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XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30, 13 - JULY 31, 14

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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Meredith murder, the prosecutor: 'False Alibi: Amanda and Raffaele were on the scene of the crime'
Prosecutor Crini: 'The Supreme Court has leveled the judgment of acquittal. Trust the witness that places them in the Grimana Square'

IL MESSAGGERO (UMBRIA)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 5m
Crini: the court saw Aviello, shows what top of unreliability is; the SC suspected so unreliable that calunnia elements had to be assessed

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 2m
Curatolo did not confuse night with Halloween, because it was big party in piazza the previous night, and because it did not rain

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Curatolo saw a couple discussing and this memory is very specific, peculiar
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
Hey, is it 9 o'clock, or 8 o'clock?
~ in Florence.

What's the weather like?
Is everyone still sleeping?



Somehow the board's time/clock is incorrect, CTU + 1 hour means it is now 11:24 not 12:24, so the board is showing CTU + 2 hours which is Athens, Greece time, etc.

It is now 11:25 in Florence, if I'm not mistaken, my post will show the time as being an hour later.


Actually, your post time is clocked to my post time, so I see the time that you posted local time
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:08 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Sollecito gave computer alibi days later, and words his statement in the singular form


Is the Sollecito distancing himself from Knox?



Think this is referring to what he did back in 2007 Jester

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
Hey, is it 9 o'clock, or 8 o'clock?
~ in Florence.

What's the weather like?
Is everyone still sleeping?



Somehow the board's time/clock is incorrect, CTU + 1 hour means it is now 11:24 not 12:24, so the board is showing CTU + 2 hours which is Athens, Greece time, etc.

It is now 11:25 in Florence, if I'm not mistaken, my post will show the time as being an hour later.


Actually, your post time is clocked to my post time, so I see the time that you posted local time


So what time is it now whereyou are and what time do you see, specifically speaking?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The Assize Court of Appeal of Florence should not repeat the mistake of the Court of Perugia

"The Assize Court of Appeal of Florence should not repeat the mistake of the Court of Perugia made ​​in the method, which atomized elements presented by the prosecution, instead of joining separate elements, thus losing 'the big picture framework of circumstantial evidence.'" This was stated by Deputy Attorney General Alessandro Crini in the indictment at the trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher before the Court of Assizes of Florence.


FOCUS ITALY
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 6m
Meredith process, PM Crini: "The story of the homeless Curatolo is very precise and contradicts Sollecito's alibi"
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 3m
Crini: Curatolo is no 'super-witness', but can contribute helping the court to draw their scenario

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 28s
Crini starts fourth theme: timings. Says they are very vague, except tow truck

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 5s
Crini: timeline is marginal to the case. All unproven timings to be taken cautiously.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 44s
Crini: Do not overestimate importance of timings that are not anchored accurately or cannot be proven
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:31 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 6m
#amandaknox appeal prosecutor Crini in Florence: don't repeat error of Perugia appeal. Consider evidence wholly, including Curatolo.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:42 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

For your convenience: here's the link to today's posts on previous page (p.8):

viewtopic.php?p=115157#p115157
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 6m
Crini accepts both alternatives on time of death, after 23.15 or before 22.30 (but seems to prefer the earlier one)

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 19m
Meredith trial, Prosector Crini: From the mobile phone records of the victim the crime is placed around 22.13.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   



Image
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 2m
Crini: fifth argument is Quintavalle. He says he is sure about his testimony. Is a different kind of witness

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Wants to deal with the issue of the fact that he came forward late, urged by an acquaintance

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
It is incorrect to dismiss a witness a priori because late. But for reasons totally different. Sometimes late is symptom of reliability.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 12m
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini speaks of the testimony Quintavalle, the merchant with a store near Sollecito's house

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 4m
Meredith process, Crini : Quintavalle is certain that Amanda was in front of his shop in the morning after the murder
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

This is much more serious than the Hellman luncheon.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Crini: it is unlikely that Quintavalle got it wrong. Because of contextual elements.

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 1m
Meredith process, Crini: "Quintavalle disproves that Knox said she was in bed until 10 in the morning before he saw her"

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Quintavalle, details of his testimony and woman's description are exceptional indicators of accuracy.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

This is much more serious than the Hellman luncheon.

Lunch time?

Like the direction the case is taking.


Last edited by Jester on Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I like these.
"Crini about Curatolo, describes P. Grimana; as an habitual presence of the piazza, proven reliable in other cases"
"Crini: many trials could not exist if drug addicted testimonies were dismissed"

"Proven reliable in other cases." Has any of these groupies ever even looked at these other cases before they declared Curatolo a witness for hire (and a bunch of other stuff)? I think not.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

max wrote:
I like these.
"Crini about Curatolo, describes P. Grimana; as an habitual presence of the piazza, proven reliable in other cases"
"Crini: many trials could not exist if drug addicted testimonies were dismissed"

"Proven reliable in other cases." Has any of these groupies ever even looked at these other cases before they declared Curatolo a witness for hire (and a bunch of other stuff)? I think not.


Is Curatilo the heroin addict or the homelss man?
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
max wrote:
I like these.
"Crini about Curatolo, describes P. Grimana; as an habitual presence of the piazza, proven reliable in other cases"
"Crini: many trials could not exist if drug addicted testimonies were dismissed"

"Proven reliable in other cases." Has any of these groupies ever even looked at these other cases before they declared Curatolo a witness for hire (and a bunch of other stuff)? I think not.

Is Curatilo the heroin addict or the homelss man?

Both. Sometimes I forget he is dead. RIP.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 10m
Meredith process, the hearing was adjourned for a break
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

max wrote:
Jester wrote:
max wrote:
I like these.
"Crini about Curatolo, describes P. Grimana; as an habitual presence of the piazza, proven reliable in other cases"
"Crini: many trials could not exist if drug addicted testimonies were dismissed"

"Proven reliable in other cases." Has any of these groupies ever even looked at these other cases before they declared Curatolo a witness for hire (and a bunch of other stuff)? I think not.

Is Curatilo the heroin addict or the homelss man?

Both. Sometimes I forget he is dead. RIP.


He had more dignity, alive or dead, than any of the Knombies.

Antonio Curatolo, RIP.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 4m
At Crini's side in #amandaknox appeal today is veteran Florentine prosecutor Tindari Baglione. Before this, he was in Cassazione.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Quintavalle and Curatolo both appeared as late witnesses. Police had not located them earlier, save for journalist. Case breakthrough, and they are major witnesses. This court will accept their testimony, since the Supreme Court already has.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Board slow. Save your post before submitting. If error message, refresh, and your post might still appear, then hit submit again.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

max wrote:
I like these.
"Crini about Curatolo, describes P. Grimana; as an habitual presence of the piazza, proven reliable in other cases"
"Crini: many trials could not exist if drug addicted testimonies were dismissed"

"Proven reliable in other cases." Has any of these groupies ever even looked at these other cases before they declared Curatolo a witness for hire (and a bunch of other stuff)? I think not.


Curatolo is unreliable, drug addled Knox and Sollecito not?
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Offline Jester


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

max wrote:
Jester wrote:
max wrote:
I like these.
"Crini about Curatolo, describes P. Grimana; as an habitual presence of the piazza, proven reliable in other cases"
"Crini: many trials could not exist if drug addicted testimonies were dismissed"

"Proven reliable in other cases." Has any of these groupies ever even looked at these other cases before they declared Curatolo a witness for hire (and a bunch of other stuff)? I think not.

Is Curatilo the heroin addict or the homelss man?

Both. Sometimes I forget he is dead. RIP.


Curatilo, a homeless heroin addict that lived in a cardboard box in the park, who took drugs like heroin if they were accessable, is no longer alive,but his testimony is preserved and respected.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Sollecito's comment on Prosecutor General's indictment:

"Allegations approximate and uncertain", was the first comment of Sollecito at the end of the indictment. "After all this time - he continued - I have to continue to deal with the situation of repeated accusations that have no basis in reality." Sollecito said that the allegations of today come "after several years of nightmare."


LA REPUBBLICA
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Antonio Curatolo spoke up and for that, yes I respect him. I also would respect every homeless heroin addict, living in a 'cardboard shack' or not, because of their humanity. But then, maybe that's just me.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:


Image


Daddy Sollecito wore suit and tie to Cassazione hearing. Sweater him and junior at Florence? Bad impression.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
max wrote:
Jester wrote:
max wrote:
I like these.
"Crini about Curatolo, describes P. Grimana; as an habitual presence of the piazza, proven reliable in other cases"
"Crini: many trials could not exist if drug addicted testimonies were dismissed"

"Proven reliable in other cases." Has any of these groupies ever even looked at these other cases before they declared Curatolo a witness for hire (and a bunch of other stuff)? I think not.

Is Curatilo the heroin addict or the homelss man?

Both. Sometimes I forget he is dead. RIP.


Homeless heroin addict that lived in a cardboard box in the park, homeless man that took drugs like heroin if they were accessable. He is no longer alive and his testimony is respected?



Jester where did you get this about him living in a cardboard box?
I never heard that.

On him, one should never adopt ideas about who people are and what their value is, as in, a heroin addict ALL BAD and totally worthless, that is not real, I have known all kinds of addicts, addicted to all kinds of things, including a wide range of substances and/or alcohol, and they are never the same, even though heroin will dictate a person's life to that person, still people have different personalities underneath. The word junkie for instance, is a terrible way to talk about people, as it is ignorant, it is throwing them in the trash can, which is very unkind, they are sick people.

Now about this witness, the reason why he is valid, as much and perhaps at one level even more than every day people, is because a man such as he, obviously not a nasty type, just homeless and addicted, was not involved in the every day pursuits, which are invariously all linked to EGO, and go-getting, such a person is entirely divorced from such matters and would have even less reasons than ordinary people to tell lies, as it was of no value to him AT ALL, and that is WHY he is important, he had absolutely no reason to say untrue things about the pair, whereas others, functioning within daily life, could well have had reasons to tell lies, because people are tied up in all kinds of mind games, we've seen this online where persons totally unconnected to this case would and do get online and talk such nonsense, totally disregarding the things that happened to Meredith, yes there are many cruel people running around. What motives could a man like him, not even young, have for saying anything, his being disconnected means he is even more reliable than most others? he had no motives and had to be persuaded to tell what he knew, he had no desire to get involved.

It was Candace Dempsey who attempted to cast this man into the realm of a non-human being, her cold and wicked way of describing him as ''park bench'' was all part of that ploy.

The man had no reason in the world to say anything other than what he knew, he was not involved in the worldly pursuits, not even village pursuits, all as he was, WAS, he did nothing other than exist and that's why his testimony is very valuable.
This is the thinking behind the prosecution's case for bringing his evidence in.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Jester wrote:
max wrote:
Jester wrote:
max wrote:
I like these.
"Crini about Curatolo, describes P. Grimana; as an habitual presence of the piazza, proven reliable in other cases"
"Crini: many trials could not exist if drug addicted testimonies were dismissed"

"Proven reliable in other cases." Has any of these groupies ever even looked at these other cases before they declared Curatolo a witness for hire (and a bunch of other stuff)? I think not.

Is Curatilo the heroin addict or the homelss man?

Both. Sometimes I forget he is dead. RIP.


Homeless heroin addict that lived in a cardboard box in the park, homeless man that took drugs like heroin if they were accessable. He is no longer alive and his testimony is respected?



Jester where did you get this about him living in a cardboard box?
I never heard that.

On him, one should never adopt ideas about who people are and what their value is, as in, a heroin addict ALL BAD and totally worthless, that is not real, I have known all kinds of addicts, addicted to all kinds of things, including a wide range of substances and/or alcohol, and they are never the same, even though heroin will dictate a person's life to that person, still people have different personalities underneath. The word junkie for instance, is a terrible way to talk about people, as it is ignorant, it is throwing them in the trash can, which is very unkind, they are sick people.

Now about this witness, the reason why he is valid, as much and perhaps at one level even more than every day people, is because a man such as he, obviously not a nasty type, just homeless and addicted, was not involved in the every day pursuits, which are invariously all linked to EGO, and go getting, such a person is entirely divorced from such matters an would have even less reasons than ordinary people to tell lies, as it was of no value to him AT ALL, and that is WHY he is important, he had absolutely no reason to say untrue things about the pair, whereas others, functioning within daily life, could well have had reasons to tell lies, because people are tied up in all kinds of mind games, we've seen this online where person's totally unconnected would and do get online and talk such nonsense, totally disregarding the things that happened to Meredith, yes there are many cruel people running around. What motives could a man like him, not even young, have for saying anything? he had no motives and had to be persuaded to tell what he knew, he had no desire to get involved.

It was Candace Dempsey who attempted to cast this man into the realm of a non-human being, her cold and wicked way of describing him as ''park bench'' was all part of that ploy.

The man had no reason in the world to say anything other than what he knew, he was not involved in the worldly pursuits, not even village pursuits, all as he was, WAS, he did nothing other than exist and that's why his testimony is very valuable.
This is the thinking behind the prosecution's case for bringing his evidence in.


And Candace Dempsey was channeling Frank Sfarzo throughout her book. His blog Perugia Shock attacked him way before her book came out.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Yes dad and son have gone for the twinned look, in identical shirts and pullovers.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I tried changing my board time, it is stuck on this incorrect time.

Present time in Florence = 14:25

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Twitter feed for Machiavelli
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:

And Candace Dempsey was channeling Frank Sfarzo throughout her book. His blog Perugia Shock attacked him way before her book came out.


Yes but not a day after Meredith was murdered she latched onto the case, having her non-visited cake blog already, and she started saying nasty things like that. Indeed, she was seen to be flirting with the inter-continental person abuser, but maybe when she met him in real life, she decided not to invite him round, the woman is up the wall, one of the strangest and nastiest of them all.

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Offline chami


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Quintavalle and Curatolo both appeared as late witnesses. Police had not located them earlier, save for journalist. Case breakthrough, and they are major witnesses. This court will accept their testimony, since the Supreme Court already has.


They are acceptable because they are consistent and fit into the overall picture.

This court will accept their testimony, since the Supreme Court already has- does not appear logical
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

She was indeed nasty, like many that latched on from Day 1. But it was Frank Sfarzo who exposed the anonymous prosecution 'superwitness', on his blog, and ridiculed him as the homeless heroin addict 'tramp'.

AD Frank Sfarzo, the film buff who wished some actor would play HIM in the role of the 'courageous blogger', may not have realized that the archetypal 'homeless tramp' has always been the very noble Charles Chaplin.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Sallyoo ‏@Sallyoo 5m
Court back - RS not there at the moment.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

chami wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Quintavalle and Curatolo both appeared as late witnesses. Police had not located them earlier, save for journalist. Case breakthrough, and they are major witnesses. This court will accept their testimony, since the Supreme Court already has.


They are acceptable because they are consistent and fit into the overall picture.

This court will accept their testimony, since the Supreme Court already has- does not appear logical


It was an application in Ergonian :) logic, anyway, that since the Supremes emphasized Hellman's illogicality in repudiating Curatolo and Quintavalle, that their combined testimony would be accepted by the Florence court, since it would take a perverse set of circumstances for them to repeat Hellman.

I did not say that would be enough to convict, only that, it would fit into the overall picture, like wot you said ;)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 34m
Meredith process, the hearing resumes with the continuation of the indictment by the prosecutor Crini

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 23m
Process Meredith, Raffaele Sollecito has not returned to the courtroom after the break

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 10m
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: " We [they?] have tried to clean up the crime scene, this excludes the intervention of a stranger"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 2m
Meredith process, PM Crini: "The bloody footprint on the floor in the bathroom is that of a man, a guest in the house."
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli's Twitter feed shows prosecutor Crini in fine form, emphasizing cleanup, planning, staging, aggravated calunnia. I think he will ask for a life sentence. The two sweatered scruffs might well get a surprise today, and tomorrow, Kercher family and Lumumba's lawyer get to speak.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 1m
Meredith process, PM Crini: "The blood on the mat is part of a general action of cleanup"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 2m
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "There was an intent to camouflage [conceal, disguise] the crime scene"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 29s
Merdith process, PM Crini: "You'd be foolish to think that shoe prints [in the hall] and a bloody footprint on the mat are both Guede's"
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 1m
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "The hypothesis of a stranger who comes into the house to kill Meredith is just fanciful"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 2m
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "The blood imprint by a foot number 36 is that of a woman, or former footballer Palanca?"
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Appeal Session #4: Today Lead Prosecutor Alessandro Crini Summarises The Prosecution’s Case
Posted by Peter Quennell

TJMK
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Yummi's tweets from the courtroom:

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1h
Crini has unfold[ed] five chapters. Says he has a total of sixteen

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1h
Crini: a most fertile chapter of analysis is the 'post-factum' actions and behaviors of defendants

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1h
Crini: suspects' statements are extremely interesting: RS's statements; AK's e-mail, interr. statement, memoriale

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1h
Still to be determined if calunnia was occasional due to pressure, or aggravated; Crini says a 'depistaggio reale' (sidetracking) occurred

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 53m
Crini: the perp(s) organized a rather complex plan to clean up and 'sidetrack' on the murder scene.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 52m
Knox's lamp was the only light in her room.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 49m
Suspects are only ones with a 'logistic' capability and an interest to 'clean' the murder scene. They aimed at 'diminishing' the evidence mass

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 41m
Crini: starts talking about the isolated bloody print; calls it a 'talking element'. Why is that print alone?

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 33m
The unitary sense made by elements like the bloody print, is a cleanup. Considers the lone-perp scenario: inconsistent

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 29m
Does it make sense for Guede to leave there the evidence of (putative) theft, and clean footprints?

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 23m
Guede's sentencing was not well calibrated says Crini. But a Guede alone scenario is not tenable

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 13m
Speaking of a female's print left in luminol, Crini sounds outraged saying other substances is vague unsubstantiated conjecture

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 13m
The most significant stain may be the one in Romanelli's room, says Crini.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 2m
Bathmat print and luminol prints were chapter 7 of Crini's argument; 8. is the staging of theft.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 5m
Meredith, Crini: "In the room of one of the other girls there is a fluorescent stain which refers to the DNA of the victim and Amanda"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 3m
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "The hypothesis of the theft and the "climb" of Guede to enter the window is implausible"
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

guermantes wrote:
La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 2m
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "The blood imprint by a foot number 36 is that of a woman, or former footballer Palanca?"

Humor in the courtroom...here he is...the footballer with the small feet.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massimo_Palanca
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

At the moment, I'm not getting any tweets from Florence in my part of the world. Anyone else is having the same problem? Are judges taking another break?

Ah, I've just received one: :)

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 1m
Meredith process, PM Crini: "There are elements that lead directly to the defendants'
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Crini speaks about chapter 9, the statements of Sollecito. His call to his sister. His alert was late even if preceded the postals arrival
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Sollecito in court before the break:

Attachment:
RS in court Nov 25, 2013.jpg


LINEA GIALLA


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 3m
Crini speaks about Knox's declarations. Interested in the timings. Says too much repeated to be coerced.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 52s
Notes Knox's statements are inconsistent and omissive before her interrogation.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Present time in Florence is 16:45

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 6m
Knox thinks locked door is normal; does not flush toilet when finds feces; does not notice blood before having a shower; thinks blood is ok

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 4m
Points out Sollecito says Romanelli's door was wide open; Knox doesn't notice theft. Crini highlights the 'combination' of inconsistencies

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 3m
Knox spoke about a scream and a sexual violence before anyone knew. Sollecito said nothing was stolen before they knew.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 54s
Knox needed to put some additional content into the 'calunnia', says Crini, or wouldn't be believed, so she puts in pieces of truth
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 4m
Dreamlike component in Knox's statement, fish blood, are devices needed to surround a calunnia strategy

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 3m
Knox's calunnia is a strategy protracted over time says Crini

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 2m
Crini: Knox's set of statements and false accusation are 'primary' pieces of evidence

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki now
Crini censures H-Z's reasoning about calunnia (why not indicate the real culprit?). Says H-Z committed 'physical violence' on trial file
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Sallyoo ‏@Sallyoo 51s
RS has returned to the courtroom (long lunch!) #amandaknox

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 2m
Chapter 11. is DNA. Crini says we may have evidence enough by now anyway

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Nencini suggests to interrupt [pause, stop] and go on tomorrow with following prosecution's points. New schedule.

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione now
Meredith process, the hearing adjourned. The 'requisitoria' by the prosecutor Crini continues tomorrow morning
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks for the courtroom updates. Much appreciated.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks for all the work, Guermantes. Sorry everyone, but I had a major computer blow out and have been unable to help with the updates. Hopefully tomorrow, I'll be back in action.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

LUFC1972 wrote:
Thanks for the courtroom updates. Much appreciated.


You're welcome, LUFC. I think we too need to take a (working lunch) break. :) Or, let's all take a nap. It's been a long day/night/morning.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks G.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I have a feeling...that Guede is going to save Knox and Sollecito. Not that they or their followers will ever acknowledge it of course, or probably even realise.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Thanks for all the work, Guermantes. Sorry everyone, but I had a major computer blow out and have been unable to help with the updates. Hopefully tomorrow, I'll be back in action.



Wondered were out were, and, I noticed those attacks but not as much as yesterday.


So, to cap, Bongiorno and co will have been taking notes down feverishly, to try to discredit what he said, but if the presiding judge & his second in command and the court clerks assigned to that bench have done their work correctly, the very inconsistencies pointed out now, will have been made very clear to those lay persons, the difference is, this judge is not in the business of just getting done and making opening statements that show a total disregard For Meredith's family, the police, the prosecutors and defence lawyers, and he knows exactly what the prosecutor is saying about failing to underpin whatever is said or done, that's why it is all well and good shouting one's mouth off about Mr Curatolo, but that simply will not do and then him in combination with other witnesses; what? is the court to believe 20 thousand coincidences took place making everyone uncreditworthy but the two proven liars creditworthy? Huh, I do not think so.


Send then DOWN.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
I have a feeling...that Guede is going to save Knox and Sollecito. Not that they or their followers will ever acknowledge it of course, or probably even realise.



How?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Michael wrote:
I have a feeling...that Guede is going to save Knox and Sollecito. Not that they or their followers will ever acknowledge it of course, or probably even realise.



How?



Well, here's how it's going to go. Tomorrow, Crini's going to request that their sentences be upheld and increased to life. He was gearing up for that move earlier today when he went out of his way to point out that he thought Guede's sentence to be far too light (yeah, I know he got a light sentence but he deserved far more and these two deserve life!). BUT, because of Guede's very light final sentence, the court will be painfully aware of the high lack of parity with the sentence of their co-convicted should they get life, something which may appear very unfair and for that reason, the court may be very reluctant to impose a life sentence. They may get their sentences increased, possibly even raised to 30 (but probably not), but not given life...thanks to Guede and his sentence. Of course, if it turns out as I predict, the pair and their supporters will certainly not be acknowledging this lucky break, they'll all be screaming about how hard done by they are and what a travesty it is. But, I think the fact remains, had Guede not opted for the fast track process and gotten his reduced sentence, those two would REALLY be in the shit right now. But now, as it stands, I think Rudy may have done them a favour.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
I have a feeling...that Guede is going to save Knox and Sollecito. Not that they or their followers will ever acknowledge it of course, or probably even realise.


Me too. I think they made a deal before Guede left Italy. But I do not think that the money has been paid and Geude is not going to honor it any more, because his sentencing is going to get over sooner.

Also his credibility is all time low at this moment. He is no more reliable.

Money can only do so much.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Ergon wrote:
@zorba, I adjusted the Time clock in the UCP and my times seem OK to me now. You?




Hi Ergon,

But if you look at my post now, it will show a time that is later than what the time is here and in Italy, it says a time after 12, but it is now 11:47 in Florence, in my preferences I have it set to UTC + 1 hour, but it is not showing up correctly.

Tell me, what do you have your own computer preference set at, as regards Time Zone?

Same time as Calgary? And what time does your latest post say as current time, on your own computer?

I get to see your post as being posted an hour later than it is right now.
I see everyone's posts at an incorrect and future time.


Hi zorba,
I set to EST (Toronto) and make sure that Daylight Savings Time is set to "No". Board time and posts show up correctly at my end. Anyone else having problems?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
zorba wrote:
Michael wrote:
I have a feeling...that Guede is going to save Knox and Sollecito. Not that they or their followers will ever acknowledge it of course, or probably even realise.



How?



Well, here's how it's going to go. Tomorrow, Crini's going to request that their sentences be upheld and increased to life. He was gearing up for that move earlier today when he went out of his way to point out that he thought Guede's sentence to be far too light (yeah, I know he got a light sentence but he deserved far more and these two deserve life!). BUT, because of Guede's very light final sentence, the court will be painfully aware of the high lack of parity with the sentence of their co-convicted should they get life, something which may appear very unfair and for that reason, the court may be very reluctant to impose a life sentence. They may get their sentences increased, possibly even raised to 30 (but probably not), but not given life...thanks to Guede and his sentence. Of course, if it turns out as I predict, the pair and their supporters will certainly not be acknowledging this lucky break, they'll all be screaming about how hard done by they are and what a travesty it is. But, I think the fact remains, had Guede not opted for the fast track process and gotten his reduced sentence, those two would REALLY be in the shit right now. But now, as it stands, I think Rudy may have done them a favour.


Yews, this abbreviated option, I think it gives way too great a reduction, because those taking it, sdo not plead guilty, but, I guess if they did not give the big reduction, nobody would opt for it.

Still, I think what he actually received is applicable, so before the reduction, because the reduction is just what it is, whether it is right or not is another matter, I can't see his outcome affecting theirs, he got a big sentence but got he reduction, which they too could have received. I do think they deserve life, more so on seeing all they've done after getting out, but even 25 would go a length, though considering their brute-mindedness in all of it, life is the correct sentence.

On Knox, I think she takes it all as some kind of big joke, and that even when she was locked up, if not insane, she sure is as weird as it gets. I do think she is a sadist, she enjoys seeing too what it has got everyone into, on her side and derives pleasure from all of that and at being one of the 3 who knows the truth but to her, in her mind, she thinks Meredith got what she deserved, I think she is like that because they had a fight.
Sollecito's dad, well him, if really doesn't know the truth, then it means Sollecito is having to keep an act up with him, but if he knows, and does what he does, then it must be because he sees it as something most unfortunate but approaches his son as though sonny is a small boy, one that got caught stealing choco bars or apples, and does not grasp he just cannot treat this in that way, but then, it would be pure selfishness to turn a blind eye to what his son did wrong and protect him.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I think any convicting court will be painfully aware of the apparent lack of parity between sentences. A key part of a court's role is not simply dealing justice...but making justice seen to be done. If the gap in parity is too large then it would damage this latter key role of justice.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
zorba wrote:
Ergon wrote:
@zorba, I adjusted the Time clock in the UCP and my times seem OK to me now. You?




Hi Ergon,

But if you look at my post now, it will show a time that is later than what the time is here and in Italy, it says a time after 12, but it is now 11:47 in Florence, in my preferences I have it set to UTC + 1 hour, but it is not showing up correctly.

Tell me, what do you have your own computer preference set at, as regards Time Zone?

Same time as Calgary? And what time does your latest post say as current time, on your own computer?

I get to see your post as being posted an hour later than it is right now.
I see everyone's posts at an incorrect and future time.


Hi zorba,
I set to EST (Toronto) and make sure that Daylight Savings Time is set to "No". Board time and posts show up correctly at my end. Anyone else having problems?


Aha, that's fixed it Ergon, thank you for responding. The daylight thing, I tried it earlier today but the board was playing up at that moment so it failed to submit.

So I wonder if Sollecito, having been an accomplice, maybe helping stage the scene, is regretting trying to save his Knox?

Otherwise, if he was fully involved then there is nothing for him to regret except not telling the truth and explaining, he may then have been shown leniency, who knows, anyhow.... stick a fork in his ass, turn him over, he's done!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Yes, always make sure the daylight saving thing is unchecked in your UCP, even in summer. It doesn't work properly and so is useless.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
I think any convicting court will be painfully aware of the apparent lack of parity between sentences. A key part of a court's role is not simply dealing justice...but making justice seen to be done. If the gap in parity is too large then it would damage this latter key role of justice.


The fact is he opted for the abbreviated hearing, which is not even a trial, they could have received it too, so there is no inequality at all involved and I cannot see how the court will be looking at his sentence, they know his actual sentence was 30 and everyone else does too.

I think the court will have a total disregard for any such consideration.
I just do not think they are in the business of doing stuff to be seen doing it, that kind of idea ties in with Knox's PR lot saying the police, prosecutors and judges only did this and that because they didn't want to be seen.... etc.

All I know is that if only the defence asks for an appeal the defence cannot have a sentence increased, but if both apply then the sentence can be increased.

So what I've been wondering is exactly what is the status of this appeal, is it something viewed as having been requested by both sides seeing as how it came to this position after a set of steps that means it is not only an appeal viewed as having been requested by the defence alone but by both sides.
First Knox and Sollecito appealed then the prosecution, then Knox and Sollecito, so I'm thinking it really is viewed as the culmination of requests, a process, that's why they CAN receive more.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Prosecutor In Amanda Knox Appeal: Knox Is Guilty

By Barbie Latza Nadeau

November 25th 2013 1:00 pm



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THE MURDER OF MEREDITH KERCHER WIKI
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
I think any convicting court will be painfully aware of the apparent lack of parity between sentences. A key part of a court's role is not simply dealing justice...but making justice seen to be done. If the gap in parity is too large then it would damage this latter key role of justice.


I agree. But didn't someone say the other day that increasing AK's and RS's sentences to life was impossible anyway at this stage of the proceedings? Sorry, I can't look it up now...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hi Ava. No, it's not impossible and I believe Prosecutor Crini will certainly ask for it for both of them. However, whilst I believe the court may certainly increase their sentences by some years, I strongly suspect that they'll escape life. I think 30 years is the most the prosecution can realistically expect, although it may well be less. I just think Guede's final sentence will have a bearing, although I doubt very much that we'll read of that in the judges Motivations. I could be wrong of course and they may well end up with a life sentence...we'll have to see.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ava wrote:
Michael wrote:
I think any convicting court will be painfully aware of the apparent lack of parity between sentences. A key part of a court's role is not simply dealing justice...but making justice seen to be done. If the gap in parity is too large then it would damage this latter key role of justice.


I agree. But didn't someone say the other day that increasing AK's and RS's sentences to life was impossible anyway at this stage of the proceedings? Sorry, I can't look it up now...
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Thanks for your hard work, guermantes! :)



It was me who said something on that Ava, but not that it is impossible, what I said was what I repeated here, just now, that I had looked it up in the Italian penal code, and the fact is, if both side ask for an appeal then the sentence can be increased, but if only a defence party appeals, the sentence cannot be increased and that is why I put it here, asking now, again, if this appeal is viewed as a culmination, thus because there has not been just one appeal but a series(requested by both sides) that it then means that the sentence can be increased, because the absolute fact is, based on the info in the Italian penal code, which I can show, if this is now a matter of just the defence appealing, then the sentence cannot be increased, that's not something I've made up, but it is written in the Code, and if that is incorrect I do not know what is CORRECT.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

It's an automatic translation

Article 597.
Cognition of the court of appeal.

1. The appeal gives the court of second instance the knowledge of the procedure for the points of the decision to which they relate the reasons offered.

2. When appellant is the prosecutor:

a) if an appeal against a judgment of conviction, the court may, within the limits of the jurisdiction of the court of first instance, to give a legal definition to the fact more severe, change the species or increase the amount of the penalty, revoke benefits, apply when necessary, security measures and take such further action required or permitted by law;

b) if an appeal against a judgment of acquittal, the judge can pronounce sentence and output the measures referred to in subparagraph a) or acquit for a cause other than that set out in the judgment under appeal;

c) confirms the first-instance judgment, the court may enforce, modify, or exclude, in the cases determined by law, the penalties and the security measures.

3. When appellant is the only defendant, the court may not impose a more severe penalty for the species or amount, apply a new security measure or worse, acquit the accused for a cause less favorable than that set out in the judgment under appeal or revoke benefits, prejudice to the right, within the limits specified in paragraph 1, to give a legal definition to the fact more severe, as long as do not exceed the jurisdiction of the court of first instance.

4. In any case, if it is granted the appeal of the accused or the circumstances relating to offenses competitors, even if they are bundled together for continuation, the total sentence imposed is correspondingly diminished.

5. In the judgment can also be applied to the probation office, the non-mention of the conviction in the certificate of criminal record and one or more mitigating circumstances, may also be carried out, when necessary, the comparison judgment pursuant to Rule 69 of the Criminal Code.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

guermantes wrote:
LUFC1972 wrote:
Thanks for the courtroom updates. Much appreciated.


You're welcome, LUFC. I think we too need to take a (working lunch) break. :) Or, let's all take a nap. It's been a long day/night/morning.


Thanks from me too. There must have been problems with the server, because I have been unable to even load the website yesterday.

It's great to have all the tweets in one place.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks for the updates, guermantes.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Ergon wrote:
zorba wrote:
Ergon wrote:
@zorba, I adjusted the Time clock in the UCP and my times seem OK to me now. You?




Hi Ergon,

But if you look at my post now, it will show a time that is later than what the time is here and in Italy, it says a time after 12, but it is now 11:47 in Florence, in my preferences I have it set to UTC + 1 hour, but it is not showing up correctly.

Tell me, what do you have your own computer preference set at, as regards Time Zone?

Same time as Calgary? And what time does your latest post say as current time, on your own computer?

I get to see your post as being posted an hour later than it is right now.
I see everyone's posts at an incorrect and future time.


Hi zorba,
I set to EST (Toronto) and make sure that Daylight Savings Time is set to "No". Board time and posts show up correctly at my end. Anyone else having problems?


Aha, that's fixed it Ergon, thank you for responding. The daylight thing, I tried it earlier today but the board was playing up at that moment so it failed to submit.

So I wonder if Sollecito, having been an accomplice, maybe helping stage the scene, is regretting trying to save his Knox?

Otherwise, if he was fully involved then there is nothing for him to regret except not telling the truth and explaining, he may then have been shown leniency, who knows, anyhow.... stick a fork in his ass, turn him over, he's done!!!


You're welcome, zorba.

Some speculation that Sollecito might have, in subtly separating himself from Knox, set himself for a reduced sentence. I dunno. Curatolo places both both of them there. Sitting on his bench at night, I see: if he says he saw them in the basketball court, I believe him.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

A long report on today's trial proceedings by Roberto Davide Papini for La Nazione (improved Google trans):

Meredith, Prosecutor Crini: "Elements converge on the two defendants." But Sollecito replies: "Allegations uncertain and approximate"

At 10:28 started the indictment of the prosecutor Allessandro Crini in the appeal process for the murder of Meredith Kercher, the British student murdered on November 1, 2007, with Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito as defendants. Seven hours were not enough, however (six counting the lunch break), to play all of Crini's speech.

Crini has, however, retraced the path laid out by the Supreme Court to stress that "there are converging elements that lead to the two defendants," whereas [there are] reliable witnesses who were brought by the prosecution, there are "implausible" reconstructions of the defendants and defenses. It starts, then, tomorrow, Tuesday, November 26th at 9.30. Sollecito, present in court, declined to comment on the indictment of Crini and said briefly: "Elements uncertain and approximate."

Crini began his indictment stressing that the judgment of the Supreme Court has advanced a number of reliefs and "wide spectrum censorship spread on the judgment of acquittal," asking the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence to "assess the evidential framework in a non-atomized manner by putting together the various aspects, not making the mistake of the court of appeal of Perugia."

Crini then addresses the issue of the defendants, their being or not being present at the crime scene. The prosecutor argued that the fact that Sollecito had used his computer at his home in the evening when the English girl was killed elsewhere (ie in the apartment the victim shared with other students, including Amanda) is not proven. "The first human interaction with the machine is at 5:20 in the morning," says Crini (so hours after the murder), recovering the assessment carried out in the first trial. In his speech Crini also talked about a couple of witnesses "which seem fought." The first is that the homeless Antonio Curatolo" and some felt resentful that he spoke of the presence of the two defendants in the Grimana Square in a zone that has its compatibility with the facts."

Crini stresses that Curatolo is trusted to have already testified usefully in another murder case." Curatolo is sure of his memory and it is not enough to say that he is a drug addict to devalue the testimony - Crini continues - and the fact that he confused a date with another is not well founded, because he mixed up the night of Halloween, but the memory is correct for the fact that he remembered how in the evening (between 1 and 2 November 2007) it was raining and in fact it was raining the night of the murder." Crini continues, reminding that Curatolo said he perceived a discussion between the two defendants, with Sollecito who looked over the railing in the direction of the house where the crime took place, "so it is not a generic memory, but gives a lively scene." Thus, according Crini, the testimony of Curatolo belies the alibi of Sollecito.

The prosecutor then goes over to the testimony of Marco Quintavalle, the trader who said he saw Amanda Knox in front of his shop early in the morning after the murder, tired and agitated. "His story - says Crini - is accurate and reliable, and the fact that he came to testify months after the crime does not mean anything." For Crini, therefore, the story of Quintavalle belies the reconstruction of Amanda who said she was in bed in the house of her boyfriend, Raffaele, until 10 in the morning.

Sollecito, as mentioned, is present in the courtroom at the courthouse Novoli, smiling and dressed in a purple sweater. Always absent, however, is Knox that has remained in the United States. During a break in the trial, Sollecito made ​​a brief statement to reporters: "The evidence against me is uncertain and approximate, it's been years that I have to fight against elements that have no basis in reality." For Giulia Bongiorno, one of his lawyers, "the prosecutor is trying to make the defender elegantly errors of the prosecution. Sollecito is innocent and the picture that emerges in this process confirms this. In the indictment, there are many uncertainties and gaps."

In the afternoon Crini resumes his indictment stressing that there was an alteration of the crime scene: "The fact that they have attempted to clean up and fix the scene of the crime to make it look like it [the murder] was committed by a stranger, who had the only interest to escape as soon as possible, not to erase his tracks." According to Crini, the bloody footprint left on the floor in the bathroom would be just "part of a more general set up to cover up activity performed on the crime scene." Crini emphasizes that this is a male footprint and it does not make sense that it is Rudy Guede's: "Absurd that he has, after the crime, left footprints with the shoes and then one bare foot in an attempt to clean up, since he has left his feces in the bathroom without flushing the toilet." Speaking of Guede (sentenced to 16 years for conspiracy to commit murder), Crini notes that "the penalty was not centratissima", implying he feels it is too mild.

The prosecutor continued his long speech, giving a joke: "The trace of the female foot size 36/38 is certainly a woman's, unless it is the former footballer of Catanzaro Palanca, famous for having small feet". Crinicontinues: "There is, then, a fluorescence in Romanelli's room (a roommate in the house, ndr) that refers to both the DNA of the victim and of Knox." The prosecutor then speaks of the hypothesis of theft and Guede, climbing through the window, "as being completely implausible, a baroque attempted theft, with the launch of a rock and a climb to get into the house of someone who knows him well."

The prosecutor Crini goes on to analyze, then, the statements of the accused, talking about stories unconvincing," Knox said she saw, on entering the house of the crime, the door open, feces in the Italian girls' bathroom, found that Meredith's door was locked was normal (Meredith and her friends say it was unusual), then goes into her and Meredith's bathroom to take a shower and discovers blood stains and does not see the "spray" of blood and even the room where there would be theft where the door was open. So does not see things the most egregious."

Beyond that, continues Crini, "Knox spoke about certain facts, slandering Patrick Lumumba, accusing him of being the murderer, then talking about a scream of a victim and sexual violence suffered by Meredith, data that can only be derived from the fact that it was the protagonist who knew the real facts. Segments of truth with which Amanda intersperses her slander." A slander, according to Crini, "with an intent to mislead by Knox." According to the reasoning of Crini (in line with what was said by the Supreme Court) "if Knox accused Lumumba, even knowing he was totally alien to the crime, it is precisely because she was present at the crime scene and her presence can not be detached from that of Sollecito " .

In first degree trial, Knox and Sollecito were convicted (respectively 26 and 25 years), then acquitted by a judgment of appeal. The Supreme Court, however, reversed this judgment sending it back to a new appeal process, the current year, in fact, in Florence.

Tomorrow, Tuesday, November 26 , back in the courtroom: more word to the prosecution. Then it's up to the civil plaintiffs, then in the next hearings - defenses, according to a schedule that would lead to the judgment in January.


LA NAZIONE (FIRENZE)

Maori says at the end of the video on the La Nazione website that Sollecito is 'tranquillamente' (as usual) - calm, serene, tranquil. I wonder how long his good mood will last. ;)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Statement posted by Knox supporter MaryH:
Quote:
For those how are interested in following the case, this was posted today on Amanda Knox’s blog:

“Today, my lawyers filed an appeal of my slander conviction with the European Court of Human Rights. My slander conviction was based on comments I made regarding Patrick Lumumba…comments that were coerced during a lengthy interrogation by Perugia police shortly before I was arrested in 2007. The interrogation took place in a language I barely spoke, without a lawyer present, and without the police informing me that I was a suspect in Meredith’s murder, which was a violation of my human rights. The police were the ones who first brought forth Patrick’s name saying they knew I was going to meet him the night of Meredith Kercher’s murder which was not true. I have stated many times that my original comments about Patrick were coerced by the police and not true.

“(Note: The European Court of Human Rights is an international court set up in 1959. It rules on individual or State applications alleging violations of the civil and political rights set out in the European Convention on Human Rights. Since 1998 it has sat as a full-time court and individuals can apply to it directly. The Court is located in Strasbourg, France.)

“(Further note: I was originally convicted of slander at my original trial in December 2009. My conviction for slander was upheld during my appeal that resulted in my acquittal of Meredith’s murder. The slander conviction was upheld by the Court of Cassation in March of 2013 and my appeal to the European Court of Human Rights was filed today.)”
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Statement posted by Knox supporter MaryH:
Quote:
For those how are interested in following the case, this was posted today on Amanda Knox’s blog:

“Today, my lawyers filed an appeal of my slander conviction with the European Court of Human Rights. My slander conviction was based on comments I made regarding Patrick Lumumba…comments that were coerced during a lengthy interrogation by Perugia police shortly before I was arrested in 2007. The interrogation took place in a language I barely spoke, without a lawyer present, and without the police informing me that I was a suspect in Meredith’s murder, which was a violation of my human rights. The police were the ones who first brought forth Patrick’s name saying they knew I was going to meet him the night of Meredith Kercher’s murder which was not true. I have stated many times that my original comments about Patrick were coerced by the police and not true.

“(Note: The European Court of Human Rights is an international court set up in 1959. It rules on individual or State applications alleging violations of the civil and political rights set out in the European Convention on Human Rights. Since 1998 it has sat as a full-time court and individuals can apply to it directly. The Court is located in Strasbourg, France.)

“(Further note: I was originally convicted of slander at my original trial in December 2009. My conviction for slander was upheld during my appeal that resulted in my acquittal of Meredith’s murder. The slander conviction was upheld by the Court of Cassation in March of 2013 and my appeal to the European Court of Human Rights was filed today.)”


If not having a lawyer was her issue then I wonder why she didn't formally retracted her false accusation once she had an appointed lawyer? Instead, once she hired Luciano Ghirga, he told the press he had explained to Knox how serious her false accusation was and that he was still trying to figure out which of her versions was true, if any.

The signed statements made the night of her arrest are very simple and easy to understand. There is no way she did not know what she was signing. She also had a translator.

This is a farce. Some people don't know when enough is enough.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Amanda Knox prosecutor urges judges not to repeat 'mistake' of acquittal
By Lizzy Davies

He [Sollecito] told reporters outside the court: "I just wanted to say that the things of which I am accused are still, after several years of this nightmare, vague and uncertain. After all this time I must continue to face repeated accusations which do not have any basis in reality or any kind of verisimilitude."

Bongiorno reportedly dismissed the prosecution's account as "impressive but unsuccessful clutching at straws". A verdict is expected in January.


THE GUARDIAN

"Clutching at straws"? Wow, she actually had the nerve to say that. So, we now have the three little pigs (Sollecito, Bongiorno, Maori), living in a house made of straw, thinking that their defense strategy is a castle made of stone. How long will it take for the straw to rot down? Very soon, they may find themselves grasping at straws, too.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Amanda Knox Appeal II / Meredith Kercher Murder
Update: Nov. 25, 2013
By Andrea Vogt

Razed to the ground. Faulty logic. Conjecture. Implausible. Unconvincing. A combination of inconsistencies. Large spectrum censorship of the facts. These were just a few of the scathing adjectives used by a Florence prosecutor to describe the acquittal decision in the first appeals trial that freed Amanda Knox in 2011. Appeals prosecutor Alessandro Crini wasn’t mincing words Monday in his terse closing arguments, which lasted seven hours and are expected to continue Tuesday, before wrapping with an sentencing request — possibly life.


THE FREELANCE DESK
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:04 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Statement posted by Knox supporter MaryH:
Quote:
For those how are interested in following the case, this was posted today on Amanda Knox’s blog:

“Today, my lawyers filed an appeal of my slander conviction with the European Court of Human Rights. My slander conviction was based on comments I made regarding Patrick Lumumba…comments that were coerced during a lengthy interrogation by Perugia police shortly before I was arrested in 2007. The interrogation took place in a language I barely spoke, without a lawyer present, and without the police informing me that I was a suspect in Meredith’s murder, which was a violation of my human rights. The police were the ones who first brought forth Patrick’s name saying they knew I was going to meet him the night of Meredith Kercher’s murder which was not true. I have stated many times that my original comments about Patrick were coerced by the police and not true.

“(Note: The European Court of Human Rights is an international court set up in 1959. It rules on individual or State applications alleging violations of the civil and political rights set out in the European Convention on Human Rights. Since 1998 it has sat as a full-time court and individuals can apply to it directly. The Court is located in Strasbourg, France.)

“(Further note: I was originally convicted of slander at my original trial in December 2009. My conviction for slander was upheld during my appeal that resulted in my acquittal of Meredith’s murder. The slander conviction was upheld by the Court of Cassation in March of 2013 and my appeal to the European Court of Human Rights was filed today.)”


Why would Knox make this claim: "The police were the ones who first brought forth Patrick’s name?" In the trial transcripts, she states that she was bopped on the back of the head twice by an unidentifiable person and then she brought forth Patrick's name.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

From Andrea Vogt above, it appears that with a revised trial calendar, "A verdict is expected in mid-January."
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:44 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Statement posted by Knox supporter MaryH:
Quote:
For those how are interested in following the case, this was posted today on Amanda Knox’s blog:

“Today, my lawyers filed an appeal of my slander conviction with the European Court of Human Rights. My slander conviction was based on comments I made regarding Patrick Lumumba…comments that were coerced during a lengthy interrogation by Perugia police shortly before I was arrested in 2007. The interrogation took place in a language I barely spoke, without a lawyer present, and without the police informing me that I was a suspect in Meredith’s murder, which was a violation of my human rights. The police were the ones who first brought forth Patrick’s name saying they knew I was going to meet him the night of Meredith Kercher’s murder which was not true. I have stated many times that my original comments about Patrick were coerced by the police and not true.

“(Note: The European Court of Human Rights is an international court set up in 1959. It rules on individual or State applications alleging violations of the civil and political rights set out in the European Convention on Human Rights. Since 1998 it has sat as a full-time court and individuals can apply to it directly. The Court is located in Strasbourg, France.)

“(Further note: I was originally convicted of slander at my original trial in December 2009. My conviction for slander was upheld during my appeal that resulted in my acquittal of Meredith’s murder. The slander conviction was upheld by the Court of Cassation in March of 2013 and my appeal to the European Court of Human Rights was filed today.)”


Why would Knox make this claim: "The police were the ones who first brought forth Patrick’s name?" In the trial transcripts, she states that she was bopped on the back of the head twice by an unidentifiable person and then she brought forth Patrick's name.


Amanda Knox and her parents have claimed for the past years that she was threatened and physically abused during her interview that led to her arrest.

These claims are now suspiciously absent from her blog post. Now the focus shifts to the length of the interview, not having a lawyer present and not being fluent in Italian.

Barely a year later she would claim to be more qualified translating her own testimony in court than the court appointed translator.

Amanda Knox is a compulsive liar.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Quotioni Guermantes: Amanda Knox is a compulsive liar

Unquotioni: You ain't wrong

She's married the Devil

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
Jester wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Statement posted by Knox supporter MaryH:
Quote:
For those how are interested in following the case, this was posted today on Amanda Knox’s blog:

“Today, my lawyers filed an appeal of my slander conviction with the European Court of Human Rights. My slander conviction was based on comments I made regarding Patrick Lumumba…comments that were coerced during a lengthy interrogation by Perugia police shortly before I was arrested in 2007. The interrogation took place in a language I barely spoke, without a lawyer present, and without the police informing me that I was a suspect in Meredith’s murder, which was a violation of my human rights. The police were the ones who first brought forth Patrick’s name saying they knew I was going to meet him the night of Meredith Kercher’s murder which was not true. I have stated many times that my original comments about Patrick were coerced by the police and not true.

“(Note: The European Court of Human Rights is an international court set up in 1959. It rules on individual or State applications alleging violations of the civil and political rights set out in the European Convention on Human Rights. Since 1998 it has sat as a full-time court and individuals can apply to it directly. The Court is located in Strasbourg, France.)

“(Further note: I was originally convicted of slander at my original trial in December 2009. My conviction for slander was upheld during my appeal that resulted in my acquittal of Meredith’s murder. The slander conviction was upheld by the Court of Cassation in March of 2013 and my appeal to the European Court of Human Rights was filed today.)”


Why would Knox make this claim: "The police were the ones who first brought forth Patrick’s name?" In the trial transcripts, she states that she was bopped on the back of the head twice by an unidentifiable person and then she brought forth Patrick's name.


Amanda Knox and her parents have claimed for the past years that she was threatened and physically abused during her interview that led to her arrest.

These claims are now suspiciously absent from her blog post. Now the focus shifts to the length of the interview, not having a lawyer present and not being fluent in Italian.

Barely a year later she would claim to be more qualified translating her own testimony in court than the court appointed translator.

Amanda Knox is a compulsive liar.


Knox chose to speak with police on November 5. She could not have been upset about the amount of time spent there if she went there by choice. She did yoga stretches until police took an interest in her. When they began questioning her, she introduced Patrick's name to the discussion and subsequently accused him of murder. Two hours after the discussion began, she signed a statement confirming her accusation. The following day, she confirmed her accusations. The next day, she denied lying when she made the accusation. How can she possibly expect another court to waste time reviewing her lies?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks guermantes for all the copying of the tweets. I was afraid it was going to be an all-nighter :) Lets see if they can wrap it up today.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:35 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Jester wrote:
Knox chose to speak with police on November 5. She could not have been upset about the amount of time spent there if she went there by choice. She did yoga stretches until police took an interest in her. When they began questioning her, she introduced Patrick's name to the discussion and subsequently accused him of murder. Two hours after the discussion began, she signed a statement confirming her accusation. The following day, she confirmed her accusations. The next day, she denied lying when she made the accusation. How can she possibly expect another court to waste time reviewing her lies?


Absolutely right. Not only that, Amanda Knox and her parents have claimed she stayed in Perugia to help police (a blatant lie), but Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have complained incessantly about being asked questions by police and spending some time at the police station after "her friend" Meredith was murdered.

She contradicts herself with every statement she makes.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:03 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Quotioni Guermantes: Amanda Knox is a compulsive liar

Unquotioni: You ain't wrong

She's married the Devil


It wasn't me, it was Nell who said that, Z. All credit goes to Nell, but I agree with your conclusion ('She [Knox]'s married the Devil'): shockingly close to the Truth.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:51 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Goodmorning :)

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Discussion on DNA and remaining evidence will start in 1h.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 11m
Francesco Sollecito was shocked, said he never expected so aggressive arguments from PG

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 13m
Yesterday, Crini spent the first hour to argue about logical 'method': how assess evidence altogether, examples, quotes of SC sentences
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:53 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Found closer photo of the damage on inside inner of bedroom window shutter. Shows the large size of the heavy indentation.

Caused when the window was broken.

The break-in was staged. Because that mark in that position can only have been caused by the ~9lb rock
having been thrown from the inside. There's no angle from the outside. Also with the window/shutter closed
the joist of the window obstructs any posited trajectory of the rock from the outside.

Photo shows a secondary impression down and to the left of the heavy indentation. Shows the rock was
thrown into the middle/bottom of the window. Is in accordance with the size of the rock.



Image

Large piece of glass still remaining in the top part of the window shows that nobody could have got their arm around to unlock the latch.

Glass in a line on the inside of the window. Line of the closed position of the shutter. The window was broken with the shutters closed, from the inside.

Image

They say the rock was thrown from the parapet overlooking (13 feet). There's the noise, the timing of person having to climb down into the gully, up the wall. Would have alerted and given plenty of chance for egress. Also (restating the strongest evidence around the window). Whitewashed wall .. October - damp earth. No marks at all in boosting up the whitewashed wall to gain entry. No mud anywhere; not on the ledge not on the floor. The position of the rock to the right directly under the window after being thrown all that way -- a ~ 9lb rock.


Last edited by ttrroonniicc on Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:36 am, edited 9 times in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hi guys, I'm still having issues with my computer and with my Twitter account. I don't think I'm going to be able to update everyone with the new Tweets this morning :(

At least the board seems to be working a bit better though...

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:20 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Statement posted by Knox supporter MaryH:
Quote:
For those how are interested in following the case, this was posted today on Amanda Knox’s blog:

“Today, my lawyers filed an appeal of my slander conviction with the European Court of Human Rights. My slander conviction was based on comments I made regarding Patrick Lumumba…comments that were coerced during a lengthy interrogation by Perugia police shortly before I was arrested in 2007. The interrogation took place in a language I barely spoke, without a lawyer present, and without the police informing me that I was a suspect in Meredith’s murder, which was a violation of my human rights. The police were the ones who first brought forth Patrick’s name saying they knew I was going to meet him the night of Meredith Kercher’s murder which was not true. I have stated many times that my original comments about Patrick were coerced by the police and not true.

“(Note: The European Court of Human Rights is an international court set up in 1959. It rules on individual or State applications alleging violations of the civil and political rights set out in the European Convention on Human Rights. Since 1998 it has sat as a full-time court and individuals can apply to it directly. The Court is located in Strasbourg, France.)

“(Further note: I was originally convicted of slander at my original trial in December 2009. My conviction for slander was upheld during my appeal that resulted in my acquittal of Meredith’s murder. The slander conviction was upheld by the Court of Cassation in March of 2013 and my appeal to the European Court of Human Rights was filed today.)”


If not having a lawyer was her issue then I wonder why she didn't formally retracted her false accusation once she had an appointed lawyer? Instead, once she hired Luciano Ghirga, he told the press he had explained to Knox how serious her false accusation was and that he was still trying to figure out which of her versions was true, if any.

The signed statements made the night of her arrest are very simple and easy to understand. There is no way she did not know what she was signing. She also had a translator.

This is a farce. Some people don't know when enough is enough.



It's purely a publicity stunt. All Knox's lawyers have done is file some paperwork...which will be rejected. But, that isn't the point. As we know, for the Knox Camp in thier warped little minds, the mere fact alone that you are contesting a piece of evidence means you have defeated that piece of evidence....likewise, the mere fact that you are appealing a conviction for a charge somewhere, anywhere, means you have defeated the charge and are innocent of said charge. That at least, is how their propaganda machine works.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 6m
Meredith process begins with the continuation of the hearing of the indictment by pm Crini

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 9s
Crini makes an introduction about circumstantial evidence
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
Ava wrote:
Michael wrote:
I think any convicting court will be painfully aware of the apparent lack of parity between sentences. A key part of a court's role is not simply dealing justice...but making justice seen to be done. If the gap in parity is too large then it would damage this latter key role of justice.


I agree. But didn't someone say the other day that increasing AK's and RS's sentences to life was impossible anyway at this stage of the proceedings? Sorry, I can't look it up now...
**
Thanks for your hard work, guermantes! :)



It was me who said something on that Ava, but not that it is impossible, what I said was what I repeated here, just now, that I had looked it up in the Italian penal code, and the fact is, if both side ask for an appeal then the sentence can be increased, but if only a defence party appeals, the sentence cannot be increased and that is why I put it here, asking now, again, if this appeal is viewed as a culmination, thus because there has not been just one appeal but a series(requested by both sides) that it then means that the sentence can be increased, because the absolute fact is, based on the info in the Italian penal code, which I can show, if this is now a matter of just the defence appealing, then the sentence cannot be increased, that's not something I've made up, but it is written in the Code, and if that is incorrect I do not know what is CORRECT.



That's what I had in mind. Thanks, zorba.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:56 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 23s
Crini: another introduction specific on DNA; notes btw that the new RIS finding is 'important' because adds information

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 31s
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini speaks about the DNA found on the knife found in Sollecito's home

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 2m
The presence of human DNA in a scratch on the blade of a knife itself is not usual

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 23s
Speaks about the single amplification by Stefanoni versus guidelines.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 38s
Crini: should we toss any result in the garbage, no matter how important and clear, whenever the test is not repeated?


La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 3m
The prosecution will ask for a guilty verdict for AK & RS this morning
http://www.lanazione.it/firenze/cronaca/2013/11/26/987942-meredith-processo-sollecito.shtml

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Someone who keeps a refrigerator like the one Vecchiotti has, should be less critical about laboratory practice

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki now
Guidelines are an indication that guide your drive, but then you have to drive
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Excerpt from Roberto Davide Papini's short update this morning:

Sollecito's other lawyer, Luca Maori, made a joke on the reliability of witnesses: "If, as the prosecutor says, Aviello is the Mercedes-Benz of unreliability, then Curatolo is the Ferrari (of unreliability)."

In the courtroom, at present, there is no Sollecito, but there's Patrick Lumumba, the man who was unjustly accused by Amanda Knox to be the author of the crime. Lumumba is a civil party and after Crini finishes, he will pass the torch to Patrick's lawyer, Carlo Pacelli.


LA NAZIONE
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 4m
Novelli knows very well about double and triple amplification protocols, and Stefanoni knows well too

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 4m
The meaning of test repetition is its necessity when you have a 'dirty', uncertain sequence like Knox's profile on the knife

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 6m
Meredith's profile came out clean on a single amplification, means the trace is clear.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 6m
Novelli cited saying the profile of Meredith is certain.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Crini recalls answers by the RIS, defence tried to elicit approval of CV, but RIS said multiple test only if possible, compromise for result
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:41 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 4m
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini argues that even the trace of the victim's DNA on Sollecito's knife is valid.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Interpretation of profile is for complex result. For non-complex profiles there is actually no 'interpretation'.

Sallyoo ‏@Sallyoo 3m
Crini defends solid evidence of MK DNA on kitchen knife
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

guermantes wrote:
Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Someone who keeps a refrigerator like the one Vecchiotti has, should be less critical about laboratory practice

:mrgreen:
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:50 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Vecchiotti's approach to the I-trace (refusal to test it) was 'ideological', 'weak', 'insufficient'

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki now
Vecchiotti omitted to note the censures/observations written by the other consultants, this procedure is incorrect

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Crini says he found out the negative controls were deposited, the court will find the document of deposit etc.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 59s
Vecchiotti said she obtained all cooperation she required. Raw data could be accessed by accessing the machine itself as Stefanoni offered.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki now
Vecchiotti and Tagliabracci have a reliability problem in relation to the case, for different reasons

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 30s
Crini says he learned a bit of genetics working on cold cases

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
The bra clasp: the first objection was the interpretation of the mixed/complex trace

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 2m
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini deals with the bra clasp of victim

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 2m
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "According to RIS, mixed traces are also analyzable"
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:10 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 2m
Meredith trial, Crini: "For the PM consultant, this is Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp of the victim"

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 3m
Sollecito's DNA is certainly on the clasp for the police; Vecchiotti doubts but considers X separately from Y haplotype

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Guede's Y haplotype in victim's vagina alone was used to identify him.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki now
Tagliabracci defends Vecchiotti saying the RIS statystical techniques were not used at the time; Crini cites Gill and Balding
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

guermantes wrote:
Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 30s
Crini says he learned a bit of genetics working on cold cases

I can see that! No offense to prosecutor Comodi, but Crini sounds very convincing.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I agree max. Crini is very well prepared and his explanations are simple, clear, and convincing. He even cites Balding!

Machiavelli wrote:
Tagliabracci defends Vecchiotti saying the RIS statystical techniques were not used at the time; Crini cites Gill and Balding
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 2m
Contamination must be deduced from context of finding and collection. You must think [of] a practical way for Sollecito's DNA to be transferred

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Crini cites the Olgiata case.

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 24s
Meredith process, for the prosecutor Crini "there was no contamination of the bra clasp of the victim"

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
There is no instance of transfer of Sollecito's DNA anywhere on the scene
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:27 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

VERY GOOD/SHARP/OBSERVATIONAL and true

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Someone who keeps a refrigerator like the one Vecchiotti has [ = hypocrites], should be less critical about laboratory practice

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki now
Crini recalls Pascali working on the Olgiata and the Claps case (2008, 2010);

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 40s
Meredith process, hearing suspended for a quarter of an hour
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:37 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

November 26, 2013

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione
Waiting for the start of the new trial hearing

Image
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 10m
Crini says - implying Vecchiotti, Pascali - some experts should be "held where they belong"
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:19 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Sallyoo ‏@Sallyoo 2m
Court is back in session. (That was a very Italian 15 minutes!)

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 10m
Meredith process, the hearing starts. The prosecutor Crini's speech continues

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 9m
Crini says will sketch a dynamic of events of the crime.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 7m
Location of crime - space between the bed and the wardrobe - is peculiar, analysed by UACV

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 3m
Analysis of blood drop pattern and position of victim when stabbed; body moved in a different position.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki now
She was still wearing a blue sweater which was removed subsequently.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 10s
Description of bruises and lesions around her mouth, indicates extreme force to prevent from screaming. Rest of body was also immobilized.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 36s
Specific indicator: no defence wounds; means bruises are not from fight but restraint.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 36s
Ridiculous to think that Rudy Guede - whom she knew - could intimidate Meredith totally to that point. She would react.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 12s
There were two knives, one was small, not much fit to kill.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki now
Criticizes Torre's theory that the large wound could be caused by a small knife: improbable, the wound has clear margins

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 13s
Wounds indicate she was immobilized by multiple people, they killed her because failing to do so completely, were terrified by her scream.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 36s
Rudy did not stab her, because he had used both his hands, which were unarmed
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 3m
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "The victim was hit by two knives"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 3m
Meredith process, Prosecutor Crini: "The victim was tied up with violence, there was no sharing"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 4m
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "It is implausible that the knives were in the hands of Rudy Guede"
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Sollecito cut her bra with a knife in multiple parts. hold bra to cut it - no Guede's DNA in that point - used a small very sharp-edge knife

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
The bra straps are cut in multiple points, not with a kitchen knife.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt now
In Florence, 2nd #amandaknox appeal prosecution delivering very aggressive closing args. Were there deliberate oversights in 1st appeal?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 6s
Crini: we don't need to figure out the reason for a kitchen knife to be carried from one apartment to the other.

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 29s
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: Sollecito had always carried a small pocket knife

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 46s
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "While Rudy raped Meredith, Amanda and Raffaele hit with two knives"

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
The print on the bed sheet is compatible with the kitchen knife
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 48s
Knox's DNA between the blade and the handle (36-i) is very significant. It's not from sweat or contact.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Crini believes the shoe prints on the pillowcase are from a female's shoe as suggested by police
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Italian prosecutor: DNA trace on murder weapons [sic] was not contaminated and belongs to Kercher

FLORENCE, Italy - The prosecutor arguing U.S. student Amanda Knox's guilt in the 2007 murder of her British roommate says a DNA sample on the blade of the presumed murder weapon was clean and corresponds to the victim.

Prosecutor Alessandro Crini, in his second day of closing Tuesday, sought to dismantle genetic evidence cited by a Perugia appeals court when it overturned the guilty verdicts against Knox and co-defendant Raffaele Sollecito.

At the appeals level, the genetic trace attributed to Kercher in the first trial was deemed by new experts to be unreliable.

But Crini said the trace "has a clean genetic profile" and corresponds to the victim, Meredith Kercher.

Italy's highest court annulled the acquittals and ordered a second appeals court to re-evaluate the evidence, blasting the appellate ruling.


EDMONTON JOURNAL
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

It appears Crini is arguing that Knox's BLOOD was between the handle and blade on knife!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 18s
The blood drop on the tap: a point is Knox does not explain, guesses, while she must be aware that she bled in the bathroom

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 9s
Crini: there is a prosecution duty to conjecture a motive.

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 58s
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "On Meredith's pillowcase bloody footprint"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 1m
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "A significant drop of Amanda 's blood found in the bathroom"
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Offline chami


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

guermantes wrote:
Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 48s
Knox's DNA between the blade and the handle (36-i) is very significant. It's not from sweat or contact.


Sweat comes in several incarnations. Under normal conditions, we all sweat a bit (perspiration) and it is almost like distilled water- evaporates without leaving a trace!

Under stress conditions, we all sweat that leaves a stain on clothes. When dry, it feels salty and we get a dry powdery feeling sometimes and this is mostly salt and some (very) little protein.

When the stress is more (exercising vigourously), we get not only salt, but lots of protein and it starts stinking after a days (gets infected and that gives the smell). But it is rarely a good source of DNA. Sometimes the stain looks yellow and that is caused by proteins.

Just skin contact (except with ectoderms) will not likely leave any trace of DNA.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 2m
Process Meredith, the bloody footprint on the pillowcase is Amanda's

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 26s
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "It was not a crime of impulse"

Sallyoo ‏@Sallyoo 3m
Crini coming up to the boil now - says it was not a crime of impulse

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
Nothing points to an agreed plan among the three that run out of control; the first cause was an aggression, a clash, impetus of rage

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 22s
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "There were petty reasons for the crime "
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 44s
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "They wanted to eliminate a person against whom they had already committed a very serious crime"

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 49s
The motive is not futile, the motive is terror, it is the consequence of the prior aggressive action in which they were involved.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 16s
Meredith Kercher was sober, fully awake. The others were at least 'smoked', a bit high, Rudy was there in the house.
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ouch, that is serious. If there was any doubt left, now we can be certain he will ask for life sentences. Which chapter are we by the way? This seems to be the last?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 59s
Rudy was not sober, quite high, a bit annoying, and was acting the same disgusting way he behaved downstairs days before.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki now
Meredith was the one triggering an argument because of the 'inpolite' invasion and behavior. She accused Knox.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 11s
Crini cites Laura Mezzetti about the 'annoyance' caused by Knox on house cleaning issues.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Broken for lunch?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 1m
Meredith process, Prosecutor Crini: "The contrast between Meredith and Amanda comes to matters of hygiene and cleanliness in the house."

The Nation @ 1m qn_lanazione
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "The conflict between Meredith and Amanda explodes when Rudy left the dirty bathroom"

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki now
Rudy Guede has no credibility, even if the SC is right that this cannot depend on his refusal to answer.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 29s
But experience tells statements of unreliable perps do contain revelations about the truth. The 'argument' between girls, why such context?

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki now
Requests to increase the penalty for calunnia to 4 years

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki now
Because of their staging and denials, they should not be given generic mitigation for murder.

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 5s
The murder is contextual, there was no premeditation, and no futile motive
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Interesting..fight over dirty bathroom...but I think not realistic as that is far from Meredith's bedroom. Other elements ring true. A very annoying Guede, and Meredith arguing with Knox over the impolite invasion. I think Meredith's bad mood caused by the others explains why she never called her mother or anyone else.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Prosecutor asks for the 26 year sentence, not "life":

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 29s
Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "Amanda and Raffaele are guilty, [I} ask for the punishment of 26 years for both"

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 1m
26 years for both for the murder

Machiavelli ‏@Machiavelli_Aki 52s
This means a total request of 30 y for Knox and 26 y for Sollecito

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione now
Meredith process, overall the prosecutor asked for 30 years for Amanda Knox and 26 for Raffaele Sollecito
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

How can the penalty for calunnia be increased if finalized by Cassazione?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I'm a little bit confused about that, too.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nick Squires ‏@NickSquires1 27s
Prosecutors call for 30 year prison sentence for #AmandaKnox in her retrial for murder of #MeredithKercher in Florence.

Barbie Latza Nadeau ‏@BLNadeau 14s
PM Crini asks for 30 years for #amandaknox and 26 years for #sollecito in new appellate trial in Florence for murder of #meredithkercher.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The actual sentence isn't fully finalised, due to the potential "in continuation" element.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Yep, indeed, ttrroonniicc, the rock thrown from the inside, impossible from the outside, to have landed in a bag under the table the other side. Weight, momentum of rock, 9 lbs, would have continued that trajectory into the room and not bounce to side. 100% agreement.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Court is now taking a lunch break?
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Offline max


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks so much. So not totally a life sentence after all. Although 30 yrs is pretty much a life sentence I think. Either way, that was impressive.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

'Convict Raffaele and Amanda'
Asked 26 years for him, 30 for her due to slander
Crini's request at the end of the reconstructions. Sollecito is not in court. For Knox sought more severe punishment for slandering Patrick Lumumba

CORRIERE FIORENTINO

I guess slander is considered to be an aggravating factor in Meredith's murder, and the 4-year penalty is meant as a punishment for that?

Here's Andrea Vogt:

Andrea Vogt ‏@andreavogt 3m
Florence prosecutors ask 30 yrs for #amandaknox (26 murder, 4 aggravated slander) and 26 for Sollecito for #meredithkercher murder.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

LineaGialla ‏@LineaGiallaLa7 1m

Processo #MeredithKercher: asked 30 years for AmandaKnox # and 26 for # RaffaeleSollecito. We talk about it tonight at 21:10
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Meredith would have been in a bad mood tired from the party the night before. I could understand her not holding back any anger and frustration and letting Knox hear it. It's. interesting to hear Crini say Guede used both hands so did not have a knife. I know there was finger bruising evidence on her elbow and throat. Is Crini saying that the pattern of the bruising show both the left and right hand use? This is simple but compelling logic. Even if he is only noting the DNA on the blue jacket elbow combined with finger bruising on the other elbow Rudy was occupied with restraining .
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:20 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

According to the Florence PG, murder of Kercher would have been committed with two different knives used by Knox and Sollecito, and Rudy Guede had sexually abused the girl. The PG said that Kercher was "treated like an animal."

According to the reconstruction of Crini, the blow to the throat of the victim was struck by Knox: "The DNA of Amanda is present in a very particular point between the handle and the blade of the knife. A position of DNA presence significant and disturbing" - said Prosecutor General


SPY TWINS
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Technically, the prosecutor is asking for the same sentence handed in by judge Paolo Micheli.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 1m
Meredith process, the lawyer Maori (Sollecito's defense): "PG's reconstruction is a reality that does not exist"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 6s
Meredith process, the lawyer Luciano Ghirga (Knox defense): "I oppose the argument of the prosecutor, Amanda is a stranger [alien?] to the crime"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 3m
Meredith process, the lawyer Maresca (Kercher family): "The indictment of DCEL pm confirms what we have always maintained "

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 27s
Meredith process, the lawyer Pacelli (Lumumba): "Calunnia of wicked and crafty Knox has ruined Lumumba's life"
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 2m
Meredith process, it is up to civil action in defense of Lumumba

Image
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Pacelli is speaking now:

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 2m
Meredith process, the lawyer Pacelli (Lumumba): "In this story, the second victim, after Meredith, is Lumumba"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 5m
Process Meredith, lawyer Pacelli (Lumumba): "Amanda masquerades as an impostor and actress"
(Amanda wears a mask of an impostor and actress)

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 7s
Lawyer Pacelli (Lumumba): "Witnesses said that Meredith was tired of the dirt that Amanda left in the bathroom"
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 47s
Lawyer Pacelli (Lumumba): "Witnesses said that after the murder, in the police station, all were crying, except Amanda and Raffaele"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 1m
Lawyer Pacelli (Lumumba ): "Witnesses said that Amanda often took men to the house"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 21s
Lawyer Pacelli (Lumumba ): "Witnesses spoke of a cosmetic bag left in the bathroom by Amanda with condoms and a vibrator"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 49s
Meredith process: lawyer Pacelli reads testimonials that talk about the use of cannabis and alcohol on the part of Amanda Knox
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 46s
Process Meredith, lawyer Pacelli: "Amanda Knox loved strong emotions and extreme experiences"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 51s
Process Meredith, lawyer Pacelli (Lumumba): "Amanda has lied about not using drugs"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 25s
Meredith process, lawyer Pacelli (Lumunba): "Amanda has a split personality, gentle (tenera, lovey-dovey) and evil (luceferina)"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 2m
Process Meredith, lawyer Pacelli (Lumumba): "The Amanda Knox of the night of the murder was a mixture of sex, drugs and alcohol"
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Offline chami


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
Found closer photo of the damage on inside inner of bedroom window shutter. Shows the large size of the heavy indentation.

Caused when the window was broken.

The break-in was staged. Because that mark in that position can only have been caused by the ~9lb rock
having been thrown from the inside. There's no angle from the outside. Also with the window/shutter closed
the joist of the window obstructs any posited trajectory of the rock from the outside.

Photo shows a secondary impression down and to the left of the heavy indentation. Shows the rock was
thrown into the middle/bottom of the window. Is in accordance with the size of the rock.






It is more than that.

Note the damage on the wood (4/5 from the left and 1/4 from the top), where the paint is gone and it has been claimed that the rock hit this part. This is probably correct as the damage appears fresh and clean. If you examine it carefully, you can conclude the direction the rock moved (inside to outside or vice-versa). It is clear to me that the rock moved from inside to the outside (from the pattern of damage to the wood and paint).
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione now
Process Meredith, lawyer Pacelli (Lumumba): "Amanda named Patrick spontaneously, no one suggested it to her"
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Offline McCall


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
Jester wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Statement posted by Knox supporter MaryH:
Quote:
For those how are interested in following the case, this was posted today on Amanda Knox’s blog:

“Today, my lawyers filed an appeal of my slander conviction with the European Court of Human Rights. My slander conviction was based on comments I made regarding Patrick Lumumba…comments that were coerced during a lengthy interrogation by Perugia police shortly before I was arrested in 2007. The interrogation took place in a language I barely spoke, without a lawyer present, and without the police informing me that I was a suspect in Meredith’s murder, which was a violation of my human rights. The police were the ones who first brought forth Patrick’s name saying they knew I was going to meet him the night of Meredith Kercher’s murder which was not true. I have stated many times that my original comments about Patrick were coerced by the police and not true.

“(Note: The European Court of Human Rights is an international court set up in 1959. It rules on individual or State applications alleging violations of the civil and political rights set out in the European Convention on Human Rights. Since 1998 it has sat as a full-time court and individuals can apply to it directly. The Court is located in Strasbourg, France.)

“(Further note: I was originally convicted of slander at my original trial in December 2009. My conviction for slander was upheld during my appeal that resulted in my acquittal of Meredith’s murder. The slander conviction was upheld by the Court of Cassation in March of 2013 and my appeal to the European Court of Human Rights was filed today.)”


Why would Knox make this claim: "The police were the ones who first brought forth Patrick’s name?" In the trial transcripts, she states that she was bopped on the back of the head twice by an unidentifiable person and then she brought forth Patrick's name.


Amanda Knox and her parents have claimed for the past years that she was threatened and physically abused during her interview that led to her arrest.

These claims are now suspiciously absent from her blog post. Now the focus shifts to the length of the interview, not having a lawyer present and not being fluent in Italian.

Barely a year later she would claim to be more qualified translating her own testimony in court than the court appointed translator.

Amanda Knox is a compulsive liar.


I doubt it is possible since the ECHR gets about 70,000 applications a year and rejects >99% of those but it would be enlightening to see what Knox's claims are. The ECHR is quite open and public but I think the number of crackpot applications they get probably makes it impossible for them to make all that nonsense public. Still if someone has time it would be worth seeing what their request for information procedures are like.
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Offline chami


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
How can the penalty for calunnia be increased if finalized by Cassazione?


I too think that they too are confused!

It is originally 1y but Hellman increased it to 4y. The high court confirmed this part.

I do not think they should discuss this at all but I am no lawyer!

They are just formalizing the 4y calunnia part (but this has already been confirmed by the high court)
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

chami wrote:
Ergon wrote:
How can the penalty for calunnia be increased if finalized by Cassazione?


I too think that they too are confused!

It is originally 1y but Hellman increased it to 4y. The high court confirmed this part.

I do not think they should discuss this at all but I am no lawyer!

They are just formalizing the 4y calunnia part (but this has already been confirmed by the high court)



No, Hellmann increased it to 3 years, not 4. So, Crini wants to increase Knox's calunnia sentence by one year.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The board's running a little better today, no?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The PG in his indictment asked for extra time for one of the accused [Knox], which should result in a sentence of four years, due to the attempt of "misdirection created in a non-extemporaneous" at the beginning and during the long court case. No extenuating circumstances, finally, would be granted to Amanda and Raffaele, in the light of different levels of investigations conducted by the Judiciary of Florence.


EXCITE (ITALY)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 5m
Process Meredith, lawyer Pacelli (Lumumba): "It is not true that Amanda was beaten by police"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 5m
Process Meredith, lawyer Pacelli (Lumumba): "Amanda imagines [it] when she accuses Lumumba and the police"
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
The board's running a little better today, no?


Yes, it's much faster today than yesterday. :)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 3m
Lawyer Pacelli (Lumumba): "Amanda said that Meredith had screamed before she died, before it was certain"
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
How can the penalty for calunnia be increased if finalized by Cassazione?



guess it was just agreed with somehow but since the entire ruling by Hellmann was cast aside it can be increased, I'm not following it right yet, as it is confusing this about sentence increases.

I think they deserve life, certainly after what they've been up to since release, it is as Knox in particular mocks the entire thing, has been, is and will.

Yet Sollecito, he is just as bad, I'm pretty sure, look at his shameless appearances on TV, at least he could have buttoned it, but he is entirely criminally-minded now.

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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Did they not find any evidence of stolen money from Kercher? Given Rudy alluded to stolen money that seemed more likely a scenario than a fight over cleanliness.

Also I thought that the fact they brought the knife with them could show premeditation at least of at least hazing Knox , and they both turned off their cellphones that night too.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I'm pleased he seems to have done a good job of mentioning everything and in strong ways.

Because what I kept thinking is all the amount of time and new people getting to judge on it, having not actually been there in court seeing Knox's antics and hearing her live in person, might make it so, that those judging don't get to feel the true severity, but, I think they do, I think getting shown the images of Meredith and what was done to her would bring the most sober-minded individual to tears.

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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I could see an all female lay jury being less likely to convict for some reason.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I notice long delays in receiving tweets from Florence (in the afternoon). Fast Pete has explained possible reasons in one of his posts on .org:

Fast Pete wrote:
Re any pause in Yummi's tweets.

Yummi has warned us that the wireless internet bandwidth inside and just outside the courtroom gets overloaded late in the day as the reporters get busy on their reports.

Yummi does have a way around this but it involves leaving the courtroom when key arguments might be made and walking some distance away. So there might be some slight delays.


http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=150510#p150510
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

His line about the Y halotype (or whatever it is called) DNA being good enough to convict Guede so it ought to be good enough to convict Raffaele and Knox by association was a good way to put it given the defense's emphasis on Rudy's guilt.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

KingSlayer wrote:
Did they not find any evidence of stolen money from Kercher? Given Rudy alluded to stolen money that seemed more likely a scenario than a fight over cleanliness.

Also I thought that the fact they brought the knife with them could show premeditation at least of at least hazing Knox , and they both turned off their cellphones that night too.


You'd think banks have files showing the numbers on notes, I wonder, I mean one often hears of notes being traced after robberies, etc.

The idea that after doing all of that to her, they like that serial killer in New York back in the 50's I think it was, who took the money on the basis of she will not need it now, pity to waste it.

I also do think and did think it was something like Crini describes, Meredith who got pissed off, but in as much as standing up for herself, Knox unable to take any form of criticism thinks in her mind that she won, because to her, Meredith was telling her she was bad, and because in her heart, that is what she feels about herself, she couldn't process it in a normal adult way, to me her entire demeanour shouts it out that she was never at home in her own skin, wasn't at all sure of herself, even when she is acting like a total C and appearing on TV, and definitely knows what she is doing and what she wants to achieve by it, still she is someone who comes across as being totally insecure, that insecurity to y mind, has always been the reason all of this awful stuff happened. People like this let everything het on top of their head then explode, or they build walls and boundaries, letting people in until only so far, because what they need is help, for Knox that is now too late, unless she absolutely owns up.

I expect, I would feel heavy if something like this happened to someone I know, yet in truth, the doer telling the truth, for real and being sorry for real, would be worth more to me, because I think it is a terrible thing to have on one's conscience. I do not believe that there are so many people who can avoid their conscience, but, I may be very wrong on that because there are a lot of nasties running about who seem to feel nothing at all.

On safety, I cannot see that these two make the world safe, knowing what they are capable of, there's no way I'd let them anywhere near me or anyone I know.

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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

KingSlayer wrote:
I could see an all female lay jury being less likely to convict for some reason.


I couldn't.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione 22s
Meredith process, lawyer Pacelli (Lumumba): "Amanda Knox is guilty of slander with the aggravating circumstance of search of impunity"

La Nazione ‏@qn_lanazione now
Meredith process, The hearing ends. The trial will resume December 16th
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ava wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
I could see an all female lay jury being less likely to convict for some reason.


I couldn't.


You don't think Raffe's lawyer being a female won't have any influence?

I think women tend to second guess themselves more than most males which might make it harder to vote for a conviction especially with a long sentence.
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Offline chami


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

KingSlayer wrote:
Did they not find any evidence of stolen money from Kercher? Given Rudy alluded to stolen money that seemed more likely a scenario than a fight over cleanliness.

Also I thought that the fact they brought the knife with them could show premeditation at least of at least hazing Knox , and they both turned off their cellphones that night too.


I am also inclined to think that money was the point of conflict. Both Italian and Swiss girls are fussy about cleanliness (no offence to any!) but neither British or Americans girls are known to be very ... (well, you know what I mean...)-- well I could be wrong and tender my ...

I do not think that it is wise to discard premediation fully... If not for murder, but something serious... at least to an extent it would have been acceptable to RS /RG as a great fun...
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Offline chami


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

KingSlayer wrote:
I could see an all female lay jury being less likely to convict for some reason.



Like Knox, RS also has some deadly charm about him.

You should not take Knox-Sollecito pairing as a random affair. Some of Knox's charm has worn off but Sollecito still carries his charm on his face.
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Did they not find any evidence of stolen money from Kercher? Given Rudy alluded to stolen money that seemed more likely a scenario than a fight over cleanliness.

Also I thought that the fact they brought the knife with them could show premeditation at least of at least hazing Knox , and they both turned off their cellphones that night too.


You'd think banks have files showing the numbers on notes, I wonder, I mean one often hears of notes being traced after robberies, etc.

The idea that after doing all of that to her, they like that serial killer in New York back in the 50's I think it was, who took the money on the basis of she will not need it now, pity to waste it.

I also do think and did think it was something like Crini describes, Meredith who got pissed off, but in as much as standing up for herself, Knox unable to take any form of criticism thinks in her mind that she won, because to her, Meredith was telling her she was bad, and because in her heart, that is what she feels about herself, she couldn't process it in a normal adult way, to me her entire demeanour shouts it out that she was never at home in her own skin, wasn't at all sure of herself, even when she is acting like a total C and appearing on TV, and definitely knows what she is doing and what she wants to achieve by it, still she is someone who comes across as being totally insecure, that insecurity to y mind, has always been the reason all of this awful stuff happened. People like this let everything het on top of their head then explode, or they build walls and boundaries, letting people in until only so far, because what they need is help, for Knox that is now too late, unless she absolutely owns up.

I expect, I would feel heavy if something like this happened to someone I know, yet in truth, the doer telling the truth, for real and being sorry for real, would be worth more to me, because I think it is a terrible thing to have on one's conscience. I do not believe that there are so many people who can avoid their conscience, but, I may be very wrong on that because there are a lot of nasties running about who seem to feel nothing at all.

On safety, I cannot see that these two make the world safe, knowing what they are capable of, there's no way I'd let them anywhere near me or anyone I know.


I still don't get the rape part of this thing because if they have a fight over cleanliness or something else, how do all 3 of them decide hey let's hold her down and let Rudy rape her. Once they decided to that it seems like they had already decided as a group to kill her because it isn't like she won't report it to cops.
It is a bizarre crime because they really had no chance of getting away with it but I guess that is where the drugs impacting judgement come into play.
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

chami wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
I could see an all female lay jury being less likely to convict for some reason.



Like Knox, RS also has some deadly charm about him.

You should not take Knox-Sollecito pairing as a random affair. Some of Knox's charm has worn off but Sollecito still carries his charm on his face.


lol well Sollecito seems like a smug rich kid creep to me. I don't see the charm. I guess he's fairly decent looking guy. Ladies do tend to be suckers for a pretty face unlike men.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

From Colleen Barry's AP report (take everything she writes with a pinch of salt):

Quote:
Crini alleges that Guede may have sparked anew tensions over cleanliness after he defecated in a toilet inside the hillside apartment and left it unflushed. Crini said Guede, who was friendly with young men living in a neighboring apartment, had done the same thing the previous week.

"It is an absolutely disgusting and incongruous habit that he evidently had," Crini said.

Testimony in previous trials had cited tensions between Kercher and Knox over the level of cleanliness in the house they shared with two Italian roommates.


ABC NEWS
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

chami wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Did they not find any evidence of stolen money from Kercher? Given Rudy alluded to stolen money that seemed more likely a scenario than a fight over cleanliness.

Also I thought that the fact they brought the knife with them could show premeditation at least of at least hazing Knox , and they both turned off their cellphones that night too.


I am also inclined to think that money was the point of conflict. Both Italian and Swiss girls are fussy about cleanliness (no offence to any!) but neither British or Americans girls are known to be very ... (well, you know what I mean...)-- well I could be wrong and tender my ...

I do not think that it is wise to discard premediation fully... If not for murder, but something serious... at least to an extent it would have been acceptable to RS /RG as a great fun...


Well I don't know if you saw that British paper who talked to some guy in Seattle who said Knox wanted to pay some guys to show up at her girlfriend's house wearing masks and brandishing knives on Aprils Fools Day to scare the girls. That sounds like how this could have started and Knox probably actually wanted to do it on Halloween and it appears she tried to get Kercher to hang out that night.

But somehow Knox had to convince Rudi to rape Kercher. It is hard to believe some dude would rape another girl because some girl he likes told him to but I guess that is how it went down.
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Didn't he go in the other girls bathroom rather than Knox and Meredith's? If so it is hard to see that setting Meredith off. I guess she could have gone into that one for some reason.
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Looks like Patrick's lawyer called her a she-devil again. lol That should set my man Bill Wilson off for a couple of weeks. I need to find a way back onto the Randi site to mess with those defenders of justice.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

chami wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Did they not find any evidence of stolen money from Kercher? Given Rudy alluded to stolen money that seemed more likely a scenario than a fight over cleanliness.

Also I thought that the fact they brought the knife with them could show premeditation at least of at least hazing Knox , and they both turned off their cellphones that night too.


I am also inclined to think that money was the point of conflict. Both Italian and Swiss girls are fussy about cleanliness (no offence to any!) but neither British or Americans girls are known to be very ... (well, you know what I mean...)-- well I could be wrong and tender my ...

I do not think that it is wise to discard premediation fully... If not for murder, but something serious... at least to an extent it would have been acceptable to RS /RG as a great fun...


That's quite a sweeping statement there Chami, and a very incorrect one too, obviously.

Have you ever lived in the UK or America?

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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Chami is just jealous of America b/c we are no. 1 ;)

I would have thought Brits were more like Europeans than Americans though.

Foxy Knoxy isn't your typical American...I see some Europeans imply that over at the True Justice website.

I never heard of any American college students doing a study abroad that isn't part of their university program until I heard about Knox. She has some lame parents to let her go over there at a young age without any kind of oversight.


Last edited by KingSlayer on Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

KingSlayer wrote:
zorba wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Did they not find any evidence of stolen money from Kercher? Given Rudy alluded to stolen money that seemed more likely a scenario than a fight over cleanliness.

Also I thought that the fact they brought the knife with them could show premeditation at least of at least hazing Knox , and they both turned off their cellphones that night too.


You'd think banks have files showing the numbers on notes, I wonder, I mean one often hears of notes being traced after robberies, etc.

The idea that after doing all of that to her, they like that serial killer in New York back in the 50's I think it was, who took the money on the basis of she will not need it now, pity to waste it.

I also do think and did think it was something like Crini describes, Meredith who got pissed off, but in as much as standing up for herself, Knox unable to take any form of criticism thinks in her mind that she won, because to her, Meredith was telling her she was bad, and because in her heart, that is what she feels about herself, she couldn't process it in a normal adult way, to me her entire demeanour shouts it out that she was never at home in her own skin, wasn't at all sure of herself, even when she is acting like a total C and appearing on TV, and definitely knows what she is doing and what she wants to achieve by it, still she is someone who comes across as being totally insecure, that insecurity to y mind, has always been the reason all of this awful stuff happened. People like this let everything het on top of their head then explode, or they build walls and boundaries, letting people in until only so far, because what they need is help, for Knox that is now too late, unless she absolutely owns up.

I expect, I would feel heavy if something like this happened to someone I know, yet in truth, the doer telling the truth, for real and being sorry for real, would be worth more to me, because I think it is a terrible thing to have on one's conscience. I do not believe that there are so many people who can avoid their conscience, but, I may be very wrong on that because there are a lot of nasties running about who seem to feel nothing at all.

On safety, I cannot see that these two make the world safe, knowing what they are capable of, there's no way I'd let them anywhere near me or anyone I know.


I still don't get the rape part of this thing because if they have a fight over cleanliness or something else, how do all 3 of them decide hey let's hold her down and let Rudy rape her. Once they decided to that it seems like they had already decided as a group to kill her because it isn't like she won't report it to cops.
It is a bizarre crime because they really had no chance of getting away with it but I guess that is where the drugs impacting judgement come into play.


For me the sexual assault is a clear indication that Knox felt criticised - real or only perceived - for her promiscuity by Meredith and she wanted to humiliate her.

Amanda Knox handles criticism extremely badly. She is an angry person.

I do not believe this was a spontaneous crime, I believe it was premeditated.

I think it is plausible to assume Amanda Knox felt threatened and maybe even humiliated by Meredith Kercher. Patrick Lumumba demoted Knox and at the same time he made efforts to hire Meredith. Knox expressed interest in Giacomo Silenzi but he chose Meredith over her. Meredith was popular, Amanda was not. Furthermore, Meredith wasn't afraid to address uncomfortable topics like explaining to Knox that she was expected to flush the toilet after using it.

So knowing all that, I believe the crime was the result of a culmination of events, not over only one particular event.

It is possible that an argument started because Meredith felt upset about Guede's presence in the house or maybe Meredith noticed her rent money was gone and suspected Amanda. Whatever the motive, I believe Meredith confronted Amanda and this was the perfect excuse for her to grow angry with her and she had her boys for backup. They might have felt offended as well if their "friend" Amanda was openly accused of theft or being disrespectful.

Whatever the reason, Sollecito and Knox had their phones previously turned off and they were both armed with knives.
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
zorba wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Did they not find any evidence of stolen money from Kercher? Given Rudy alluded to stolen money that seemed more likely a scenario than a fight over cleanliness.

Also I thought that the fact they brought the knife with them could show premeditation at least of at least hazing Knox , and they both turned off their cellphones that night too.


You'd think banks have files showing the numbers on notes, I wonder, I mean one often hears of notes being traced after robberies, etc.

The idea that after doing all of that to her, they like that serial killer in New York back in the 50's I think it was, who took the money on the basis of she will not need it now, pity to waste it.

I also do think and did think it was something like Crini describes, Meredith who got pissed off, but in as much as standing up for herself, Knox unable to take any form of criticism thinks in her mind that she won, because to her, Meredith was telling her she was bad, and because in her heart, that is what she feels about herself, she couldn't process it in a normal adult way, to me her entire demeanour shouts it out that she was never at home in her own skin, wasn't at all sure of herself, even when she is acting like a total C and appearing on TV, and definitely knows what she is doing and what she wants to achieve by it, still she is someone who comes across as being totally insecure, that insecurity to y mind, has always been the reason all of this awful stuff happened. People like this let everything het on top of their head then explode, or they build walls and boundaries, letting people in until only so far, because what they need is help, for Knox that is now too late, unless she absolutely owns up.

I expect, I would feel heavy if something like this happened to someone I know, yet in truth, the doer telling the truth, for real and being sorry for real, would be worth more to me, because I think it is a terrible thing to have on one's conscience. I do not believe that there are so many people who can avoid their conscience, but, I may be very wrong on that because there are a lot of nasties running about who seem to feel nothing at all.

On safety, I cannot see that these two make the world safe, knowing what they are capable of, there's no way I'd let them anywhere near me or anyone I know.


I still don't get the rape part of this thing because if they have a fight over cleanliness or something else, how do all 3 of them decide hey let's hold her down and let Rudy rape her. Once they decided to that it seems like they had already decided as a group to kill her because it isn't like she won't report it to cops.
It is a bizarre crime because they really had no chance of getting away with it but I guess that is where the drugs impacting judgement come into play.


For me the sexual assault is a clear indication that Knox felt criticised - real or only perceived - for her promiscuity by Meredith and she wanted to humiliate her.

Amanda Knox handles criticism extremely badly. She is an angry person.

I do not believe this was a spontaneous crime, I believe it was premeditated.

I think it is plausible to assume Amanda Knox felt threatened and maybe even humiliated by Meredith Kercher. Patrick Lumumba demoted Knox and at the same time he made efforts to hire Meredith. Knox expressed interest in Giacomo Silenzi but he chose Meredith over her. Meredith was popular, Amanda was not. Furthermore, Meredith wasn't afraid to address uncomfortable topics like explaining to Knox that she was expected to flush the toilet after using it.

So knowing all that, I believe the crime was the result of a culmination of events, not over only one particular event.

It is possible that an argument started because Meredith felt upset about Guede's presence in the house or maybe Meredith noticed her rent money was gone and suspected Amanda. Whatever the motive, I believe Meredith confronted Amanda and this was the perfect excuse for her to grow angry with her and she had her boys for backup. They might have felt offended as well if their "friend" Amanda was openly accused of theft or being disrespectful.

Whatever the reason, Sollecito and Knox had their phones previously turned off and they were both armed with knives.


Nell

This is kind of a delicate topic but do you think it is possible Knox used her vibrator on Kercher given Rudy manually raped her , and the vibrator out in the open was something else Kercher didn't like about Knox? I thought it was odd Knox made a unsolicited statement in court about the vibrator. To me that was indicative of the vibrator actually being a big deal to this crime if she is interested in trying to downplay it.
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:48 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

KingSlayer wrote:
Looks like Patrick's lawyer called her a she-devil again. lol That should set my man Bill Wilson off for a couple of weeks. I need to find a way back onto the Randi site to mess with those defenders of justice.

Good for her supporters to ge the chance to learn it was Lumumba's lawyer and not MIgnini who called her diabolical. Patrick said she smiled at him as they drove off in separate cars to prison. Guess he had good reason to think her evil. I was pleased to see Crini made no mention of foxy stuff. Does this mean US reporting will finally have to move on from the kiss and cartwheel? Amanda's defense will not be happy about this.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Kingslayer wrote:
But somehow Knox had to convince Rudi to rape Kercher. It is hard to believe some dude would rape another girl because some girl he likes told him to but I guess that is how it went down.


Only he didn't did he? He stopped long before it got to the raping stage, so Knox wasn't able to convince him to do it. Her power over him only went so far.

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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks so much, Guermantes, for all the Tweets today (again) and the press stories, you've been a star!!! You must be knackered.

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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

malvern wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Looks like Patrick's lawyer called her a she-devil again. lol That should set my man Bill Wilson off for a couple of weeks. I need to find a way back onto the Randi site to mess with those defenders of justice.

Good for her supporters to ge the chance to learn it was Lumumba's lawyer and not MIgnini who called her diabolical. Patrick said she smiled at him as they drove off in separate cars to prison. Guess he had good reason to think her evil. I was pleased to see Crini made no mention of foxy stuff. Does this mean US reporting will finally have to move on from the kiss and cartwheel? Amanda's defense will not be happy about this.


I never saw anything in American reporting about her sexed up behavior post murder. The British papers are the ones that really played that up. Most the American reporting is pretty cryptic about this case, just not a lot of interest and most of it seems sympathetic to Knox even though nobody would buy her story if she had committed the crime here and accused a harmless innocent black of murder. That is the last thing you would do in America if you were innocent. lol
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Kingslayer wrote:
But somehow Knox had to convince Rudi to rape Kercher. It is hard to believe some dude would rape another girl because some girl he likes told him to but I guess that is how it went down.


Only he didn't did he? He stopped long before it got to the raping stage, so Knox wasn't able to convince him to do it. Her power over him only went so far.


Well I thought he manually raped her? That is bad enough by itself. That was essentially why they had to kill her, or they thought they had to kill her, it seems.
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Offline Michael

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

KingSlayer wrote:
Michael wrote:
Kingslayer wrote:
But somehow Knox had to convince Rudi to rape Kercher. It is hard to believe some dude would rape another girl because some girl he likes told him to but I guess that is how it went down.


Only he didn't did he? He stopped long before it got to the raping stage, so Knox wasn't able to convince him to do it. Her power over him only went so far.


Well I thought he manually raped her? That is bad enough by itself. That was essentially why they had to kill her, or they thought they had to kill her, it seems.



Well, of course it's bad enough. But, that's not the point I'm making. The point is, Knox was unable to make him go the whole way. He was only willing to go so far and then he stopped. And once he stopped, the whole dynamic of the attack would have changed.

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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The US has replayed the kiss and talked about the cartwheel for the last 5 years. Anyone not doing their own research would believe that was the basis for her conviction. Crini thankfully made no mention of that tired worn out PR defence. It became their mantra ,they railroaded her based on her thoughtless and inappropriate behaviour. Crini didn't need any of that having presented the real damning evidence.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

KingSlayer wrote:
chami wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Did they not find any evidence of stolen money from Kercher? Given Rudy alluded to stolen money that seemed more likely a scenario than a fight over cleanliness.

Also I thought that the fact they brought the knife with them could show premeditation at least of at least hazing Knox , and they both turned off their cellphones that night too.


I am also inclined to think that money was the point of conflict. Both Italian and Swiss girls are fussy about cleanliness (no offence to any!) but neither British or Americans girls are known to be very ... (well, you know what I mean...)-- well I could be wrong and tender my ...

I do not think that it is wise to discard premediation fully... If not for murder, but something serious... at least to an extent it would have been acceptable to RS /RG as a great fun...


Well I don't know if you saw that British paper who talked to some guy in Seattle who said Knox wanted to pay some guys to show up at her girlfriend's house wearing masks and brandishing knives on Aprils Fools Day to scare the girls. That sounds like how this could have started and Knox probably actually wanted to do it on Halloween and it appears she tried to get Kercher to hang out that night.

But somehow Knox had to convince Rudi to rape Kercher. It is hard to believe some dude would rape another girl because some girl he likes told him to but I guess that is how it went down.


What if she tells RG it is a game where they attack Meredith and Meredith fights the assault... but really wants to?
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Offline KingSlayer


Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:37 am

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Michael wrote:
Kingslayer wrote:
But somehow Knox had to convince Rudi to rape Kercher. It is hard to believe some dude would rape another girl because some girl he likes told him to but I guess that is how it went down.


Only he didn't did he? He stopped long before it got to the raping stage, so Knox wasn't able to convince him to do it. Her power over him only went so far.


Well I thought he manually raped her? That is bad enough by itself. That was essentially why they had to kill her, or they thought they had to kill her, it seems.



Well, of course it's bad enough. But, that's not the pointing I'm making. The point is, Knox was unable to make him go the whole way. He was only willing to go so far and then he stopped. And once he stopped, the whole dynamic of the attack would have changed.


oh ok I thought I might have misunderstood how far he took it. You are right about that but still it would have been better not to kill her and be punished for what they did already than risk killing her. Rudy actually would have been the most punished one in this scenario. But , the drugs were a factor here no doubt.
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Offline KingSlayer


Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:37 am

Posts: 45

PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

dgfred wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
chami wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Did they not find any evidence of stolen money from Kercher? Given Rudy alluded to stolen money that seemed more likely a scenario than a fight over cleanliness.

Also I thought that the fact they brought the knife with them could show premeditation at least of at least hazing Knox , and they both turned off their cellphones that night too.


I am also inclined to think that money was the point of conflict. Both Italian and Swiss girls are fussy about cleanliness (no offence to any!) but neither British or Americans girls are known to be very ... (well, you know what I mean...)-- well I could be wrong and tender my ...

I do not think that it is wise to discard premediation fully... If not for murder, but something serious... at least to an extent it would have been acceptable to RS /RG as a great fun...


Well I don't know if you saw that British paper who talked to some guy in Seattle who said Knox wanted to pay some guys to show up at her girlfriend's house wearing masks and brandishing knives on Aprils Fools Day to scare the girls. That sounds like how this could have started and Knox probably actually wanted to do it on Halloween and it appears she tried to get Kercher to hang out that night.

But somehow Knox had to convince Rudi to rape Kercher. It is hard to believe some dude would rape another girl because some girl he likes told him to but I guess that is how it went down.


What if she tells RG it is a game where they attack Meredith and Meredith fights the assault... but really wants to?


That actually sounds feasible. He doesn't seem like a rapist type for some reason to me. But, you would think he would just say that in court? That would be more believable than what he said about leaving to go bathroom.
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Offline malvern


Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:27 pm

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

KingSlayer wrote:
Michael wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Michael wrote:
Kingslayer wrote:
But somehow Knox had to convince Rudi to rape Kercher. It is hard to believe some dude would rape another girl because some girl he likes told him to but I guess that is how it went down.


Only he didn't did he? He stopped long before it got to the raping stage, so Knox wasn't able to convince him to do it. Her power over him only went so far.


Well I thought he manually raped her? That is bad enough by itself. That was essentially why they had to kill her, or they thought they had to kill her, it seems.



Well, of course it's bad enough. But, that's not the pointing I'm making. The point is, Knox was unable to make him go the whole way. He was only willing to go so far and then he stopped. And once he stopped, the whole dynamic of the attack would have changed.


oh ok I thought I might have misunderstood how far he took it. You are right about that but still it would have been better not to kill her and be punished for what they did already than risk killing her. Rudy actually would have been the most punished one in this scenario. But , the drugs were a factor here no doubt.

When you have a group or mob mentality responsibility for actions blur and more risks are taken Crini believes the panic over the scream caused the fatal blow.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

KingSlayer wrote:
zorba wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Did they not find any evidence of stolen money from Kercher? Given Rudy alluded to stolen money that seemed more likely a scenario than a fight over cleanliness.

Also I thought that the fact they brought the knife with them could show premeditation at least of at least hazing Knox , and they both turned off their cellphones that night too.


You'd think banks have files showing the numbers on notes, I wonder, I mean one often hears of notes being traced after robberies, etc.

The idea that after doing all of that to her, they like that serial killer in New York back in the 50's I think it was, who took the money on the basis of she will not need it now, pity to waste it.

I also do think and did think it was something like Crini describes, Meredith who got pissed off, but in as much as standing up for herself, Knox unable to take any form of criticism thinks in her mind that she won, because to her, Meredith was telling her she was bad, and because in her heart, that is what she feels about herself, she couldn't process it in a normal adult way, to me her entire demeanour shouts it out that she was never at home in her own skin, wasn't at all sure of herself, even when she is acting like a total C and appearing on TV, and definitely knows what she is doing and what she wants to achieve by it, still she is someone who comes across as being totally insecure, that insecurity to y mind, has always been the reason all of this awful stuff happened. People like this let everything het on top of their head then explode, or they build walls and boundaries, letting people in until only so far, because what they need is help, for Knox that is now too late, unless she absolutely owns up.

I expect, I would feel heavy if something like this happened to someone I know, yet in truth, the doer telling the truth, for real and being sorry for real, would be worth more to me, because I think it is a terrible thing to have on one's conscience. I do not believe that there are so many people who can avoid their conscience, but, I may be very wrong on that because there are a lot of nasties running about who seem to feel nothing at all.

On safety, I cannot see that these two make the world safe, knowing what they are capable of, there's no way I'd let them anywhere near me or anyone I know.


I still don't get the rape part of this thing because if they have a fight over cleanliness or something else, how do all 3 of them decide hey let's hold her down and let Rudy rape her. Once they decided to that it seems like they had already decided as a group to kill her because it isn't like she won't report it to cops.
It is a bizarre crime because they really had no chance of getting away with it but I guess that is where the drugs impacting judgement come into play.



The thing is, the way I see it, Knox was not trying to be unfriendly, a mechanism more likely, was working in her that she kind of had little control of once it kicked in, because she wanted to be accepted, to be outcast drove her, I think, into trying more and more to be wanted, so whereas, Meredith had been out at the right time, socialising, having fun, which means with others, be they British and others too, which it is known she did, Knox & Sollecito were holed up together, now in principle of course there is nothing wrong with that, only here it demarcates the line between what Knox was getting into, as to assimilating there and what Meredith was into, unlike what Knox tried to get people to believe, and this through her family too, and supporters, she in no way preferred to hang out with Italians, or whoever else, she was coming face to face with herself and couldn't handle it, because to others she seemed disjointed and anti-social, in that she couldn't take criticism so just laughed at people, I reckon she didn't really mean to do that, she just had no manners and did not know how to integrate in a positive fashion. So where Meredith did probably what others did in having fun with Halloween, well then, that's that, done, next, but Knox somehow got it in her head to surprise Meredith and fun it up, when, Halloween was gone, to late, I reckon Meredith being tired, would have thought Knox was nuts, I mean everyone is recovering, it's like someone coming around on Boxing Day acting like it is Christmas day when everyone had their party and is knackered. Meredith's reaction, which she would have had a difficult job of reacting to in any other way, just as anyone else would too, probably triggered even more relacitrant behaviour by/in Knox, who would have lodged into stubborn mode and the who does she think she is talking to mode, but I reckon Meredith walked right into a kind of madhouse, where it was as though the parents were out and the kids would turn the house upside down, the house being shared, would mean Knox acting like that and inviting others to do whatever they liked, would have set the grounds for all of the horror that ensued. I think Meredith would have ended up standing in the middle of it, utterly exasperated by Knox's behaviour, not wanting to be taking part but being forced to because the atmosphere Knox allowed to be created in that house meant Meredith could not take a step anywhere without entering a really weird and bad atmosphere (was not allowed to do her own thing in the privacy iof her own home = no privacy at all). It may even be that Knox did think up a prank to please Meredith so that Knox might be her FRIEND again... but dressing up in Halloween sheets and masks or whatever, after Halloween had been and gone and you are doing or putting on this show for someone who is tired from already having celebrated it, may mean Knox reacted in a real bad way, to Meredith's rejection, I believe Knox has a rejection complex, that is derived from the most important events in her life, the split up between her parents, and that is exactly what makes her timid, unsure and prone to acting out weird behaviour, being loud, out of place, it's not that she wants to be that way, but she probably felt alone all of her life no matter what anyone told her, since she felt rejected by her father, it happens to lots of children, they think it is their fault, they cannot get over it because mom and dad argue, row, fight, and do not get on, even after separation or divorce, in the child's heart, there is a wish that they could all be a happy family unit again, but the dream has gone and when things do not go well a person can grow up to have that lingering frustration permeating most of the important events and steps in their adult life. So when Knox freaks out, it is nothing to do with those she harms, it is just exploded onto the innocent person's canvass, but the real picture is the childhood hurts that were left and she struggled in pretending to be okay, but never was, they ignored it more or less as humans because that is more often than not what a lot of adults do, they have their own grown up desires, they had kids but end up hating one another, they move off and get someone else (because t many the adult/romantic relationsahips, take preference even over children, so heavily shit is the sex drive, behind it i the adult's confusing love with lust), and say, ah, Jack's all right, hey Jack you're okay, you are well-looked after, you aren't the only one, or whatever. So Knox removed from all of the surrogate props, holding her in her learned sense of identity, unravels and becomes out of control. In Seattle she didn't mix with girls, she saddled up among a group of 10 young jocks and laughed and drank and talked a lot of fun shit with them, no, that was not healthy behaviour, positioning oneself as person of the female gender amongst a crew of 10 guys, why would a woman, a female do that other than to have all of the attention?
She then says, well, I like him too (referring to the downstairs neighbour who was getting into something with Meredith, Knox said I like him too, but you can have him, as though it could be her who decided and dictated such matters. Well, on that basis consider how she was then, when to her, it became evident that she did NOT have total power over everyone and that in the bar she was becoming disliked too, in her tiny little mind she then imagined everyone was in a conspiracy against her. So hey, what's this, Meredith's liked and is invited to serve cocktails and I'm getting demoted, that guy downstair likes her over me? What? She as Patrick said, wanted to be the centre of everything, the Queen Bee.
She had Sollecito but bumping into Guede hauls him into the house that was not all hers to do that all the time with, and so considers nobody when exposing them to whoever it was she decided to bring into the house. That person had no idea about anyone or anything. She acted basically as un-grown-up.

Guede, he took advantage of opportunity and was not very bright, given over to impulses, and taking part in Knox's oh so very much fun thing, he allowed himself to be drawn in, as a kind of excuse he listened to her, I truly believe when Knox said: He wanted her, she meant him, obviously not Patrick, but I always think she egged him on by teasing him through flirting, I really wouldn't be surprised if Knox has somehow excited him sexually, and that on purpose. I have always thought she played that kind of game not just kids but adults do when they say, yeah sure he likes you. Really? How do ya know? He said so. Yes, go on, she likes you, she said. Doing stuff like that with the wrong person can cause a lot of damage, because Guede was probably led up the garden path with such shit. Guede has shown that he is an equally large piece of shit, by not speaking up, and obviously telling lies.
He could have saved so much torment, but he has been selfish just like the other pair of shites.

They were all involved, and no matter who it was shoved the knives, each one is equally responsible.

A judge can dish out a heavier sentence than what a prosecutor called for, and I hope this happens, because they need to tell the truth. Then to me it would make no difference how long they spend in jail, they are the ones who have the events indented in their spirit and souls and minds.
It is incredible how adults can end up behaving in an atmosphere of childish mischief, except that element mixed with hard drugs makes it anything but childlike.

_________________
Ignorantia juris non excusa ~
Ignorance of the law is no excuse


Last edited by zorba on Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

KingSlayer wrote:
Nell

This is kind of a delicate topic but do you think it is possible Knox used her vibrator on Kercher given Rudy manually raped her , and the vibrator out in the open was something else Kercher didn't like about Knox? I thought it was odd Knox made a unsolicited statement in court about the vibrator. To me that was indicative of the vibrator actually being a big deal to this crime if she is interested in trying to downplay it.


Hi KingSlayer,

There is no indication the vibrator was used in the crime, but I agree that Knox desperately tried to downplay its importance, just like she downplayed her deteriorating relationship with Meredith.

It seems to be a sore point.

I remember Edda Mellas defending the honour of her daughter, saying she was a late bloomer, shy and inexperienced sexually. She also had a dig at Meredith in an attempt to show she was no better than Amanda.

Years have passed since then and Amanda Knox has published a book in which she describes herself as promiscuous, having sex with guys whose full names she did not even know.

I don't care if Knox has Herpes, AIDS or one-night stands. That's her business. I do mind if someone asks for support based on lies though. I sometimes wonder if Edda is proud of her daughter's book, writing about the colour of her underwear and fleeting relationships. Amanda Knox makes her parents look rather silly.
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Offline KingSlayer


Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:37 am

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

malvern wrote:
The US has replayed the kiss and talked about the cartwheel for the last 5 years. Anyone not doing their own research would believe that was the basis for her conviction. Crini thankfully made no mention of that tired worn out PR defence. It became their mantra ,they railroaded her based on her thoughtless and inappropriate behaviour. Crini didn't need any of that having presented the real damning evidence.


Well I thought that was compelling evidence. That isn't how innocent people typically act after a murder of a friend so it is reasonable to view it as incriminating.

He didn't talk about her post murder behavior at all? lol I would have. I would really have no problem convicting her on that alone. Clearly Knox has lost some of her marbles. :)
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

It's not that it isn't important but her PR team has managed to keep it out front and large hiding the real mountain of evidence behind it. Not mentioning it at all will leave them scrambling. Now reporting will have to include staging, moving of the body luminol footprints etc. Probably new information for many.
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Nell wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Nell

This is kind of a delicate topic but do you think it is possible Knox used her vibrator on Kercher given Rudy manually raped her , and the vibrator out in the open was something else Kercher didn't like about Knox? I thought it was odd Knox made a unsolicited statement in court about the vibrator. To me that was indicative of the vibrator actually being a big deal to this crime if she is interested in trying to downplay it.


Hi KingSlayer,

There is no indication the vibrator was used in the crime, but I agree that Knox desperately tried to downplay its importance, just like she downplayed her deteriorating relationship with Meredith.

It seems to be a sore point.

I remember Edda Mellas defending the honour of her daughter, saying she was a late bloomer, shy and inexperienced sexually. She also had a dig at Meredith in an attempt to show she was no better than Amanda.

Years have passed since then and Amanda Knox has published a book in which she describes herself as promiscuous, having sex with guys whose full names she did not even know.

I don't care if Knox has Herpes, AIDS or one-night stands. That's her business. I do mind if someone asks for support based on lies though. I sometimes wonder if Edda is proud of her daughter's book, writing about the colour of her underwear and fleeting relationships. Amanda Knox makes her parents look rather silly.


lol Knox seems to have no embarrassment talking about sex with her parents. That is pretty atypical for most young people. lol I think I read somehwere Knox was braggint to her parents about how some of the women in prison wanted to have sex with her because she was so pretty.

If I was accused of murdering my roommate, I wouldn't write a book proclaiming my innocence in which I talk about various sexual encounters. But they say write what you know and Foxy does know about sex. lol Foxy probably has "Sex" listed on her resume under "Special Skills"
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

malvern wrote:
It's not that it isn't important but her PR team has managed to keep it out front and large hiding the real mountain of evidence behind it. Not mentioning it at all will leave them scrambling. Now reporting will have to include staging, moving of the body luminol footprints etc. Probably new information for many.


I get your point but he's probably not worried about what the public at large thinks. You pretty much have to be a conspiracy theorist to think she's innocent.

I feel bad for these Bill Wilson types because they are slaves to worrying about Knox's fate. She has all these strangers doing time for her crime too.
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Must be Tuesday
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Zorba

Good points. Rudy could have been a hero that night if he put a stop to it as I think he could have easily taken Raffe and Meredith could have handled Knox one on one. I personally would have thought at least 1 of the 3 would have had some moral qualms about what they were doing and tried to diffuse it but I've never been a group kind of a person and I guess the group dynamic is strong for certain personality types as somebody pointed out already.
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

malvern wrote:
Must be Tuesday


sorry I get a little carried away when I talk about Miss Knox. She is ripe for satire but unfortunately it only for her heinous crime that we know about her.

This PMF seems a little more laid back than the other one not that I have anything against the other one.
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ok guys lunch time, see you next time maybe whenever the defense presents although I'm not too interested in their presentation.

Take care.
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Gosh KIngslayer hope you have nothing against the other board. Can you share your timeline of the crime,?nothing too detailed .
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

malvern wrote:
Gosh KIngslayer hope you have nothing against the other board. Can you share your timeline of the crime,?nothing too detailed .


I am Dr. Tesla. I thought it would be fairly obvious.

I think everybody knows what team I play for.

As the prosecutor said today, timeline is silly to get into too much detail on. Once you prove they were at the cottage they are toast.

Me and Peggy at the other PMF had a disagreement over something non-Knox related, politics related. We have different personality types too, I suspect lol

It's cool though. She's a liberal in Seattle and I am a conservative in South Carolina. We come from different worlds.
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Regards to "Bill WIlson" and Bruce FIller
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:14 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

lol ask Bill Wilson and Bruce about Dr Tesla.

Do you post at other PMF? You remind me of The Bard or smacker. Kind of intense and somewhat hostile and suspicious of new folk?

One of the last times I posted on other PMF Mach/Yummi started statement analyzing me. I thought I was on trial for murder. lol He's a cool guy though I enjoy reading his posts on Randi. It is funny especially in comparison to the stuff crazy Bill Wilson etc say. He doesn't fit in at that website with those people.


Last edited by KingSlayer on Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ava


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

KingSlayer wrote:
Ava wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
I could see an all female lay jury being less likely to convict for some reason.


I couldn't.


You don't think Raffe's lawyer being a female won't have any influence?

I think women tend to second guess themselves more than most males which might make it harder to vote for a conviction especially with a long sentence.


Sounds kind of stereotypical.
Bongiorno might me a good speaker, but I don't think she's that good of a lawyer really.
Also, I'm not so sure about Raffaele's 'pretty face'...
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:21 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ava wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Ava wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
I could see an all female lay jury being less likely to convict for some reason.


I couldn't.


You don't think Raffe's lawyer being a female won't have any influence?

I think women tend to second guess themselves more than most males which might make it harder to vote for a conviction especially with a long sentence.


Sounds kind of stereotypical.
Bongiorno might me a good speaker, but I don't think she's that good of a lawyer really.
Also, I'm not so sure about Raffaele's 'pretty face'...


lol I threw that out partially to just tweak the women on here. ;)

But I don't trust women, i've been burned too many times :( But I think they'll get this one right, pretty easy case really. DNA on the victim's bra clasp, victim DNA on blade of knife in accused's house. lol couldn't be in two worse spots really
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Hi, Kingslayer, and welcome again, if I haven't welcomed you yet. (Been sick a while) Yes, I know what side you're on (Justice) and your politics is no concern here. At this point in time, whatever differences there were between both PMF's are, as you say, a matter of style :)
Though, completely OT, I'm on the RonPaul/RalphNader nexus, no brickbats please :)
And, considering my theory of the crime, which is my own and not presented in court, I believe the transport of the knife and the eventual sexual assault shows premeditation, orchestrated by Knox. Reading her stories, and that's one way how I read people, she is one sick person.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

A question(s) for our Italian legal specialists:
Thought the 3yrs sentence (already served) be increased to 4? I thought it already was a 'definitive' sentence?
Would this not constitute double jeopardy? (SC annulled murder acquittal, confirmed calunnia?)
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Offline malvern


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Your comments today were all going the same direction , the second bathroom foxy talk. I love meeting new people but usually can't be manipulated.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ava wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Ava wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
I could see an all female lay jury being less likely to convict for some reason.


I couldn't.


You don't think Raffe's lawyer being a female won't have any influence?

I think women tend to second guess themselves more than most males which might make it harder to vote for a conviction especially with a long sentence.


Sounds kind of stereotypical.
Bongiorno might me a good speaker, but I don't think she's that good of a lawyer really.
Also, I'm not so sure about Raffaele's 'pretty face'...


The theory is a reduced sentence for Raffaele, full sentence for Amanda, based on the 'pretty face'. In theory, since the professional judges are there to make sure the verdicts are a) Supreme Court friendly b) explainable, therefore I don't see any overturning.

However, sentencing is a different matter, where the judges have leeway. Noted that Crini emphasized Knox at great length, Sollecito barely. They can't acquit one without the other, but, can they reduce his sentence, as him being manipulated by Knox?

No. They were all there, they will all receive equal sentences. He burned his bridges with his stupid book and subsequent behavior. Visiting Meredith's grave? I think these judges will do the right thing.
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Offline chami


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Michael wrote:
Kingslayer wrote:
But somehow Knox had to convince Rudi to rape Kercher. It is hard to believe some dude would rape another girl because some girl he likes told him to but I guess that is how it went down.


Only he didn't did he? He stopped long before it got to the raping stage, so Knox wasn't able to convince him to do it. Her power over him only went so far.


I think that Rudy was told that it is a fun game only. Only AK and RS were prepared. I still think that RG was not really prepared for the end.
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Offline chami


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

KingSlayer wrote:
Zorba

Good points. Rudy could have been a hero that night if he put a stop to it as I think he could have easily taken Raffe and Meredith could have handled Knox one on one. I personally would have thought at least 1 of the 3 would have had some moral qualms about what they were doing and tried to diffuse it but I've never been a group kind of a person and I guess the group dynamic is strong for certain personality types as somebody pointed out already.


RG is intellectually handicapped. He cannot act independently and must do what the others are doing. But he is not alone.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:56 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ava wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
I could see an all female lay jury being less likely to convict for some reason.


I couldn't.


I agree with KingSlayer, but not because they're "all" females. The Massei court had female jurors, who seemed to come down hard on both perps, and in the Hellmann, it was the males who seemed to want to be herself's defenders.

Meredith was a woman. They'll remember that, but also, I just agree on the basis of them doing the right thing.

Maybe, just maybe, there will be some element of 'reasonable doubt' re the bra clasp but the DNA is conclusive, IMO, period.

We've just all been on this rollercoaster before.

ETA: I agree with Ava, not Kingslayer, sorry. The flu knocked me out more than I thought and not recovered yet, my bad :)

Of course a jury of women could convict Raffaele, for the reasons I gave.
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Hi, Kingslayer, and welcome again, if I haven't welcomed you yet. (Been sick a while) Yes, I know what side you're on (Justice) and your politics is no concern here. At this point in time, whatever differences there were between both PMF's are, as you say, a matter of style :)
Though, completely OT, I'm on the RonPaul/RalphNader nexus, no brickbats please :)
And, considering my theory of the crime, which is my own and not presented in court, I believe the transport of the knife and the eventual sexual assault shows premeditation, orchestrated by Knox. Reading her stories, and that's one way how I read people, she is one sick person.


oh man I hope I didn't stir up a war between the PMFs

lol well I wasn't planning on talking politics on here. I like Ron Paul on most things but he's probably a little too dovish on foreign policy. We need somebody in between Paul and John McCain on foreign policy, not too dovish and not too hawkish, a happy medium. Paul and Nader seem pretty much opposite of each other on most everything but foreign policy though.

The thing on the other PMF was somebody was saying Steve Moore is stupid because he thinks having an armed guard is schools is a good idea. I said that I think Moore is dumb but that idea isn't necessarily a dumb idea if the goal is to protect kids from nutjobs. It is at least worthy of consideration but Peggy wigged out over it. She's very anti-gun I guess. I don't own guns myself and I don't particularly care about the issue in general but she made it seem like I was on there to tout guns. lol Some people just get too emotional about politics and I dont think Peggy has much contact with people in Seattle her hold different political beliefs. South Carolina is a red state but it does have good political diversity and we all or most of us can get along despite disagreements. :)
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ava wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Ava wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
I could see an all female lay jury being less likely to convict for some reason.


I couldn't.


You don't think Raffe's lawyer being a female won't have any influence?

I think women tend to second guess themselves more than most males which might make it harder to vote for a conviction especially with a long sentence.


Sounds kind of stereotypical.
Bongiorno might me a good speaker, but I don't think she's that good of a lawyer really.
Also, I'm not so sure about Raffaele's 'pretty face'...


I cannot reply to all posts, cannot keep up, I also do not think BonG is anything like brilliant.
The angles upped by Mr Crini, that is the stuff I like.

Then on Sollecito, also, all as I see in his face is two-faces, at least, charming is the last thing I'd have said anyone with eye balls in their head would say about him.

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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

chami wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Zorba

Good points. Rudy could have been a hero that night if he put a stop to it as I think he could have easily taken Raffe and Meredith could have handled Knox one on one. I personally would have thought at least 1 of the 3 would have had some moral qualms about what they were doing and tried to diffuse it but I've never been a group kind of a person and I guess the group dynamic is strong for certain personality types as somebody pointed out already.


RG is intellectually handicapped. He cannot act independently and must do what the others are doing. But he is not alone.


Well that isn't really true because he definitely was independent in the legal process and really is the smartest of the 3 post murder, by far. It does help he didn't actually stab the girl but if they had not found the knife the other 2 could have pinned that on him too.

So he was capable of being a hero because he is capable of being independent. My feeling is he is the type of person who is useless when he is drunk/high and probably more aggressive than he is when he is sober.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

A common punk IMO. RS seems the one that isn't 'all there' IMO.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
A question(s) for our Italian legal specialists:
Thought the 3yrs sentence (already served) be increased to 4? I thought it already was a 'definitive' sentence?
Would this not constitute double jeopardy? (SC annulled murder acquittal, confirmed calunnia?)



Well if they increase then it has to be legal or there is no way they'd do it, obviously, so the Hellmann ruling was thrown out, I cannot see how the Hellmann ruling on Knox's slagging was upheld.

Still, she deserves 15 for that alone, Patrick could have been given life, to help a man en up in jail fopr life, a 4-year stretch which is no stretch at all, HUH?

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Last edited by zorba on Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

malvern wrote:
Your comments today were all going the same direction , the second bathroom foxy talk. I love meeting new people but usually can't be manipulated.


Ok well I am not following your proposed theory of how I am trying to manipulate you.

I only mentioned the 2nd bathroom is where Rudi went and how probable is it that Meredith got angry about that, and I believe James Raper just made the same observation on True Justice in a front page post. I think the motive is debatable and not something you have to nail down with specificity.

For some reason I thought Mignini's theory of motive would be carried over to this trial and it was interesting he had his own take on it. Obviously Massei has his own too.

I also thought they might make the stolen money the cause of the confrontation as I posted in a previous comment on here.
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

26-30 years seems incredibly lenient for killing your roommate. They complain about Italian justice system but they are getting a huge break there. I think Knox would at least be considered for death penalty in the States.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

30 years is the life sentence IIRC.

Here is one: We have the wet washing. Maybe Meredith put in some washing and saw the poo. That is just as possible as the money IMO... but lacks the money transaction later that IMO proves AK had EXTRA money.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:00 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

The stolen money issue was brought up by Guede and quite a few of us agree with that here. As a theory, of course. The Mignini motive of sex game went wrong only went so far as seem unusable in court (Comodi) but I am of the opinion that Amanda Knox, high on drugs, planned a sexual assault, and took a knife along.

So sue me. BTW, it was Bill Williams, not "Bill Wilson", who continually advised me to 'consult with a lawyer', LOL.
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

You can see the toilet from the washing machine?

It is possible she went in there to use the hair dryer like Knox claimed to do.

It isn't improbable she would go in there but I could see her getting MORE angy about missing money than the poo given she ostensibly didn't know how to talk to Knox about her filthy habits,, according to the English friends. But roommates lose it with each other on trivial matters all the time but there is enough conflict possiblity there to support a confrontation over something.
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Offline zorba


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

chami wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Zorba

Good points. Rudy could have been a hero that night if he put a stop to it as I think he could have easily taken Raffe and Meredith could have handled Knox one on one. I personally would have thought at least 1 of the 3 would have had some moral qualms about what they were doing and tried to diffuse it but I've never been a group kind of a person and I guess the group dynamic is strong for certain personality types as somebody pointed out already.


RG is intellectually handicapped. He cannot act independently and must do what the others are doing. But he is not alone.



Yes well I agree, in part, I cannot know what he really is all about intellectually, but him not helping out, when it seems just about everyone realises it wasn't him shoving knives, shows a certain element, the truth is, he was in no position to act any other way than he has, it is not his IQ that arranged what he got, his lawyer made it clear to him what his options were, Knox and Sollecito thought they could get away with all of it, but Guede never had that option, so after advice from his lawyer, he just decided to take that advice, his lawyer helped him, but a lawyer who had not advised him to do this, in his position, would have been real useless. He simply had no choice, but as it went, it worked out best for him, yet he admits nothing, reveals nothing real, he just hints without making any kind of real commitment, nothing van be done with what he hinted at.

His handicap then in my mind is self-chosen, I expect he is no less intelligent than the Praying in Court Thing for All to See and the Permanent Holiday Going Knife Collector but he isn't the sharpest tool in the box either.

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Last edited by zorba on Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/galler ... ge_id=3426

Maybe... another step or two.
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:13 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
The stolen money issue was brought up by Guede and quite a few of us agree with that here. As a theory, of course. The Mignini motive of sex game went wrong only went so far as seem unusable in court (Comodi) but I am of the opinion that Amanda Knox, high on drugs, planned a sexual assault, and took a knife along.

So sue me. BTW, it was Bill Williams, not "Bill Wilson", who continually advised me to 'consult with a lawyer', LOL.


lol Bill Williams had an awesome rant on J Randi earlier today. You have to know Knox's defense lawyer cut and paste that for his presentation. lol

Nobody lays down the TOD logic like ole Bill Williams.
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

zorba wrote:
chami wrote:
KingSlayer wrote:
Zorba

Good points. Rudy could have been a hero that night if he put a stop to it as I think he could have easily taken Raffe and Meredith could have handled Knox one on one. I personally would have thought at least 1 of the 3 would have had some moral qualms about what they were doing and tried to diffuse it but I've never been a group kind of a person and I guess the group dynamic is strong for certain personality types as somebody pointed out already.


RG is intellectually handicapped. He cannot act independently and must do what the others are doing. But he is not alone.



Yes well I agree, in part, I cannot know what he really is all about intellectually, but him not helping out, when it seems just about everyone realises it wasn't him shoving knives, shows a certain element, the truth is, he was in no position to act any other way than he has, it is not his IQ that arranged what he got, his lawyer made it clear to him what his options were, Knox and Sollecito thought they could get away with all of it, but Guede never had that option, so after advice from his lawyer, he just decided to take that advice, his lawyer helped him, but a lawyer who had not advised him to do this, in his position, would have been real useless. He simply had no choice, but as it went, it worked out best for him, yet he admits nothing, reveals nothing real, he just hints without making any kind of real commitment, nothing van be done with what he hinted at.

His handicap then in my mind is self-chosen, I expect he is no less intelligent than the Praying in Court Thing for All to See and the Permanent Holiday Going Knife Collector but he isn't the sharpest tool in the box either.


This is probably first murder that involved 3 people from different countries who barely knew each other killing somebody else they barely knew who from different country. And Knox and Kercher were probably going to be back in their home countries in 7-8 weeks from the murder which makes the murder seem even more trivial espeically if there was a jealousy thing by Knox of Kercher. Just bad luck for Kercher to come into contact with this Axis of Dumb in such a short time period and there was a night when everybody else was out of town but them.

You are right about Rudi not really having a choice once the legal process got started.
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

dgfred wrote:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=3426

Maybe... another step or two.


Probably could smell it from there. She might have known about his habit given he hung out with her boyfriend downstairs.

I can see Meredith trying to watch tv or study for class and Knox coming in and singing loudly and playing her guitar, etc and Meredith going off on her.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:36 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Why would Meredith even be mad about poo. Her toilet was down the hall. I'm sure she noticed the missing money shortly after she got home, then Knox and Co. arrived right after, to party. My guess is, Amanda told Guede that Meredith 'wanted to get together' with him.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Consternation as Sallyoo sez:

Quote:
Sallyoo wrote:Crini said today (according to tweets) that the KITCHEN knife fits the 'print' of a knife found on the bedding. I'm certain that I have previously read that the 'print' was of a smaller 'generic' type of pocket knife. I'm 90% sure I had read this in Massei (where the unimportance of having traced the knife fitting this 'print' was emphasised, because it was 'generic'.)

I'm assuming there is a police photograph somewhere of this knife 'print'. It seems strange to me that it has significantly changed size...??"
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Offline dgfred


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Ergon wrote:
Why would Meredith even be mad about poo. Her toilet was down the hall. I'm sure she noticed the missing money shortly after she got home, then Knox and Co. arrived right after, to party. My guess is, Amanda told Guede that Meredith 'wanted to get together' with him.


Could have been the last straw. Who really knows?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Note to sallyoo of ORG. See my Twitter feed for photos of knives first published here on dot net https://twitter.com/manfromatlan

Same size IMO
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I thought the Kercher's lawyer and Patrick's lawyer spoke today already but they have another day planned for them?
To me it would make more sense to go ahead and wrap their thing up tomorrow. Kind of a weird schedule it seems.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Andrea Vogt's latest update:

Amanda Knox Appeal II / Meredith Kercher Murder
Update: Nov 26, 2013
By Andrea Vogt

Noteworthy is the 4 years of jail requested for Knox for aggravated calumny related to blaming Patrick Lumumba for the murder. The request is particularly severe (aggravated) because, Crini argued, the calumny was not a separate stand-alone crime, but rather strictly related to the homicide.
...
Outside the courthouse, Sollecito’s father said he was “without words” and taken aback by the aggressive prosecution. Sollecito himself did not attend today. Amanda Knox’s lawyers said they had spoken with her client in the U.S., who was sorry to hear of the day’s developments, but vowed to “radically contest” every single point, like always. The civil parties, Meredith Kercher’s family and Patrick Lumumba, are expected to fully back the prosecution’s request. Their closing arguments are expected December 16th. Trial calendar update soon.


THE FREELANCE DESK
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:27 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Bill Williams and the others are now making jokes about poo rather than sex games and Satanic rites. lol

Today was a good day I think.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

I don't believe on kicking a guy when they're down (Up, maybe :) but they do seem to be on a retrogressive infantile kick, no?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

'Cleaning row' in Briton murder

Mr Crini departed from past scenarios by suggesting the crime was not so much sexually fuelled - an erotic game that got out of control, as the lower court prosecutor described it - but an act of physical violence with a sexual expression.

He alleged that Knox and Sollecito acted in concert with another man in an explosion of violence sparked by tension between Knox and student Ms Kercher.

Mr Crini argued that Rudy Guede - a native of Ivory Coast now serving a 16-year sentence for the murder - may have inflamed tensions between Knox and Ms Kercher after he defecated in a toilet inside the women's apartment and didn't flush.
...
Knox's lawyer, Carlo Dalla Vedova, said the shift in the prosecution's theory about events leading up to the killing "confirms the lack of proof."

"In a trial based on clues, all the facts can be interpreted. This prosecutor worked very hard, but it doesn't change the situation. There are too many doubts. It calls for only an acquittal," Mr Dalla Vedova said.
...
The trial continues Dec. 16 with closing arguments by the Kercher family lawyer, Francesco Maresca, followed by Knox's defense team the next day. A verdict could come in January.


BELFAST TELEGRAPH
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Amanda Knox prosecutor calls for 30-year prison sentence
By Lizzy Davies

On Tuesday, Sollecito's father, Francesco, said he was left speechless by the request that his son serve 26 years in prison.
"Honestly, I was expecting something else, I was expecting something completely different," he was quoted as telling Italian news agency AdnKronos.
...
Francesco Maresca, lawyer for the Kercher family, was quoted as saying the prosecutor's requests were "completely balanced, in line with the closing speech which was complete and precise".


THE GUARDIAN
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Offline KingSlayer


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Bill is fun to kick all the time. lol He means well though....I think. Hopefully some of that Knox PR money goes to this guy because nobody cares more about Knox than he does. It would make me happy to see him get paid. lol
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Linea Gialla, episode 26 Nov 2013 (summary)

Linea Gialla: Meredith, the prosecution asked for the conviction of Amanda and Raffaele

21:22 On the basis of new evidence in the Meredith Kercher trial, the Attorney General has applied for a sentence of twenty-six years for both Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito plus four extra years for the American student for slander.


Attachment:
Alessandro Crini indictment.jpg


Francesco Sollecito (father of Raffaele): I did not expect this even according to the reasons given on this day. I was expecting a more concrete review than that reported in these three degrees of process. Never had suspicions about my son. Everything they're saying does nothing but confirm that Raffaele is unrelated to this crime. I have found that Raffaele is a plus, an aggregate. Now he stands at the scene of the crime by the mere fact of having a boxcutter (or, small knife) in his pocket that he had always had!


Attachment:
Francesco Sollecito brief statement Linea Gialla 26 Nov 2013.jpg


CRIMEBLOG


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Offline Nell

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thank you for all the updates Guermantes!

I take it that the appeal has not revealed anything new, except that Carla Vecchiotti and Stefano Conti are either dishonest or incompetent given that the analysed trace "I" turned out to be Amanda Knox's DNA and not rye starch.

Bruce Fischer suggests on his forum that the Conti & Vecchiotti report remains an undefeated part of the body of evidence, but I don't see how their results and professional opinion can be upheld by any court after this disaster. They have been thoroughly discredited and in Vecchiotti's case it is not the first time (Consenza, Ghira, Olgiata).

The corruption of the Hellmann court was such that I wonder if this can be achieved without money exchanging hands. There is so much evidence that has willfully been ignored during the first appeal.

Further, I am disappointed in the prosecution only asking for 26 years as I believe the punishment should fit the crime. Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have both shown contempt of court, they have slandered, lied, made money out of Meredith's death and most importantly, they have deliberately upset the victim's family by either making public requests to them directly or by informing them through press releases that they have visited Meredith's grave against the family's wishes.

All the above is aggravating and therefore the punishment should have been on the upper end of the scale in my opinion.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:22 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

A few more details from an article by Roberto Davide Papini (La Nazione)

Meredith trial, Prosecutor Crini: "Amanda and Raffaele are the killers."
Asked for a sentence: 30 years for her and 26 for him


"...today Bongiorno is absent..."

'...there's no Sollecito, but there's Patrick Lumumba..."

Lumumba is a civil plaintiff and his lawyer, Carlo Pacelli, will take the floor after the prosecutor Crini. "I'm sure that the lawyer Pacelli will prove the guilt of Amanda," said Lumumba.

Nothing new from Pacelli this time, just for the record:

Pacelli, in his speech defines Amanda as "treacherous and cunning," wearing "a mask of an actor and an impostor." Lumumba 's lawyer recounts the testimony of English friends and the testimony of Meredith's roommates, discussing that Meredith had complained about the lack of cleanliness of the bathroom after it was used by Amanda, the fact that Amanda had brought men to the house in via della Pergola several times, the cosmetic bag left in the bathroom by Amanda, open and inside with a vibrator and condoms. The testimonials (made ​​in the first instance trial) are cited by Pacelli, then he talks about Amanda and Raffaele being completely impassive a few hours after the discovery of the murder (in fact, says that while all her friends were crying, they were flirting at the police station), and while everyone was obscure about the circumstances of the death, Amanda would say they know everything and that Meredith's throat had been cut. The lawyer of Lumumba, then points out that Knox did name Patrick Lumumba as the author of the murder, "of her own free will, without any suggestion."

In general, for the lawyer Pacelli, Amanda slanders Lumumba with the obvious intent to "deflect suspicion from herself," and even lies when she accuses the police of beating her. Moreover, Pacelli continues, during the first interrogation "Amanda tells investigators facts that could not be known if not for having participated in the crime: sexual violence and the scream of Meredith before she died", that were at that time not yet known. For the lawyer Pacelli, then, Amanda Knox must be convicted for slander and worse, for seeking impunity.


Unlike yesterday, this morning Raffaele was not in court, but was nonetheless in Florence, and at the end of the indictment was joined by his father. ''I was expecting something different,'' added [Francesco] Sollecito. And when asked if he thought of an acquittal, he replied: ''I am not so pretentious.''


LA NAZIONE (FIRENZE)
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Offline tamale


Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:13 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:54 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

RIP Toto....there is no shame in being poor, or homeless.

I like what I am glimpsing today, thank you all
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:59 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Meredith trial, Interview with Carlo Pacelli and his client Lumumba (VIDEO, duration: 5:50 min)

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Offline Ergon

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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:20 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:15 am   Post subject: Re: XXVIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 30 -   

Thanks for all the updates, guermantes.
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