appeals court of Perugia in 2011 we have been inundated with unsourced reports that “the United States would never extradite Amanda Knox”.

Going back several years to the Daily Mail, Guardian, The Express and various American media, they all seemed to be reading from the same script:
- She hadn’t received a fair trial.
- American public opinion would ‘never allow her to be sent back’.
- The Secretary of State would quietly prevail upon his counterpart in Italy to not request extradition.

And, as the final appeal of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito came up to the last stretch it seemed that these same hacks were repeating the same talking points, even though much has changed since 2011.

These were the basic points, reported over and over in the main stream media till it almost seemed like a guarantee. So I have been looking for the last three years to verify the truth of that. And, who made that promise, if any were made? These were the basic parameters of my search, and I had to tune out the background noise of ‘double jeopardy’ and ‘dueling extradition experts’.

Then I had to look for the ‘unnamed source’ quoted in all the news reports.

These possibilities came up:
- WA US Senator Maria Cantwell spoke to her colleague Sen. John Kerry of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee who spoke to his brother in law David Thorne, US Ambassador to Rome, who passed on a quiet message to the Italian Foreign minister. But would they ever speak on or off the record to reporters or like it very much if it was going to be bruited about?
- Mid-level Friends Of Amanda Knox like Anne Bremner and Judge Heavey had received vague assurances from Senator Cantwell; somehow extrapolated as iron clad guarantee that Knox would never be extradited, never mind there has not been any precedent I can find that would apply to a similar case like this.
- Someone in the Department of Justice and/ or State is feeding them shite.
- The FOA are making it all up. That last was my favourite, given that they are led around by people like Steve Moore, Bruce Fischer, and J. Michael Scadron.

Still, it has been an interesting journey, and as always, things seem to just come together at the last moment.

Background: My father was in the Pakistani Foreign Service stationed in London, so, shortly after I was born, lived in the UK from age 0-3, then with the Pakistan Embassy in Tokyo from age 3-8. We were a cosmopolitan group of embassy brats going to St. Mary’s International School. My friends were American, Iranian, Turk, Indian, East German, Canadian, New Zealand, points all over. Their parents were all diplomats and I made lifelong friends. My father could have received a posting as assistant to the ambassador to Washington D.C. after that but fate prevailed as he’d been stationed out 8 years and had to be rotated back to Pakistan.

Since that time I kept in touch with my friends and also developed this passion for International Relations and Geopolitics. Travelling to the US and other countries but also meeting over the internet, made many more friends at various levels of the State Department. Saw the changes there as respected career diplomats got replaced by interest groups and major donors to political parties. Such only went to choice postings, of course, but not second or third world countries, so I had many interesting discussions with them over the years.

Investigation: The Wikileaks cables were a revelation as Embassy intercepts showed the thousand different ways diplomacy led to but also tried to prevent, war. I’d been reading them ever since they first came out so started searching for links to secret discussions with Amb. Thorne. Couldn’t find anything except what already was reported, so reporter Andrea Vogt’s FOI request find was quite revealing:
http://thefreelancedesk.com/u-s-embassy ... d-in-2011/

NEWLY RELEASED EMBASSY CABLES SHED LIGHT ON STATE DEPT HANDLING OF AMANDA KNOX CASE
By Andrea Vogt
FEBRUARY 13 “Newly released state department documents show the U.S. Embassy in Rome declared the Amanda Knox matter “Case Closed” in a cable to Washington just days after the American’s clamorous 2011 acquittal. The memo reveals wishful thinking on the part of some U.S. diplomats, who were only too eager to see the thorny case come to a clean close.”

This unfortunately is being used by both sides as proof, much exaggerated by conspiracy theorists that the fix is in. The truth is a lot more complex.

(Conclusion, Part II to be continued tonight)


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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thanks for your investigative work, Ergon. Looking forward to Part II.
-----------------------------
Andrea Vogt wrote:
While he [Raffaele Sollecito] may attend the hearing for his defense arguments, it is not expected that he will remain for the decision.


http://thefreelancedesk.com/amanda-knox-trials-meredith-kercher-case/

That's more likely. I don't think he's got the guts to be present in court during pronouncement of the judgement.

By the way, he'd be wise to take with him to the hearing a small suitcase with a change of underwear and socks, pajamas and slippers, a toothbrush/paste, soap, and other hygiene necessities, just in case he goes back to jail. ;)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Popper posted this on .org on Sunday:

Post by Popper » 22 Mar 2015, 08:16
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewto ... 41#p183941
-------------------------------

I was told by someone going to the hearing that Supreme Court will start at 10 am Rome time. Most people following the case will be there at Palazzaccio at 9 to 9:30 to enter the audience box.

As you may know there should be an introduction from the relator judge [relatore, reporting judge, lead reviewer, Bruno Paolo Antonio], then general procurator to Cassazione, then all defense lawyers from Sollecito and Knox and civil party lawyers for Lumumba and Kercher family. Follows decision probably for the evening, especially if the Court has other cases in agenda for the same day. In some cases decision is the following morning. Time for each session is however limited, lawyers cannot go on forever.

Once verdict is read, should conviction be confirmed, their guilt becomes final and district prosecutor can immediately issue the arrest warrant.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Rudy Guede is back in the news (*shudder*); his lawyers' untiring efforts on his behalf are nothing short of impressive, but why do they have to keep reminding us of his fate, just days before a pivotal court date? It couldn't just be a coincidence, could it?

Meredith murder, Rudy Guede ready to go back to liberty

The only definitely convicted, for now, Rudy Guede, may soon return to liberty. As of 20th February, he has served half the sentence of 17 years and 5 months. And now he is eligible to ask for (special) permits [that would allow him to spend time outside of prison].

In fact Rudy Guede is authorized by law to take advantage of special permits for a total of 40 days in a year. In the coming days he could make a request to the supervising judge of Viterbo. "We have not yet made any request", told La Nazione one of his defenders, Nicodemo Gentile. "Also because Rudy is studying. The missing two exams and then the thesis for a bachelor's degree in history."

Serving half of the sentence is necessary [to be able] to access permits in a murder case. According to Guede's lawyer, there is no reason for the court not to grant a permission given that the behavior of the detained is considered to be "flawless".


http://www.affaritaliani.it/cronache/om ... 59992.html

17 years 5 months = 16 years (for complicity in murder) + 1 year 5 months (for possession of stolen goods)?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Edward McCall and the TMOMK wiki get special mention in this AP story: pp-(

Italian Court Readies To Rule On Amanda Knox Appeal
By Colleen Barry

HUFFINGTON POST
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The Daily Mail have published an article today which is apparently based on an interview with Amanda Knox supporter Dr. Mark Waterbury and ex-FBI agent-for-hire Jim Clemente.

Waterbury seems to hope extradition will be denied because he thinks Amanda Knox did not get a fair trial. Further Waterbury confirms in the article to have spoken to some of Amanda Knox's family members who told him they are absolutely certain Knox will not be extradited by the U.S.

Two fun facts:

- The article shows a photo of Amanda Knox holding hands with James Terrano and states he is a childhood friend and that the couple is engaged.

- Dr. Waterbury mentions how broad Knox's network of supporters is and that most of Seattle is strongly behind her. That's funny, considering Seattle has over 600,000 residents and the number of Amanda Knox supporters worldwide amounts to approximately 800 people according to the latest change.org online petition, before they started signing up to 6 times each when her low numbers of supporters were mocked online. The petition is now at 4,000, that's less than 1% from Seattle residents, let alone the U.S.

Quote:
It's my understanding that people who are working with the family believe that the ruling will come from facts based on the 'judicial truth' from Rudy's trial where they said there must have been multiple attackers. This fact can't be contested.

'This is like someone down your street being tried for a crime, but they decide to convict you afterwards because that person claimed you were involved and you can't even defend yourself.
'It makes no sense and just wouldn't happen in the UK or US. It is truly astounding. One more round to go in this crazy justice system. I don't have a good feeling about this.

'There have been bizarre facts, research that makes no sense, and witnesses that have been dug up from the gutter.'

'I know the prosecutors are doing everything to wreck her life, they have done everything to destroy her, constantly leaking one wild theory after another. If you don't convict her, try and try again.'

Dr Waterbury says that he told the family he predicted a guilty verdict and said they were accepting of that decision, but confident that she wouldn't be extradited.

'The prosecutors are absolutely desperate that Amanda is made guilty, independent of facts. Amanda was in wrong place at the wrong time, she had no involvement in the thing, they happened to find the body, happened to be the roommate of someone murdered.

'But I predicted this, and told a couple of Amanda's family members that I expected this to happen. The US-Italy have had bad blood for years, history of legal battles.

'They [the family] didn't react too bad to it, but never thought it would last all this time. It's been an ordeal for them. Amanda is never, ever going to be extradited and they are absolutely certain about that. But it's different for Raffaele and I know they care deeply for his wellbeing.

'This would be tremendously difficult for a fully grown person, but she was a kid. To go through this - four years in a prison for a crime you didn't commit. They have taken these people and sacrificed them. It's a brute exercise of power.'

But Dr Waterbury did say that the family, independent of the result, had the full support of the community in Seattle where he's a teacher at the local college.
'She's very much a normal young person. I've met Amanda, her family, friends, former boyfriend, and all in very challenging circumstances. When you meet people in such circumstances, you learn a lot more about their characters. Those are very good people, people who have strong values, loving, salt of the earth, ordinary people,' he said.

'In this area, she especially has very broad support, support of friends and family. If she did not have their support, she'd be in a very, very dark place. She has a deep well of supporters. Most of Seattle is strongly behind her.'
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:34 am   Post subject: #J4MK   

r-(( Justice for Meredith Kercher, RIP r-((


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:56 am   Post subject: THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND EXTRADITION OF AMANDA KNOX   

Who Is The State Department Source? Part II Conclusion

(cont’d from Part I “Did the State Department Offer Assurances To Amanda Knox She Never Would Be Extradited?”)

As noted in the previous article, there is a sameness in all the news reports of secret State Department agreements and assurances made to save Amanda Knox from extradition.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/565 ... her-murder

US officials: Amanda Knox will never go back to Italian jail
AMANDA KNOX will never be extradited from America, even if an Italian court this week upholds her conviction for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher, according to US sources.
By Paul Thompson
Sun, Mar 22, 2015
“Lawyers for Knox, 28, are confident she will remain free even if Italy asks for her to be sent back to resume a 28-year jail sentence.
US State Department sources say the uncertainty of the case against Knox means they will not agree to any extradition request.
Knox also has a huge amount of public sympathy in the US where she is seen as a victim of a miscarriage of justice by a foreign court.
A source at the State Department said: “There is a feeling that the whole case is flawed and that a US citizen should not have to go to jail because of that. If there is an extradition request from Italy it will be denied.”

This question, who is the state department source, (Burleigh says ‘American diplomat’) came up in my previous post.
- Ambassador David Thorne?
- Some low level employee at State or Justice?
- Completely made up by Anne Bremner and co?
So I reached out to my sources and this is what they told me, for background only.

They considered it extremely unlikely that Ambassador Thorne or any one in Rome would pass on such assurances to Anne Bremner or even the likes of Nina Burleigh. While they could not confirm whether high level talks had taken place they did point out that John Kerry, as Secretary of State would respond differently than when he was in the Senate and pointed to his statement “he would do his duty”.

And Italy had a new government and foreign secretary, so the latest news reports seemed entirely made up. That State and Justice had been following the case quite closely and they were not going to risk offense to Italy for this case. Not to say they hadn’t been nervous when Knox went back to the US and got such heavy hitters in the media go to bat for her, but, also duly noted that public support for her was really paper thin.

This left either a made up story or some low level civil servant speaking out of turn with personal opinion … we know that The FOA lie, but also, they sometimes seize on a wisp of rumour, or some ‘source’ whose importance they tend to er, exaggerate 

We know about retired Justice Department lawyer J. Michael Scadron who’s been saying State and DOJ would never allow extradition. There’s even a photo of him at the Vashon Island gathering, in all his fan boy glory. But another person showed up on my radar.

Investigation: I’m so tired of debating with the kooks, but when some members asked me to help them out on a closed Facebook Page (275 members) Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito Roundtable https://www.facebook.com/groups/522655077869664/ which was run and overrun by FOA I joined to help out. It turned out one of the admins was a State Department employee called James Moninger https://www.facebook.com/james.moninger.58 who is indeed, a ‘diplomat’, working out of State in Hawaii. His Facebook friends are the entirety of the FOA it would seem, and he is an active member and admin of several other pro Knox groups. Quite the fan boy too, it seems.

He hemmed and hawed about my inclusion but within the course of a few hours I was bounced out of the group twice.

He wrote to me:

Naseer,
“I am writing to confirm that I removed you from the Amanda Knox Roundtable group. This was my decision, and I have advised the other administrators accordingly.
Earlier in the day I received a plea from one of the group members who claimed that you have harassed her in the past and contacted her employer. I have no opinions on this issue, but as site owner I am unwilling to take on a potentially significant liability.
Please don't feel that this action was in any way predicated on the opinions you expressed in the forum.”
James Moninger

Attachment:
James II copy.jpg


My reply:
Hi, James,
“It's your group and you're welcome to do as you wish. That you didn’t give a chance to respond to the (false) allegation is par for the course and no loss for me. As you know, I have far bigger platforms to present my views; it was YOUR group that invited me to participate in the first place.

I already know the source of that slander from other forums and will respond appropriately.

You should also know I’d contacted the State Department previously concerning the Daily Mail and Express articles that “sources in the State Department” have said “Amanda Knox will never be extradited to Italy”.

Imagine my surprise to see you are the owner of this pro-Knox debate site, and membership in several others, which you have every right to. However, since your bio says you are a State Dept. employee, and your rather lengthy list of friends and followers have been actively advocating that Knox would never be extradited, with all sorts of references to internal department sources it is my responsibility to ask for comment:
1. Have you in any way told them the State Department would deny an extradition request?
2. Have you advised the Amanda Knox campaign in any way how to lobby the State Department or how it would respond to an extradition request?
3. Please explain the following comment on the Amanda Knox blog: February 7, 2014 at 20:38 http://www.amandaknox.com/2014/02/02/1216/

“Concerns about this case would more appropriately be directed to the US Department of State; not to Congress. There is little or nothing the legislative branch of the government can do to affect treaties that are already in place. (Senate hearings, etc. are not the way the federal process works.) Using profanity with senior members of Congress can never be helpful.

I am hopeful that the State Department is watching this case carefully and is prepared to choose the correct path, whatever that may eventually entail, to protect a US citizen from any further violations of human and legal rights.”

Are you, as a State Department employee, stating that Amanda Knox’s human and legal rights were violated? In a G7 country? Would you like to retract it?
I will be writing my story in 48 hours or so. Please reply at your earliest”.
Naseer Ahmad

He never replied, and it’s been a while though he did agree with someone else who called us “haters” 

Conclusion: I will end with this. PMF/TJMK member Odysseus wrote to UK Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond, expressing his concerns. He got a reply from the North America Department of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office:

"If the Italian authorities were to make an extradition request to the US Government, we would expect that it would be considered in accordance with US laws."

Funny sort of a coincidence, but. I sent a list of questions three days ago to the Kerchers through an intermediary. Q. 4 was “Will they call for extradition Amanda Knox if she’s convicted?”

I know they haven’t received it yet, but, in The Times http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/a ... 390091.ece

Kercher family say Knox must be extradited
Tom Kington Rome
March 23 2015
“Amanda Knox must be extradited from the US if her conviction for murdering Meredith Kercher is upheld by Italy’s supreme court this week, the family of the British student have urged.”
“Meredith’s family hope that the sentence is upheld and the law is carried out to its fullest extent,” said Francesco Maresca, a lawyer representing the family. “If that means extradition for Knox, that’s what they want.”


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:07 am   Post subject: DoS Needs to Know   

Ergon wrote:
Who Is The State Department Source? Part II Conclusion

... on a closed Facebook Page (275 members) Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito Roundtable https://www.facebook.com/groups/522655077869664/ which was run and overrun by FOA I joined to help out.

It turned out one of the admins was a State Department employee called James Moninger https://www.facebook.com/james.moninger.58 who is indeed, a ‘diplomat’, working out of State in Hawaii.

His Facebook friends are the entirety of the FOA it would seem, and he is an active member and admin of several other pro Knox groups. Quite the fan boy too, it seems.


...
Imagine my surprise to see you are the owner of this pro-Knox debate site, and membership in several others, which you have every right to.

However, since your bio says you are a State Dept. employee, and your rather lengthy list of friends and followers have been actively advocating that Knox would never be extradited, with all sorts of references to internal department sources it is my responsibility to ask for comment:

1. Have you in any way told them the State Department would deny an extradition request?
2. Have you advised the Amanda Knox campaign in any way how to lobby the State Department or how it would respond to an extradition request?
3. Please explain the following comment on the Amanda Knox blog: February 7, 2014 at 20:38 http://www.amandaknox.com/2014/02/02/1216/

“Concerns about this case would more appropriately be directed to the US Department of State; not to Congress. There is little or nothing the legislative branch of the government can do to affect treaties that are already in place. (Senate hearings, etc. are not the way the federal process works.) Using profanity with senior members of Congress can never be helpful.

I am hopeful that the State Department is watching this case carefully and is prepared to choose the correct path, whatever that may eventually entail, to protect a US citizen from any further violations of human and legal rights.”

Are you, as a State Department employee, stating that Amanda Knox’s human and legal rights were violated? In a G7 country? Would you like to retract it?
I will be writing my story in 48 hours or so. Please reply at your earliest”.
Naseer Ahmad

He never replied, and it’s been a while though he did agree with someone else who called us “haters” ...



VERY, VERY interesting, Ergon!

If this is information is correct, the matter needs to be brought to the attention of the Department of State.

I want to know whether DoS is aware that someone in their Department may be speaking on behalf of the US government to Newsweek on a matter that could adversely affect relations with an important ally and trading partner.

Who's running the show?! Kerry or some Knox-loving twit on an outpost?!

If my suspicions are correct, 2 things may have happened:

1) A government employee has intentionally expressed a personal opinion as if it were being made in his capacity as a representative or agent of the US government in the hope that it would be perceived by Italian officials as an indication of the US government's yet to be announced official position re the extradition of knox; &

2) At least 2 reporters represented the statement as if it had been made in the government employee's capacity as a representative or agent of the US government despite clear and relatively easy to uncover indications that the employee in question was likely to have been involved with knox's 'support group'/ grassroots campaign in a personal/ non-governmental capacity for an extended period of time prior to making the statement and ought, therefore, to have considered the employee as potentially biased and/or untrustworthy the point where confirmation was necessary before publishing the statement as coming from a "diplomat" rather than from a concerned citizen in his private/ personal capacity.

DoS needs to be contacted.

Newsweek needs to be contacted.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:38 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
I don't think Reverend Screech's disappeared from ISF quite yet, Jackie and malvern. Still there today at 6958 comments. Far more than me, but then, alcohol consumption affects critical thinking while not impacting garrulousness :)



Something's going on there. He's got about 6000 posts on IIP, another 6000 or so on ISF, and that's within just over 2.5 years.

He's at it 24/7. IIRC, the poor bastard was even posting just before midnight on New Year's Eve.

I think this is going to be a tough week for him.

Whichever way it goes, I hope the court chooses the right result for the right reasons.


Last edited by Jackie on Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jackie, I wrestled with this for months. Sent him a DM December 07 asking for comment. A simple denial he was the source would have sufficed. I warned him I would publish, as you can see. He chose not to reply. In the mean time his friends were attacking me personally all over the net and he bans me on their say so I was 'harassing' them?

For the record, I left open the possibility it was the FOA making up stuff based on proximity to a 'diplomat'. But, his comment on her blog was er, undiplomatic. His posting to all and sundry on those pages that he worked for State was foolish.

But as soon as all these false reports showed up again, I had to act. It is now up to him to deny it, and I will be happy to publish his response.

The fact remains that the media has published rumours the fix is in. We will keep an eye open for THAT.

Justice For Meredith Kercher!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:49 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Jackie, I wrestled with this for months. Sent him a DM December 07 asking for comment. A simple denial he was the source would have sufficed. I warned him I would publish, as you can see. He chose not to reply. In the mean time his friends were attacking me personally all over the net and he bans me on their say so I was 'harassing' them?

For the record, I left open the possibility it was the FOA making up stuff based on proximity to a 'diplomat'. But, his comment on her blog was er, undiplomatic. His posting to all and sundry on those pages that he worked for State was foolish.

But as soon as all these false reports showed up again, I had to act. It is now up to him to deny it, and I will be happy to publish his response.


Right, well, if there's nothing to it, then there's nothing to it.

But if your information is correct, it deserves a closer look. The DoS needs to be made aware of potential problems.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I feel a bit sorry for people like him. We have seen it a few times now. All they do is blow themselves up. They don't need any help doing it either. They do it all by themselves. I just hope he didn't use his departments letterhead. Lets see what tomorrow will bring :)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Those rumours ARE out there, Jackie. Will the Secretary of State honour the extradition request if one is received? We shall see.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

It's been 7 years and we're only about 4 hours away from starting the 24 hour countdown to the start of proceedings, yet Michael is nowhere to be seen!

I still remember how, back in 07/08 while searching for more news on the case, I accidentally discovered posts by Michael, Skep and FlyBy on something called Haloscan that really opened my eyes to what was going on behind the scenes (Mellas, "Sfarzo", Dempsey, Marriott, etc.).

I quietly watched the group's discussion for years before daring to comment on PMF. I wasn't sure what to make of anyone back then, and I initially thought the Italian cops were on the wrong track, but Michael and the gang really impressed me with their knowledge, theories and analysis.

Over time I came to see that Knox's people were giving me lies ("no evidence", "DNA matches half of Italy", "the knife was thrown out of evidence", "53 hours of nonstop interrogation", she "never laid eyes on" Rudy, etc., etc.) and the Haloscan/PMF peeps were not.

Here's hoping you're well, Michael.
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Offline Jackie


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Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:38 am

Posts: 904

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Is it just me or is James Moninger's FB page unavailable to all?

If it's down, why is it down?

When was the last time you saw it up and running, Ergon?
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Offline zinnia


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Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:57 am

Posts: 56

Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Edward McCall and the TMOMK wiki get special mention in this AP story: pp-(

Italian Court Readies To Rule On Amanda Knox Appeal
By Colleen Barry

HUFFINGTON POST


Thanks SO much, McCall. Your efforts and dedication to Meredith are BEYOND awesome! th-)
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Offline Pelerine


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Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:19 pm

Posts: 414

Highscores: 2

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:08 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jackie wrote:
Is it just me or is James Moninger's FB page unavailable to all?

If it's down, why is it down?

When was the last time you saw it up and running, Ergon?



I can see his FB Page, but no mention at all about his workplace, let alone the US. DoS .... hmm wh-)

_________________
r-(( Rest in Peace Meredith Kercher r-((
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Offline Kristeva


Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:22 am

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hello everyone,
I'd like to let the forum know that I have created a twitter account @KristevaPMF to live tweet from the Court of Cassation tomorrow. I also want to thank Ergon for having provided me with a press pass and given me this unique opportunity. May justice prevail for Meredith Kercher and her amazing family.
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Offline Ergon

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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:20 pm

Posts: 7193

Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Three days ago, Jackie :) Good thing I figured how to screen shot.
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Offline Ergon

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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:20 pm

Posts: 7193

Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Kristeva wrote:
Hello everyone,
I'd like to let the forum know that I have created a twitter account @KristevaPMF to live tweet from the Court of Cassation tomorrow. I also want to thank Ergon for having provided me with a press pass and given me this unique opportunity. May justice prevail for Meredith Kercher and her amazing family.


Thanks for letting us all know, Kristeva, and, you're welcome. Looking forward to your impressions of the court.
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Offline Nell

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Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:38 pm

Posts: 5041

Images: 0

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:56 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thank you Ergon for your revelation about James Moninger and his possible role in the spreading of the, most probably false, rumour about the State Department refusing to extradite Amanda Knox.

I agree with Jackie that this should be brought to the State Department's attention. If true, this is reminiscent of what Heavey did, addressing the court in Italy using his official letterhead.
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Offline Ergon

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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:20 pm

Posts: 7193

Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thanks, Nell. We should remind people that Amanda Knox supporters lawyer Anne Bremner and Judge Heavey both assured us the Secretary of State would NEVER extradite Amanda Knox.

Were they lying? Was the media mistaken in accepting their assurances at face value? Or did they actually verify their sources?

I should point out I wrote to the Express and Daily Mail as well as the State Department when these reports first came out. Never received a response to my written requests. The fact remains that even the perception, propagated by the media that there is a secret deal to protect Amanda Knox, is harmful to the cause of justice.

And, the work of the State Department.
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