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XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -

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Offline hugo


Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:20 pm

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:27 pm   Post subject: Re: PEER REVIEW PSYCHOLOGY JOURNALS   

Ergon wrote:
Veering off again, I loved the way the FSA said findings of Madeleine McCann's DNA in the rental car were 'inconclusive'. How, so? That's why peer review has to be open and transparent.


You mean the FSS, the late lamented UK Forensic Science Service abolished by David Cameron's government. The responsible scientist did not make a finding of 'Madeleine McCann's DNA,' he made a finding of a number of Madeleine's DNA markers. The finding was inconclusive because the other four members of Madeleine's immediate family, all of whom were known to have used that vehicle, possessed between them the same markers, and because it was a mixed trace with at least three and possibly five contributors, and because it was likely that items bearing Madeleine's own DNA had been present in the vehicle. The Portuguese police -- headed by an officer subsequently convicted of perjury in another case -- misinterpreted the findings, and the Leicestershire police, by their own account, felt unable to correct the misinterpretation for diplomatic reasons.

Peer review is a procedure used by academic publishers. It has nothing to do with forensic investigation in criminal cases.
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Offline jamie


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:38 pm   Post subject: Re: PEER REVIEW PSYCHOLOGY JOURNALS   

hugo wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Veering off again, I loved the way the FSA said findings of Madeleine McCann's DNA in the rental car were 'inconclusive'. How, so? That's why peer review has to be open and transparent.


You mean the FSS, the late lamented UK Forensic Science Service abolished by David Cameron's government. The responsible scientist did not make a finding of 'Madeleine McCann's DNA,' he made a finding of a number of Madeleine's DNA markers. The finding was inconclusive because the other four members of Madeleine's immediate family, all of whom were known to have used that vehicle, possessed between them the same markers, and because it was a mixed trace with at least three and possibly five contributors, and because it was likely that items bearing Madeleine's own DNA had been present in the vehicle. The Portuguese police -- headed by an officer subsequently convicted of perjury in another case -- misinterpreted the findings, and the Leicestershire police, by their own account, felt unable to correct the misinterpretation for diplomatic reasons.

Peer review is a procedure used by academic publishers. It has nothing to do with forensic investigation in criminal cases.


Madeleine McCann was an IVF baby. How is it possible to 'share DNA' with any of the other McCanns?
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Has anybody heard any news about today's court hearing of the Sollecito/Gumbel defamation trial?

Ergon wrote:
[...]The first of the defamation trials against Mignini, that is Sollecito/Gumbel, now moved to March 03, 2017 in Florence under Judge de Cecco.

[...]The evidence has been admitted and so on March 3, 2017 there is the exam of the first two witnesses. Giuliano Mignini will be the first witness.


viewtopic.php?style=6&p=130723#p130723
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:23 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Nothing collected into GoogleNews yet.

Just:

Raffaele has something to say about the compensation decision.
AgenziaRadicale, 01 March 2017: Gianni Carbotti and Camillo Maffia, “Raffaele speaks: Justice is not a reality show”

And:
His aunt Sara Achille also has something to say (amongst other things, that he’s living in a drama (that in the context of his Facebook comments)). Raffaele is too naive.
Panorama, Carmelo Abbate, “Pay him”
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:07 am   Post subject: SOLLECITO GUMBEL VILIPENDIO.   

guermantes wrote:
Has anybody heard any news about today's court hearing of the Sollecito/Gumbel defamation trial?

Ergon wrote:
[...]The first of the defamation trials against Mignini, that is Sollecito/Gumbel, now moved to March 03, 2017 in Florence under Judge de Cecco.

[...]The evidence has been admitted and so on March 3, 2017 there is the exam of the first two witnesses. Giuliano Mignini will be the first witness.


http://perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic. ... 23#p130723

Hi, guermantes, I can only confirm the hearing was held today. (March 03). Beyond that, I'll have to wait till I get a full understanding of the proceedings.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:11 am   Post subject: Re: PEER REVIEW PSYCHOLOGY JOURNALS   

jamie wrote:
hugo wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Veering off again, I loved the way the FSA said findings of Madeleine McCann's DNA in the rental car were 'inconclusive'. How, so? That's why peer review has to be open and transparent.


You mean the FSS, the late lamented UK Forensic Science Service abolished by David Cameron's government. The responsible scientist did not make a finding of 'Madeleine McCann's DNA,' he made a finding of a number of Madeleine's DNA markers. The finding was inconclusive because the other four members of Madeleine's immediate family, all of whom were known to have used that vehicle, possessed between them the same markers, and because it was a mixed trace with at least three and possibly five contributors, and because it was likely that items bearing Madeleine's own DNA had been present in the vehicle. The Portuguese police -- headed by an officer subsequently convicted of perjury in another case -- misinterpreted the findings, and the Leicestershire police, by their own account, felt unable to correct the misinterpretation for diplomatic reasons.

Peer review is a procedure used by academic publishers. It has nothing to do with forensic investigation in criminal cases.


Madeleine McCann was an IVF baby. How is it possible to 'share DNA' with any of the other McCanns?

Hi, jamie,
All three of the McCann children were born through IVF, after Kate McCann had a five year struggle to get pregnant. However, the father confirmed that rumours of a 'sperm donor' were untrue, and that he was the natural father of the children. Therefore, they would have shared DNA, and this was confirmed through genetic testing. However, the sample in the car was a 15 out of 19 match with Madeleine's DNA.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:14 am   Post subject: Re: PEER REVIEW PSYCHOLOGY JOURNALS   

hugo wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Veering off again, I loved the way the FSA said findings of Madeleine McCann's DNA in the rental car were 'inconclusive'. How, so? That's why peer review has to be open and transparent.


You mean the FSS, the late lamented UK Forensic Science Service abolished by David Cameron's government. The responsible scientist did not make a finding of 'Madeleine McCann's DNA,' he made a finding of a number of Madeleine's DNA markers. The finding was inconclusive because the other four members of Madeleine's immediate family, all of whom were known to have used that vehicle, possessed between them the same markers, and because it was a mixed trace with at least three and possibly five contributors, and because it was likely that items bearing Madeleine's own DNA had been present in the vehicle. The Portuguese police -- headed by an officer subsequently convicted of perjury in another case -- misinterpreted the findings, and the Leicestershire police, by their own account, felt unable to correct the misinterpretation for diplomatic reasons.

Peer review is a procedure used by academic publishers. It has nothing to do with forensic investigation in criminal cases.

Hi, hugo, corrected to FSS. Thanks.

- The 'responsible scientist' who confirmed Madeleine's DNA (erratum, see below) was Dr. Rosa Maria Espinheira, director of Portugal's DNA testing laboratory. From Madeleine's DNA
Quote:
- Regarding your request no. 5, determine if the 'profile' obtained by the British laboratory may pertain to a child of the McCann couple.

- We carried out a profile comparison obtained from the autosomal STRs of Kate McCann and Gerald McCann and of the profile sent us.

- The probability of the McCann couple being the biological parents of the female individual in that test is 99,9828 %.

Lisbon, 20th August, 2007

The Director of the Genetic & Biological Forensic Service

Dr. Rosa Maria Espinheira

- Then, Dr. John Lowe of the FSS, wrote:
Quote:
A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

Why - ...

Well lets look at the question that is being asked

"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "

It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. it's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match.

The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation


- Oddly, similar arguments were made against Raffaele Sollecito's 15 alleles out of 19 on the bra clasp.

- Some say the FSS was deliberately vague for political reasons.

- The 'Portuguese officer convicted of perjury in another case' is Goncalo Amaral who recently won his case against the McCanns in Portugal's Supreme Court for his book "Maddie-The Truth of the Lie". The case was about Leonor Cipriano, who was convicted with her brother for murdering her daughter Joanna, since she'd witnessed them having an incestuous affair. She accused the police of beating her and that she'd been interrogated for 48 hours, ahem; they said she'd tried to kill herself by throwing herself down some stairs, hence the bruises. The police were acquitted, and Amaral, who wasn't even present, received a suspended sentence of 18 months (like Mignini :) for falsifying the reports of the incident.

- Here's more about Leonor Cipriano (Warning: upsetting details).

- Your point about peer review is correct. I conflated the discussion about peer review in the APA journal with the forensic investigation of the McCann case. However, since many other DNA specialists like John Butler have used formulas to determine the probability ratio of DNA coming from a victim even from a mixed DNA sample, Dr. Lowe should retreat into obfuscation without giving his reasoning? It literally read like what Peter Gill would write, ahem.

ETA erratum: Dr. Rosa Maria Espinheira confirmed the DNA came from a female child of the McCanns. However, since DNA is not transmitted from parents in equal blocks, siblings DO have dissimilar DNA profiles (unless they are identical twins). Since all three children's samples were on file, it would have been easy for Dr. Lowe to find a perfect match with the female sibling. He did not, and that's why the police reported it at the time as a match for Madeleine McCann. Nevertheless, in line with my original point, scientists should explain their reasoning and provide the data, not make generalized statements.
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Here is a brief report on the 'Honor Bound' hearing in Florence, from Corriere dell'Umbria (who don't do much accessible content online).

Case deferred until April (I think this means April 2017). Judge hopes the parties will come to an 'out of court' settlement by then. The wording of the complaint has been changed to include the passages from the book as published in English, rather than just the passages translated into Italian so far. The Judge is thinking about (ed.note it's not clear how far he's gone with this thinking) getting an expert to translate the whole book into Italian. Mignini and Brizioli shouted at each other.

Attachment:
20170304_134755b.jpg


(Edited many times to get the attachment to fit - sorry it's now a bit small...)


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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:05 pm   Post subject: Re: PEER REVIEW PSYCHOLOGY JOURNALS   

jamie wrote:
Madeleine McCann was an IVF baby. How is it possible to 'share DNA' with any of the other McCanns?


Firstly, you are making an unsourced claim. Secondly, you don't know anything about IVF and you clearly don't know anyone who has gone through the procedure. IVF does not commonly involve anonymous donors.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:11 am   Post subject: FIREWORKS IN FLORENCE   

From Andrea Vogt Tweets:
Quote:
Lively court hearing in Florence Fri as lawyers for Sollecito & "Honor Bound" co-author Gumbel try to deflect defamation trial (April).

Sounds interesting.


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:29 pm   Post subject: Re: PEER REVIEW PSYCHOLOGY JOURNALS   

hugo wrote:
jamie wrote:
Madeleine McCann was an IVF baby. How is it possible to 'share DNA' with any of the other McCanns?


Firstly, you are making an unsourced claim. Secondly, you don't know anything about IVF and you clearly don't know anyone who has gone through the procedure. IVF does not commonly involve anonymous donors.

Note
Just a Note.
~ Er, civility?. It's public knowledge Kate McCann had IVF treatments to conceive her children and this was reported widely, so no source required here. I was uncertain whether jamie was thinking of this article in Nature
Quote:
World’s first baby born with new “3 parent” technique
A five-month-old boy is the first baby to be born using a new technique that incorporates DNA from three people, New Scientist can reveal.

but corrected his misunderstanding already.
~
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Offline jamie


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:16 am   Post subject: Re: PEER REVIEW PSYCHOLOGY JOURNALS   

Ergon wrote:
hugo wrote:
jamie wrote:
Madeleine McCann was an IVF baby. How is it possible to 'share DNA' with any of the other McCanns?


Firstly, you are making an unsourced claim. Secondly, you don't know anything about IVF and you clearly don't know anyone who has gone through the procedure. IVF does not commonly involve anonymous donors.

Note
Just a Note.
~ Er, civility?. It's public knowledge Kate McCann had IVF treatments to conceive her children and this was reported widely, so no source required here. I was uncertain whether jamie was thinking of this article in Nature
Quote:
World’s first baby born with new “3 parent” technique
A five-month-old boy is the first baby to be born using a new technique that incorporates DNA from three people, New Scientist can reveal.

but corrected his misunderstanding already.
~


I had in mind someone I knew who had his two children by IVF, and it was by donor, as he was infertile. So, it is not self-evident that Maddie had the same DNA as both her parents.
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Offline elisa


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:44 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The most couples try first an IVF with own eggs&sperma. Have no statistics, but IVF with foreign donors is mostly the last solution. As I read the McCains did have IVF with own fertiliz. sources, so they declared a. ouple of times. Though I believe in Amaral's conclusions, because he describes other facts towards guilt of. overing up an accident. McCains acting seems to me so suspicious, I even believe there was a sex. assault by friends of the McCains and therefore they had to let the body of M disappear. It is a sad and tragic story but the most unbelievable is the abduction. Just from reading the facts and McCains explanations and acting.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:01 am   Post subject: ORIGINAL PHOTO OF KNOX THROAT SCRATCH   

Original picture of Knox's scratch posted in the Photo Album (large picture).

There are some pictures floating around Twitter purporting to show a hand print and others still claiming a hickey, lol, but they've been enhanced so I located the original.

This relates to Laura Mezetti's deposition http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/d ... i-1200.pdf but the photo is not attached to the deposition. Found on a Lalli disc not yet in the Wiki. One the many ‘to-do-on the Wiki’ list of things, when we can get around to it.

Date taken: 2007-11-06 1:30 PM according to the EXIF information.


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Offline jamie


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Here's the pic on the police files.


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jamie wrote:
Here's the pic on the police files.


Thanks, jamie. Your picture is from a PDF Photo book by the Scientific Police therefore is low res and doesn't have the same color range. The original picture (the only one of her scratch) I posted was taken by a Nikon D50, hence the very accurate detail.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:59 am   Post subject: ECHR KNOX V. ITALIE   

Always interesting to observe the psychology of some Amanda Knox followers. Anonymous commenter "Numbers" who has made hundreds of posts on Injustice In Perugia and ISF re Knox's likely triumph at ECtHR and the appeal had been accepted has this to say:
Quote:
Some guilters post misleading information that the case has not been reviewed at all; obviously, a Communicated Case has survived an initial ECHR review.

Er, what I said was communicated directly from the court.
Quote:
No ruling as to admissibility has been made by the court.

So, instead of their haphazard reading of what "admissibility" means, perhaps, they could also ask the court?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:44 am   Post subject: THE PSYCHOLOGY OF A TROLL   

A recent Washington Post article How researchers tried to understand one of Twitter’s oldest trolling groups caught my eye hbc)
Abby Olheiser
March 2
Quote:
Three-year-old Madeline McCann disappeared from a resort apartment in Portugal in 2007 while on a family vacation. Her British parents were dining nearby. The McCann disappearance, which has never been resolved, became a major British tabloid story. The daily media frenzy has since faded, but a decade later, a tight-knit group of Twitter trolls who are convinced that they have proven the McCann parents’ guilt in their daughter’s disappearance still discuss the case online every single day.

What you’ll see: a steady stream of chatter from a tight-knit community with a common goal. In a new paper on the #McCann group, Online trolling: The case of Madeleine McCann (Dr.) Synnott and his co-authors tried to shed some light on how this devoted, online trolling community works.

The study was published by Elsevier-Science Direct
Computers in Human Behavior
Volume 71, June 2017, Pages 70–78
Online trolling: The case of Madeleine McCann
John Synnott, Andria Coulias , Maria Ioannou

Highlights:

• Case study analysis of Anti-McCann internet Trolling Group.
• The role of language, group identity and in group cohesion is examined.
• Language is central to Anti-McCann group in the construction of identity.
• Several strategies were employed by Anti-McCanns to provoke outsiders.
• Support for previous research linking trolling to western media culture and ASPD.

Abstract:

Despite the sustained media attention surrounding internet trolling, academic studies investigating its occurrence are rare. This study aimed to provide a case study analysis of the behaviours and strategies of a group of alleged Twitter trolls referred to as the anti-McCanns due to their continual abuse of Kate and Gerry McCann as well as those who support them and thus identify as pro-McCann. The way in which language was used to construct the anti-McCanns group identity, enhance in-group cohesion and facilitate out-group disassociation from the pro-Mccann group was additionally explored, given that previous research has implicated group processes in the propagation of aggressive online conduct. A multi-method approach involving a combination of ethnographic observations and the collection of online commentary was employed. The data was then analysed using quantitative content analysis and discourse analysis, which indicated that language was utilised in a variety of ways by the anti-McCanns to construct a salient group identity and negatively stereotype and disassociate from the pro-McCann group. Findings additionally revealed that several strategies were employed by the anti-McCann trolls to provoke and derogate members of the pro-McCann group, supporting previous findings which have linked trolling to both western media culture and the characteristics of anti-social personality disorder. The implications of these findings both theoretical and practical are discussed, alongside recommendations for future research.

Keywords:
Online trolling; Online abuse; Missing persons; Social media; Cyber psychology

My response to the WaPo article was published:
Quote:
This study is a violation of the British (BPS) and American (APA) psychologist association's code of ethics.
Psychology Research Ethics
Saul McLeod published 2007, updated 2015
- The purpose of these codes of conduct is to protect research participants, the reputation of psychology and psychologists themselves."
- Moral issues rarely yield a simple, unambiguous, right or wrong answer. It is therefore often a matter of judgement whether the research is justified or not. For example, it might be that a study causes psychological or physical discomfort to participants, maybe they suffer pain or perhaps even come to serious harm.
- Informed Consent
Whenever possible investigators should obtain the consent of participants.
- Debrief
After the research is over the participant should be able to discuss the procedure and the findings with the psychologist.
- Protection of Participants
Researchers must ensure that those taking part in research will not be caused distress. They must be protected from physical and mental harm. This means you must not embarrass, frighten, offend or harm participants.
- Deception
This is where participants are misled or wrongly informed about the aims of the research. Types of deception include (i) deliberate misleading, e.g. using confederates, staged manipulations in field settings, deceptive instructions; (ii) deception by omission, e.g., failure to disclose full information about the study, or creating ambiguity.

Note:
The post grad researcher set up a Twitter account, did not reveal their identity or purpose of the study, reveal their findings to those who responded, (and) deleted their account afterwards.

The title "Online trolling: The case of Madeleine McCann" is unprofessional and inflammatory.

"Case study analysis of Anti-McCann internet Trolling Group" characterizes a whole group of people as socially maladjusted and opens them to ridicule.

Disclosure: I'm an editor at www.themurderofmeredithkercher.com

--------

Interesting how the group searching for justice for Madeleine McCann had a similar arc as ours: dedicated volunteers translating legal documents for the English-speaking world, attacks from the media, a professional PR campaign arrayed against, biased (background research shows Synnott's group like Gill, et al, had pre determined their conclusions and did the 'research' to confirm) experts, and of course, we are the 'Amanda Knox Haters Society' and the 'Anti-McCann internet Trolling Group'.

The media of course, loves this. They can label whole groups of people now because the psychologists said so. Pity that Brenda Leyland committed suicide because the media wrongly labeled her a troll based on similar internet sleuthing.

Dr. Synnott plans on studying the 'pro-McCann group' now, and if the difference in language doesn't telegraph his bias, well, ...

Follows, a bandwagon: Miscarriages of Justice in the Age of Social Media: The Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito Innocence Campaign
The British Journal of Criminology
Lieve Gies
Published: 29 February 2016
Abstract:

The role of the media in exposing miscarriages of justice has not been extensively researched and even less is known about the contribution of the Internet and social media. Drawing on in-depth interviews with innocence campaigners, this article examines the social media campaign to overturn the conviction of Amanda Knox and her co-accused Raffaele Sollecito for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Perugia in 2007. It explores the campaigners’ use of different media platforms. It also examines their motivations in joining and supporting the campaign and discusses the campaign’s contributions and social dynamics. Finally, it elucidates the factors that shaped supporters’ belief in the innocence of Knox and Sollecito.

Keywords: wrongful conviction, Internet, media, pressure groups, qualitative research method

-----

Ahem :)
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi Ergon,

your mentioning of Lieve Gies reminded me of this book we (or just I?) talked about last year:

Transmedia Crime Stories. The Trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in the Globalised Media Sphere

It was published 3 months ago, and the intro (Foreword: The tragicomedy of Perugia: Power and prejudice, visibility and invisibility in the making of
a transnational, postmodern media story
) by Yvonne Jewkes - once again putting Knox next to the child killer Myra Hindley - can be downloaded free of charge here (24 pages), attached also below:

Transmedia Crime Stories -Introduction.pdf


Yvonne Jewkes wrote:
My aim in this Foreword is both to pick up on some of the key themes

introduced by other contributors to the volume and to add my own

thoughts and reflections on the reasons for the case’s enduring fascination.

In relation to the first objective, I found the content of the chapters that

follow as grimly riveting as the events they describe. Examining all aspects

of the story and its key protagonists, Transmedia Crime Stories: the Trial

of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in the Globalised Media Sphere provides

absorbing new insight into the case and its aftermath. Chapters discuss

the arrests, trials, and acquittals; the tactics used by British, American,

and Italian journalists to construct Knox, Sollecito, and Guede in ways

that suited their (and the prosecution’s) narratives about the crime and

about the nations represented by the lead actors; the pivotal role of social

media in many aspects of the case and its reporting; the online communities

that continue to noisily protest Knox’s and Sollecito’s innocence or

guilt; the flawed police investigations; the controversial court trial; and the

slippery, selective, and ultimately double-edged conferment of celebrity

status that has elevated Amanda Knox to a level of fame and notoriety that

has seen her compared to, among others, Diana, Princess of Wales, Lady

Macbeth, and child murderer Myra Hindley
.


---------------------
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1057% ... 37-59004-6

----------------
I've finally been reading Stevie Simkin's Femme Fatale book about Knox and the other female murderers whose media etc. coverage he compares (mainly Ruth Snyder and Frances Howard; Madeleine Smith and the Basic Instinct character are also discussed). Fascinating book, one also recognizes one's own behaviour in sometimes viewing Knox the female as the worst and most devious one of the three accused, next I want to properly delve into all these plays and novels (The Woman in White!, need to reread it, I loved it when teenager) he mentions as quite a few of them were unknown to me - I've heard of them but have never seen them or read the scripts (Machinal, Duchess of Malfi etc).


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:35 am   Post subject: DECONSTRUCTING MEDIA NARRATIVES ON CRIME   

Hi, Rumpole, thanks again for your post. Another from your link:
Quote:
Introduction: Transmedia Crime Stories
Lieve Gies, Maria Bortoluzzi
Abstract
That crime forms the staple diet of media reporting has long been acknowledged. Yet, not every crime sells and even within the same category of offending there are huge variations as to what makes a particular case newsworthy. Some murder stories barely cause a ripple, while others simply will run and run, generating headlines for years to come as the investigation turns into arrest, trial, appeal and, in some instances, retrial and exoneration. What is more, rather than just generating interest in the local or national press, some stories will command worldwide media interest. A few do not even require the spectacle of a trial to keep the media interest alive: the case of Madeleine McCann, the British child who disappeared on holiday in Portugal in 2007, has been making the news globally on and off for nearly a decade, despite the fact that her fate is still unknown and not a single suspect has been put on trial. The Internet and social media are capable of amplifying the geographical reach of such stories, increasing pressure on the police and other authorities to investigate or solve a case, or sometimes reopen it. In December 2015, it was a much-talked-about documentary by Netflix, the US-based on-demand channel streaming over the Internet, that provoked international outcry over the murder conviction of Steven Avery in Wisconsin. Online petitions generating more than 380,000 signatures against his conviction were indicative of a global response to what would have remained a local case with limited topicality without the online exposure.

My own curiosity's piqued by what I call "false media narrative syndrome". Used to see the same tactics when whole groups of brown skinned people were demonized to fit pro-war propaganda, now I see it used to fit people's psychological biases. The "burn the witch" syndrome we are all supposedly affected by, the "investigation and prosecutorial misconduct" which is easy to argue since, Netflix's Steven Avery, West Memphis Three with the celebrity advocacy effect, Adnan Syed since a popular podcast, then of course the weirder documentaries like "Capturing the Friedmans" and "Roman Polanski-Wanted and Desired" which says more about the film makers than their subjects. Sometimes, a murderer is just a murderer, and a pedophile, just a pedophile.

Regardless of what the academics have to say.
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:05 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

A tip came in from an Italian reader, they sent just the link.

http://m.dagospia.com/ma-che-simpatico- ... one-139676

Have we looked at this at all? Can someone explain what it is all about?
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:42 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yeah, been talked about. (Search on Lucarelli; Guermantes usually is the most lucid poster on Sollecito news, and I think he/she covered it.) Late Jan/Early Feb 2017.

Briefly, Sollecito was being less than discreet (aka effing stupid) in a Facebook group perceived as a tad disrepectful towards the fairer sex, and Lucarelli outed his posts. It just about hit the English language 'press', as I recall. Some of his comments could be read as references to his having murdered Meredith (or someone else) and having some expertise in covering up murders. Maybe even eating the meat of Guede! Of course, Raf dismissed all of this as a bit of fun (grabbing pussy?) which all boys together get up to, donchaknow? (I'm now realising that I'm surprised Sollecito hasn't yet had an audience with The Donald!)
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Re Gies & co:

I think a general pattern is beginning to appear of, academics that are not legally-trained and do not understand the ethics of court reporting (Lieve Gies and Maria Bortoluzzi are recent examples) showing a “confusion of thought”(1), and a belief and trust that what they read about a legal case is true and correct, and a balanced representation of reality rather than an (adversarial-like, even propagandising) distortion of it.

The authors of that Victimology book(2) likewise take trust in the veracity and unbiased view of the newspaper reports as their starting position.

These writers can hardly do otherwise, not knowing other languages, other legal systems, the actual procedural history of the case, the evidence that was presented or even how to evaluate it in an informed manner – there are several degrees’ worth of knowledge acquisition just there alone, and who would have the time or inclination (not to mention the resources) to do all that work? Especially as there are easy papers to publish.

But not having the skill and knowledge leads them into making elemntary howlers.(3)

So the worth of their contribution to the store of accumulated knowledge is up for questioning. There are nuanced hints, though, that signs of a cognitive dissonance are beginning to surface and be recognised (to some extent, anyway). A full acknowledgement of the cognitive dissonance necessarily entails an annullment and potential negation of the ultimate validity of any thesis based on that dissonance. Any hoped-for validity would have to be salvaged by following a different line of reasoning.

More efficient, collectively, is to leave the shipwreck where it is, and to start fresh work.

The end result will be a secondary wave of academic papers titled, “Misconstructing the news”, “Fakers are not Fakirs”, “Being Lead Astray”, “Outside My Field: I’m not an Expert on THAT, so who do I trust?”, “I read it first on Bruce’s site, and I can’t get it out of my head”, and so on.




(1)
Quote:
"As my noble and learned friend, Lord Pearce, observed in the course of the argument, the ground for quashing inconsistent verdicts in the same trial is not that there is no room for different conclusions on the same facts, but because, if the same body of men reach inconsistent conclusions on the same evidence, there is good ground for thinking that they were subject to confusion of thought affecting their judgment as a whole."

Connelly v DPP, United Kingdom House of Lords (21 Apr 1964), [1964] AC 1254 at p 1354; [1964] 2 WLR 1145; [1964] 2 All ER 401; 48 Cr App R 183 (Lord Devlin).


(2) Ann Wolbert Burgess, Cheryl Regehr and Albert R Roberts, Victimology: Theories and Applications, 2nd edition, (2013) [Jones & Bartlett Learning, 2013]

(3) Howlers are macaroni in Italian, meaning what a typical stereotype yokel or someone else unacquainted the material, such as student, would produce: “e non è mai consigliabile inserire i rientri (qualcuno li chiama indentatura, traducendo maccheronicamente l’inglese indentation) sotto forma di tabulazioni” ("and it is never advisable to insert indentations (which some people call 'gear enmeshments', doing a howler translation of the English "indentation") under the form of tabulations") — Virginio B Sala, Tesi di laurea con comuter e Internet, [APOGEO, 2009] (Doing a thesis with computer and Internet), p 70. ISBN 9788850328529
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:19 am   Post subject: KNOX ON FORCED CONFESSIONS   

Hi, Catnip, but someone has to self-interestedly declare at the APLS conference: APLS 2017
Quote:
Knox: We need to make psych-law research available, known to the entire world. #APLS2017 #interrogations #confessions #wrongfulconvictions

and, on the podium with her: False Kassin
Quote:
Kassin: I've never seen a case more steeped in misinformation than Amanda Knox's #apls2017

then he repeats the 50 hrs. interrogation once again, LOL.
Quote:
Kassin: Knox was questioned for over 50 hours but none was recorded. #APLS2017
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:18 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Poor chap doesn't know how to cite.

Not a scholar.

= = =
I added up the times mentioned in Amanda's defence team's submission (can't remember now if it was the trial, or the first appeal), and it was one hour out, compared to what was claimed as the total time. (Perhaps I made a mistake? Someone can go and double-check.) And also, they said that she "was available for questioning" during that time, not that she was. A minor point, but doesn't stop a good story. (Talking of stereotypes, if Italians are supposed to be emotional and exaggerative at the drop of a hat, then why are the lawyers' claims so mechanically sober and the reporting of those claims so wildly over the top? ;) )

How would anyone double-check what Kassin claims (presumably he has sources)?

If Kassin typed for 50 hours, and no citation/reference was recorded, does that remove points from his accreditation total ("demerit points", we call them here: get too many of those, and you're out)?
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi Rumpole,

Here’s another useful book:

— Jean-Pierre Brodier, L'odalisque, ou la représentation de la femme imaginaire, (2005) [L'Harmattan, 2009] (The Odalisque, or, Representing the Imaginary Woman). ISBN 9782747597074



-----

On a different note,

Quote:
“… thinking like a lawyer is clever and complex. It involves a capacity to span a wide range of cognitive repertoires – from technical rational reason, to critical thinking, to creative thinking.”

— Rachael Field, James Duffy and Anna Huggins, Lawyering and Positive Professional Identities, (2014) [LexisNexis Butterworths, 2014], [7.70] (p 223). ISBN 9780409334463


what would Gies and co’s list of books to read on the bus look like, on the way to their legal tutorial?

Here are some potential titles:

— Ennio Amodio, Processo penale diritto europeo e common law: Dal rito inquisitorio al giusto processo, (2003) [Giuffrè, ] (Criminal Procedure - European Law and Common Law: From Inquisitions to Fair Trials). ISBN 9788814097973

— Gugliemo Gulotta and Luisa Puddu, La persuasione forense: Strategie e tattiche, (2004) [Giuffrè, ] (Persuading in Court: Strategies and Tactics). ISBN 9788814104824

— Jordi Ferrer Beltrán, La valutazione razionale della prova, (2012) [Giuffrè, 2012] (The Rational Evaluation of Evidence). ISBN 9788814163326

— Alessandro Cappa, Agostino De Caro, Francesco Rizzo and Andrea Ruggiero, La formazione della prova nel giudizio: Dall'udienza preliminare al dibattimento, (2009) [UTET, 2009] (The Formation of Proof in Legal Judgements: From Preliminary Hearing to Trial). ISBN 9788859804109

— Monica Cucci, Giuseppe Gennari, Andrea Gentilomo and others, L'uso della prova scientifica nell processo penale, (2012) [Maggioli, 2012] (The Use of Scientific Evidence in Criminal Trials). ISBN 9788838773129


And something that might sound strange at first, but isn’t really:

— Giovanni Pascuzzi, La creatività del giurista: Tecniche e strategie dell’innovazione giurdidica, (2013) [Zanichelli, 2013] (Legal Creativity: Techniques and Strategies of Judicial Innovation). ISBN 9788808164162


And for the true sociologists:

— Franco Stefanoni, Il codice del potere: Avvocati d'Italia, (2007) [Melampo, 2007] (The Power Code: Italian Lawyers). ISBN 9788889533185

Quote:
“In Rome, in fact, criminal law intertwines with the political world, both because part of the lawyers are politically active, and because almost all of them are involved in defending members of the government and of Parliament, not to mention various heads of the Public Service.”

— Stefanoni, The Power Code, p 210.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:05 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

According to Sollecito, his lawyers have lodged an appeal with the Supreme Court, against the ruling of the Court of Appeal of Florence. On March 7, he gave another interview to Radio Cusano Campus, in which he mentioned it:

Raffaele Sollecito: “I’m innocent but treated as guilty”
By Roberto Arduini

Raffaele Sollecito doesn’t give up. That they had refused to award him a compensation for wrongful imprisonment did not get him down. And speaking on Radio Cusano Campus during ECG, the format led by Roberto Arduini and Andrea Di Ciancio, he announces: "We have already appealed, even if waiting for an answer will take a few months."

Raffaele Sollecito is still suffering from the fact that the Court of Appeal of Florence has rejected his claim for unjust detention: "I'm not okay. Considering everything I went through during all these years, for me it's really a shame what happened. We appealed against a judgment that is written in clearly/totally accusatory key, a ruling that is in fact a new sentence, which does not take into account what emerged earlier in all the trials that had to do with my case.

I spent 4 years in prison, 3 and a half years in a supermax (maximum security prison, ed) and lived through another six years of injustice, and, basically, I was in limbo, in a kind of prison under house arrest, because both the magistrates and the people have continued to look at me and comment on everything I do or say, so much so that I must give account of my real life to others, to those, who have prejudices, and to everyone who sees in me an image that does not really exist."


http://www.tag24.it/174380-raffaele-sol ... colpevole/

The rest of the interview consists of his usual complaints that he has repeated so many times before. It can be safely ignored.

Audio of the interview “Voglio Giustizia" (“I want Justice”) is here:

http://www.tag24.it/podcast/raffaele-so ... giustizia/
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

In other news:

March 10, 2017

Meredith, lawyer: she can now be remembered outside the courtroom
Civil party’s lawyer presents book in Perugia, PM in the audience

‘Meredith Kercher's family can finally remember the poor Mez outside the courtroom': this is now the state of mind / mood of the family of the British student murdered in Perugia, according to their Florentine lawyer, Francesco Maresca. The lawyer presented his book “The Meredith trial, perfect justice?”, at a meeting in Perugia.

Also present [in the audience] Giuliano Mignini, the magistrate who has followed the investigation right from the start. […] Responding to ANSA, on the sidelines of the meeting, Maresca said, for the Kercher family, there remained “the memory of a difficult and long experience with the Italian justice system, after which they were left with so many question marks, and the feeling of an imperfect justice.”


ANSA

March 17, 2017

Sollecito’s lawyer: Guede should be banished (expelled, deported) [from Italy]
"As soon as he is finished serving sentence," says lawyer Maori

'Once he served his sentence, Rudy Guede should be expelled from Italy': this request came from the lawyer Luca Maori, one of the defenders of Raffaele Sollecito. The Ivorian has been spending these days in Perugia, home of his former fifth grade teacher, where he's taking advantage of a [special] permit award. […] '[We would like to] ask the police station in Perugia - Maori continued - to take action and initiate the expulsion procedure of Guede, who is not an Italian national, as soon as he finishes serving his sentence (in the Viterbo prison - ed.) Many foreigners are expelled from our country for far less serious offenses than murder for which the Ivorian has been convicted.”


ANSA
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:57 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
In other news:

March 10, 2017

Meredith, lawyer: she can now be remembered outside the courtroom
Civil party’s lawyer presents book in Perugia, PM in the audience

‘Meredith Kercher's family can finally remember the poor Mez outside the courtroom': this is now the state of mind / mood of the family of the British student murdered in Perugia, according to their Florentine lawyer, Francesco Maresca. The lawyer presented his book “The Meredith trial, perfect justice?”, at a meeting in Perugia.

Also present [in the audience] Giuliano Mignini, the magistrate who has followed the investigation right from the start. […] Responding to ANSA, on the sidelines of the meeting, Maresca said, for the Kercher family, there remained “the memory of a difficult and long experience with the Italian justice system, after which they were left with so many question marks, and the feeling of an imperfect justice.”


ANSA

March 17, 2017

Sollecito’s lawyer: Guede should be banished (expelled, deported) [from Italy]
"As soon as he is finished serving sentence," says lawyer Maori

'Once he served his sentence, Rudy Guede should be expelled from Italy': this request came from the lawyer Luca Maori, one of the defenders of Raffaele Sollecito. The Ivorian has been spending these days in Perugia, home of his former fifth grade teacher, where he's taking advantage of a [special] permit award. […] '[We would like to] ask the police station in Perugia - Maori continued - to take action and initiate the expulsion procedure of Guede, who is not an Italian national, as soon as he finishes serving his sentence (in the Viterbo prison - ed.) Many foreigners are expelled from our country for far less serious offenses than murder for which the Ivorian has been convicted.”


ANSA


Maori sounds like a racist. Guede's lived in Italy since he was 5 so he's more Italian than Ivorian by now.

But as I thought a week ago reading Yvonne Jewkes's Foreword, she and the other writers of the Transmedia book make some erroneous claims, such as these:

  • "It is only Rudy Guede, the sole individual serving time for Meredith’s murder, who is reduced to a simple characterisation; a single word, in fact. Despite having
    lived in Italy for 16 years at the time of the murder, and having become a naturalised Italian citizen, by far the most common descriptor of Guede in the Italian press is ‘ivoriano’ (see Heim, Chap. 8)."


  • "the colourful and notorious chief prosecutor Giuliano Mignini was accused of abusing his authority in trying to pin the murder on Knox and Sollecito, but was subsequently
    cleared of all charges and has resumed his legal career; he has threatened to sue Knox for defamation and has brought similar charges
    against a Seattle newspaper and an online blogger."

Maori certainly proves Jewkes' point with regard to the word "Ivorian", although the fact that he isn't a naturalized Italian citizen might be one reason for that. Were he from France or some other neighbouring European country, he most probably wouldn't be receiving the same kind of treatment.

As for Mignini, I recall him being investigated in connection with the Narducci case, but was there also some other investigation of him with regard to this Meredith Kercher case?
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:32 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

"colourful and notorious" is newspaper defamation-avoiding code for "corrupt, associating with criminals".

We used to have a lot of starting price bookies here described as "a colourful racing identity", back in the 70s and 80s.

"colourful and notorious" Jewkes is accused of mangling facts, mis-stating the law with intent to deceive, and plagiarism for the intent of propagandising.

Doesn't sound so "colourful", when the boot is on the other foot, does it?

Even if true.

The alternative charge is even worse: Jewkes is engaging in "mere puffery", which is expected behaviour in the advertising sector. Puffery is of no import to anyone. Especially when it comes to facts and lazy writers.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Say there is a translation factor, and someone may have said something like "(defacto) citizen" or "can be one, if he wants".

It still comes down to five-second journalism (with no sources? so opinion??), and potential use of a thesaurus.

The reliability, accuracy and trustworthiness of something comes down to how much time was spent preparing and researching it.

You wouldn't expect court reporters to be so slapdash, unbalanced and copy-pastey.
What happened to Bongiorno conducting the case in the media, or her giving Amanda the boot (which seems to have gone above the heads of the sidelined cheersquad) or Maori being sly with his seed-planting? There's a real story behind the scenes. On the US side, too. Why is "the DNA guy" so shy all of a sudden? etc.

What does the background story do to the facade story?
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Regarding the spiteful Maori, and his ambition to expel Guede the Ivorian (when he has finished his sentence). Has anybody seen a comment from a Sollecito on this development, or is it Maori attention seeking on his own behalf?

I ask only because some of the observations made by the younger Sollecito, about the role of imprisonment in society, have been reformist, in line with his stated allegiance with the Italian Radical Party. A call for expulsion of Guede wouldn't, in my opinion, sit very happily with Raf's professed beliefs. (Although, la partita radicale is split down the middle, and some peculiar alliances are being constructed - so it's probably par for the Italian political and opportunistic class to see no contradictions.)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:30 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sallyoo, I think it's because they're still scared if what Guede might say next in his appeal. Interesting to note Guede for all his faults, still seems to have supporters in Italy. Sollecito doesn't.
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:31 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

re Guede's nationality: the more I try to check this, the more confused I become. I definitely remember having read ages ago, that's years ago, in the British papers and tabloids that Guede is a naturalized citizen of Italy. Tried to check the fact because I'd thought up to that time that he in fact wasn't. Couldn't find any verification. Then when I was reading Jewkes' foreword I was glad to finally find a veritable source for "this fact" that I now thought was confirmed. Then a few days later Guermantes comes with this above Maori quote, which destroys that belief. Him being a lawyer and having actually participated in the trial, I presume now that he's the one that has the best truth. But, - sighing heavily - I don't know what the truth is. Can Maori be trusted to be the truth guy in this matter?

I've googled again today, and at least both BBC (in 2009) and Daily Mail (2016) have claimed that Guede has joint Italian and Ivorian citizenships in which case, one presumes, he could not be deported. Unless Italy has a law that allows the state to expel citizens of Guede's type after they've committed serious crimes. Can an Italian citizen with dual nationality born outside of the EU be expelled?

BBC 2009 (prestige over Mail?:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8427250.stm

Quote:
Guede, who has joint Italian and Ivorian nationality, had chosen to be tried separately from the pair - in a fast-track trial behind closed doors - because he feared they may form a pact.


Daily Mail 2016:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... urant.html

CHRIS SUMMERS FOR MAILONLINE wrote:
Guede, who has joint Italian and Ivorian citizenship, was spotted dining with friends at a classy restaurant in the Italian city of Viterbo


After researching this more, I would not accuse Jewkes that much, I think it's the editors of the book, Lieve Gies and Maria Bortoluzzi (Italian!) that are the main culprits, if there are in fact any errors in the essays of that book. Maybe they have checked Guede's nationality issue and know for a fact that he is in fact an Italian citizen - couldn't check properly as I haven't got the book - yet, made an acquisition request to the uni library here, so might get to read it some day.

Jewkes refers to ch. 8 (should be chapter 9, another mistake by the editors, maybe they shuffled the chapters around and forgot to update the references, in any case they should've checked and corrected Jewkes' foreword) and Heim for the nationality ref. Julia Heim seems to be a very experienced translator of Italian texts, so don't see how this could be a translation error. Read bits of her essay (with the help of Google Books), it's ok stuff, standard stuff a' la the black otherness amongst the Italians, shown by discourse using the word "ivoriano", the black man etc.

Quote:
Race, a Floating Signifier, or Rudy Guede in the Italian Press

Julia Heim

Abstract

In this chapter Julia Heim uses semiotics, and cultural and postcolonial theories to discuss how Rudy Guede is represented in the Italian newspaper La Repubblica before, during, and after his conviction. Starting from the premise that identity is created by and through socio-political discourse, this in-depth linguistic investigation maps out the discursive strategies used by the Italian media to discuss Guede. Heim elaborates on the ways in which linguistic portrayals of Guede serve to simultaneously instil moral panic toward ‘others’ and reaffirm Italian/Non-Italian binaries by solidifying ethnobiological connections between national affiliation and criminality.


More about Julia Heim here:

http://www.queeritalia.com/project-team/



Bortoluzzi's essay "Voices of Self- and Other-Identification from a Pro-Innocent Community. Action-Oriented Discourses in Online Popular Forensics" in Social Media Discourse, (Dis)identifications and Diversities, 2017, also talks about Guede as an Italian national:

Bortoluzzi wrote:
Introduction

By sparking controversies and debates, there are events that epitomize translocal diversity and heterogeneity of public positioning in media and social media. The murder case of Meredith Kercher is such an event. Meredith Kercher, a British citizen, was brutally murdered in 2007 in Perugia, Italy, while staying there as an Erasmus Exchange student. The murder investigations led to a series of trials involving Raffaele Sollecito (an Italian), Amanda Knox (a US citizen) and Rudy Guede (a naturalized Italian of Ivorian origin).





Apparently, Gies and Bortoluzzi et al. have followed both Perugia Murder File and Injustice in Perugia since 2008 and attempted to contact both boards to have questionnaires administered in 2012 - never heard of this, have any of you? (See Design of Study in the above essay.) When they didn't succeed, they decided to focus on IIP pro-innocence campaigners. I'd think that the Rand board would've been a more interesting choice, the discussion was more intelligent and varied there. But of course, there were pro-guilt folks also cluttering the board.


More about Bortoluzzi and her research publications (associate professor of English in university of Udine):

http://uniud.academia.edu/MariaBortoluzzi



True or false, there are at least two books that now include claims that he's an Italian citizen. This is how fake facts and news get circulated (in case this is a fake fact, of course). Would be really nice to know what's the truth. Is there a way to check this somehow via Italian records offices?


Last edited by Rumpole on Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

In case anyone's interested, I copied some of the pages from Bortoluzzi's IIP essay that I found online, please find them attached in pdf format.


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Don't recall any psychologists queries here, Rumpole. Probably went to ORG.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:58 am   Post subject: GUEDE'S RESIDENCY   

Hi, Rumpole, from The Micheli Sentencing Report
Quote:
[44] To him were attributed, with a more detailed examination, some 14 partial fingerprints which, collected by the Scientific Police and adjudged as useful for probable comparisons, did not result in being attributed to any of the subjects identified as possible visitors to the apartment; amongst said partials, the major part of which had been collected from different locations in Ms KERCHER’s room, the first, marked as “Exhibit B”, was – with annotations from 16 November 2007 by the Legal Identity Section – attributed with absolute certainty to Mr GUEDE, from whom there was prior fingerprint data from 2005 and in the same 2007. On 16 June 2005, Mr GUEDE had been placed under legal proceedings according to Statute No 189/2002, in the ambit of matters concerning his Italian residency permit, while on 27 October 2007 (ergo, just five days before the murder) he had been identified in the Milan jurisdiction and had been charged without arrest [a piede libero] for theft, receipt of stolen goods, holding and carrying arms.

No eveidence he had applied for the EC long term residency permit or Italian permanent residency card Carta di Soggiorno though it's possible that he applied for it in 2005.
Quote:
2.1 Carta di Soggiorno
The website of the Italian state police indicates that the EC long-term residence permit has replaced the carta di soggiorno since 8 January 2007 (Italy 29 Mar. 2010b)

One thing is certain though; Guede cannot obtain Italian citizenship because of his criminal record (see http://www.refworld.org/docid/50b611d92.html)

Technically, his residency permit can be revoked after his sentence is served though that might be different if he did receive permanent residency. Somehow I don't see him being deported back to the Ivory Coast.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:11 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

And the only complaint regarding Mignini in the Knox and Sollecito case was a complaint about his 'misuse of public funds' CGI video produced in court, went no where.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:17 pm   Post subject: MCCANN LAWSUIT REJECTED   

Portugal Resident
Quote:
March 21, 2017 - This may be the end of the line for the long-running civil case taken out by the parents of Madeleine McCann to ‘silence’ their bête-noir, former PJ coordinator Gonçalo Amaral.

After all the hullaballoo and recriminations filling UK tabloids, Supreme court judge Dr Jorge Manuel Roque Nogueira has rejected the complaint lodged by Kate and Gerry McCann over what they considered a frivolous decision by fellow judges to uphold Gonçalo Amaral’s right to freedom of expression, sanctioning the intrinsic legality of his damning thesis ‘Maddie: the Truth of the Lie’.

Roque Nogueira’s decision, taken earlier today and published in PDF format online, means that Amaral has won the case for the third and possibly final time.

There is no higher court in Portugal to which the McCanns can take this fight - and the grounds for appeal to the European Court of Human Rights are “highly dubious”, said a source, particularly as Supreme Court judges referred to tenets set out by the ECHR in their 75-page deliberation.

Daily Mail
Quote:
Furious Gerry and Kate made it clear through lawyers that they strongly disagreed with the judges' 'erroneous' premise the lifting of their status as 'arguidos' or formal suspects did not mean they were innocent of any involvement in their daughter's May 3, 2007 disappearance.

So, not exonerated or acquitted then.
Don't see Sollecito or Knox going far at ECHR either.
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:00 pm   Post subject: Re: MCCANN LAWSUIT REJECTED   

Ergon wrote:
Portugal Resident
Quote:
March 21, 2017 - This may be the end of the line for the long-running civil case taken out by the parents of Madeleine McCann to ‘silence’ their bête-noir, former PJ coordinator Gonçalo Amaral.

After all the hullaballoo and recriminations filling UK tabloids, Supreme court judge Dr Jorge Manuel Roque Nogueira has rejected the complaint lodged by Kate and Gerry McCann over what they considered a frivolous decision by fellow judges to uphold Gonçalo Amaral’s right to freedom of expression, sanctioning the intrinsic legality of his damning thesis ‘Maddie: the Truth of the Lie’.

Roque Nogueira’s decision, taken earlier today and published in PDF format online, means that Amaral has won the case for the third and possibly final time.

There is no higher court in Portugal to which the McCanns can take this fight - and the grounds for appeal to the European Court of Human Rights are “highly dubious”, said a source, particularly as Supreme Court judges referred to tenets set out by the ECHR in their 75-page deliberation.

Daily Mail
Quote:
Furious Gerry and Kate made it clear through lawyers that they strongly disagreed with the judges' 'erroneous' premise the lifting of their status as 'arguidos' or formal suspects did not mean they were innocent of any involvement in their daughter's May 3, 2007 disappearance.

So, not exonerated or acquitted then.
Don't see Sollecito or Knox going far at ECHR either.


Nice catch there. It led me to this astonishing link.

http://portugalresident.com/millions-of ... %9D-online

Visits 81 million! So getting sued is one way to promote the truth?!
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:01 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yes, Pete, a team of dedicated volunteers, like ours, getting the truth out there.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:48 pm   Post subject: "Indisputable presence ... at the time of the murder" ?!!!   

Ergon wrote:
Attached is a copy of the Appeals Court decision filed February 10, 2017. Source:
It notes he had changed his story 5 times.


Thank you for providing this, Ergon, and thank you to the volunteers who made the effort to translate it!!!

BUT it needs to be said that there MUST be a mistake!

Either the learned judges are incorrect, or the translation of their words is incorrect - for example, this translation would have us believe that the appellate court wrote:


"...in the light of the judicial truth established in the acquittal ruling concerning the indisputable presence of Knox in 7 Via della Pergola at the time of the murder..."


Based on my last look at the ISF thread (and the 5 or so remaining lay people who, sadly, are STILL beginning and ending each day with pro-Knox posts, LOOooooooong past the point where case-related news is being regularly published), those simply CANNOT be the words of the appellate court judges because the following (apparently) incurable obsessives* with NOTHING else to do - EVER (not even for ONE week!) - are ADAMANTLY contending that the Supreme Court did NOT affirm the finding that Knox was 'indisputably present during the murder':

a) a guy who is apparently unemployed ('sup, Decimals - STILL struggling to get a decent LSAT score?! XD)
b) a guy who is apparently drunk and/or stupid
c) a guy who is apparently fat and lonely ('sup, El Duderino-still dreaming of fetching coffee for your idol?!)
d) a guy who is apparently a compulsive liar
e) a guy who is apparently ALL OF THE ABOVE - unemployed, drunk, stupid, fat, lonely AND a compulsive liar! (Time to take up that banjo, Old Man! Law just isn't your thing and neither are the sciences.)



* the ISF set are STILL continuing to offer nothing more than this:

-ZERO hours of professional legal training at an accredited university,
-ZERO hours of professional medical training at an accredited university,
-ZERO hours of training in forensic sciences (esp. genetics) at an accredited university,
-ZERO hours of professional training as a homicide detective, &
-ZERO hours of professional training as a translator.

( p-((( Wake me up if Erasmus44 ever finds the energy to articulate his reasoning at an altitude lower than the 35,000 foot level - he's the only anti-prosecution poster I've seen truly worth a second thought. IIRC, he once (adroitly) skipped any detailed discussion of whether the Supreme Court affirmed the finding that Knox 'was there', and the frightening implications of such a finding, by citing the need to get input from a learned Italian lawyer as to what the Supreme Court actually wrote - it seems he now has PRECISELY THAT courtesy of not just one, not just two, but THREE learned Italian jurists who are not only lawyers but APPELLATE JUDGES!!! Evidently, e44 was once a brilliant scholar, so I sincerely hope his slumming with furriers and fugitives hasn't turned him into just another internet "bum" ... )
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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:09 pm   Post subject: Re: "Indisputable presence ... at the time of the murder" ?!!!   

Jackie wrote:

BUT it needs to be said that there MUST be a mistake!

Either the learned judges are incorrect, or the translation of their words is incorrect - for example, this translation would have us believe that the appellate court wrote:


"...in the light of the judicial truth established in the acquittal ruling concerning the indisputable presence of Knox in 7 Via della Pergola at the time of the murder..."


Based on my last look at the ISF thread (and the 5 or so remaining lay people who, sadly, are STILL beginning and ending each day with pro-Knox posts, LOOooooooong past the point where case-related news is being regularly published), those simply CANNOT be the words of the appellate court judges because the following (apparently) incurable obsessives* with NOTHING else to do - EVER (not even for ONE week!) - are ADAMANTLY contending that the Supreme Court did NOT affirm the finding that Knox was 'indisputably present during the murder':


Yup. The acquitting Marasca panel stated multiple times that Knox's presence in the apartment at the time of the murder was 'certain'. And the groupies tried to play games with mistranslation and syntax and vocabulary, but the Florentine judges confirmed it completely.

Quote:
( p-((( Wake me up if Erasmus44 ever finds the energy to articulate his reasoning at an altitude lower than the 35,000 foot level - he's the only anti-prosecution poster I've seen truly worth a second thought. IIRC, he once (adroitly) skipped any detailed discussion of whether the Supreme Court affirmed the finding that Knox 'was there', and the frightening implications of such a finding, by citing the need to get input from a learned Italian lawyer as to what the Supreme Court actually wrote - it seems he now has PRECISELY THAT courtesy of not just one, not just two, but THREE learned Italian jurists who are not only lawyers but APPELLATE JUDGES!!! Evidently, e44 was once a brilliant scholar, so I sincerely hope his slumming with furriers and fugitives hasn't turned him into just another internet "bum" ... )


He's a disappointment. An expert in intellectual property law, but whatever he was taught when young about criminal law he's clearly prepared to forget on behalf of this particular defendant and her crew.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
...
Raffaele Sollecito: “I’m innocent but treated as guilty”
By Roberto Arduini

Raffaele Sollecito doesn’t give up. That they had refused to award him a compensation for wrongful imprisonment did not get him down. And speaking on Radio Cusano Campus during ECG, the format led by Roberto Arduini and Andrea Di Ciancio, he announces: "We have already appealed, even if waiting for an answer will take a few months."


Yes, indeed, Sollecito doesn't easily give up being a nuisance / pest. On March 22, he gave an interview to Ryan Tubridy on RTÉ Radio 1 in the UK. He just can't leave Meredith's parents and siblings in peace.

Amanda Knox Former Boyfriend / ‘It has been hard to get on with my life’

RTÉ Radio 1

Download it below or from HERE if you like, but be careful: as everybody knows, it's a kind of slow torture to have to listen to Sollecito's English. ;) A short segment of 1 min 30 sec in the preview was enough for me.

Attachment:
Raffaele Sollecito March 22, 2017 Interview to Ryan Tubridy.mp3


ETA: Sorry, a correction: RTÉ Radio 1 is a radio station based in Ireland, but still, this Talk Show is also broadcast in the UK.


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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Knox is not far behind Sollecito. For tweets and pictures from the 2017 Innocence Network Conference, March 24-25 in San Diego (with Amanda Knox in attendance), go here:

https://twitter.com/amamaknox?ref_src=t ... r%5Eauthor

This time, Knox was allowed to attend it without her mom, accompanied just by her boyfriend. ;)

Quote:
CA Innocence Project‏ @CA_Innocence Mar 25
On my page you'll see cats - or you'll see anti-death penalty stuff - Amanda Knox talks about when to be public vs private - #INconf2017

Quote:
CA Innocence Project @CA_Innocence Mar 25
social media is the great equalizer - #AmandaKnox - she also touches on the neg effects of social media - warning about haters #INconf2017

https://twitter.com/CA_Innocence/status/845674113322684417

I still can't understand what she has been doing by hitching her wagon to the Innocence Network in the US. She was convicted and acquitted (NOT exonerated) in Italy. She is just a hanger-on.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:51 pm   Post subject: Innocence Network Conference 2017   

guermantes wrote:
Knox is not far behind Sollecito. For tweets and pictures from the 2017 Innocence Network Conference, March 24-25 in San Diego (with Amanda Knox in attendance), go here:

I still can't understand what she has been doing by hitching her wagon to the Innocence Network in the US. She was convicted and acquitted (NOT exonerated) in Italy. She is just a hanger-on.


That would be the third INC event she's attended in a month, guermantes, plus another coming up in Florida next month.

This was probably attractive because, California.

Peter Neufeld and Barry Scheck will be there along with Hollywood producers (she's looking for someone to make a movie about her) hbc)

Innocence Network Conference

4:00pm-6:00pm
Welcome Gathering for Women Exonerees in the Exoneree Lounge (Marina 6- for women exonerees only)

10:15am– 11:30am
Litigating False Confession Innocence Cases: Time-Tested and Innovative Approaches to the Use of Expert Testimony

and,
Creating and Maintaining an Innocence Organization

11:45am- 1:00pm
Working with the Media in Innocence Cases: Ethical & Strategic Considerations
(Network Members Only)

1:45pm – 3:00pm
Don't Forget to Look Under the Small Rocks!

and
Using Social Media in More Advanced Ways

2:45pm – 4:00pm
The GoFundMe Effect - Crowd funding for Your Organization and Clients

3:15pm – 4:30pm
Resources for Reform: Tools for Effective Policy Advocacy (Network Members only)

and
Podcasting for Innocence

4:45pm- 5:45pm
Presentation of Exoneree Art Project (the hand drawing will be there).

Of course she'll be there.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:36 am   Post subject: OPEN LETTER TO SAUL KASSIN   

SAUL KASSIN CAN'T COUNT
Can't help himself either nw)

Open letter to Professor Kassin: Show your data!
Amanda Knox and Saul Kassin at the American Psychology Law Society Conference 2017
Seattle, Washington
March 16th-18th, 2017
Saul Kassin:
Quote:
Kassin: Knox was questioned for over 50 hours but none was recorded #APLS2017
Source: https://twitter.com/JeffKukucka/status/ ... 6066445312

Kassin:
Quote:
I've never seen a case more steeped in misinformation than Amanda Knox's #apls2017
Source: https://twitter.com/jessicaswanner/stat ... 3527454720

Attachment:
Knox Kassin II.jpg

So, where did the magical 50 hrs interrogation in 5 days that 'inevitably lead to false confessions' first appear? Professor Kassin will not say, or provide background information to the crowded rooms of trainee law psychologists he and Amanda Knox have been repeating this claim to. So, here's the background he seems to have missed.
Injustice in Perugia
Quote:
In the five days after the murder of Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox was interrogated by detectives for 43 hours - Steve Moore

CBS News-48 Hrs
Quote:
Amanda's focus was the appeal - and she soon had a world-renown ally.
"This case horrifies me. I'd like to say it shocks me. But I've seen others like it," said psychologist and professor Saul Kassin, an expert on police interrogations.
On his own initiative, Kassin filed a report with the Italian (appeals) court on Amanda's behalf. It outlines some of the psychological reasons why Amanda could have confessed to a murder she did not commit.
"Amanda Knox, like everybody, has a breaking point. She reached her breaking point," he explained. "Eight or 10 or 12 police officials in a tag team-manner come in and interrogate her... Their goal is a confession and they're not leaving that room without it."

Note: Er, no record of Kassin's report in the Hellmann court files, and Amanda Knox never released it either. But Hellmann ruled she should have known Patrick Lumumba was innocent and upheld her 3 year conviction for criminal defamation (calunnia) anyway.
Innocence Project
Quote:
Why Confessions Trump Innocence
Saul M. Kassin
John Jay College of Criminal Justice, City University of New York

Armed with a prejudgment of Knox’s guilt, several police officials interrogated the girl on and off for four days. Her final interrogation started on November 5 at 10 p.m. and lasted until November 6 at 6 a.m., during which time she was alone, without an attorney, tag-teamed by a dozen police, and did not break for food or sleep.

CNN Transcripts
Quote:
CNN May 8, 2011
CURT KNOX, FATHER: Between the time that they actually found Meredith and when Amanda was arrested, there was roughly a 90-hour timeframe. And I'm ball parking the numbers there. During that time, Amanda was in the police station for questioning for -- I believe it was 52 hours.

Now we're getting a little closer to the truth. Knox was at the station for maybe 52 hours, but actually wasn't 'interrogated' for that long.

Then going back to when those figures first came out: King 5 News
Amanda Knox's family says confession coerced
By LINDA BYRON / KING 5 News
Posted on November 13, 2009 at 12:16 PM

Quote:
She was just flat scared to be alone," Curt said. "So she went down to the police station with him and they were split into two rooms and then they started going at them. With physical and mental abuse for 14 hours. No food, water, no official interpreter."
Prosecutors say Amanda's accounts swung wildly: She wasn't at the cottage the night of the murder. She was there, but drunk in another room.
But her parents say she was coerced by police.
"(They said) you know, you're never going to see your family again," Curt said. "You're going to jail for 30 years. You need to come up with something for us, you're a liar. Come up with something for us. Envision something; throw something out there."

There's a summary here: Dalla Vedova/Ghirga appeal to Hellmann
Quote:
(p.12) Amanda Knox è stata sottoposta ad esame ed attività investigative e tra il 2 e il 6 novembre 2007, fino al momento del fermo, ha fornito sommarie informazioni e risposto a domande della A.G. come segue:
l 2 novembre 2007, ore 15.30 VENERDI’: totale ore …………..
12,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox, senza indicazione della chiusura.
Testimoni fino alle 3.00 am del 3 novembre 2007
l 3 novembre 2007, ore 14.45 SABATO totale ore ………………
8,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox, senza indicazione della chiusura.
Testimoni indicano fino alle 22,00.
l 4 novembre 2007, ore 14.45 DOMENICA: totale ore ………….
12,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox, ed accesso alla villetta di Via
della Pergola dalle ore 14.45 alle ore 21. Telefonata di Amanda alla zia dice 5 ore
di interrogatorio in questura
l 5/6 novembre 2007, ore 01.45 LUNEDI’/MARTEDI’: totale ore ……..
5,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox inizio alle ore 22.00 del 5
novembre 2009.
l 6 novembre 2007, ore 05.45 MARTEDI’: totale ore ……………….
3,45
Verbale di “spontanee dichiarazioni” della Knox con successivo breve
memoriale. Dalle ore 1,45 alle 5,45 e memoriale alle ore 14,00.

In 5 giorni la Knox è stata sentita per un totale di circa 53,45 h.

Except, I count a total of 40.45 hrs, hmm, not all of which was spent being interrogated. She was in the waiting room with the others, as confirmed by her own phone records, e-mails home, texts, etc. Not to forget head stands, cartwheels, yoga poses and general faffing around with Sollecito. The defense realized their math was off so included an additional 13.0 hrs. to the time of her memoriale though they counted their own figures twice, Lol. (see attachment below). Keep in mind her attorneys never argued the time was unreasonable, only that the accusation should not be considered for the calunnia charge. Their summary was only to show how long she had been 'present for examination' in that time she was at the Questura till her arrest, and even then, their figures were wrong..

According to Rita Ficarra's Testimony
Knox was let go by the evening of the first day so the 12 hours interrogation figure is incorrect. She also had an official interpreter by 12:30, (Nov. 06) was fed and allowed to rest in between, wasn't slapped, and there were only two detectives present.

Twitter user Soletrader4U analyzed her phone records and case files and came up with a more realistic figure of 17.45 hrs of actual interrogation.

Given that to be the case, I invite Professor Kassin to correct his figures and explain how, according to his research, Amanda Knox could have produced a "False Confession" over the span of 17.45 hours of interrogation over 5 days? Did you actually 'file a report on Amanda Knox' with the court?

ETA: See below on defense consultant Prof. Carlo Caltagirone of the University of Rome, who refers to Prof. Kassin's published work on false memories and confession. We haven't been able to locate any report by Professor Kassin concerning Amanda Knox in the case files.


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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I do not even subscribe to 17.45 hours questioning. I think it may have been as little as 12 hours and this encompasses two visits to the cottage, one with Romanelli and Mezzetti, when the questioning would have been about simple things such as the living arrangements and lifestyles of the girls, and the boys down below.

From Knox's letter to Nencini -

"I stayed in Italy and was at the police's beck and call for 50 hours over 4 days, convinced that I could help them find the murderer." Oh dear, how terrible!

It is interesting to read that Ficarra says that Knox was released in the evening of the first day. However she stayed on at the Questura, being driven back to Sollecito's flat by Romanelli and her boyfriend Zaroli at about 6 am. Presumably Sollecito was with them but I don't know.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:13 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi, jape. Kassin's thesis is that prolonged interrogation caused Knox to falsely accuse Lumumba. If his data's wrong then so is his conclusion. Something I said abt Gill too, once :)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:53 pm   Post subject: SUPPLEMENTARY NOTES RE: OPEN LETTER TO KASSIN   

Addendum to the OPEN LETTER TO KASSIN posted above.

Attachment:
Kassin Overview II.jpg


From the Wiki, attached are the reports from defense consultant Carlo Caltagirone of the University of Rome with bibliography of publications on false memory and confession, and the testimony of Caltagirone and Patumi (expert on the effects of marijuana on memory).

From the testimony, p. 15:
AVVOCATO DALLA VEDOVA - Ma quindi sempre seguendo la logica se
ci si trova davanti a una situazione dove la persona per
suggestione esterna, per elementi stressogeni nello sforzo di
ricostruire un qualcosa e prendiamo il caso in specie cioè di un
interrogatorio che agli atti risulta essere fatto su vari giorni
per varie ore e noi ne abbiamo calcolate dal 2 fino al 6
novembre il giorno in cui è stata arrestata la nostra assistita,
circa 42 ore di interrogatorio o comunque 42 ore di messa a
disposizione dove è stata comunque sottoposta a domande, vorrei
capire un lampo improvviso di un ricordo in queste condizioni
che tipo di attendibilità ha ai fini anche medici, se fosse un
suo paziente che in una situazione di stress analogo o comunque
R.G. 8/08 - 25/09/2009 c/ Knox Amanda Marie + 1 16
fa una dichiarazione di un fatto che comunque risulta essere
prodotto da una situazione di questo tipo si può considerare
attendibile?

Translate:
LAWYER DALLA VEDOVA - But then again, following the logic if
we are faced with a situation where the person is receiving
external suggestion, under stressful elements in an effort to
reconstruct something and take the case especially that of an
interrogation that takes place over a number of days
for several hours and we have computed from 2 to 6
November, the days she was held for assistance,
about 42 hours of interrogation or at least 42 hours of being
available where she was still subjected to questions, I would like
to understand if a sudden flash of a memory in these conditions
what kind of trust, for medical purposes, if it were
his patient that in a situation of stress or analogous anyway,
makes a statement of fact which still appears to be
products from a situation of this kind can be considered trustworthy?

So CDV corrects himself immediately, counting 42 hours as the time she was available for questioning.

Can Kassin's paper published in APA magazine and repeated at AP-LS 2017 thus be considered 'trustworthy'?


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:08 pm   Post subject: STILL AT IT ABOUT "HATERS"   

Amanda Knox seems still fixated on the "haters" out there. According to Bruce Fischer, there's only a few of us left? nw) ss)

California Innocence Project
CA Innocence Project‏
@CA_Innocence
social media is the great equalizer - #AmandaKnox - she also touches on the neg effects of social media - warning about haters #INconf2017
9:29 AM - 25 Mar 2017

I dunno, but for most of us it's the whodunit and howdidshegetawaywithit, that gets us la_)


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:05 pm   Post subject: ABOUT THOSE "HATERS"   

Though Knox might want to have a talk with her own website master, ahem ss)
JusticeInRome


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:35 pm   Post subject: WHINY, PREDICTABLE, MICHAELB   

PS: Who promptly, predictably, went whining w-(( to the sub boss, bringing him out of hibernation dm-)
Source: Haters gonna hate hate because they are vile, vile :)


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:27 pm   Post subject: HERE BE NARCISSISTS   

From a really good and timely article in Psychology Today
Why Gaslighters Accuse You of Gaslighting
Accusing you of their own behavior is a classic tactic of gaslighters.
Feb 13, 2017
Quote:
Gaslighters, people who try to control others through manipulation, will often accuse you of behaviors that they are engaged in themselves. This is a classic manipulation tactic. Read more to learn why this tactic works so well....

..Some gaslighters unconsciously project out of guilt or shame. In the case of narcissistic personality disorder, narcissists feel they are totally okay, and think that everyone else has a problem. This is called ego-syntonic behavior. It is very difficult to get a narcissistic gaslighter to get help through counseling — because they think you have the problem, not them. Projecting behavior can get to the point where a gaslighter delusionally believes that they are being persecuted by the victim — when in fact the opposite is true...

..Whatever the origin of the gaslighter’s accusatory behavior, they are still 100 percent responsible for it. Treat all cases of accusations towards you as what they are — accusations, not fact. There is no need to spend your extra energy trying to defend yourself – because it will never be good enough. Instead, take a hard look at whether the behavior the gaslighter accuses you of is actually something they are doing. Don’t let smoke and mirrors get in the way of uncovering the gaslighter’s behavior for what it is — manipulation of you and others by way of accusation and distraction.

Describes Knox (and her enablers) to a T. But this really goes beyond projection. Knox seems to have this active persecution complex going on, that the Kerchers are after her, those of us who comment on the case will stalk her at film premieres and Innocence Conferences,
Attachment:
Peter Cushing.png

yet at the same time takes perverse delight at taunting the victim and her family.

This, was the sexual sadism and psychopathy that led to a very sad murder.


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:41 pm   Post subject: NEW DOCUMENTARY ON AMANDA KNOX   

France 2 will run a TV program Amanda Knox, Angel or Demon? April 09 at 2300h, local time.

Amanda Knox, ange ou démon ?
Émission du 09/04/2017
Quote:
Amanda Knox a très vite opposé ceux qui défendaient mordicus son innocence et ceux qui la croyaient coupable ; ceux pour qui elle était victime d’un système judiciaire expéditif à la solde du sensationnel, et ceux qui voyaient en elle une criminelle perverse, soutenue par un puissant lobbying américain.
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Offline jamie


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:24 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

23:00 in France is 22:00 GMT/BST.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:45 am   Post subject: "indisputable presence"   

Did France 2 happen to mention (per the translation of the recent appellate court ruling in Florence) "the judicial truth established in the acquittal ruling concerning the indisputable presence of Knox in 7 Via della Pergola at the time of the murder..." ????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Or were they as biased (or compromised*) as the people behind the Netflix "documentary"? (Apparently, they were so busy indicting 'the media', they forgot they were ALSO part of 'the media' and, therefore, ALSO under a duty to report what the Supreme Court Justices ACTUALLY wrote about the defendants, not what Knox's PR man wishes** they'd written 8-) )


* as in: if you want access, you gotta play by the PR team's rules (i.e., there's only ONE side to the story worthy of a respectful treatment - HER side!)


** "indisputable presence" is about as far from a 'forceful declaration of innocence' as you can get! XD
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:10 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

This program wasn't viewable due to geographic limitations. Hopefully some of our European members saw it or it will show up on their website in a week's time.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:45 pm   Post subject: AMANDA KNOX, ANGEL OR DEMON?   

Here's the video: Comodi, Follain, Lumumba, Mignini and more.

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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:07 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Last word goes to Marasca - is it just me or did Marasca look ... 'troubled' as his last word falls from his lips and he looks to the floor and appears to sigh (1:32:17)?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:39 am   Post subject: AMANDA KNOX DOCUMENTARY REVIEW   

It was a total waste of time. No sub titles, too many voice overs in French making the Italians sound like they'd sniffed helium. On the one hand this, on the other hand that, very French. The portentous music and bad camera work and lighting, took 1:28 hrs. to get to Hellmann, ignored Nencini, then zoomed to the acquittal in 4 minutes. It was like a really bad clone of the Netflix documentary, TBH.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:05 am   Post subject: e44 and the specter of AK's "indisputable presence"   

hugo wrote:
Jackie wrote:

Quote:
( p-((( Wake me up if Erasmus44 ever finds the energy to articulate his reasoning at an altitude lower than the 35,000 foot level - he's the only anti-prosecution poster I've seen truly worth a second thought. IIRC, he once (adroitly) skipped any detailed discussion of whether the Supreme Court affirmed the finding that Knox 'was there', and the frightening implications of such a finding, by citing the need to get input from a learned Italian lawyer as to what the Supreme Court actually wrote - it seems he now has PRECISELY THAT courtesy of not just one, not just two, but THREE learned Italian jurists who are not only lawyers but APPELLATE JUDGES!!! Evidently, e44 was once a brilliant scholar, so I sincerely hope his slumming with furriers and fugitives hasn't turned him into just another internet "bum" ... )


He's a disappointment. An expert in intellectual property law, but whatever he was taught when young about criminal law he's clearly prepared to forget on behalf of this particular defendant and her crew.


Route E44: The path to enlightenment or the road to ruin?
Image
Well, Hugo, I'm not ready to write him off just yet, in fact, on account of his impressive credentials, I'd be very, very interested to see him try to help enlighten us by flying over the evidence at a little lower altitude - he seems to prefer to stay at the 35,000 ft level, where you can't make out some of the nasty little details.

Assuming it's proper to look at a case from that lofty altitude in the first place, his reasoning appears to be fairly unobjectionable: prosecution DNA experts say 'black'; defense DNA experts say 'white'; so let's bring in some 'independent DNA experts' to decide the matter for us.

But that kind of approach allows the 'independent experts' (aka the THIRD set of experts, aka The C Team) to completely USURP the role of the triers (those who are actually on the panel, and those of us who like to pretend we are), who are to consider ALL of the evidence, each piece in relation to the whole - which is NOT something expert witnesses do !!! For example, a DNA expert offers his/her opinion in respect of only the particular DNA matter in issue and, at no point, is s/he called upon to evaluate the DNA evidence in light of the REST of the (non-DNA) evidence: lies to police, failed alibis, eye witnesses, cell tower pings, computer logs, etc., etc., for that is rightfully the domain of the triers and ONLY the triers. (e.g. What are the chances that RS’s FULL autosomal DNA profile got onto the clasp by way of a lower probability tertiary transfer (via sloppy police), rather than a higher probability primary or secondary transfer (via murder and/or staging), given that AK and RS also lied to police???)

e44's 'Leave it to the C Team' approach also seems to elide any evaluation of:

a) whether and to what the degree C and V can be safely considered as "experts" (IIRC, according to Follain, neither had ANY professional experience doing 'technical searches' of crime scenes - NONE; there are also claims V has a rather sordid history in connection with another criminal case, and in connection with substandard conditions in her own lab; etc.);

b) whether and to what degree C and V can be safely considered as "independent" (IIRC, they were seen to be socializing with members of the defense team during the trial (!!!), and Dr. C (IIRC) had given the judge his medical certificate for flying); and (most importantly)

(c) whether and to what extent their testimony should be given any weight (IIRC, C & V made important concessions when faced with cross-examination: MK's full DNA profile was, in fact, found in the sample taken from the blade; they also agreed cross-contamination in the lab could be ruled out because of the procedures in place (including a 6 day gap); RS's full autosomal DNA profile was, in fact, on the clasp; during the evidence and argument phase of the trial there were, apparently, no studies worthy of publication in a prestigious peer-reviwed journal proving that tertiary transfer of touch DNA did, in fact, occur; even when, in 2015, such a study was finally published it made it clear that such transfers were relatively low probability events, even under ideal conditions in a lab (it also incidentally demonstrated how DNA can remain on a hard surface even after cleaning with bleach); V undermined her credibility and objectivity by including erroneous statements about legal matters completely outside the realm of her professional training (BARD standard and its application); etc.).

That said, e44 does seem to recognize his limitations in terms of understanding DNA testing of crime scenes (which is more than can be said for the whole motley crew of (apparently) unemployed lay people who STILL seem to be spending each day AND night of their lives on IA/ ISF pretending they are geneticists, lawyers, doctors, journalists, translators and "innocence project" volunteers).

For example, here are 2 instances where, to his credit, e44 admits he has no idea what the FOA's imaginary forensic geneticists are on about (can’t say I blame him - after all, one is just an introductory chem teacher, and the other appears to be an unemployed internet bum who alternates between long bouts of pretending to be a ECHR lawyer and short bouts of pretending to be a CSI):

Hidden Content: show
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Hidden Content: show
Image



I suppose this is why e44, like the rest of his FOA pals, is, evidently, COMPLETELY unable to address Dr. Balding’s assertions re DNA “contamination” (not only routine at crime scenes but easily accounted for by his mathematical analysis):



[Oh, Wise One: How does the passage of 46 days and a displacement of just 39 inches magically ‘create’ RS’s full autosomal profile on the clasp? If you answer 'passive, tertiary transfer of touch DNA by sloppy police', then why wasn’t AK’s DNA also dragged onto the clasp? (after all, she LIVED there whereas RS only entered the cottage twice, briefly - surely her DNA was more likely to be lying around, just waiting to be tracked into the murder room by 'stupid police' ... just how unlucky is Solly the Blade?!) - indeed, if tertiary transfer of touch DNA happened so readily in his case, why was none of his DNA found on the floors, seats, seat levers and belts of his own car (which, unlike the cottage, I assume he’d entered more than twice)?!]

And then there is this third example:

Hidden Content: show
Image


I find this post of e44’s VERY puzzling for 4 reasons in particular:

1) Why would a lawyer, esp. a HARVARD lawyer, want to see people tried in the media on the basis of '7 second soundbites' offered by publicity-seeking consultants-for-hire who are spewing opinions that are NOT TESTED by way of cross-examination in a court of law (esp. in cases where the consultant was approached by the defendant's family)?!

2) Why would a lawyer, esp. a HARVARD lawyer, be so (seemingly) blind to the incentives facing ‘experts'-for-hire - does he not see why consultants would be very, very keen to offer biased, pro-defense commentary as a means of becoming a 'go-to spokesperson' for a high profile defendant's media campaign and, thereby, securing a small fortune in terms of free advertising of their name and services to a wide TV audience, and/or much-needed funding for, I dunno … say, a sleepy innocence project that isn’t achieving much in its own state?!

3) Why would a lawyer, esp. a HARVARD lawyer, expect to see ANY unsolicited, pro-prosecution commentary from 'expert’ guns-for-hire in the media given that, in almost any jurisdiction you can name, police and prosecutors are (unlike many defendants) prohibited by statutes from sharing the contents of investigatory files with 3rd parties?! (The $750 million defamation suit filed against Jimmy "I don't need to read the court documents" Clemente and his CBS friends is another clue as to why you don't tend to see a lot of 'experts' lining up to take shots at suspects/ accused.)

4) Why would a lawyer, esp. a HARVARD lawyer, simply assume that a defendant who is releasing (legally or otherwise) some of the contents of the police investigatory file to 3rd parties is not being very, very selective about what, exactly, is released and how, exactly, it is to be presented to the media?! (Does he ever ask himself what might be withheld by a self-serving defendant???)

And, finally, in terms of e44's conception of the BARD standard, read this example of his and ask yourself if it doesn't paint you into the 'absolute certainty corner'! ;-)

Image

Why would a lawyer, esp. a HARVARD lawyer, construe the BARD standard as something akin to 'absolute certainty' (would you want anything less than ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY when it comes to the health of YOUR YOUNG CHILD)?!

I'm sure e44 knows (knew?) this but it seems a refresher might do some good - In Victor v. Nebraska (92-8894), 511 U.S. 1 (1994), the Supreme Court noted that:
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
"The beyond a reasonable doubt standard is itself probabilistic."

Accordingly, the Court endorsed a jury instruction on the nature of the BARD standard that reads as follows:

"..absolute or mathematical certainty is not required.

You may be convinced of the truth of a fact beyond a reasonable doubt and yet be fully aware that possibly you may be mistaken. (Yo! e44! Who, other than Casey Anthony, would accept ANY possibility of being MISTAKEN when their YOUNG child is facing RABIES??????????!!!)

You may find an accused guilty upon the strong probabilities of the case, provided such probabilities are strong enough to exclude any doubt of his guilt that is reasonable.

A reasonable doubt is an actual and substantial doubt arising from the evidence, from the facts or circumstances shown by the evidence, or from the lack of evidence on the part of the state, as distinguished from a doubt arising from mere possibility [(think C+V's "anything is possible" testimony)], from bare imagination, or from fanciful conjecture."
_________________________________________________________________________________________

Alas, it seems that, like Hellmann and Marasca, e44 may - may - be falling into a double error: applying too strict a standard while, at one and the same time, applying it to one particular element of the evidence at a time, viewing it in isolation, divorced from the larger context in which it occurs, and discarding it as insufficient if it cannot prove guilt to an absolute certainty when standing alone.

He does not seem willing to consider 'each piece in relation to the whole’ (for example, what are the chances that RS’s FULL autosomal DNA profile got onto the clasp by way of a lower probability tertiary transfer (via sloppy police), rather than a higher probability primary or secondary transfer (via murder and/or staging), given that AK and RS also lied to police, and that AK was “indisputably present” during the murder, and C, and D, and E…and Z?)

(C…Z would cover, for example, everything from anatomical compatibility on bathmat print and luminol hit in hall (to the point of “probable identity”) to eye witness testimony - this may be the reason Marasca looks like he has a heavy heart as he reflects on the acquittal ruling in the France 2 piece … he certainly doesn’t look happy.)

I seem to recall reading that e44 once claimed he studied under Prof. Dershowitz - I have to say that, at this point, I find the professor more persuasive than the student (but I remain completely open to smart, honest people selling smart, honest ideas with logic, reason and common sense -I want to figure this one out).

Which reminds me - this one is for the ISF's bagel-brain (always in search of PGP-supporting legal experts and PGP-supporting forensic experts) - top these two, bagel boy:Image


Last edited by Jackie on Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:17 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Leaving C and V's witterings about ambient dust and lab contamination aside, the only seemingly plausible explanation for contamination of the bra clasp specimen 165B is that proffered by Peter Gill.

I have inserted my own musings on this into "Justice on Trial" as below.

"In addition the recourse quoted extracts from articles written by Peter Gill (whom we can recall was mentioned by Berti and Barni as a leading expert in the field of DNA analysis, with particular reference to the statistical interpretation model he had helped to develop and propagate) as to the likelihood of tertiary transfer contamination.

Quite how Bongiorno thought she could get away with trying to introduce evidence in this manner, from an expert who had not given evidence in chief and hence had not submitted to cross-examination at any stage, and indeed after the evidence phase was well and truly over, rather beggars belief.

Gill, indeed, had appeared on Italian TV to discuss the case, the Porta a Porta programme, with Sollecito and his father pending the final appeal to the Supreme Court. Despite his reputation Gill’s hypotheses as to contamination, also mentioned in his book “Misleading DNA Evidence : reasons for miscarriages of justice”, had, and he should have known it, no objective corroboration in the case papers.

Nevertheless it is instructive to consider Gill’s main hypothesis, introduced at this late stage in the proceedings. The hypothesis is that Sollecito grasped the door handle to Meredith’s bedroom before, as he says, trying to force the door. In doing so, he would have left his DNA on the handle and the investigators may have subsequently touched the handle, picking up his DNA and transferring it to the hooks on the bra clasp. Although there is no evidence at all for the door handle being touched by Sollecito or any forensic worker, in the case papers, or in the video of the forensic investigation, nevertheless perhaps we should consider the possibilty that Sollecito had done so, as on a presumption of innocence it is not an entirely unreasonable supposition. We then have to consider the likelihood that his DNA was then transferred to the hooks.

We have to remember that the door was forced open by Altieri. It was damaged in the process, the locking mechanism being broken. This was around 1 pm on the 2nd November. The bra clasp lay under a pillow beneath Meredith’s body which was not moved until Dr Lalli was allowed access after midnight. After that a forensic worker had noticed it under the pillow. It was photographed in situ and catalogued. Incidently, even in the photograph in situ, one of the hooks is shown as having been bent.

Gill’s hypothesis, as to tertiary transfer, although he misleadingly refers to it as secondary transfer, only begins to work on the assumption that one of the forensic workers had touched the outside door handle and then the hooks on the clasp, and without at any time changing gloves in between. We must, therefore, assume a lack of professionalism or at least a degree of carelessness on the part of the forensic workers.

Yet the investigators, we know, failed to collect the clasp, an omission that can only reasonably be explained by it having become hidden, and indeed it was subsequently found under a rug.

However, having been forced open, the door appears to have remained more or less wide open, maintaining easy access in and out of the room for the operatives without it having to be touched. That said maybe it was touched by someone. It was dusted for fingerprints. It does appear to have moved marginally (compare the photographs in Chapter 14), perhaps the better to photograph the blood on the indoor handle and of course Knox’s lamp, behind the door, would have been of interest. None of these particular operatives are likely to have then touched the bra clasp and, of course there is only the theoretical possibility that they had touched the handle. Nevertheless they might have done so and then touched something else in the room, for someone else to touch. We would then have moved to a 5 step transfer of DNA for accidental contamination of the hooks on the bra clasp, many hours after Sollecito theoretically deposited his DNA on the handle.

Do we have anything here that works as a reasonable proposition compared to primary transfer, given Meredith’s state of undress, an obvious sexual assault, severance of the clasp from the bra, and the condition of the hooks as they were found? After at least about 7 hours (up to the arrival of the forensic team) would not the alleged substance on the door handle have become less amenable for touch transfer and, as to tertiary transfer, would not the worker, in the five or so additional hours between the arrival of the forensic team from Rome and the discovery of the bra clasp underneath Meredith’s body, or even later, depending on when it was handled, if it was, prior to collection, have touched, and, we have to assume, without at any time changing gloves, other items of interest in the room, on which there was no DNA, transferring DNA precisely on to the hooks, but not the fabric to which the hooks were attached?

Of course we also have to consider whether the transfer could have occurred when the clasp was collected, 46 days after it had first been noticed. The same points as above apply, but with the delay being in itself an additional problem for the postulated transfer, and, of course, the exercise was all recorded on video, there being no discernable pressure on or manipulation of the hooks by the operatives that the viewer can see.

But if the hypothesis works for Sollecito, then what about others who may have touched the handle around about the same time as Sollecito? Would not the door only be forced once it was established that it was indeed locked? So Altieri, or any of the other witnesses present on that morning might have grasped the handle to test the door, and all of them after Sollecito would have done so. However there are only two profiles on the bra clasp – Meredith’s and Sollecito’s.

Gill’s hypothesis has little merit. It is highly speculative compared with the more obvious alternative.

Another subsidiary hypothesis of his in his book involves a misrepresentation of fact. Neverthelss it seems to have been picked up on and approved by the 5th Chambers. In his book Gill writes that the knife was placed, uncovered, in a “shoebox” by the police and despatched to Rome. The knife could thus have been contaminated by DNA already in the box. As we already know it was not a shoebox, let alone a box that had any connection with Meredith and the cottage.

Gill’s book would be better entitled “DNA Evidence: Misleading Reasons for a Miscarriage of Justice”."
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jape wrote:
Gill’s book would be better entitled “DNA Evidence: Misleading Reasons for a Miscarriage of Justice”."

Apt title, jape. He actually inferred in a BBC interview the shoebox belonged to Meredith (and BBC had to correct its transcript when contacted).
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:52 am   Post subject: Re: e44 and the specter of AK's "indisputable presence"   

Jackie wrote:


[Oh, Wise One: How does the passage of 46 days and a displacement of just 39 inches magically ‘create’ RS’s full autosomal profile on the clasp? If you answer 'passive, tertiary transfer of touch DNA by sloppy police', then why wasn’t AK’s DNA also dragged onto the clasp? (after all, she LIVED there whereas RS only entered the cottage twice, briefly - surely her DNA was more likely to be lying around, just waiting to be tracked into the murder room by 'stupid police' ... just how unlucky is Solly the Blade?!) - indeed, if tertiary transfer of touch DNA happened so readily in his case, why was none of his DNA found on the floors, seats, seat levers and belts of his own car (which, unlike the cottage, I assume he’d entered more than twice)?!]

I seem to recall reading that e44 once claimed he studied under Prof. Dershowitz - I have to say that, at this point, I find the professor more persuasive than the student (but I remain completely open to smart, honest people selling smart, honest ideas with logic, reason and common sense - I want to figure this one out).

Which reminds me - this one is for the ISF's bagel-brain (always in search of PGP-supporting legal experts and PGP-supporting forensic experts) - top these two, bagel boy:Image

Me too, Jackie, and I have wandered over there once in a while to correct some way out of line stuff but get waylaid by questions why the PGP support John Kercher's 'mistruths' in his book when the courts "prove" otherwise and other questions of the 0 and 12th kind sur-)
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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:36 pm   Post subject: Re: e44 and the specter of AK's "indisputable presence"   

Jackie wrote:
[

Route E44: The path to enlightenment or the road to ruin?
Image



How 'Erasmus 44' can fail to know that the state does not enlist hired-gun 'experts' to speak out of court, in books, articles and TV interviews, and that only the defence does this, in certain big-ticket cases, I can't imagine. How 'Erasmus' can ignore the views of Professor Balding, I can't imagine either.

Not long ago 'Erasmus' was in Perugia on holiday, and happened across Dr Mignini in the street, and told his fellow IIP groupies that 'this would have been a great time to have a Boston Cream Pie handy'. The guy's in Italy, under Italian jurisdiction, and he thinks it might be amusing to cream-pie an Italian prosecutor in the face for daring to charge a white blue-eyed American with the murder of a mere mixed-race Briton. He actually thinks that's big and clever.


Maybe, in his retirement, he should stick to stand-up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ahSV76aRo


Then again, maybe not.


Last edited by hugo on Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:50 pm   Post subject: Re: AMANDA KNOX DOCUMENTARY REVIEW   

Ergon wrote:
It was a total waste of time. No sub titles, too many voice overs in French making the Italians sound like they'd sniffed helium. On the one hand this, on the other hand that, very French. The portentous music and bad camera work and lighting, took 1:28 hrs. to get to Hellmann, ignored Nencini, then zoomed to the acquittal in 4 minutes. It was like a really bad clone of the Netflix documentary, TBH.


I think this is a very harsh critique of the recent documentary from France 2 (jackie's youtube link). In my opinion it is pretty thorough and yes, it gave air time to the defence as well as to the prosecutors, and had far too much of the bleater, but there wasn't much of vital importance IMO which was missed out.

I would have liked them to have more clearly demolished the 'non alibi' (failed, according to the Marasca Bruno judgement), and I would have not lingered so long on Lumumba (who even in French wasn't very lucid). The 'dramatic' 1/4 profile shots introducing Maresca (and some other protagonist) were indeed pretty naff, (but I didn't notice the music!)

I was confused by the use of the 'generic' apartment and knife images - France 2 did use some authentic crime scene video and photographs - but to add in this 'stock' video seemed a peculiar choice to make. They did have some good genuine video (probably from their own archives) of the candlelit commemoration of Meredith, an also of the near riot following the Hellman verdict.

Overall, I think the France 2 film deserves the description 'documentary', (which is not what I would say for the Netflix offering).
Maybe someone will subtitle it into English, which would make it more accessible, but kudos to the producer/director for collecting interviews with so many major players (from both sides).
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:41 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Today's news:

Genoa, April 11, 16:02

Sollecito sues judges
He asks three million for "responsibility" of judges

Sollecito [...]"now presents the bill to the judges: three million."[...]

Sollecito had initiated a claim for unjust detention which in February was denied. He has now sued, under the law on civil liability of judges, nine magistrates, among them public prosecutors, investigating judge (GIP), justices of the Assize Court of Appeal [of Florence] asking for compensation for having misrepresented the facts. The procedure is in Genoa. Writes the Genoese edition of La Repubblica. The last word is up to the judge Pietro Spera to whom the case has been entrusted.


ANSA

Perugia, April 11, 17:12

Sollecito contests/challenges no to compensation for wrongful imprisonment
Lawyers demanding cancellation of the decision

As learned by ANSA, Sollecito's lawyers, Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori, seek an annulment of the decision of the Florentine judges. The date of the hearing in the Supreme Court has not yet been set. In their appeal, the lawyers of the young Apulian argued that the motivations (Motivazioni) for the rejection of the claim "resemble a sentence of conviction." "The judges - said the lawyers - have taken into account the arguments of the judgment of the Court of Appeal of Florence which convicted Sollecito and Knox, not however those of the Supreme Court which acquitted them permanently pointing out errors in the investigation."


ANSA

------------------------------------

As I said before, Sollecito & Co. would try anything to get their hands on money. His tactics and lawsuit will fail, and he will be ordered to pay civil court costs and the other party's legal expenses. Good luck with that. ;)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi, guermantes, interesting how Sollecito always appears on TV the day before he files another law suit :)

He also moved recently to Parma, to be able to file in the more legally friendly environs there I imagine.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Excerpt from an article in La Repubblica (Genoa):

Local jurisdiction in Genoa. "They were wrong, and they ruined my life, now got to pay" (VIDEO, new PHOTOS)
By Marco Preve

No one knew that he had sued, based on the new law on civil liability of judges, nine of public and state prosecutors, preliminary investigation judges and judges of the Court of Assizes [of Perugia] and the Assize Court of Appeal [of Florence] asking for compensation - we are talking about a figure of around three million - for having misrepresented the facts, circumstances and evidence relating to the murder of Meredith Kercher.

The case is based in the Ligurian capital because the last judges to have convicted Sollecito are those of the Court of Appeal of Florence, and, for processes involving Tuscan magistrates, the competent court/tribunal is that of Genoa.

The Civil Liability Act (Law) specifies the grounds "for willful misconduct or gross negligence (grave error)" [of judges]. Only in the second case, the [popular] jurors/judges involved [in Sollecito's conviction(s)] will also be cited (subpoenaed). But the last word is up to the judge Pietro Spera to whom the case has been entrusted. Today, he will have to decide whether to engage in the lawsuit also the 12 jurors of the Court of Assizes of Perugia and those of the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence.

Formally, in the courtroom, has been cited "Presidenza del Consiglio" (?) on behalf of the judges. To defend it will be the State Attorney Giuseppe Novaresi. If convicted, the State, after paying compensation, will seek redress in turn against individual PMs, investigating judges (GIPs) and [other] judges cited.

Among the main targets of Sollecito is Perugian prosecutor Giuliano Mignini who led the investigation.


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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:12 am   Post subject: More Anti-Solly Commentary in Italy   

Thanks, Guermantes!

To the extent that google translate can be trusted, and to the extent that the top rated comments can be said to reflect popular sentiment, it would seem that many people in Italy are NOT buying what Solly the Blade is selling (his revolting FB games didn't help him either):

"It has a nice little saying it does not convince anyone. He and his partner were there as he died murdered a girl. They never made clear and their history is still a dirty story, other than to denounce! The still respectability they lost altogether.
Condividi9 risponde241

_________________________

redwolf01
This man has never taught that a bell'oblìo in some cases is the best solution? Adhering to the news, it seems that at that juncture in the apartment there were the four in question. If only one is paying for the crime, and he with his better half fled to the former usa, you are free, give thanks and silence ...
Condividi4 risponde201

_________________________

I think that
What will determine the court called upon to judge the Presidency of the Council that, if convicted, will seek redress on individuals responsible, I do not think, in any case, it will serve to make it more acceptable Sollecito. To be unpleasant and repugnant has put much of his behavior from the written advice on fb and he considered mere "college prank!"


______________________________________

I guess the upside to all of these law suits and appeals will be giving at least one particularly sad, half-witted, gravy-sweating, booze hound something to do for the rest of his life from the comfort of his Cheetos-encrusted sofa.

It should also give .org, .net, IA & ISF a total of about 6 loyal posters well into the next decade.

However, I'm not sure I'll be one of them - I used to hold out hope that some of these actions would shed some light on what really happened in Perugia but I am growing very, very weary of this ongoing series of contradictory judgments filled with incredibly ornate but legally meaningless turns of phrase that simply do NOTHING to clarify the matters in issue.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Excerpt from an article in La Repubblica (Genoa):

Local jurisdiction in Genoa. "They were wrong, and they ruined my life, now got to pay" (VIDEO, new PHOTOS)
By Marco Preve

The Civil Liability Act (Law) specifies the grounds "for willful misconduct or gross negligence (grave error)" [of judges]. Only in the second case, the [popular] jurors/judges involved [in Sollecito's conviction(s)] will also be cited (subpoenaed). But the last word is up to the judge Pietro Spera to whom the case has been entrusted. Today, he will have to decide whether to engage in the lawsuit also the 12 jurors of the Court of Assizes of Perugia and those of the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence.

Formally, in the courtroom, has been cited "Pesidenza del Consiglio" (?) on behalf of the judges. To defend it will be the State Attorney Giuseppe Novaresi. If convicted, the State, after paying compensation, will seek redress in turn against individual PMs, investigating judges (GIPs) and [other] judges cited.

Among the main targets of Sollecito is Perugian prosecutor Giuliano Mignini who led the investigation.[/border]

Since every court has said he was at fault for lying, don't think this will turn out well for him, guermantes. He does whine a lot though.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:52 am   Post subject: Re: e44 and the specter of AK's "indisputable presence"   

hugo wrote:
Jackie wrote:
[

Route E44: The path to enlightenment or the road to ruin?
Image



How 'Erasmus 44' can fail to know that the state does not enlist hired-gun 'experts' to speak out of court, in books, articles and TV interviews, and that only the defence does this, in certain big-ticket cases, I can't imagine. How 'Erasmus' can ignore the views of Professor Balding, I can't imagine either.

Not long ago 'Erasmus' was in Perugia on holiday, and happened across Dr Mignini in the street, and told his fellow IIP groupies that 'this would have been a great time to have a Boston Cream Pie handy'. The guy's in Italy, under Italian jurisdiction, and he thinks it might be amusing to cream-pie an Italian prosecutor in the face for daring to charge a white blue-eyed American with the murder of a mere mixed-race Briton. He actually thinks that's big and clever.


Maybe, in his retirement, he should stick to stand-up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6ahSV76aRo


Then again, maybe not.


LOL

Let's just say he's nowhere near the caliber of Harvard Law's most famous lawyer-turned-comic, Greg Giraldo (RIP) - now THAT was a (viciously) FUNNY guy! https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=561_1339137559
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2ne4rp

But, credit where it's due, e44's routine made me laugh more than a few times - his little fixation with "jerking off in elevators" was a bit of a shock! ;-)

In any event, I have no doubt he could defend his views if he were to drop by, but I get the sense that he's a bit of a team player (as in Team FOA) and more than a little burned out on talking typing about this case.

I just can't figure out why he's hanging with that weird little group of furriers, fugitives, fraud artists and fat housewives when someone with his credentials could be volunteering at a real innocence project ...


Last edited by Jackie on Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:28 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:08 am   Post subject: Re: e44 and the specter of AK's "indisputable presence"   

Ergon wrote:
Me too, Jackie, and I have wandered over there once in a while to correct some way out of line stuff but get waylaid by questions why the PGP support John Kercher's 'mistruths' in his book when the courts "prove" otherwise and other questions of the 0 and 12th kind sur-)


I'm glad to see you giving poor ol' Vixen some support over there - the Old Men Who Love Knox are not very genteel (I don't always agree with her views but I admire her willingness to take on the 'useful idiots' spawned in the wake of the lies spewed by Marriott & Friends long ago).

Alas, one minute the PIP are citing court findings as 'proof', the next they are calling the courts a joke.

In this regard, they have something in common with the PGP ;-)

The Italian courts have served up such a confusing morass of contradictory findings and rulings that there's something for everyone to love and something for everyone to hate.

It would be funny were it not for the fact that a grave injustice has been done - I just don't yet know what kind of injustice I'm looking at: a wrongful acquittal or a wrongful prosecution/ conviction ...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:04 am   Post subject: Re: AMANDA KNOX DOCUMENTARY REVIEW   

Sallyoo wrote:
Ergon wrote:
It was a total waste of time. No sub titles, too many voice overs in French making the Italians sound like they'd sniffed helium. On the one hand this, on the other hand that, very French. The portentous music and bad camera work and lighting, took 1:28 hrs. to get to Hellmann, ignored Nencini, then zoomed to the acquittal in 4 minutes. It was like a really bad clone of the Netflix documentary, TBH.


I think this is a very harsh critique of the recent documentary from France 2 (jackie's youtube link). In my opinion it is pretty thorough and yes, it gave air time to the defence as well as to the prosecutors, and had far too much of the bleater, but there wasn't much of vital importance IMO which was missed out.

I would have liked them to have more clearly demolished the 'non alibi' (failed, according to the Marasca Bruno judgement), and I would have not lingered so long on Lumumba (who even in French wasn't very lucid). The 'dramatic' 1/4 profile shots introducing Maresca (and some other protagonist) were indeed pretty naff, (but I didn't notice the music!)

I was confused by the use of the 'generic' apartment and knife images - France 2 did use some authentic crime scene video and photographs - but to add in this 'stock' video seemed a peculiar choice to make. They did have some good genuine video (probably from their own archives) of the candlelit commemoration of Meredith, an also of the near riot following the Hellman verdict.

Overall, I think the France 2 film deserves the description 'documentary', (which is not what I would say for the Netflix offering).
Maybe someone will subtitle it into English, which would make it more accessible, but kudos to the producer/director for collecting interviews with so many major players (from both sides).



I thought it was fitting to have the final interview go to (a rather troubled-looking) Marasca, and our friend "Soulmate" was kind enough to post this translation on .org today:

Soulmate wrote:

Im looking at the documentary posted by Jackie.
The final words of Marasca are enigmatic. His decision is "firm from a legal point of view but...as a citizen, he does not know."

The very final words of the lady commentator was, Guide is the murderer but he did not strike alone.


So, as Hugo put it, not exactly a ringing endorsement from the man who annulled the proceedings.

Just LOOK at the man's face (and his sigh) right after "he" says, "Je ne sais pas" (at 1:32:17).

Such an awful state of affairs ...


Last edited by Jackie on Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The final words of Marasca are enigmatic. His decision is "firm from a legal point of view but...as a citizen, he does not know."

"Firm from a legal point ot view" as in - "We had the last word and that's that, unless someone applies for judicial review before the Council of Magistrates, and seemingly no one wants to do that."

"Firm" as in - "just how firm we were is apparent from the host of dogmatic statements we made" - "dogmatic" meaning completely unsupported by rational argument, or in many cases any argument, and indeed in contravention of the rules of evidence.

What's "firm from a legal point of view" about flouting the Criminal Code of Practice rules as to the grounds for appeal to the Supreme Court, or acting completely outside their remit in determining the sufficiency of the evidence?

Has Marasca retired? If not he must be looking forward to the day.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:50 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jape wrote:
The final words of Marasca are enigmatic. His decision is "firm from a legal point of view but...as a citizen, he does not know."

"Firm from a legal point ot view" as in - "We had the last word and that's that, unless someone applies for judicial review before the Council of Magistrates, and seemingly no one wants to do that."

"Firm" as in - "just how firm we were is apparent from the host of dogmatic statements we made" - "dogmatic" meaning completely unsupported by rational argument, or in many cases any argument, and indeed in contravention of the rules of evidence.

What's "firm from a legal point of view" about flouting the Criminal Code of Practice rules as to the grounds for appeal to the Supreme Court, or acting completely outside their remit in determining the sufficiency of the evidence?

Has Marasca retired? If not he must be looking forward to the day.

That is correct, jape, seemingly no one wanted to apply for judicial review before the Council of Magistrates.

Marasca retired shortly after the verdict, and Bruno became the chief of the 5th chambers (based on his seniority).
He did give an interview on March 30, 2015 Corriere Della Serra

explaining his reasoning, but the sigh, is probably because he got an earful from other judges.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:24 am   Post subject: weird new .org poster   

Who is "rocklee1957" over on .ORG? Am I really being stalked and threatened by Team Guede? ;-)

Maybe I should join the FOA for my own protection. They hate him and they claim to be good with guns.

But seriously, WHO is this "R.L."?

I've got a bad relapse of the flu this week (thanks, Delta Airlines Flt#666!) so I've been downing a lot of NyQuil and I'm not sure of anything right now ... ss-)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:35 am   Post subject: Re: weird new .org poster   

Jackie wrote:
Who is "rocklee1957" over on .ORG? Am I really being stalked and threatened by Team Guede? ;-)

Maybe I should join the FOA for my own protection. They hate him and they claim to be good with guns.

But seriously, WHO is this "R.L."?

I've got a bad relapse of the flu this week (thanks, Delta Airlines Flt#666!) so I've been downing a lot of NyQuil and I'm not sure of anything right now ... ss-)

I wouldn't know what's happening at ORG, Jackie, so won't comment. Nothing to do with us here.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:25 am   Post subject: Re: weird new .org poster   

[quote="Ergon"]
Well, don't believe "Billy" the Liar, .ORG is still up and running, and has some interesting discussions going on (apart from Team Guede attacking me).

Why does Billy like to keep asserting it was shut down for legal reasons? It's been humming along and seems to have a lot more activity than the furrier's site (which, at this point, looks very nearly dead).

Billy really does seem to live in an imaginary world: he keeps asserting that PMF.org no longer exists, that Mach is the ONLY man in Italy who objects to the acquittal, that the Supreme Court did not affirm that Knox 'was there', that he's a 30-something hockey player, and, more recently, that he's a volunteer for the California Innocence Project:

Image

So ... now he's a young law student in California?! XD

Just for fun, I had a look at the CIP website, where they have a picture of each of the lawyers, assistants and law students volunteering there and, I can assure you, NONE of them look like this *** ****:
Hidden Content: show
Image

See for yourself (nothing but young people): https://californiainnocenceproject.org

What's going on here?! Is this more of his compulsive lying, is it the screech, a mental problem or ... were you guys wrong about him being a retired minister in Canada???
______________________________________________________________
...
______________________________________________________________

picture of a pumpkin
This Post has been edited by a Moderator
Details: Sorry, Jackie, but I can't comment on some thing happening on ORG nor should you be porting your conflict with him here-I make no judgement on either side, nor do I wish to-when it should be properly addressed by moderators there. Yes, he's a member here though he just wandered over, made a few comments then left. I do hear tales about how he's got ORG riled, but as long as he keeps it civil and within bounds here, not my concern.


My bad - I should have sent the deleted screenshot to you privately.

It's just I'm very concerned that the apparent threat might have been posted by someone in Italy that could very well be dangerous.


Last edited by Jackie on Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:17 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:08 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Excerpt from an article in La Repubblica (Genoa):

Local jurisdiction in Genoa. "They were wrong, and they ruined my life, now got to pay" (VIDEO, new PHOTOS)
By Marco Preve

The Civil Liability Act (Law) specifies the grounds "for willful misconduct or gross negligence (grave error)" [of judges]. Only in the second case, the [popular] jurors/judges involved [in Sollecito's conviction(s)] will also be cited (subpoenaed). But the last word is up to the judge Pietro Spera to whom the case has been entrusted. Today, he will have to decide whether to engage in the lawsuit also the 12 jurors of the Court of Assizes of Perugia and those of the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence.

Formally, in the courtroom, has been cited "Pesidenza del Consiglio" (?) on behalf of the judges. To defend it will be the State Attorney Giuseppe Novaresi. If convicted, the State, after paying compensation, will seek redress in turn against individual PMs, investigating judges (GIPs) and [other] judges cited.

Among the main targets of Sollecito is Perugian prosecutor Giuliano Mignini who led the investigation.[/border]


Since every court has said he was at fault for lying, don't think this will turn out well for him, guermantes. He does whine a lot though.


I thought Bongiorno said that the decision to deny compensation was going to be appealed. It seems not now given the above. Or are we going to have two cases trying to screw money from the State going on together?

The Sollecitos do seem to have more money than common sense, unless they have a backer without common sense as well.
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Offline Sallyoo


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:20 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jape wrote:

I thought Bongiorno said that the decision to deny compensation was going to be appealed. It seems not now given the above. Or are we going to have two cases trying to screw money from the State going on together?

The Sollecitos do seem to have more money than common sense, unless they have a backer without common sense as well.


With the Sollecitos it's not "either/or" - it's BOTH! nin-)

They have appealed to the cassation court to get the Florence no-compensation ruling overturned
http://www.ansa.it/puglia/notizie/2017/ ... 98839.html

and they have also started proceedings to sue a sack load of judges (and, potentially lay judges) as reported by Guermantes et al earlier.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:06 pm   Post subject: THE TRIALS OF RAFFAELE SOLLECITO   

jape wrote:
Ergon wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Excerpt from an article in La Repubblica (Genoa):

Local jurisdiction in Genoa. "They were wrong, and they ruined my life, now got to pay" (VIDEO, new PHOTOS)
By Marco Preve

The Civil Liability Act (Law) specifies the grounds "for willful misconduct or gross negligence (grave error)" [of judges]. Only in the second case, the [popular] jurors/judges involved [in Sollecito's conviction(s)] will also be cited (subpoenaed). But the last word is up to the judge Pietro Spera to whom the case has been entrusted. Today, he will have to decide whether to engage in the lawsuit also the 12 jurors of the Court of Assizes of Perugia and those of the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence.

Formally, in the courtroom, has been cited "Pesidenza del Consiglio" (?) on behalf of the judges. To defend it will be the State Attorney Giuseppe Novaresi. If convicted, the State, after paying compensation, will seek redress in turn against individual PMs, investigating judges (GIPs) and [other] judges cited.

Among the main targets of Sollecito is Perugian prosecutor Giuliano Mignini who led the investigation.[/border]


Since every court has said he was at fault for lying, don't think this will turn out well for him, guermantes. He does whine a lot though.


I thought Bongiorno said that the decision to deny compensation was going to be appealed. It seems not now given the above. Or are we going to have two cases trying to screw money from the State going on together?

The Sollecitos do seem to have more money than common sense, unless they have a backer without common sense as well.

Hi, jape, the Sollecitos do have more money than sense, and Raffaele had his bank account enriched by the $975,000 advance from Simon and Schuster as well. The rest of the 'backing' is political, from the Berlusconi/Northern Alliance/Radical parties.

You now have two cases trying to screw the state over. Bongiorno announced she'd filed an appeal to the Supreme Court over the Florence rejection (Judge Bruno, presiding over 5th chambers?), and Sollecito and his er, other attorney Brizioli are carrying out the other suit in Genoa. Which he's entitled to do, based on the 1988 legislation (amended 2015) Italy: Civil Liability of Judges

Not known is who he's suing, exactly. The legislation applies to judges or magistrates. Is he suing the prosecutors and lay judges (jurors) at Massei as well? Or is it so many judges per trial, Massei, Chieffi, Nencini, Martuscelli?

Here's the 1988 Act

and the

2015 Act

This brings Italian Law into concordance with EU law, but the right to sue a judge was already established earlier. However, the burden of proving 'gross negligence' or 'fraud' rests on Sollecito, especially when there is a pretty high bar for 'judges exercising their normal duties'.

Also unclear how he added up $3millions for his claim. The law sets the penalty at 1/2 the annual salary of the judge, so with 12 charges=avg. salary of $500,000? OK then huh-)
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:24 pm   Post subject: Re: THE TRIALS OF RAFFAELE SOLLECITO   

Ergon wrote:
jape wrote:
Ergon wrote:
guermantes wrote:
Excerpt from an article in La Repubblica (Genoa):

Local jurisdiction in Genoa. "They were wrong, and they ruined my life, now got to pay" (VIDEO, new PHOTOS)
By Marco Preve

The Civil Liability Act (Law) specifies the grounds "for willful misconduct or gross negligence (grave error)" [of judges]. Only in the second case, the [popular] jurors/judges involved [in Sollecito's conviction(s)] will also be cited (subpoenaed). But the last word is up to the judge Pietro Spera to whom the case has been entrusted. Today, he will have to decide whether to engage in the lawsuit also the 12 jurors of the Court of Assizes of Perugia and those of the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Florence.

Formally, in the courtroom, has been cited "Pesidenza del Consiglio" (?) on behalf of the judges. To defend it will be the State Attorney Giuseppe Novaresi. If convicted, the State, after paying compensation, will seek redress in turn against individual PMs, investigating judges (GIPs) and [other] judges cited.

Among the main targets of Sollecito is Perugian prosecutor Giuliano Mignini who led the investigation.[/border]


Since every court has said he was at fault for lying, don't think this will turn out well for him, guermantes. He does whine a lot though.


I thought Bongiorno said that the decision to deny compensation was going to be appealed. It seems not now given the above. Or are we going to have two cases trying to screw money from the State going on together?

The Sollecitos do seem to have more money than common sense, unless they have a backer without common sense as well.

Hi, jape, the Sollecitos do have more money than sense, and Raffaele had his bank account enriched by the $975,000 advance from Simon and Schuster as well. The rest of the 'backing' is political, from the Berlusconi/Northern Alliance/Radical parties.

You now have two cases trying to screw the state over. Bongiorno announced she'd filed an appeal to the Supreme Court over the Florence rejection (Judge Bruno, presiding over 5th chambers?), and Sollecito and his er, other attorney Brizioli are carrying out the other suit in Genoa. Which he's entitled to do, based on the 1988 legislation (amended 2015) Italy: Civil Liability of Judges

Not known is who he's suing, exactly. The legislation applies to judges or magistrates. Is he suing the prosecutors and lay judges (jurors) at Massei as well? Or is it so many judges per trial, Massei, Chieffi, Nencini, Martuscelli?

Here's the 1988 Act

and the

2015 Act

This brings Italian Law into concordance with EU law, but the right to sue a judge was already established earlier. However, the burden of proving 'gross negligence' or 'fraud' rests on Sollecito, especially when there is a pretty high bar for 'judges exercising their normal duties'.

Also unclear how he added up $3millions for his claim. The law sets the penalty at 1/2 the annual salary of the judge, so with 12 charges=avg. salary of $500,000? OK then huh-)


Ah, mention of Brizioli reminds me that Sollecito has (at least) THREE court cases/appeals ongoing.

Quite soon (I think later this month?) there is due another audience (or out of court settlement) in the case concerning the 'slander' in the Honor Bound book, and here Sollecito is being defended by Brizioli.

Then we have the recourse against the Florence 'no compensation' ruling, where Sollecito has Bongiorno on the team.

The cherry on the cake is the 'judge suing' adventure - but I cannot find any reference to who is working for Sollecito on this one. Ergon has credited Brizioli with this (hopefully) thankless task, but no press coverage mentions either his name, nor that of Bongiorno. So, who has he got?

Anyway - in the laRepubblica Genova story covering the judge suing, there is a video of the bleater, (with hopeless sound recording), but engagingly titled:
Dieci anni dopo Sollecito si racconta: "Servirebbe un film anche su di me. Rivoglio la mia vita"
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:42 pm   Post subject: Re: THE TRIALS OF RAFFAELE SOLLECITO   

Italian media reporting further on his civil suit Ansa Italia Cronaca

It's against the nine judges of the Florence Court of Appeals who denied him compensation but there was a hearing Tuesday-no news yet- to see if he can include 'procurator generals' (that would be Mignini) and the judges at the Massei and Nencini courts as well.

I believe, but could not confirm Brizioli was representing him. While Bongiorno did file an appeal to Cassazione it seemed like a hail Mary pass. My understanding is he must exhaust all avenues before going the civil route but also that if she had argued before the Genoa court it would be in the news.
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:59 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I'm not quite wiling to accept some of what you say.

The recourse against the Florence judgement, which involved three judges, not nine, (awarding no compensation) has been lodged, by Bongiorno, with the cassation court, as is her right on behalf of her client. This is very straightforward in legal terms, and there is plenty of precedent, and no politicolegal downside for Bongiorno.

The completely different case lodged against the nine (so far) magistrates/judges, however, is relatively ground-breaking stuff. It would not have been possible to bring such a case before 2015/6. It's a dilemma for Bongiorno. Will she succumb to the temptation of the assured publicity resulting from her having a presence in this high profile novel case? Or will she decide that discretion is the better part of future fees, and that alienating the Italian judiciary will irretrievably damage her brand?

There is absolutely no 'legalistic' connection between these cases, (and the Honor Bound case is another entirely separate case), so the notion that 'avenues must be exhausted before proceeding' is nonsense.

Where are you getting your information from? It is garbled to say the least. The Italian press (ANSA and other solid sources) are hedging a bit on just how many judges (potentially also lay judges) might get 'sued'. This is responsible reporting - there has never before been even the possibility of bringing a case like this, and they are not speculating on which Sollecito advocate is going to stick his (or her) head above the parapet.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:10 am   Post subject: THE TRIALS OF RAFFAELE SOLLECITO   

Sallyoo wrote:
I'm not quite wiling to accept some of what you say.

The recourse against the Florence judgement, which involved three judges, not nine, (awarding no compensation) has been lodged, by Bongiorno, with the cassation court, as is her right on behalf of her client. This is very straightforward in legal terms, and there is plenty of precedent, and no politicolegal downside for Bongiorno.

The completely different case lodged against the nine (so far) magistrates/judges, however, is relatively ground-breaking stuff. It would not have been possible to bring such a case before 2015/6. It's a dilemma for Bongiorno. Will she succumb to the temptation of the assured publicity resulting from her having a presence in this high profile novel case? Or will she decide that discretion is the better part of future fees, and that alienating the Italian judiciary will irretrievably damage her brand?

There is absolutely no 'legalistic' connection between these cases, (and the Honor Bound case is another entirely separate case), so the notion that 'avenues must be exhausted before proceeding' is nonsense.

Where are you getting your information from? It is garbled to say the least. The Italian press (ANSA and other solid sources) are hedging a bit on just how many judges (potentially also lay judges) might get 'sued'. This is responsible reporting - there has never before been even the possibility of bringing a case like this, and they are not speculating on which Sollecito advocate is going to stick his (or her) head above the parapet.

Hi, Sallyoo,
I got the information from the 2015 Act, in my earlier post today. Maybe I didn't highlight the links properly? viewtopic.php?p=131951#p131951
The relevant articles here: http://www.normattiva.it/uri-res/N2Ls?u ... 5-02-27;18
Quote:
Note all'art. 3: Si riporta il testo dell'articolo 4 della citata legge 13 aprile 1988, n. 117, come modificato dalla presente legge: «Art. 4. Competenza e termini. - 1. L'azione di risarcimento del danno contro lo Stato deve essere esercitata nei confronti del Presidente del Consiglio dei Ministri. Competente e' il tribunale del capoluogo del distretto della corte d'appello, da determinarsi a norma dell'articolo 11 del codice di procedura penale e dell'articolo 1 delle norme di attuazione, di coordinamento e transitorie del codice di procedura penale, approvate con decreto legislativo 28 luglio 1989, n. 271. 2. L'azione di risarcimento del danno contro lo Stato puo' essere esercitata soltanto quando siano stati esperiti i mezzi ordinari di impugnazione o gli altri rimedi previsti avverso i provvedimenti cautelari e sommari, e comunque quando non siano piu' possibili la modifica o la revoca del provvedimento ovvero, se tali rimedi non sono previsti, quando sia esaurito il grado del procedimento nell'ambito del quale si e' verificato il fatto che ha cagionato il danno. La domanda deve essere proposta a pena di decadenza entro tre anni che decorrono dal momento in cui l'azione e' esperibile. 3. L'azione puo' essere esercitata decorsi tre anni dalla data del fatto che ha cagionato il danno se in tal termine non si e' concluso il grado del procedimento nell'ambito del quale il fatto stesso si e' verificato. 4. Nei casi previsti dall'art. 3 l'azione deve essere promossa entro tre anni dalla scadenza del termine entro il quale il magistrato avrebbe dovuto provvedere sull'istanza. 5. In nessun caso il termine decorre nei confronti della parte che, a causa del segreto istruttorio, non abbia avuto conoscenza del fatto.».

Notes to art. 3: The text of Article 4 of the abovementioned law of 13 April 1988, no. 117 as amended by this law: "Art. 4. Competence and terms. - 1. The action for damages against the State must be exercised against the President of the Council of Ministers. Competent is the district court of the district court of appeal, to be determined in accordance with Article 11 of the Code of Criminal Procedure and Article 1 of the Implementation, Coordination and Transitional Rules of Criminal Procedure Code, approved by Legislative Decree no. 271. 2. The action for compensation of damage to the State may only be exercised when the ordinary means of appeals or other remedies provided for in the precautionary and summary measures have been exhausted and whenever the modification is no longer possible Or the revocation of the measure or, if such remedies are not provided, when the degree of the proceeding has been exhausted in the course of which it is established that the damage was caused. The application must be filed for a decade within three years from the time the action is probable. 3. The action may be exercised three years after the date on which the damage occurred if, in that period, the degree of the proceedings in which the matter has occurred has not been completed. 4. In the cases provided for by art. 3 the action must be promoted within three years of the expiration of the term within which the magistrate should have acted on the case. 5. In no case shall the time be commenced in respect of the party who, due to the secretary's inquiry, did not know the fact.

So, since the ordinary means of appeal for compensation were not exhausted?

Here, in Art. 1,
Quote:
Oggetto e finalita' 1. La presente legge introduce disposizioni volte a modificare le norme di cui alla legge 13 aprile 1988, n. 117, al fine di rendere effettiva la disciplina che regola la responsabilita' civile dello Stato e dei magistrati, anche alla luce dell'appartenenza dell'Italia all'Unione europea.

Subject matter and purpose 1. This Act introduces provisions to amend the provisions of Law 13 April 1988, no. 117, in order to enforce the discipline regulating the civil liability of the State and magistrates, also in the light of Italy's membership of the European Union.

so yes, I am surprised he tried to include the procurator general in this, or that Bongiorno might be involved, but you never know.

I do know from Art. 4 that popular judges can also be held liable
Quote:
Art. 4 Modifica dell'articolo 7 della legge 13 aprile 1988, n. 117 1. L'articolo 7 della legge 13 aprile 1988, n. 117, e' sostituito dal seguente: «Art. 7. - (Azione di rivalsa). - 1. Il Presidente del Consiglio dei ministri, entro due anni dal risarcimento avvenuto sulla base di titolo giudiziale o di titolo stragiudiziale, ha l'obbligo di esercitare l'azione di rivalsa nei confronti del magistrato nel caso di diniego di giustizia, ovvero nei casi in cui la violazione manifesta della legge nonche' del diritto dell'Unione europea ovvero il travisamento del fatto o delle prove, di cui all'articolo 2, commi 2, 3 e 3-bis, sono stati determinati da dolo o negligenza inescusabile. 2. In nessun caso la transazione e' opponibile al magistrato nel giudizio di rivalsa o nel giudizio disciplinare. 3. I giudici popolari rispondono soltanto in caso di dolo. I cittadini estranei alla magistratura che concorrono a formare o formano organi giudiziari collegiali rispondono in caso di dolo o negligenza inescusabile per travisamento del fatto o delle prove».

but didn't know where he got the number of 12 judges to sue (Times of London article) and since no information was given out :)

But yes, I did wonder how he got the figure of 3 million euros since, the legislation states compensation is limited to half the magistrates annual salary, net of deductions, unless fraud is involved. Does Sollecito (or Bongiorno) really want to go there?
Quote:
Modifica all'articolo 8 della legge 13 aprile 1988, n. 117 1. All'articolo 8 della legge 13 aprile 1988, n. 117, il comma 3 e' sostituito dal seguente: «3. La misura della rivalsa non puo' superare una somma pari alla meta' di una annualita' dello stipendio, al netto delle trattenute fiscali, percepito dal magistrato al tempo in cui l'azione di risarcimento e' proposta, anche se dal fatto e' derivato danno a piu' persone e queste hanno agito con distinte azioni di responsabilita'. Tale limite non si applica al fatto commesso con dolo. L'esecuzione della rivalsa, quando viene effettuata mediante trattenuta sullo stipendio, non puo' comportare complessivamente il pagamento per rate mensili in misura superiore ad un terzo dello stipendio netto».

Anyhow, those were the questions I asked, since the Italian papers weren't clear. Could be wrong, of course, but the legislation seemed straightforward. All available means must be exhausted, before you can go further.

ETA: On reflection, it may be that Art. 3 applies to the definitive acquittal, and not, ongoing suit for compensation. Again, I would be surprised you can sue the state twice, concurrently, but if it proves to be the case, I stand corrected.
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I now see where you are coming from, but it still appears to me that the compensation for unjust imprisonment case is quite separate from the application under Legge 27 (accusing the various magistrates of wilful misconduct or gross negligence). (I've called it an 'application' because we don't have much information about this 'case'.)

The 'unjust imprisonment' compensation case wasn't brought using Legge 27. It was heard in Florence, Tuscany (in the district of the last impugned judgement), under an article of the cpp. This case is appealed, and the court of cassation will have the final word, but I can't see anything in the 'all means to be exhausted' clause in Legge 18 of 27 Feb 2015 which insists that this case is finalised before starting the judge suing case.

The potential forthcoming Legge 18 case will be determined in Genova, Liguria, because the case must be heard in a district neighbouring that in which the 'magistrates' are accused of misbehaving.

The only mention of Brizioli in connection with this issue which I have been able to track down comes from a post on the ISP. I have been unable to find anything at all to support the notion that the Florence judges who denied the compensation claim are 'in the frame' for being sued.

I could, of course, be wrong - but it looks pretty straightforward to me!

(Bits in red are an edit, correcting the number of the law involved. Ergon posted accurate links (above) to the correct law, I just misread the number.)


Last edited by Sallyoo on Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline jamie


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sollecito is undergoing a mental breakdown. Bongiorno has submitted the standard automatic appeal to cassazione in the compensation case.

It's no surprise she has steered well clear of the ill considered writ at Genoa.

Once it is rejected, as it surely will be as none of the judges or prosecutors have faced any complaints against them, which would be the first port of call, where can he turn? What is Sollecito faced with, but another long struggle with appeals.

He is under great mental strain from realising the acquittal is not the happy ending he thought it would be when he went cap in hand to the Florence court. It's a shock to him that he is not viewed as exonerated or even innocent, compared to someone who has never been to trial or one found a simple, 'not guilty'.

Brizioli who is representling him in the Gumbel case appears to be responsible for filing the Genoa papers. His reputation came under a negative spotlight in the Monster of Florence case where he locked horns ferociously with Mignini.

It could be Brizioli taking on the writ is Brizioli seizing the opportunity to clash with Mignini again and this time get the better of him. Revenge is never a good motive for going to court. Brizioli will be in line for a scathing dressing down from the Genoa court for his poor and rash advice to his client.

Sollecito will either implode and end up self-medicating or worse, or explode and end up in a psychiatric ward or jail.

It's as though he wants the truth to come out, as it would be a massive relief not to carry the burden of the enormity of what he did. His family know he did it. You can imagine the great sense of shame Sollecito feels about this knowledge, even if he has no remorse at all for his heinous acts.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:53 am   Post subject: fit as a fiddle   

jamie wrote:
Sollecito is undergoing a mental breakdown.


C'mon, Jamie, he's perfectly normal!

Doesn't EVERYONE pose for pics with their fave knives and join 'He-Man-Women-Stabbers Clubs' (or whatever) on Facebook? :roll:

ImageImage

___________________________

PS Just a quick shout out to the "California Innocence Project's" newest law student volunteer, Lyin' Bill "What's a loci [sic]?" Williams! (You may not be on the CIP website yet, but if scientific illiteracy, lying, swearing and calling people names has anything to do with it, you'll be great, young fella! Stay Classy!)

Image

( "we"? "our"? "work"? drin-)? I fail to see how 5 old men using their nights and days to gang-mock one, lone woman on the ISF Knox thread could be reasonably construed as doing any useful "work" in a noble "mission" that meets the ends of Justice)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Vixen handles herself very well, Jackie. Just started a new thread discussing the Huddersfield University paper on the Psychology Of Trolls. Trolls then descend :)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The next Sollecito-Gumbel hearing is scheduled for April 28.
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Offline jamie


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sollecito's lawyer for the suit against the judges is named as Antonio Valerio Ciccariello.

http://ildubbio.news/ildubbio/2017/04/1 ... sollecito/
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Offline corpusvile


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

He gets a mention in a book about the case Jamie, not sure what stance the book takes as it's in Italian.
https://books.google.ie/books?id=FArHBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=Antonio+Valerio+Ciccariello&source=bl&ots=02NOoK9NLP&sig=P0LpG4LzfHlw2nxpeTNKHtnhGYk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwic2qGA9rLTAhXsIMAKHV05DgoQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=Antonio%20Valerio%20Ciccariello&f=false

His office is based in the picturesque, sleepy, quiet and most of all low crime city of erm, Napoli, known for its rubbish strikes & some legitimate businessman's group called the Camorra.
http://www.paginebianche.it/napoli/studio-legale-ciccariello-avv-ti-gaetano-valerio-p.1870325

Like Carlo Della Vedova's firm, Signor Ciccariello appears to be in a family based business, assuming he's the same bloke. Wonder if he knows Briziolli.
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:45 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Oh well found, jamie. Some more names to 'Google' for updates!
I think you'll find there are actually two Ciccariello advocates named in your article, Antonio, and Valerio. It looks as if those names came from the horse's mouth, so to speak, so they should be correct. They both seem to share a fancy address in the centre of Naples with avv. Gaetano Ciccariello. (There also seems to be a Fabio Ciccariello, who is an avvocato in Bari).
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Monday - thanks, we know TJMK is down.

The latest PHP version the hosts offer for this server (5.6) has dropped some functions our version of software has used since 2008.

Need to either wind us back to an older PHP or upgrade the software - erk! We'll see.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:59 am   Post subject: Re: fit as a fiddle   



was thinking that the knife impression on the pillow .. somealibi matched to the "brian tighe", expensive 'designer' knife sollecito carried. According to photo ^, it's the dimension of the kitchen knife.

Impression was the kitchen knife. Sollecito kept hold of his knife (could have been the one he carried into the 'questura' (police station) .. he carried it out of the house as he injured guede with it (re: german police photos of defensive wounds on guedes fingers).

I think the kitchen knife was from the cottage .. it's too cheap for sollecito, within his serviced apartment .. but knox did carry it back to his apartment. Guede took the phones, she took the knife. He used bleach to clean it .. he then broke the waste pipe as in his stoned paranoia, he was worried about blood traces down into the outflow. Story of the mop/flooding/wastepipe partially true. Their stories are fragments of each others experience (which wasn't much). That 'flooding' was in the morning; they had argued, then she was wandering around perugia in the morning, alone.

wrapping of text within pages doesn't appear to work (re: 'PHP')
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:25 am   Post subject: Re: THE PSYCHOLOGY OF A TROLL   

Ergon wrote:
A recent Washington Post article How researchers tried to understand one of Twitter’s oldest trolling groups caught my eye hbc)
Abby Olheiser
March 2
Quote:
Three-year-old Madeline McCann disappeared from a resort apartment in Portugal in 2007 while on a family vacation. Her British parents were dining nearby. The McCann disappearance, which has never been resolved, became a major British tabloid story. The daily media frenzy has since faded, but a decade later, a tight-knit group of Twitter trolls who are convinced that they have proven the McCann parents’ guilt in their daughter’s disappearance still discuss the case online every single day.

Gerald mccann received news about a judgement from portugal that went against them .. He railed about "twitter trolls". Sky news decided to "expose" one. Reporter Martin Brunt doorstepped 'Brenda Leyland', who they'd tracked down , through twitter- accused her of attacking the McCanns. All tweets were retrieved - she hadn't been attacking the McCanns, she'd been discussing, endlessly analysing the case (another 'whodunnit' with untied threads). Brunt 'exposed' Brenda Leyland by doorstepping her in her small village situation. She found herself all over Sky news, portrayed as this vicious troll, attacking the righteous couple. Brenda Leyland booked herself into a hotel & suicided. Questions were asked about press ethics .. There was nothing in her 'tweets'.

Express newspaper on the outset was investigating the mccanns as being suspects, way before it was considered not to be correct .. many untied threads. What about 'the window' (another window) .. Kate Mccann says that the entry of the supposed kidnapper was through the window. The window was untouched. Latest theory is that the kid wandered out onto the road. Kate Mccann did report that she had been asked where she was the previous night .. resident over their apartment had reported that she'd heard the sound of Madeleine crying for hours. There was a babysitting service available, within the resort complex, but they had chosen not to use it.

the window in this one .. defence case was that the brick was thrown over the gap, from the grassy knoll.. the smoking gun. the big one ... flag appears out of the gun .. FAKE. ... the brick carried up from a rockery outside (sollecito, the staging). thrown from the INSIDE. then .. mixed blood on the bathroom tap, the neck scratch on knox.

her advocate is now president.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:51 am   Post subject: Re: THE TRIALS OF RAFFAELE SOLLECITO   

Ergon wrote:
the Sollecitos do have more money than sense, and Raffaele had his bank account enriched by the $975,000 advance from Simon and Schuster as well.

$975,000 for that crap? The Knox book didn't sell because nobody believes her. Point was made again (Meredith Kerchers father) -"wouldn't she want to forget, move on" .. No, she's on Netflix .. That also, it's boring. You want INFORMATION. You want to know what happened, not pages and pages of invention (when it's not in category 'fiction'). All you can do is analyse the person .. nobody wants to go through hundreds of pages of psycho-invention to understand the person. Not worthwhile. Haven't seen the Netflix docu & don't want to. Ugly .. that reporter fellow, Nick Pisa, who released a "she has been released", together with "she has been found guilty", "reporting from perugia". All propaganda is boring, ugly, flawed.
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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Heard a rumor that the makers of 'making a murderer' (on Netflix, Steven Avery & Co. police framing), are working on a Knox documentary. Wouldn't expect anything out of the US to be pro-Knox-guilt.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:15 am   Post subject: Re: fit as a fiddle   

ttrroonniicc wrote:


was thinking that the knife impression on the pillow .. somealibi matched to the "brian tighe", expensive 'designer' knife sollecito carried. According to photo ^, it's the dimension of the kitchen knife.

Impression was the kitchen knife. Sollecito kept hold of his knife (could have been the one he carried into the 'questura' (police station) .. he carried it out of the house as he injured guede with it (re: german police photos of defensive wounds on guedes fingers).

I think the kitchen knife was from the cottage .. it's too cheap for sollecito, within his serviced apartment .. but knox did carry it back to his apartment. Guede took the phones, she took the knife. He used bleach to clean it .. he then broke the waste pipe as in his stoned paranoia, he was worried about blood traces down into the outflow. Story of the mop/flooding/wastepipe partially true. Their stories are fragments of each others experience (which wasn't much). That 'flooding' was in the morning; they had argued, then she was wandering around perugia in the morning, alone.

wrapping of text within pages doesn't appear to work (re: 'PHP')


The prosecutor at the Nencini court said the bed print matched the dimensions of the kitchen knife, Massei IIRC said it might be similar, and as to the Brian Tighe knife, both Knox and Sollecito's DNA were found on it, make of it what you will.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:16 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

On April 26, Knox spoke at a luncheon of the Palm Beach County Bar Association. The famous liar looked a bit pale and teared up several times during her talk, according to a recent newspaper article:

Knox determined to understand forces that put her in Italian prison
By Tony Doris

Knox, now a 29-year-old journalist, said at a luncheon of the Palm Beach County Bar Association Wednesday that her 2015 acquittal in the murder of roommate Meredith Kercher left her not so much angry as determined to understand and communicate about the forces that kept her behind bars, 5,600 miles from home.

“I feel less alone when I’m communicating what I understand,” she said. “What made the perfect storm that brought just the right people together, to make what happened to me happen? What was going on in my prosecutor’s mind, in the media’s mind, in my own mind? What is it that makes people make mistakes or do the right thing?”

The hour-long talk, which at times brought her to tears as she recalled her and her family’s ordeal, drew a standing ovation from the 300 lawyers.

Knox said these days she writes, not just about what happened to her but exonerated former prisoners around the country, many of whom spent more than a decade behind bars. There’s “a huge community of them,” she said, noting that she attends an annual convention where they “can all breathe easily together.”


PALM BEACH POST

How touching.

Reactions from a couple of lawyers present at the luncheon:

Quote:
@amamaknox watched you speak at PB Bar today. Couldn't be more impressed with or moved by you. Thanks for sharing your story with us.

Quote:
@amamaknox Thank you for sharing your time today. Your story has impacted me deeply. After law school, I will work to give a voice to others
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Is Sollecito now working as a "journalist", too?

NOBILE: Face to face with a monster (VIDEO, 6 min 35 sec)

We sent Raffaele Sollecito disguised as a journalist around Milan, to see what people think of him

VIDEO MEDIASET
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Is Sollecito now working as a "journalist", too?

NOBILE: Face to face with a monster (VIDEO, 6 min 35 sec)

We sent Raffaele Sollecito disguised as a journalist around Milan, to see what people think of him

VIDEO MEDIASET

Worse: neither he nor the reporters following him find something creepy about him showing Meredith's picture on his cell phone to people. The text reads "Non so fino il Sollecito". (I do not know Sollecito).


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Offline ttrroonniicc


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:30 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

53 hours of interrogation

http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/amanda-knox-determined-to-understand-forces-that-put-her-in-italian-prison/
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:40 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Peter Quennell got back to me. Was on the road and not aware TJMK was down. Has put in call to support, site should be back up soon, hopefully. Will update when I get more information.
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 12:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

OT

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https://stopglyphosate.org/

WeMoveEU wrote:
Why is this important?
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Glyphosate is a common pesticide, used on everything from food to gardens. The World Health Organisation has labelled it as “probably carcinogenic”. It is also very harmful to plant and animal life. In short, it’s a pretty damaging pesticide.

In Summer 2016, after a long campaign by hundreds of thousands of Europeans, the European Commission was unable to relicense the use of Glyphosate for 15 years, but instead had to settle for a short 18 month renewal. This was a huge success achieved in the face of intense lobbying by the chemicals industry. But big producers of weed killers like Monsanto are still lobbying to protect their profits. Their deep pockets have been paying for “studies” and “expert” opinions to show that their product is safe.

It seems to be common-sense that cancer-inducing poison should not be sprayed on our farms, our countryside and our neighbourhoods. We now have the chance to make our voices heard through a European Citizens Initiative -- a legal route that means the European Commission has to listen to us if we collect one milllion signatures this year.

We know what a constant use of Glyphosate will mean for us, the people of Europe: sick people, dead animals, burnt grass, brown leaves, and a loss of biodiversity. Last year, we were able to block Monsanto’s plans in ways they did not expect. But it’s not over, and in 2017 they will be fighting hard to extend the currently short term approval of glyphosate to 15 years. Which is why we will be fighting even harder to stop them.

Take action now: sign our Citizens Initiative against Monsanto’s cancer-inducing poison.

References
[1] This chemical is called Glyphosate and is one of the most widely used active substances in pesticides worldwide.

[2] World Health Organisation (WHO) classifies Glyphosate as ‘potentially causing cancer’: http://sustainablepulse.com/2015/07/30/ ... InksFwTDL5

[3] Glyphosate found in human urine across Europe: https://www.foeeurope.org/weed-killer-g ... ope-130613
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 6:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Circulated, thanks, Rumpole.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 6:06 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

TJMK is back up again. Have heard from Peter and it was a simple change of registrars which he wasn't able to respond to since he was away. No, it was never "hacked".
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Offline Hennesy


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Did anybody read Amanda's WSH article on her sister? How narcissistic and cruel...

I will be amazed all my life about how she can have supporters when all the evidence in the case pointed at her involvement, not to mention her arrogant and entitled attitude during the many interviews and articles she becomes public with.

A guilty cover-up of what happened that night is the minimum you can give her even if you are the most skeptical juror.

The prison intercepts between the perps and their families are also very telling. Amanda admits to her mother that she came up with the scream and not the police, that she's worried about the knife while Sollecito's father keeps talking about how Amanda probably killed Meredith during the hours that are erased from Raf's memory. We know Raf's father talks about the case to Bongiorno so we know Bongiorno thinks that at least Amanda is guilty, probably Raf too. Why on earth does she still go on TV to protect Raf after the latest compensation ruling? To save face? For money? Her own reputation? Could she think Amanda is guilty while poor Raf only had a memory black-out on November 1st? I dont think so. Then why does Bongiorno push her luck too hard by appealing the compensation ruling?


I like the Iene video that Guermantes posted, almost everybody interviewed tells Raf in the face that he is guilty and that he should tell the truth! That was a moment of satisfaction!
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:00 pm   Post subject: BATTLE OF THE DUELING NARCISSI   

Amana Knox: Champion
Quote:
“It’ll be an historic moment when Hillary wins. But she doesn’t just have to defeat a man to become the first female President. She has to defeat the Worst Man, the most misogynistic man imaginable.”

West Seattle Herald: Amanda Stands With Trump

New York Times: Trump upset with ingratitude of Ms. Knox

Los Angeles Times: What do I owe Donald Trump?

She slagged him in her Netflix documentary too, LOL.


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Offline herbstwind


Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:54 pm

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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 1:33 pm   Post subject: Re: fit as a fiddle   

ttrroonniicc wrote:


was thinking that the knife impression on the pillow .. somealibi matched to the "brian tighe", expensive 'designer' knife sollecito carried. According to photo ^, it's the dimension of the kitchen knife.

Impression was the kitchen knife. Sollecito kept hold of his knife (could have been the one he carried into the 'questura' (police station) .. he carried it out of the house as he injured guede with it (re: german police photos of defensive wounds on guedes fingers).

I think the kitchen knife was from the cottage .. it's too cheap for sollecito, within his serviced apartment .. but knox did carry it back to his apartment. Guede took the phones, she took the knife. He used bleach to clean it .. he then broke the waste pipe as in his stoned paranoia, he was worried about blood traces down into the outflow. Story of the mop/flooding/wastepipe partially true. Their stories are fragments of each others experience (which wasn't much). That 'flooding' was in the morning; they had argued, then she was wandering around perugia in the morning, alone.

wrapping of text within pages doesn't appear to work (re: 'PHP')


The kitchen knife was part of the inventory of Sollecito's rental apartment. Therfore they had to bring it back to Sollecito's!
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 4:29 am   Post subject: KNOX OP ED LOS ANGELES TIMES   

Readers are welcome to view the comments on Ms. Knox's The Los Angeles Times op ed above. My latest: "That is an interesting perspective on a site (the Wiki) set up to present the complete official case files to the media and general public interested in researching this unique case. They are of course welcome to visit it and see if that description, of it being a "disinformation site" is true. To date, it has received 1.3 million unique visitors, so perhaps they appreciate the facts, as opposed to it being "anti-Knox"?"

And, press release added to the Wiki:


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Offline Rumpole


Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:46 pm

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Location: Old Bailey

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 3:06 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hennesy wrote:
Did anybody read Amanda's WSH article on her sister? How narcissistic and cruel...

I will be amazed all my life about how she can have supporters when all the evidence in the case pointed at her involvement, not to mention her arrogant and entitled attitude during the many interviews and articles she becomes public with.

A guilty cover-up of what happened that night is the minimum you can give her even if you are the most skeptical juror.

The prison intercepts between the perps and their families are also very telling. Amanda admits to her mother that she came up with the scream and not the police, that she's worried about the knife while Sollecito's father keeps talking about how Amanda probably killed Meredith during the hours that are erased from Raf's memory. We know Raf's father talks about the case to Bongiorno so we know Bongiorno thinks that at least Amanda is guilty, probably Raf too. Why on earth does she still go on TV to protect Raf after the latest compensation ruling? To save face? For money? Her own reputation? Could she think Amanda is guilty while poor Raf only had a memory black-out on November 1st? I dont think so. Then why does Bongiorno push her luck too hard by appealing the compensation ruling?


I like the Iene video that Guermantes posted, almost everybody interviewed tells Raf in the face that he is guilty and that he should tell the truth! That was a moment of satisfaction!


Hi, Hennessy,

Can you link or point me to the intercept where she admits that? There are so many of them ....

I've often pondered about the scream and who brought it up because it does sound plausible to me that it could have been the police that asked her pointed questions of the type she's so often claimed - "Well, how could you not hear her being attacked? Didn't she scream?"
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Offline Hennesy


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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 8:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

It was in the first prison conversation between Amanda and her mother. First ever prison intercept of Amanda. I just looked on TMMK and it is on page 29 of the file:

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/d ... family.pdf

She says she imagined that she could hear Meredith screaming. Nowhere in this conversation she mentions that police suggested anything. Only that she imagined the things she said because police was threatening her with 30 years of jail if she had not told the truth.

If only the police had recorded that interrogation, the case would have been closed that day and Amanda would never have won any appeal!
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Offline Rumpole


Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:46 pm

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Location: Old Bailey

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 9:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Yes, of course, thanks Hennessy!

I located the audio for this intercept, although it was somewhat difficult. One page (in the wiki) claims that there are no audios, just some samples, but then when you search some more, you end up finding some of the prison intercepts. I've actually downloaded and listened this exact same audio about a year ago (it was still on my computer). At least downloading is a lot quicker now that our optical fibre cables are in more efficient use after our condominium decided to use a higher speed.

Here you can hear also AK describe how she doesn't recall making the 3rd phone call to Edda -does she sound like she's lying? What do you native speakers say? This "forgotten" phone call is one of the major things for me that point to her guilt. You can also hear her saying "Fuck you guys! Fuck you" when talking about the Italian police (29 minutes 26 seconds). At which points Edda says that the lawyers told her not to talk about these things. AK says she doesn't want to talk about it and then goes on to talk some more about it.

It's around 30 minutes into the audio that they talk about the scream etc., it's the audio from 10th of November, 2007. (Soon 10 years ago already!)

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/F ... son_videos
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Offline Rumpole


Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:46 pm

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 9:47 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Circulated, thanks, Rumpole.

Thanks, Ergon! I really hope we could one day live in a more democratic society without corporate capitalism always going before human beings ... Our government sucks, EU sucks, US regime sucks etc. Wasn't happy that Macron won, but Le Pen would have been horrible too. And on top of everything it's been snowing here in May, even today! On May day morning there was more snow on the ground than on Christmas Eve. Spring is very late this year up here.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:34 am   Post subject: GROUND REPORT SITE CLOSED   

http://www.groundreport.com was closed April 30, 2017.
Quote:
Volunteers from Injustice Anywhere came on board in July 2015 to help with restructuring. The site relaunched with a new look on September 22, 2015.

GroundReport has been sold to a private investor as of May 8, 2017.

I guess Bruce Fischer's business plan didn't work then. Maybe once they remove the directors of a not-for-profit 501(c)(3) corporation who carried on personal vendettas through their website they can figure out a viable news platform?


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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

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Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:22 pm   Post subject: Re: GROUND REPORT SITE CLOSED   

Ergon wrote:
http://www.groundreport.com was closed April 30, 2017.
Quote:
Volunteers from Injustice Anywhere came on board in July 2015 to help with restructuring. The site relaunched with a new look on September 22, 2015.

GroundReport has been sold to a private investor as of May 8, 2017.


I guess Bruce Fischer's business plan didn't work then. Maybe once they remove the directors of a not-for-profit 501(c)(3) corporation who carried on personal vendettas through their website they can figure out a viable news platform?


Good catch Ergon

Do you know when this change takes effect? There's an article showing dated May 2016 by Nigel Scott about Knox, and ECHR.

http://www.groundreport.com/european-co ... er-appeal/
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 844

Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:21 pm   Post subject: Re: THE PSYCHOLOGY OF A TROLL   

ttrroonniicc wrote:
Ergon wrote:
A recent Washington Post article How researchers tried to understand one of Twitter’s oldest trolling groups caught my eye hbc)
Abby Olheiser
March 2
Quote:
Three-year-old Madeline McCann disappeared from a resort apartment in Portugal in 2007 while on a family vacation. Her British parents were dining nearby. The McCann disappearance, which has never been resolved, became a major British tabloid story. The daily media frenzy has since faded, but a decade later, a tight-knit group of Twitter trolls who are convinced that they have proven the McCann parents’ guilt in their daughter’s disappearance still discuss the case online every single day.

Gerald mccann received news about a judgement from portugal that went against them .. He railed about "twitter trolls". Sky news decided to "expose" one. Reporter Martin Brunt doorstepped 'Brenda Leyland', who they'd tracked down , through twitter- accused her of attacking the McCanns. All tweets were retrieved - she hadn't been attacking the McCanns, she'd been discussing, endlessly analysing the case (another 'whodunnit' with untied threads). Brunt 'exposed' Brenda Leyland by doorstepping her in her small village situation. She found herself all over Sky news, portrayed as this vicious troll, attacking the righteous couple. Brenda Leyland booked herself into a hotel & suicided. Questions were asked about press ethics .. There was nothing in her 'tweets'.

Express newspaper on the outset was investigating the mccanns as being suspects, way before it was considered not to be correct .. many untied threads. What about 'the window' (another window) .. Kate Mccann says that the entry of the supposed kidnapper was through the window. The window was untouched. Latest theory is that the kid wandered out onto the road. Kate Mccann did report that she had been asked where she was the previous night .. resident over their apartment had reported that she'd heard the sound of Madeleine crying for hours. There was a babysitting service available, within the resort complex, but they had chosen not to use it....


Ergon and ttrroonniicc

The Mccann PR seems to have been hard at work in the US. Maybe hunting for $$$$?

I have held no strong views, not really having followed the case, but CNN aired a report a few weeks ago that was so over the top on sanctifying the Mccanns it was a little hard to buy.

Now I see online not only the book by the lead Portuguese investigator Amaral but also lists of open questions hundreds long. Work of those "trolls" does rather make the kidnapping look like a hoax.

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrig ... ccann.html
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:02 am   Post subject: Re: GROUND REPORT SITE CLOSED   

Fast Pete wrote:
Ergon wrote:
http://www.groundreport.com was closed April 30, 2017.
Quote:
Volunteers from Injustice Anywhere came on board in July 2015 to help with restructuring. The site relaunched with a new look on September 22, 2015.

GroundReport has been sold to a private investor as of May 8, 2017.


I guess Bruce Fischer's business plan didn't work then. Maybe once they remove the directors of a not-for-profit 501(c)(3) corporation who carried on personal vendettas through their website they can figure out a viable news platform?


Good catch Ergon

Do you know when this change takes effect? There's an article showing dated May 2016 by Nigel Scott about Knox, and ECHR.

http://www.groundreport.com/european-co ... er-appeal/


The site was down for a few days till they got a buyer, Pete. The front page seems so Knox centric, who knows, maybe she invested? hbc)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:11 am   Post subject: Re: THE PSYCHOLOGY OF A TROLL   

Fast Pete wrote:
ttrroonniicc wrote:
Ergon wrote:
A recent Washington Post article How researchers tried to understand one of Twitter’s oldest trolling groups caught my eye hbc)
Abby Olheiser
March 2
Quote:
Three-year-old Madeline McCann disappeared from a resort apartment in Portugal in 2007 while on a family vacation. Her British parents were dining nearby. The McCann disappearance, which has never been resolved, became a major British tabloid story. The daily media frenzy has since faded, but a decade later, a tight-knit group of Twitter trolls who are convinced that they have proven the McCann parents’ guilt in their daughter’s disappearance still discuss the case online every single day.

Gerald mccann received news about a judgement from portugal that went against them .. He railed about "twitter trolls". Sky news decided to "expose" one. Reporter Martin Brunt doorstepped 'Brenda Leyland', who they'd tracked down , through twitter- accused her of attacking the McCanns. All tweets were retrieved - she hadn't been attacking the McCanns, she'd been discussing, endlessly analysing the case (another 'whodunnit' with untied threads). Brunt 'exposed' Brenda Leyland by doorstepping her in her small village situation. She found herself all over Sky news, portrayed as this vicious troll, attacking the righteous couple. Brenda Leyland booked herself into a hotel & suicided. Questions were asked about press ethics .. There was nothing in her 'tweets'.

Express newspaper on the outset was investigating the mccanns as being suspects, way before it was considered not to be correct .. many untied threads. What about 'the window' (another window) .. Kate Mccann says that the entry of the supposed kidnapper was through the window. The window was untouched. Latest theory is that the kid wandered out onto the road. Kate Mccann did report that she had been asked where she was the previous night .. resident over their apartment had reported that she'd heard the sound of Madeleine crying for hours. There was a babysitting service available, within the resort complex, but they had chosen not to use it....


Ergon and ttrroonniicc

The Mccann PR seems to have been hard at work in the US. Maybe hunting for $$$$?

I have held no strong views, not really having followed the case, but CNN aired a report a few weeks ago that was so over the top on sanctifying the Mccanns it was a little hard to buy.

Now I see online not only the book by the lead Portuguese investigator Amaral but also lists of open questions hundreds long. Work of those "trolls" does rather make the kidnapping look like a hoax.

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrig ... ccann.html

Hi, Pete:
Similarities between Madeleine McCann and Meredith Kercher cases:

1: Massive PR agency efforts set up by suspects and supported by media.

2: Disputed DNA and blood evidence.

3: Shaky alibis.

4: Claims the investigation was 'incompetent' and 'an abuse of power'.

5: False 'break ins'.

6: Passionate advocates on both sides.
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Offline jamie


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Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:42 pm

Posts: 130

PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:36 pm   Post subject: Re: THE PSYCHOLOGY OF A TROLL   

Ergon wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
ttrroonniicc wrote:
Ergon wrote:
A recent Washington Post article How researchers tried to understand one of Twitter’s oldest trolling groups caught my eye hbc)
Abby Olheiser
March 2
Quote:
Three-year-old Madeline McCann disappeared from a resort apartment in Portugal in 2007 while on a family vacation. Her British parents were dining nearby. The McCann disappearance, which has never been resolved, became a major British tabloid story. The daily media frenzy has since faded, but a decade later, a tight-knit group of Twitter trolls who are convinced that they have proven the McCann parents’ guilt in their daughter’s disappearance still discuss the case online every single day.

Gerald mccann received news about a judgement from portugal that went against them .. He railed about "twitter trolls". Sky news decided to "expose" one. Reporter Martin Brunt doorstepped 'Brenda Leyland', who they'd tracked down , through twitter- accused her of attacking the McCanns. All tweets were retrieved - she hadn't been attacking the McCanns, she'd been discussing, endlessly analysing the case (another 'whodunnit' with untied threads). Brunt 'exposed' Brenda Leyland by doorstepping her in her small village situation. She found herself all over Sky news, portrayed as this vicious troll, attacking the righteous couple. Brenda Leyland booked herself into a hotel & suicided. Questions were asked about press ethics .. There was nothing in her 'tweets'.

Express newspaper on the outset was investigating the mccanns as being suspects, way before it was considered not to be correct .. many untied threads. What about 'the window' (another window) .. Kate Mccann says that the entry of the supposed kidnapper was through the window. The window was untouched. Latest theory is that the kid wandered out onto the road. Kate Mccann did report that she had been asked where she was the previous night .. resident over their apartment had reported that she'd heard the sound of Madeleine crying for hours. There was a babysitting service available, within the resort complex, but they had chosen not to use it....


Ergon and ttrroonniicc

The Mccann PR seems to have been hard at work in the US. Maybe hunting for $$$$?

I have held no strong views, not really having followed the case, but CNN aired a report a few weeks ago that was so over the top on sanctifying the Mccanns it was a little hard to buy.

Now I see online not only the book by the lead Portuguese investigator Amaral but also lists of open questions hundreds long. Work of those "trolls" does rather make the kidnapping look like a hoax.

http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrig ... ccann.html

Hi, Pete:
Similarities between Madeleine McCann and Meredith Kercher cases:

1: Massive PR agency efforts set up by suspects and supported by media.

2: Disputed DNA and blood evidence.

3: Shaky alibis.

4: Claims the investigation was 'incompetent' and 'an abuse of power'.

5: False 'break ins'.

6: Passionate advocates on both sides.



7. The assumption 'foreign police' are incompetent.
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Offline Jackie


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:38 am

Posts: 889

PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:16 pm   Post subject: The Keepers (NETFLIX)   

As we await the outcome of the application to the ECtHR, the defamation action, the compensation claim, etc., I think my fellow Victims' Rights Advocates here on PMF will truly appreciate, and perhaps even be inspired by, the new NETFLIX true crime documentary series, "The Keepers".

It covers the tragic 1969 murder of a young nun (Sister Catherine Cesnick) and it is as spellbinding as it is shocking.
Image
Here's a recent review in the NY Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/18/arts ... .html?_r=0

The director (Ryan White) does a BRILLIANT job of recounting the events from the perspective of the VICTIMS and their SUPPORTERS and I sincerely hope that, one fine day, an equally talented team has the courage to do the same for the Kerchers.

The Keepers proves that you don't need interviews with the suspects themselves (or their PR people) to frame events properly and shed some light.

It also proves that dogged, DECADES-long determination on the part of ordinary people who SUPPORT VICTIMS of crime can, in fact, do a great deal to help uncover the truth even where police, prosecutors, courts and the mainstream media have failed to do so.

(I was hoping the NETFLIX doc on 'Knoxy' would be as effective in terms of shedding some light but was disappointed to find it was not only relatively short/ superficial but created by biased 'fanboys' who, apparently, lacked the integrity to include what the Supreme Court actually wrote about Knox (i.e., that she WAS THERE) and the learned opinions of Dr. Balding and Professor Dershowitz.)
Hidden Content: show
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________________________
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Offline Rumpole


Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:46 pm

Posts: 240

Location: Old Bailey

PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:09 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

More Knox writings, if anyone's interested:

Amanda Knox: How Prisons Use Cult Tactics to Brainwash Inmates Into Religion

And an article discussing and disputing some of her claims:

Prison Fellowship Speaks Out After Amanda Knox Claims Brainwashing Cult Tactics Used on Inmates
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Offline jamie


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Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:42 pm

Posts: 130

PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sollecito's compensation appeal is set to be heard at the Supreme Court 28 June 2017.

Quote:
PERUGIA - E 'scheduled for June 28 a hearing in the Supreme Court Raffaele Sollecito, who wants to ask for compensation from the Italian state for his wrongful imprisonment. Sollecito was jailed in fact for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher. The request had already been repudiated by Tuscan judges, who had talked about the contradictory statements of the young man from Puglia.


http://www.umbriadomani.it/politica-umb ... th-148809/
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:12 am   Post subject: MIGNINI ABSOLVED OF CHARGES RELATED TO THE MONSTER OF FLOREN   

Umbria24
March 20, 2017
Quote:
Giuliano Mignini, the Prosecutor in the investigation into the murder of British student Meredith Kercher, who was accused of having carried out retaliatory investigations against officials of the State police and journalists, was acquitted by the disciplinary Section of the High Council of the judiciary with the phrase "did not exist". The Prosecutor of Perugia, now under the Attorney General's Office, was the owner of the inquiry into the death of Francesco Narducci gastroenterologist linked to investigations of the monster of Florence, and any other proceedings on pipelines aimed at obstructing his investigation...

The wiki has received a copy of the Cassazione motivation report dated May 08, 2017 exonerating Mignini. Poor Douglas Preston :)


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Offline LUFC1972


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Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:36 pm

Posts: 80

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:52 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi All. Meredith's lawyer has written a book on the case: Francesco Paolo Maresca 'Meredith Process: perfect justice?' (Published by ETS). Seems to be only in Italian currently. Source:

http://velvetnews.it/2017/06/11/omicidi ... -perfetta/

Apologies if mentioned elsewhere on here.

Regards.
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Offline Sallyoo


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:20 pm

Posts: 95

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

An entertaining aside, this, from La Repubblica today, reporting on massive demand for legal marijuana online.

Sigh, and the wunderkind's 'drone identified deckchairs' hasn't got off the beach.

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2017/0 ... um=twitter
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Offline DanielSC


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Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:53 pm

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:28 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi all. Hope you are doing well! Did anyone see Amanda's Instragram account? Just strange.

Also, haven't heard from Michael. Hoping he is ok and good health. He hasn't responded to his PMs either....
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Knox has an unquenchable thirst for the limelight, seeking more notoriety. Why does the world need to know more about Amanda Knox? Her legal case is over, why all the attention-seeking?

June 22, 2017
Amanda Knox makes her Instagram account public to reveal love of boyfriend, cats and costumes

NEWS.COM.AU

Looks like Nick Squires (not to be confused with Nick Pisa ;)) of The Telegraph was the source of this "news":

THE TELEGRAPH

So, Knox didn't dare to visit Italy on her "European tour"? There's a mistake in the first article - AK and her boyfriend took a picture in front of the Pantheon in Paris, not in Rome.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

By they way, Knox has received an "Innocence Award".

This was tweeted on June 1:

The Florida Bar@theflabar Jun 1

Replying to @theflabar @FLA_Innocence @innocence

Sidenote: At the event, famed exoneree and writer Amanda Knox was the keynote speaker AND accepted the 2017 Frank Lee Smith Innocence Award! pic.twitter.com/WWCBKz9pfZ
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:37 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

More whining and complaining from Sollecito in his latest interview (published yesterday, June 22):

Raffaele Sollecito, interviewed by Il Popolano

Raffaele, do you feel a free man, beyond your acquittal, I mean?
'No, I do not feel at all free.'

Why do you say that?
'Because I am full of debts, due to all the court costs I and my family have had to face in recent years.'

Is it true that you have claimed damages?
'Yes, because I have been harmed economically, and that money would serve to return at least part of the expenses I have incurred, and not a few. I was a victim of a miscarriage of justice (judicial error), but the Italian justice system wouldn't even admit that they were wrong.'

Raffaele, how are you faring (getting by)? You are a software engineer, right?
'Yes, exactly. I’m consulting regarding new technologies and the web. I'm working on some applications, so I’m trying to do something. I had to register for VAT for projects that I am following, because it is difficult to get into work at my age. I am thinking of writing a letter to the Ministry of Labor, because I was imprisoned for many years, thereby losing the chance to work and get experience, and I would like at least the state to listen and understand my situation.

Do you think people will ever consider you as a regular guy, as before that November 1, 2007?
'Now people know me for that fact (i.e. the murder – ed). I would, at least, try to drop the veil of mistrust that people have towards me, especially when they meet me on the street. This mistrust was also fueled by justice, which as I mentioned before, did not admit that it was wrong about my person.'

Raffaele, have you ever thought about leaving Italy and starting over again somewhere else?
'If there were any real possibility of working abroad, why not? But it should be a real possibility, because I cannot afford to make ping-pong flights. Right now, however, I do not rule out anything.'


IL POPOLANO
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi everybody,

here is Sollecito's old (April 16th) interview re: his lawsuit against the magistrates:

Raffaele Sollecito: "I've sued my judges"

[...] Now, however, another chapter opens: Raffaele Sollecito asks for damages from the state. The first attempt to receive compensation for unjust detention was dismissed, but lawyers Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori announced an appeal to the Supreme Court. Meanwhile, the other [chapter] has just opened: the computer engineer, assisted by lawyers Antonio and Valerio Ciccariello, has decided to sue some magistrates, asking for three million euros under the law on civil liability of judges involving cases of "of gross negligence or grave error".

Why did you decide to sue the judges? What, in your opinion, are their serious sins?

Problems include all the interpretative deficiencies (shortcomings) that there were in all these years. For example, the motive has changed from one judgment to another, the DNA evidence has been misrepresented several times, the evidence has been interpreted differently from one judge to another, or even several magistrates have - let’s say - disregarded the rules to prove the unprovable. In addition, these mistakes are in a certain way stigmatized and summarized by the Court of Cassation that acquitted me.

The person who perhaps most marked your destiny was the Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini.

He led the investigation and accused me, but some judges had declared me guilty unjustly and they had the last word. It is true, however, that Mignini was sanctioned by the CSM for banning me from conferring with my lawyer at an early stage, and I consider it a serious injury to my defense rights.

The Court of Appeal of Florence dismissed the claim for compensation for unjust imprisonment because of your ‘willful misconduct or gross negligence’. Do you perceive a prejudice by the judiciary against you or are you confident about the outcome of the claims and of the case against the magistrates?

The judiciary is made up of so many different heads. Indeed, the ruling of the Court of Appeal of Florence has done nothing but condemn me one more time, because they have completely distorted and disregarded all the evidence that has emerged during these years, not taking into account all that transpired during the hearings. They reinterpreted the whole case, even placing me on the crime scene. It’s like as if they had told me "Sollecito, you got lucky overall, but now shut up." They behaved indecently.

Is there a kind of obstinacy (fury, rage) against you?

Maybe I seem unpleasant to them, maybe they don't like me because I emphasize their mistakes; on the other hand, they have completely disrupted and destroyed my existence, so I do not understand why I should be magnanimous towards them or stay silent in the corner and say "no, please don't hurt me anymore". They are guilty of having persecuted [two] innocent people for years. So, at least, I think I can ask for explanations from the state of this whole story. And I would like a clear answer.

Now, how is your life in Parma?

I moved, about a month ago, to a new job opportunity. I was received very well: many people welcomed me and treated me with respect. The most important thing is work and I hope to be able to cope with the huge debts that I'm left with thanks to this justice.


IL DUBBIO
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:57 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

From the ANSA news agency:

June 27, 2017

Sollecito appeals "no compensation" judgment
He asks the Supreme Court to annul Florence's decision

On 28 June the Supreme Court will examine the appeal lodged by Raffaele Sollecito's defense against the decision of the Florence Court of Appeal to dismiss the claim for compensation (500 thousand euros) for unjust imprisonment for almost four years in prison for the murder of Meredith Kercher, a crime for which he was definitively acquitted. The decision is expected on the same day.

Sollecito's defense, lawyers Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori, have already submitted to the judges their memos with which they seek the annulment of the decision of the Florentine judges. The hearing will take place in a boardroom (camera di consiglio) without the intervention of the parties.

The lawyers have argued that the reasoning for the rejection of the claim for compensation "seems to be a photocopy of the appeal "bis" in Florence". "Sollecito - explained the lawyer Bongiorno - ended up in jail for a shoe print of Guede's, wrongfully attributed to him, a fact for which he has no responsibility."


ANSA
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Offline corpusvile


Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:38 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
From the ANSA news agency:

June 27, 2017

Sollecito appeals "no compensation" judgment
He asks the Supreme Court to annul Florence's decision

On 28 June the Supreme Court will examine the appeal lodged by Raffaele Sollecito's defense against the decision of the Florence Court of Appeal to dismiss the claim for compensation (500 thousand euros) for unjust imprisonment for almost four years in prison for the murder of Meredith Kercher, a crime for which he was definitively acquitted. The decision is expected on the same day.

Sollecito's defense, lawyers Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori, have already submitted to the judges their memos with which they seek the annulment of the decision of the Florentine judges. The hearing will take place in a boardroom (camera di consiglio) without the intervention of the parties.

The lawyers argued that the reasoning for the rejection of the claim for compensation "seems to be a photocopy of the appeal "bis" in Florence". "Sollecito - explained the lawyer Bongiorno - ended up in jail for a shoe print of Guede's wrongfully attributed to him, a fact for which he has no responsibility."


ANSA


Cassation have upheld the Florence appeal Guermantes Thanks to Krissy for the info dance-) mul-)
http://www.corrierequotidiano.it/1.66719/cronaca/3727/cassazione-nessun-risarcimento-raffaele-sollecito
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Offline Sallyoo


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:20 pm

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Very good news that the Cassation Court have thrown out Sollecito's compensation appeal! The press are suggesting the motivation report will be published in about a month - it might run to two pages if it's lucky.

La repubblica have a few words from the bleater himself - he thinks it's unexplainable, don't these judges understand he really needs this cash because having spent four years in prison means he can't find a job. (Him and a few million other young Italians, mate.)

Bongiorno is saying they'll never give up, and they'll take the case to 'Europe'.

Any news on his book defamation case? I thought that was approaching a settlement or something, but I've heard nothing.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sallyoo wrote:
Very good news that the Cassation Court have thrown out Sollecito's compensation appeal! The press are suggesting the motivation report will be published in about a month - it might run to two pages if it's lucky.

La repubblica have a few words from the bleater himself - he thinks it's unexplainable, don't these judges understand he really needs this cash because having spent four years in prison means he can't find a job. (Him and a few million other young Italians, mate.)

Bongiorno is saying they'll never give up, and they'll take the case to 'Europe'.

Any news on his book defamation case? I thought that was approaching a settlement or something, but I've heard nothing.


RS & Bongiorno will appeal to Strasbourg! That should amuse our friend Ergon. The average award of ECHR is less than $5000 - to be paid by Italian tax payers - and anyway there is zero case for them to side with him.

http://www.tgcom24.mediaset.it/cronaca/ ... 702a.shtml

http://uk.blastingnews.com/world/2017/0 ... 10185.html

Re the book. He's a deer in the headlights. He has no cash! And he is desperately trying to stop his defamations and treasons becoming known in Italy. I had them all translated into Italian, might you help getting them to key reporters? Or if I can be there soon, will try to do that personally.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:42 pm   Post subject: Bongiorno's Supreme Court FAIL   

Interesting ... 'no American, no win'?

Score one for those who suspect that the annulment that set S & K free had less to do with Bongiorno's advocacy than with the fearsome sound of the State Deptartment rattling its HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE American Saber:

Image

(What would happen to the profits of the Italian people behind Ferrari, Panerai, Persol, etc. if they suddenly lost access to all of those rich American customers in California?!)

It seems President Drumpf, Rex Tillerson (aka "Wayne Tracker" lol) and Jared 'The Boy Wonder' Kushner just don't care about Solly the Blade the way that Senator Maria "My lil' bro was framed by police for murder, too!!!" Cantwell cared about Knoxy ... if only Solly could have married one of those American girls he was chasing ;-)

But seriously, it WILL be interesting to learn what we can about the Supreme Court's reasoning in this matter ... the 5 old men who begin and end each day with the ISF's Knox thread like to keep bragging that they've been vindicated by the Italian courts but, if the translations are correct, it seems that nothing could be further from the truth:

NOT ONE of them has argued that the police were "too nice" to Knox during the interrogation that led to her incriminating statements (per the Florence court in the police defamation action);

NOT ONE of them has argued that Knox was "indisputably" present during the murder (per a Florence appellate court's reading of the Supreme Court's reasoning in the annulment); &

NOT ONE of them has argued that Solly gave '5 false alibis' to police (per the Florence appellate court that denied S's compensation claim and which, apparently, has now been affirmed by the Supreme Court).


___________________
PS I see "Machiavelli" has dropped by the ISF today and his posts really do make for some interesting reading, but I have to ask Mach a question:

Image

If you saw someone like this sitting on a park bench all day, every day, not working, and carrying on (and on and on) to passersby about Jesus, the virtues of cheap rum and his desire to see economic and/or physical harm come to all of Knox's so-called "haters", would you really even bother to make eye contact???

(I suppose I might toss him a few shekels so he could buy another rum IF the poor fella' was delusional enough to start ranting about being a "36 year old hockey player" or fantasizing that the Italian courts had written something other than what has been recorded, but I like to think I'd have the sense to avoid starting a serious discussion about genetics or jurisprudence with someone so ... of that ilk ;-)

It's a shame that the more intelligent online defenders of S & K (like e44 or the Halk) get buried under the blizzard of garbage flowing from the "basket of deplorables" who found GSM's lies so appealing. An uncensored but fairly moderated debate between the right people would be fascinating to behold. I've got a lot of questions!


__________________________________
ETA
The Groupies are, understandably, pretty silent about the latest Supreme Court decision and its troubling implications, but they've viewed my latest photos here on PMF so many times that they burned up my 3rd party hosting limit! photobucket wanted to get paid! (they're making this particular post tough! lol sorry for all of the edits!)


_____________________________
PPS Why do the Groupies on ISF keep calling Italian courts "unfit for purpose" while, at one and the same time, endlessly citing the Italian court ruling re "sufficiency" as if it can be trusted????????????????????????????????

Are they arguing that a completely dysfunctional system arrived at the "correct" result merely by way of 'accident'?!

If you don't trust the court itself, you can't then reasonably trust ANY of its decisions.

Indeed, how can you even trust your own take given that it, too, is based on findings flowing from the very proceedings that you do not trust?!

FWIW, the Italian court's conception and application of the test for "sufficiency" appears to bear little or no resemblance to the common law version of that test (wherein the court considers ALL of the evidence, and the INFERENCES therefrom, in a light MOST FAVORABLE TO THE PROSECUTION before asking whether, TAKEN AS A WHOLE, it is sufficient to displace the presumption of innocence in the mind of a RATIONAL*** trier - it's akin to asking whether the Patriots could score just 1 TD if the Falcons never took to the field, or (for our UK members) whether Manchester United could score just 1 goal if Liverpool never took to the pitch!).


*** recall that, per the SCOTUS, a doubt is NOT "reasonable" if it is based on "mere possibility, ...bare imagination, or ...fanciful conjecture"

(for examples of unreasonable doubts, see C&V's "anything is possible" testimony, and, well, TBH, essentially every argument offered by the Knox Groupies in the JREF/ISF thread - they simply cannot resist making arguments based on mere possibility, imagination and conjecture!)


Last edited by Jackie on Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:26 am, edited 15 times in total.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

corpusvile wrote:
Cassation have upheld the Florence appeal Guermantes Thanks to Krissy for the info
http://www.corrierequotidiano.it/1.66719/cronaca/3727/cassazione-nessun-risarcimento-raffaele-sollecito


Thanks, everyone! Great news, and by any measure this is no "small" victory. Sollecito's lawsuit against the magistrates will likely fail, too. He will be forced to pay the court costs and pay back his loans/debts. "Good luck" to him and Knox at the ECHR. ;)

Cassation: No Compensation for Raffaele Sollecito

No compensation for unjust imprisonment to Raffaele Sollecito. Thus has decided the Fourth Criminal Section of the Court of Cassation, rejecting the appeal with which the defenders of the young man asked to re-evaluate the compensation claim - equal to 516 thousand euros - already rejected by the Court of Appeal in Florence last February.

The Florence judges had dismissed the claim for compensation by highlighting the fact that Sollecito, in the early stages of the investigation, had been found to have engaged in "misleading" and "severely deceitful" conduct. It will take about a month to know the reasons behind today's decision of the Supreme Court.


CORRIERE QUOTIDIANO

The Supreme Court denies compensation to Sollecito. "Inexplicable, as a result of this story, I cannot find a job"

A verdict that Sollecito called "inexplicable" speaking with his defender, lawyer Giulia Bongiorno. "If you still can’t find a job," he stressed, "it's as much as has happened to me. I'm still suffering the consequences of past years as an innocent in prison and I do not understand why this is not acknowledged."

Giulia Bongiorno noted the contradictory nature of the decision of the Supreme Court, "which, when they acquitted Amanda and Raffaele, spoke of serious contradictions." So, for consistency, observed the lawyer, "we expected a minimum of compensation," she told AdnKronos. "This obviously does not erase Raffaele's acquittal and I can say that it does not end there - assured Bongiorno - I intend to move forward in Europe because it seems to me that recognition of unjust imprisonment would be the right ending (epilogue)."

The Florence judges had dismissed the claim for compensation by highlighting the fact that Sollecito, in the early stages of the investigation, had been found to have engaged in "misleading" and "severely deceitful" conduct. The lawyers, Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori, in the memo presented, argued that he did not lie at all and that even his first statements were in violation of defensive guaranties (his rights to defense.) The reasons behind today's decision of the Supreme Court will be known within a month.


LA REPUBBLICA

Bongiorno: '...that even his first statements (at the validation of arrest hearing, before Judge Matteini) "were in violation of defensive guaranties". Everybody knows that this is not true: Sollecito had met with his lawyer, Tiziano Tedeschi, before the hearing, and the latter advised him not to speak, but Sollecito was stupid enough not to heed his lawyer's advice. Now, it's far too late to lament it and accuse others of "violation of his right to counsel."
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:28 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
LA REPUBBLICA

Bongiorno: '...that even his first statements (at the validation of arrest hearing, before Judge Matteini) "were in violation of defensive guaranties". Everybody knows that this is not true: Sollecito had met with his lawyer, Tiziano Tedeschi, before the hearing, and the latter advised him not to speak, but Sollecito was stupid enough not to heed his lawyer's advice. Now, it's far too late to lament it and accuse others of "violation of his right to counsel."


Re this smart Repubblica comment in reponse to Bongiorno, Sollecito's statement to Matteini was the one where he said he never wanted to see Knox again. It was written down.

Quote:
“I never want to see Amanda again. Above all, it is her fault we are here.”


THAT was coerced?!!! Bongiorno has told SO MANY LIES. Since midway through the Nencini appeal she has become totally detached from the truth.


Last edited by Fast Pete on Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:46 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

An important question. Can anyone tell from the Italian reporting which chambers of the Supreme Court issued this?

Bongiorno wants "consistency" but wont ever get it if this is the bypassed First Chambers hitting back.

Things are made worse for her because in their ruling Marasca & Bruno spoke out of both sides of their mouth.

Not for the first time, I wonder if she has ever read their report.
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Offline Rumpole


Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:46 pm

Posts: 240

Location: Old Bailey

PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I'm not absolutely sure if this King5 Seatte video from 4 May 2017 has been posted here before or not but I at least couldn't find it:

Exonerees Amanda Knox, Sunny Jacobs and Peter Pringle's journeys to freedom

This segment is 12:30 long, and there's a link to the next one which is around 9 minutes long. I don't know if Pringle was unjustly imprisoned but Sunny Jacobs certainly does seem to have been.


After following the case for close to 10 years now, King5 still publishes fake news, false claims such as this one:
Quote:
An Italian court overturned her conviction after police arrested the man believed to be the actual killer.

------------------------
AK Instagram story in foreign media

In German:

Amanda Knox zeigt ihr neues Leben

(AK- the angel with the icy eyes- shows her new life)

In Spanish:

La nueva vida de Amanda Knox como inocente caperucita

(The new life of AK as the innocent Little Red Riding Hood)

In Portuguese:

Amanda Knox desbloqueia Instagram e é xingada: "assassina"

In Italian:

Amanda Knox diventa Cappuccetto Rosso: l’americana debutta su Instagram

La nuova vita di Amanda Knox: vestita da Cappuccetto Rosso tra baci e boschi

Amanda Knox su Instagram vestita da cappuccetto rosso

Amanda Knox rende pubblico il suo Instagram. E le sue immagini fanno scalpore

-------------

Nick Pisa in the Sun:

FOXY KNOXY AND THE BIG BAD WOLF Amanda Knox poses for bizarre Little Red Riding Hood photoshoot and shares snaps of her jetset life on Instagram


Barbie Nadeau in Daily Beast:

WHAT BIG EYES YOU HAVE Creepy Costumes and a Cat Named ‘Screams’: An Instagram Window on the Weird World of Amanda Knox
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Offline Sallyoo


Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:20 pm

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
An important question. Can anyone tell from the Italian reporting which chambers of the Supreme Court issued this?

Bongiorno wants "consistency" but wont ever get it if this is the bypassed First Chambers hitting back.

Things are made worse for her because in their ruling Marasca & Bruno spoke out of both sides of their mouth.

Not for the first time, I wonder if she has ever read their report.


It was the Fourth Section, Penal of the Cassation Court.
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Offline hugo


Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:20 pm

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:39 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Fast Pete wrote:

Re this smart Repubblica comment in reponse to Bongiorno, Sollecito's statement to Matteini was the one where he said he never wanted to see Knox again. It was written down.



I don't think that was La Repubblica, it was guermantes riffing. Italian journalists are a lot more mealy-mouthed and authority-shy than that, and they don't openly diss Il Presidente's protegee Big Giulia, or her clients.

Edit: For clarity I should add that when Bongiorno says 'Il Presidente', she does not mean any actual president of the republic, she means her late mentor, the former prime minister and senator-for-life (and mafia chief and murderer) Giulio Andreotti, in whose old Roman office, bequeathed her in his will, she still works.


Last edited by hugo on Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:17 am   Post subject: Supreme Court Beat Down   

Isn't the lack of mainstream media coverage about the definitive denial of Solly the Blade's compensation claim (and the reasonable inferences therefrom) rather curious?

It seems that, unless the respective PR firms hired by Knox and Solly are actively pushing their side of the story, the media just can't be bothered.

I suppose the fake news story about Knox's "suicide" (AS IF! XD), conveniently and quickly followed by her truly bizarre (if not revoltingly offensive) instagram stunt, could be a response to flagging book sales, dwindling speaking opportunities and fees, or perhaps even a means of diverting attention away from Solly's impending Supreme Court Beat Down (and the reasonable inferences therefrom re Knox)...

Either way, even Solly's former Booster Club is like ...
Image

No sign of the Moores now! In fact, it seems that just 2 Knox Groupies bothered to voice a hint of concern over Solly's fate - I don't suppose another GoFundMyPorsche project will be on the horizon anytime soon n-((

________________

PS What's happening with .ORG? (the site is down today)


Last edited by Jackie on Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:36 pm   Post subject: Machiavelli and ISF   

Yes, Mach's back on ISF, Jackie. Here he is in full flow against the last Amanda Knox diehards Anthropologic difference between Knox & Sollecito, and Guede
Quote:
Stachys, Hellmann draws an argument from an alleged anthropologic difference between Knox & Sollecito, and Guede.

This is called racism.

Hellmann calls Knox & Sollecito "goodfellows", lists positive adjectives, then calls Guede "different", based on his "human condition"....

etc.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:16 pm   Post subject: ZERO *$#@s Given   

Here's another interesting Mach post, Ergon.

Billy the Lying Liar of ISF and his endlessly repeated fantasies about what the Supreme Court actually wrote were FINALLY addressed by someone who, unlike our favorite "36 year old hockey player"/ alcohol-enthusiast, is actually fluent in Italian:

Image

Who are the Groupies relying upon for their translation? That Italian computer repair man?!

There seems to be quite a contradiction!

I understand that the Groupies may WISH to believe their guy who works in an Italian version of Best Buy, or whatever, but when subsequent appellate court rulings repeat the assertion that the SC affirmed that Knox WAS THERE during the murder, "indisputably", you've got to give up the dream.

But I suppose a simple man who spent his life believing in the existence of an invisible, omnipotent sky daddy, despite all evidence to the contrary, has no trouble swallowing, and forever sticking to, GSM's little fairy tales, despite all evidence to the contrary ...

In any event, where's the hue and cry from the FOA/IA/ISF/JREF crowd over the definitive ruling that Solly the Blade was NOT "unjustly" imprisoned for almost 4 years?!

They like to claim that PMFers were never very interested in Solly, but they seem to be no better in this regard. I was hard pressed to find just 2 mentions of Solly's SC beat down, and neither poster expressed any great outrage or sympathy - the needle didn't even budge...
Hidden Content: show
Image


_____

Oh! And, seriously, a cat named "Screams"?! That, in itself, is beyond weird, but to do this, and advertise it, when you're WORLD famous infamous for 'covering your ears to block out the screams' ... if she's not actually taunting the Kerchers, she's doing a very good job of passing for someone who is.

Image

What are the other cats named? "Lies" and "Alibis"?


Last edited by Jackie on Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline jamie


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Jackie wrote:
Here's another interesting Mach post, Ergon.

Billy the Lying Liar of ISF and his endlessly repeated fantasies about what the Supreme Court actually wrote were FINALLY addressed by someone who, unlike our favorite "36 year old hockey player"/ alcohol-entusiast, is actually fluent in Italian:

Image

Who are the Groupies relying upon for their translation? That Italian computer repair man?!

There seems to be quite a contradiction!

I understand that the Groupies may WISH to believe their guy who works in an Italian version of Best Buy, or whatever, but when subsequent appellate court rulings repeat the assertion that the SC affirmed that Knox WAS THERE during the murder, "indisputably", you've got to give up the dream.

But I suppose a simple man who spent his life believing in the existence of an invisible, omnipotent sky daddy, despite all evidence to the contrary, has no trouble swallowing, and forever sticking to, GSM's little fairy tales, despite all evidence to the contrary ...

In any event, where's the hue and cry from the FOA/IA/ISF/JREF crowd over the definitive ruling that Solly the Blade was NOT "unjustly" imprisoned for almost 4 years?!

They like to claim that PMFers were never very interested in Solly, but they seem to be no better in this regard. I was hard pressed to find just 2 mentions of Solly's SC beat down, and neither poster expressed any great outrage or sympathy - the needle didn't even budge...
Hidden Content: show
Image


_____

Oh! And, seriously, a cat named "Screams"?! That, in itself, is beyond weird, but to do this, and advertise it, when you're WORLD famous infamous for 'covering your ears to block out the screams' ... if she's not actually taunting the Kerchers, she's doing a very good job of passing for someone who is.

Image



'Screams'

Why 'Screams?

Does she want to be constantly reminded of Meredith's screams every time she sees this cat?

Is there something about this cat that reminds her - does it have a harrowing scream when she steps on its tail?

She's named the cat after Meredith and 'Screams' is her secret code.


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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:29 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Good question, Jamie!

And is her stupid looking owl mask, or whatever (to get "the creative juices flowing", or whatever) a nod to her "mask of an assassin" speech??? (She seems to like referring to, and making, and wearing, masks.)

And the incredibly contrived/WEIRD "Little Red Riding Hood" bit could be taken to suggest that she's STILL fixated on stories about rape (per wikipedia):
"A sexual analysis of the tale may also include negative connotations in terms of rape or abduction. In Against Our Will, Susan Brownmiller describes the fairy tale as a description of rape..."


As she moves to the 'wrong side' of 30, will she keep playing dress up? Even if she plumps up like both of her parents did? I think her fans will be few and far between at that point, which, in theory, could come before we see the end of all of these applications to the ECtHR ;-)

Even now, the most liked comments in the latest Daily Mail article are dripping with venom. She's not considered innocent or even likable by the vast majority of people reading and commenting there:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ublic.html

PR firms have their limits, I suppose.

I have to wonder whether there is anyone in her life that is troubled by what these CREEPY stunts could mean, or that tries to talk her out of going through with them...
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:26 am   Post subject: Zeitgeist   

For the media-studies students and gamers:

At the recent E3, one of the demo’ed games, Beyond Good and Evil 2, has a not entirely unfamiliar character.

[Ubisoft] home page

[SMH] , Tim Biggs, “E3 2017: Beyond Good and Evil 2 could change everything, if the team can pull it off”: “After flying the ship around for a bit, [Michel] Ancel zooms right into it to show Knox, the monkey from the trailer, standing inside.”

[Polygon]: “punk-ass hybrid monkey Knox”

[EnGadget]: “The BGE2 team has made a proprietary new in-game engine: It exists, it works, and we got to see multiple spaceships and Knox the monkey move around within it.”

“Let's return to Knox the grapplehook-toting monkey, the unashamed (f-bomb dropping) star of the Beyond Good and Evil 2 trailer. He is not the main character; …”

[ubi blog]: “He then gets out of the little ship as Knox, the monkey-human hybrid who starred in the trailer. (You won’t necessarily play as Knox; Ancel says the player’s hero will be a created character, and can be male or female depending on your preference.) Using Knox’s jetpack, he flies up close to the statue, hovering inches away so that we can see the detail hammered into the bronze.”

[IGN]: “There's Knox, the hybrid monkey…”
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Thesis Roundup

Theses and dissertations. The gist is that sources are vital.

Also, the Epicurus document-analysis program for lawyers sounds quite useful.


Quote:
The depiction in both legal and media discourses surrounding this case arguably serve to re-enforce the suggestion that females are indeed judged by not only the quality of the acts they commit but also as a result of their failure to comply with traditional gender expectations.

Shelley Dove
“Doubly deviant, doubly damned?: The Response to Violent Female Offenders”
University of Portsmouth
Institute of Criminal Justice Studies
May 2011



Judged by the media (who have their own agenda(s)), as opposed to the court-reporters and other professional journalists, of which there are very few left.

And judged by the Pratillo-Hellmanns of the system, who apply the ‘white-girl’ theory to the circumstances of the case, and then understandably get berated by the Supreme Court for attempting to decide the case in an “anthropological” manner. (Getting one’s judgment annulled, and so easily and obviously, and on so many different grounds, is no mean achievement, either.)


Quote:
Women have often been lost or ignored in the public debate. But due to the growing women’s emancipation, there is a rise in female crime and an overall change in the nature of their crimes.

Alisa Narbutas
“Knocking Amanda Knox – How Newspapers put Women on Trial”
Faculty of Journalism & Media Communications
Griffith College Dublin




Quote:
Interestingly, no DNA was transferred to the third substrate for any of the three transfer chains simulated.

Sannia K. Tauqeer
“Student Theses John Jay College of Criminal Justice
Fall 12-2016:
Exploration of DNA Transfer in the NYC Subway”
CUNY John Jay College

An experiment was inspired by one of the defence claims about how the DNA could have gotten onto the bra-clasp.

Quote:
November 2007, de Britse studente Meredith Kercher wordt dood aangetroffen in haar studentenwoning in Perugia, Italie.

Sophie Pelt
« De engel met de ijsogen : Representatie van het kwaad »
4 november 2011
Universiteit Utrecht

The Dutch is: "... the British student Meredith Kercher was found dead in her student digs in Perugia, Italy". -- "The angel with the icy stare: representations of evil"



Quote:
covered by news outlets in 2011.


Erin Rebecca Bone Steele
"MATERIAL MURDERS: “AUTHENTICITY” IN EARLY NINETEENTH-CENTURY TRUE CRIME MURDER MELODRAMA"
School of Theatre, Dance, and Performance Studies
University of Maryland
2012



Quote:
I have chosen two daily online newspapers both with an extensive coverage of the case; The Telegraph as a representative of the British press, primarily for its international news coverage and also the largest circulation as a broadsheet paper, and the Seattle Times for the US, as its density of reports on the Meredith Kercher/Amanda Knox case is comparable to The Telegraph.

Květa Suchá
“Concept of National Identity in News Reporting”
Faculty of Arts: Department of English and American Studies, English Language and Literature
Masaryk University




Why the Seattle paper had such an interest in the matter is another question.




Quote:
(This case [depicted in Winterbottom’s film] is a fictional transposition of the murder of Meredith Kercher, to whom the film is dedicated. A brief summary: Meredith Kercher, an English exchange student, was murdered while studying abroad in Perugia, Italy, in 2007. Exchange student Amanda Knox and her Italian boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito where convicted in 2009, but were released from prison in 2011 after a retrial.)

Jay Plaat
“The Rhythm of the Void: On the rhythm of any-space-whatever in Bresson, Tarkovsky and Winterbottom”
Master Thesis
MA Creative Industries
Radboud University Nijmegen, 2015-2016




Quote:
Two examples which illustrate the dangers of posting online without considering privacy settings are the cases of Amanda Knox, who was accused of murder and nurse Rebecca Leighton who was investigated over the contamination of saline bags in her hospital. US citizen Knox who was convicted of killing British student Meredith Kercher and later cleared on appeal found her private life featured on the front pages of numerous newspapers after journalists used information sourced from Knox’s own Facebook page (Cooper and Whittle 2009).

Larissa Belch
“Reporting the Death Knock: Ethics, Social Media and the Leveson Inquiry”
Edinburgh Napier University
March 2015

MySpace


Quote:

Claudia Koltzenburg
“The sum of all human knowledge:
Nicht-propositionales Wissen aus Literaturlektüure und
Bedingungen seiner Darstellbarkeit in Wikipedia-Einträgen
zu literarischen Werken”
Philosophischen Fakultäat
der Eberhard Karls Universität Tübingen

Wikipedia analysis, refers to Ruth Page (2014), “Counter narratives and controversial crimes. The Wikipedia article for the <Murder of Meredith Kercher>”, in: Language and Literature, 23(1) 61-76


Quote:
Runtime
For the Meredith Kercher bra clasp (see Section 6.6), likeLTD took between 16 and 17 minutes to query Rafaele Sollecito, and between 25 and 30 minutes to query Amanda Knox. In contrast, both EuroForMix and STRmix took less than a minute to run for each Q. This is a slight deciency of likeLTD, but the runtimes are not prohibitive.

“Statistical issues surrounding the analysis of forensic low-template DNA samples”
Author:
Christopher D. Steele
Supervisors:
Prof. David Balding
Dr. Denise Syndercombe Court
Matthew Greenhalgh
UCL Genetics Institute
Department of Genetics, Evolution and Environment
A thesis submitted to University College London for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy
August 24, 2016


Quote:
In 2011, Rolling Stones highlighted the Amanda Knox story in the culture section of the magazine, illustrating the ongoing turmoil for a young American girl accused of murder but more importantly of being a sex crazed woman. Amanda Knox, an American student studying in Perugia, Italy, was arrested in 2007 for taking part in the murder of her British roommate, Meredith Kercher. Whether there was damning evidence against Knox or not, when the press got word of the crime, they immediately sensationalized a narrative of the murder as a sexually related incident, with Knox starring as the crazed ‘femme fatale.’


Alexx Bonovich
“Masked Victims: Examining the Violence of Femme Fatales in Contemporary Film Noir Cinema”
College of Communication M.A. Theses
6-1-2015
DePaul University


Papers
Quote:
(Co-)constructing community-identity:
Pro-innocent voices in the Meredith Kercher murder case
Maria Bortoluzzi
University of Udine - Italy


Quote:
Another case (ongoing at the time of writing) which is receiving worldwide media attention concerns the arrest and detention in custody of three suspects – including an American student and her Italian boyfriend – for the murder of Leeds University student Meredith Kercher in Perugia, Italy. Once again, media coverage of these suspects (both from privileged, wealthy family backgrounds) has been extensive. In this case, however, an additional frisson has been provided by the fact that the suspects, like the murder victim, belonged to the Facebook generation.

Investigating the crisis of the present
CHRIS GREER, City University, London, UK
JEFF FERRELL, Texas Christian University, USA; University of Kent, UK
YVONNE JEWKES, University of Leicester, UK
“As we begin Crime, Media, Culture’s fourth volume, …”


And predecessors: MySpace, and so on.

Quote:
In recent years, the news media have provided increasingly less information. The photograph published by several British newspapers as documentation of the scene of the murder of student Meredith Kercher in 2007 is a degraded photocopy, in which little of sensational or evidentiary value is visible.

Brittain Bright
Department of English and Comparative Literature
Goldsmiths, University of London, UK
“The Transforming Aesthetic of the Crime Scene Photograph: Evidence, News, Fashion, and Art”
Concentric: Literary and Cultural Studies 38.1
March 2012: 79-102



There will be reasons. It’s not their fault if they don’t have the investigative skills, or the contacts, or speak the language, or aren’t pro-Mafia or pro-defence (as appropriate).


Quote:
The trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy was on-going during the period the sample was drawn from. The reporting of Amanda Knox demonstrated that adverse judgements could be made about women who deviated from appropriate behaviour.

Lynsey Black
“The Representation of Offending Women in the Irish Press: A Content Analysis”
IRISH PROBATION JOURNAL Volume 12, October 2015



Quote:
In other respects too, the [Italian law] reformers left standard continental practices in place. In particular, they did not eliminate the practice of staging repeated de novo appellate review. The appellate process is one of the features that sets continental justice most sharply apart from the common law. The common law permits only extremely limited appellate review in criminal matters. In a tradition stretching far back into the Middle Ages (indeed into early medieval trial by combat), the common law does not ordinarily permit the state to appeal …

James Q. Whitman
“Presumption of Innocence or Presumption of Mercy?: Weighing Two Western Modes of Justice”
Texas Law Review, Vol. 94:933


Quote:
Highly coercive interrogations are also a prime culprit. Many people presumed that Amanda Knox, the University of Washington student tried in Italy for the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher in 2007, must have been guilty because she had confessed. They may, however, have underestimated the impact of a 43-hour coercive interrogation across a five-day period in a foreign country, with the final eight hours conducted overnight without food or water.

The widely used Reid technique, developed by training irm John E. Reid and Associates and taught to many U.S. police oficers, is a virtual recipe for spurious confessions.

SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN MIND
January/February 2013
“YOUR BRAIN ON TRIAL: Lessons from psychology could greatly improve courtroom decision making, reducing racial bias, eyewitness errors and false confessions”
By Scott O. Lilienfeld and Robert Byron
ILLUSTRATION BY DAVID SENIOR

Hmmph, on the first par. Popular-science writers aren't court reporters.


Reviews
Quote:
The chapter on the Amanda Knox case, named in the book for the victim Meredith Kercher, lists “Double Experiment” as the math error. The crux of the issue in that case was a judge not understanding the validity of multiplying probabilities that can be reasonably assumed to be independent, and assuming, rather, that a second experiment cannot provide any additional information.

Michael T. Catalano
Dakota Wesleyan University
“A Sampling of Popular Books for Numeracy Readers”
Numeracy: Advancing Education in Quantitative Literacy
Volume 7 | Issue 1 Article 7
2014



Legal tool
Quote:
The test case to verify the tool was the case of the murder of Meredith Kercher. The input for the presented tool are the statements of the Amanda Cox who was accused of co-committing the murder.
The statements have been converted into annotated XML files
using TWT theory rules. The features of the tool are: …


Somaraki, Vassiliki and Xu, Zhijie
“Epicurus: a platform for the visualisation of forensic documents based on a linguistic approach”
University of Huddersfield Repository


Original Citation
Somaraki, Vassiliki and Xu, Zhijie (2016)
“Epicurus: a platform for the visualisation of forensic documents based on a linguistic approach.”
In: Proceedings 22nd International Conference on
Automation and Computing (ICAC). IEEE. ISBN 9781862181328
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:00 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

kwaad is another one of those words that links wickedness with impurity: dirty, in all senses.
Wiktionary

qued, in Middle English W
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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:30 pm   Post subject: Re: ZERO *$#@s Given   

Jackie wrote:

Who are the Groupies relying upon for their translation? That Italian computer repair man?!


Yep.

Quote:
I understand that the Groupies may WISH to believe their guy who works in an Italian version of Best Buy, or whatever, but when subsequent appellate court rulings repeat the assertion that the SC affirmed that Knox WAS THERE during the murder, "indisputably", you've got to give up the dream.


But if they admitted what the Supreme Court actually said, the sky would fall in on their heads and their world would end, so they're not about to do that.

Meanwhile London John is still trying to flog Hellmann's claim that Meredith 'must have' called her mother again after 9pm, had she not been attacked by the fictitious Black Lone Wolf. LJ is actually pretending that Meredith hadn't spoken to Arline that day. But she did, for about ten minutes, around 4pm before she headed off to Robyn and Amy's, and she asked Arline about that day's dialysis, and said she'd booked a plane ticket home in a week's time for Arline's birthday, and said she'd got presents for Arline and a suitcase full of Perugia chocolate for Stephanie, and said she'd fly home again in mid-December, and said she was really tired after being up all night for Halloween and she was just going to a friend's house for dinner and a film but she'd be back early because she'd got an essay to do and there was a 10am class tomorrow. (She'd completely forgotten, like most of the English girls, that due to the Italian Day of the Dead festival, which British people do not observe, there'd be no classes tomorrow.)

Quote:
Oh! And, seriously, a cat named "Screams"?! That, in itself, is beyond weird, but to do this, and advertise it, when you're WORLD famous infamous for 'covering your ears to block out the screams' ... if she's not actually taunting the Kerchers, she's doing a very good job of passing for someone who is.


Short of having 'I Did It' tattooed on her forehead, I think she's made her position about as clear as possible.

Quote:
What are the other cats named? "Lies" and "Alibis"?


Emil and Fats, so she says. Emil relates to Emil and the Detectives, obviously. Don't know about Fats. Maybe that one's black.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:19 pm   Post subject: PMF ORG   

No idea why ORG is down, Jackie but people can try Peggy at https://twitter.com/SkepBy
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:31 pm   Post subject: PMF ORG   

hugo wrote:
Emil and Fats, so she says. Emil relates to Emil and the Detectives, obviously. Don't know about Fats. Maybe that one's black.

You think? sun-)


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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:02 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Or of course the other one, Fats Waller, 'The Immortal Fats' (the title of an album of his stuff that my parents used to have, in the days of black vinyl and slight scratchy noises and fluff collecting round the sapphire needle):--

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSNPpssruFY
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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

There is "the fat one", apparently a mate of Guede's according to Mario Alessi. Perhaps better known to Knox as "Fats"?
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Offline penelope


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:21 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

.org has turned into an Umbria vacation board, apparently. Didn't see that coming.
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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:49 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jape wrote:
There is "the fat one", apparently a mate of Guede's according to Mario Alessi. Perhaps better known to Knox as "Fats"?


It's a thought, but that clearly wasn't a real person that Knox could ever actually have met. Alessi claimed that Rudy and the imaginary Fatso -- no names, no pack drill, all uncheckable -- followed Meredith home, a few days before the crime, to find out where she lived. But Alessi (or rather Bongiorno as script supervisor) failed to realise that Rudy already knew where Meredith lived.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:08 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I still don't get what planet Bongiorno is living on. Even as a politician, she doesn't come across as fair dinkum. Yet the media comfort-blanket surrounding her looks as if scripted for her. Almost as if an indulgence. Or a quarantine bubble. It's no surprise that she's shocked and taken aback when asked real media questions.

The audience's attention is, of course, on the string-pulling.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:17 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Another good book:

With jurors being unable to read or write (back in the old days), documentation wouldn't have worked, so the natural solution was to have the case presented orally. This in turn made it "difficult for appeal courts to re-establish the facts". Likewise, with the binding effect of precedent, uniformity of law comes about "without the need to allow appeals in all but exceptional circumstances" (see Mathias Siems, Comparative Law, (2014) [Cambridge University Press, 2014], [c3, B.2(a)] (p 50). ISBN 9780521177177)

Bit obvious, that, in hindsight. Being in the thick of the fray, sometimes the wood can’t seen because the trees are in the way.

So, where documentation works, a trial doesn’t have to be a single event, appeals can re-establish facts and, where cases are not a source of law (because everything is in the Code), precedents are not required and uniformity of law is achieved via appeals using the casssation (quashing) method.

Using legal families (common law, civil law, etc) to classify legal systems ends up hiding and blurring more than it reveals, and the comparing of legal systems can be done without relying on legal family classifications at all.


Even a very brief reading of Siems hints at comparative law turning out, in the end, to be a subset of anthropology: kinship and marriage, religion and mythology, subsistence and exchange, festivals and work, language and literature, economics and law – the rules by which people organise themselves. (And fake news webs now, too.)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

A bunch of news items cycling through into Google news, reporting Cassation has rejected the Sollecito claim of compensation for unjust detention.
e.g.
Repubblica

Bongiorno calling it incoherent, as in incompatible with the acquittal. She's going to take it further up hill, to Europe.
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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:22 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Does Bongiorno actually know any law? She must have known some law once but seems to have forgotten it all, or does not regard it as important. There are many lawyers like this practicing in the criminal courts. This particular stage, in fairness, is where other qualities can be paramount, and one's own ignorance of the law can be hidden from view. However she doesn't have those other qualities either. She's not even a dab hand at theatrics, and is neither charming not persuasive. She just churns out the same incoherent nonsense. One thing she does seem to have learnt though, and this seems to be what has made her a success, is that it is not the law you know, but who you know, or who you are, that counts.

Nice to see you back, Catnip.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:52 pm   Post subject: LOW TEMPLATE DNA SAMPLES AND MIXTURES   

Thanks for the reference, Catnip!
Abstract
Quote:
Abstract

Increased sensitivity of forensic DNA profiling over the last decade has led to increased stochasticity in the resulting profiles, causing difficulties for interpretation that were acknowledged by the Caddy Report [Caddy et al., 2008]. These difficulties were largely overcome with the adoption of statistical models allowing for dropout and dropin, but interpretation issues remain, several of which are tackled in this thesis. One such issue concerns the choice of allele frequency databases when the ethnic background of the true source of the crime scene DNA is unknown. I propose a heuristic for choosing a single database and adjusting the likelihood ratio calculations to allow for the possibility that a different database may be more appropriate. Another issue in general, and specifically for the database choice heuristic, is the choice of an appropriate value for the population genetics parameter FST to account for distant relatedness between the alleged contributor and an alternative source of the DNA. I present empirical estimates of FST in worldwide populations, relative to the continental-scale reference databases that are used for UK forensic DNA profiles. In the last few years many software packages for the evaluation of low-template DNA samples have emerged, including likeLTD originally developed by my supervisor Prof Balding but greatly improved and reprogrammed by myself as part of my PhD work. There remains little consensus on how to validate these software packages. I present a method of validation based on the use of multiple-replicate crime stain profiles. It relies on the intuition that sufficient replicates of even very noisy DNA profiling runs eventually generate the same information as a single high-quality replicate. I show that likeLTD performs well when assessed by this approach. Finally, I present a new statistical model that extends likeLTD to incorporate the peak height information in a crime scene profile. I show results based on simulation and laboratory trials verifying the good performance of the new model in improved discrimination between true and false hypotheses.


Source thesis:
Statistical issues surrounding the analysis of forensic low-template DNA samples
Author:
Christopher D. Steele

Sollecito's there of course, but it also has Amanda Knox on the bra clasp (p.139)
Quote:
Amanda Knox
When Amanda Knox is queried, all three programs support Hd at t = 50 (Table 6.7), with likeLTD and
EuroForMix having similar WoEs (-2 bans), while STRmix has a noticeably larger WoE (-0.7 bans). There
are some notable locus differences between the programs:

Interesting note on the forensic databases used in the UK:
8.2 Population genetics (p.150)
Quote:
Estimates of subpopulation FST relative to forensic databases suggests that some subpopulations are highly represented
in some databases; Jamaicans in the FSS EA3 database, Pakistanis in the EA4 database and Chinese in the
EA5 database.
Yay-)

picture of a pumpkin
This Post has been edited by a Moderator
Details: My error, while some alleles do match Knox's profile the WOE supports the Hd (Hypothesis Defense)


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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:36 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Re : Christopher D. Steele and his research thesis. Yes, Sollecito is undoubtedly there but I don't see the analysis supporting the presence of Knox, particularly as the detection threshold for most of the loci either flatlined or were given a negative value for weight of evidence.

I did pick up his comment that with LTDNA replicates are useful to minimise the risk of a total failure of profile or to minimise the risk of drop out. Hardly a concern with 36B.

As for 165B the quantity ratio for Sollecito, even on the conservative estimate by the defence, did not make it low template.
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Offline Jackie


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:37 pm   Post subject: SC hurts Solly - Knoxy hurts herself   

Woah! The Cat from OZ AND Hugo!

GREAT to see that 2 of my ALL-TIME fave PMF posters are still following the twists and turns of this saga!

(I was worried that, come the end of all of these applications to the ECtHR, there'd be no one left watching but me and 2 lonely, unemployed, morbidly obese, gainsaying halfwits from ISF!)

Interesting thesis round up by the Cat - I'm definitely going to see if I can check out this one: "Exploration of DNA Transfer in the NYC Subway” ("Interestingly, no DNA was transferred to the third substrate for any of the three transfer chains simulated.").

And I want to see if I can divine what Dr. Balding has inspired his grad students to investigate re the Kercher case by checking out “Statistical issues surrounding the analysis of forensic low-template DNA samples”.


hugo wrote:

Short of having 'I Did It' tattooed on her forehead, I think she's made her position about as clear as possible.


I tell ya, Hugo, every time I come around to contemplating a shift from neutral toward the POV that the Italian police and prosecutors may have been on the wrong track, either S or K pulls a stunt that really gives me pause.

I keep trying to come up with explanations for K's latest instagram stunt (mask/ rape story/ screams) that fit with the notion that she's NG, but it's not easy. The best I've got so far is that perhaps she is factually innocent but angry at those who have accused her (including the Kerchers) and, as a result, is taking some pleasure in mocking them and their theories about her via little nods to some of her incriminating statements/ spontaneous court declarations /short stories.

Here's hoping the ongoing PR stunts, suits and appeals will help to shed some more light! (Give the defendants - and the COURTS - enough rope and ...)

As for Solly the Blade's latest set back, it's been over a week since the news of his SC BEAT DOWN hit, yet the Knox groupies continue to remain silent on the matter (it seems clear now they really only cared about S to the extent that he affected K's position):
Image

So, his nearly 4 YEARS in jail was NOT "unjust" but the evidence against him was "insufficient"?! sh-))

One possible explanation for such a bizarre (if not legally inexplicable) outcome may lie in the knee-buckling effects of the fearsome sound of the State Dept rattling its hUUUUUUUUUUUUGE American Saber:

Image


(love the Clint Eastwoodesque line: "MAJOR burr under our saddle"
no attempt to intimidate the 'EuroFags' Italians there! XD)

Image

Seems Bongiorno is nowhere near as effective before the SC without 'Clint' here, backing her up, behind the scenes, through diplomatic channels ... 'no American at stake = no win for Julia'?

Come to think of it, Bongiorno really DID seem genuinely surprised by the annulment (with no remand back to a lower court for another round of proceedings) ...
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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:12 am   Post subject: Re: SC hurts Solly - Knoxy hurts herself   

Jackie wrote:

So, his nearly 4 YEARS in jail was NOT "unjust" but the evidence against him was "insufficient"?! sh-))


Still, you don't always get compensation if your conviction is overturned. In England, the Bridgewater Four did, because police broke Judges' Rules during questioning so the whole case was crocked, even though they were pretty obviously guilty. (The Court of Appeal said there was enough evidence to allow a jury rightly directed to convict, a formula they often use.) But the two most obviously guilty got docked board-and-lodging for their time in prison. Barry George was acquitted at retrial for the murder of Jill Dando, because the key piece of forensic evidence was mis-stated to the original trial jury, but the courts have refused him compensation. Don't know the exact reason, but they seem to think there was sufficient reason to proceed against him. And even Randall Adams, in the 'Thin Blue Line' case in the US, was never compensated by the state of Texas, apparently because he was sent for retrial and prosecutors declined to proceed, and a dismissal like that doesn't count as a wrongful conviction.

In Italy there's a problem if you are found to have lied to investigators, because you are deemed to have contributed to your own problems by 'gross misconduct'. So no payout for Sollecito.

Quote:
One possible explanation for such a bizarre (if not legally inexplicable) outcome may lie in the knee-buckling effects of the fearsome sound of the State Dept rattling its hUUUUUUUUUUUUGE American Saber:

Image


(love the Clint Eastwoodesque line: "MAJOR burr under our saddle"
no attempt to intimidate the 'EuroFags' Italians there! XD)


Ironic considering those wonderful mythmaking Eastwood movies were actually Italian. Clint, a TV star till then, was lucky: he only got the job because Sergio Leone couldn't afford James Coburn's fee and Clint was the nearest affordable thing.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 844

Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:58 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Any good guesses as to the real name of the person who wrote this?

http://uk.blastingnews.com/opinion/2017 ... 27191.html
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Offline hugo


Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:20 pm

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
Any good guesses as to the real name of the person who wrote this?

http://uk.blastingnews.com/opinion/2017 ... 27191.html


Don't know, but she does come from Bari.

http://donnevere.donnamoderna.com/contributo/maryt82/
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 844

Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

hugo wrote:
Fast Pete wrote:
Any good guesses as to the real name of the person who wrote this?

http://uk.blastingnews.com/opinion/2017 ... 27191.html


Don't know, but she does come from Bari.

http://donnevere.donnamoderna.com/contributo/maryt82/


Ha ha ha!!!
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Offline Jackie


User avatar


Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:38 am

Posts: 889

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:49 pm   Post subject: Re: PMF ORG   

Ergon wrote:
No idea why ORG is down, Jackie but people can try Peggy at https://twitter.com/SkepBy


Hi, E. - Well, I sincerely hope all is well with Skep - it's just not like her - I really don't believe she's the sort to let .ORG just slip away without a notice or a final comment.

A lot of brilliant people poured out a lot of brilliant ideas in an effort to support the victims of this act of depraved violence as they faced the revolting PR games and frustrating political and legal maneuvers that ensued.

Now that the 'main event' is over, I suppose there will not be many that follow the PR games, related law suits and ECtHR applications to the bitter end.

All of the forums dedicated to discussing this case are now in marked decline. The furrier's site is all but DEAD and ISF is down to a handful of 5 or so obsessive Knox groupies with no formal training in any of the relevant fields.

It seems the ISF thread is now a place where a few retirees gather each day to socialize and pat one another on the back for their lay opinions which, incredibly, they believe influenced the outcome of this case! XD

I don't know what it's like to be a senior citizen, so I shouldn't judge, but, if the translations are correct, you'd think their first clue would be the fact that NONE of them have 'argued' what the Italian courts have concluded:

1) the police were "too nice" to Knox during the interrogation that led to her incriminating statements (per the Florence court in the police defamation action);

2) Knox was "indisputably" present during the murder (per a Florence appellate court's reading of the Supreme Court's reasoning in the annulment); &

3) Solly gave '5 false alibis' to police (per the Florence appellate court that denied S's compensation claim and which, apparently, has now been affirmed by the Supreme Court).

How could the courts be so dismissive of the eloquent and persuasive lay arguments put forward on an obscure internet forum, dedicated to discussions about 'paranormal events', by lying liars who don't even know what a gene locus is?!
Hidden Content: show
Image

It's almost as if reading the Bible, drinking screech, "playing hockey" and collecting autographs from the accused don't count for anything!


Last edited by Jackie on Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 844

Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:03 pm   Post subject: Re: PMF ORG   

Jackie wrote:
All of the forums dedicated to discussing this case are now in marked decline. The furrier's site is all but DEAD and ISF is down to a handful of 5 or so obsessive Knox groupies with no formal training in any of the relevant fields.


I think a problem was that she proved quite an ingrate. Frank Sforza was booted out of her house, Fischer apparently went to Seattle to seek funding and was refused, the whole Sforza episode in the northwest was dampening. Ergon hurt them with reporting on that and Sollecito's several attempts at marriage. Ground Report is gone of course.

The uptick in numbers on TJMK lately are "courtesy" of Netflix. We ran a series still incomplete against their report. So theres still interest.
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Offline bedelia


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Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:12 am

Posts: 167

Location: New York

PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:45 pm   Post subject: Hello Jackie!   

Jackie wrote:
Woah! The Cat from OZ AND Hugo!

GREAT to see that 2 of my ALL-TIME fave PMF posters are still following the twists and turns of this saga!

(I was worried that, come the end of all of these applications to the ECtHR, there'd be no one left watching but me and 2 lonely, unemployed, morbidly obese, gainsaying halfwits from ISF!)

hugo wrote:

Short of having 'I Did It' tattooed on her forehead, I think she's made her position about as clear as possible.


I tell ya, Hugo, every time I come around to contemplating a shift from neutral toward the POV that the Italian police and prosecutors may have been on the wrong track, either S or K pulls a stunt that really gives me pause.

I keep trying to come up with explanations for K's latest instagram stunt (mask/ rape story/ screams) that fit with the notion that she's NG, but it's not easy. The best I've got so far is that perhaps she is factually innocent but angry at those who have accused her (including the Kerchers) and, as a result, is taking some pleasure in mocking them and their theories about her via little nods to some of her incriminating statements/ spontaneous court declarations /short stories.

As for Solly the Blade's latest set back, it's been over a week since the news of his SC BEAT DOWN hit, yet the Knox groupies continue to remain silent on the matter (it seems clear now they really only cared about S to the extent that he affected K's position)

So, his nearly 4 YEARS in jail was NOT "unjust" but the evidence against him was "insufficient"?! sh-))

One possible explanation for such a bizarre (if not legally inexplicable) outcome may lie in the knee-buckling effects of the fearsome sound of the State Dept rattling its hUUUUUUUUUUUUGE American Saber



Hello Jackie!

I'll come out from lurking so you know you're not the only one still hanging on hbc)

1. Are you neutral as your quote above seems to imply? Or are you just kidding us?

Way back before the first guilty verdict, I occasionally wavered that perhaps I didn't know the whole story. I wasn't in the courtroom and I don't speak Italian. Maybe there were facts I didn't know about. But I always came back to the staged break-in and clean-up, the weird lies (especially Sollecito's story about pricking Meredith in his apartment), and Knox's pointing the finger at Patrick and NOT retracting that story. Since the first verdict, my position was confirmed and I've only become more sure after reading the court documents.

2. Regarding the rejection of compensation for Sollecito, I don't believe that is incompatible with the verdict saying the evidence was "insufficient". What they are saying is that Sollecito brought the suspicion upon himself through his actions therefore he was not charged and held "unjustly". It's still possible for him to be released due to insufficient evidence, even if we all know that is a boatload of rubbish. Hypothetically a guilty person can get off without enough evidence. Even if we think the Final ruling by the Supreme Court is contradictory it doesn't mean the ruling on compensation is contradictory.

Finally, I believe that the statement by the State Department "source" was actually a low level Knox groupie (working for the State Department) who implied that the US cared more about Knox than is/was the case. Other than Senator Cantwell I don't think I've ever heard anyone official in DC express support for her.

Good to see you all again! It's been awhile!

hugz-)
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 844

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:43 am   Post subject: Re: Hello Jackie!   

bedelia wrote:
I believe that the statement by the State Department "source" was actually a low level Knox groupie (working for the State Department) who implied that the US cared more about Knox than is/was the case. Other than Senator Cantwell I don't think I've ever heard anyone official in DC express support for her.


Hmmm. We dont have a smoking gun, but, but, but... For starters read Ergon here.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tj ... da_knox_1/

We know that the low level guy who puffed himself up to the FOA was a James Moninger.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tj ... nlighting/

Now below the Secretary of State (Clinton then Kerry) there is an array of political appointees who dont have much to do except to get the backs of the higher-ups.

We know Heavey and Moore and John Douglas did a presentation to one or several of them (as well as to an almost empty room at the Congress).

We know that one of the political appointees enthusiastically accepted Karen Pruett's dishonest petition with phony signatures. No word on what happened to that.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tj ... _petition/

We know that the Rome Embassy (consular officer) monitored Knox's progress at trial and at Capanne - at great cost (maybe $0.5 million) to taxpayers. .

We know that not all of the cables from the Rome Embassy to State were released to Andrea Vogt. Why not? (The ones seen reported Knox's handling was fair.)

This might have all amounted to a potential roadblock to an extradition request though judges normally handle those.

Did this matter pre-verdict in Rome? Possibly there was some whispering in ears. It would have helped Obama/Clinton and Renzi in elections coming up to not have an extradition fight.

But I think the Fifth Chambers was mainly got to by other means. Sollecito organized it via an unsavory relative (now dead) when he flew to the Dominican Republic midway through the Nencini appeal.

Maybe Bongiorno was in the loop. She became very macho indeed right after that, and remains that way.
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Offline jamie


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Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:42 pm

Posts: 130

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:11 pm   Post subject: Re: Hello Jackie!   

Fast Pete wrote:
bedelia wrote:
I believe that the statement by the State Department "source" was actually a low level Knox groupie (working for the State Department) who implied that the US cared more about Knox than is/was the case. Other than Senator Cantwell I don't think I've ever heard anyone official in DC express support for her.


Hmmm. We dont have a smoking gun, but, but, but... For starters read Ergon here.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tj ... da_knox_1/

We know that the low level guy who puffed himself up to the FOA was a James Moninger.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tj ... nlighting/

Now below the Secretary of State (Clinton then Kerry) there is an array of political appointees who dont have much to do except to get the backs of the higher-ups.

We know Heavey and Moore and John Douglas did a presentation to one or several of them (as well as to an almost empty room at the Congress).

We know that one of the political appointees enthusiastically accepted Karen Pruett's dishonest petition with phony signatures. No word on what happened to that.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tj ... _petition/

We know that the Rome Embassy (consular officer) monitored Knox's progress at trial and at Capanne - at great cost (maybe $0.5 million) to taxpayers. .

We know that not all of the cables from the Rome Embassy to State were released to Andrea Vogt. Why not? (The ones seen reported Knox's handling was fair.)

This might have all amounted to a potential roadblock to an extradition request though judges normally handle those.

Did this matter pre-verdict in Rome? Possibly there was some whispering in ears. It would have helped Obama/Clinton and Renzi in elections coming up to not have an extradition fight.

But I think the Fifth Chambers was mainly got to by other means. Sollecito organized it via an unsavory relative (now dead) when he flew to the Dominican Republic midway through the Nencini appeal.

Maybe Bongiorno was in the loop. She became very macho indeed right after that, and remains that way.



There is a picture of Francesco Sollecito (Sollecito's father) attending assassinated Mafia boss, Rocky Sollecito's funeral in Bari. This had to be a private affair as the mayor of the town banned the traditional Mafia funeral procession, when hundreds of mafiosi come out in style and line the route.

The rumours that Rocky is some kind of cousin to Francesco, or even "Uncle Rocky" to Raffaele, does seem to support the common perception that Sollecito had his holidays to Dominican Republic funded by his, ahem, Family. Cosa nostro.

And who knows what freemason connection with the judges.


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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 844

Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:38 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Eh Jamie

Very very helpful! There is much insightful stuff here on Dot Net, I need to mine it.

On the Freemasons, in Perugia and Italy generally they come in different flavors. Some are a decided nuisance and the more ardent ones delight in tripping up ardent Catholics - like, for example, Mignini.

(However, Mignini has been on national TV several times downplaying the impact of these Freemasons and devil worshippers. He says they are very very small fry and most conspiracy theories exaggerate or are wrong.))

The Giuttari book on the Monster of Florence (the best but not available in English) points to a Freemason clique as having been responsible.

Umbria Chief Justice De Nuncio is known to be one. He was bent somehow by the defense teams to nominate Judge Hellmann and he pushed aside far-better-qualified Judge Chiari (who then resigned angrily).

Here's something by Yummi very worth reading.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tj ... _in_italy/

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tj ... the_trump/
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Offline hugo


Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:20 pm

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:55 pm   Post subject: Re: Hello Jackie!   

jamie wrote:

There is a picture of Francesco Sollecito (Sollecito's father) attending assassinated Mafia boss, Rocky Sollecito's funeral in Bari.


Who published the picture? And they actually said it showed Francesco at Rocco's memorial service? Because that would be the first overtly stated connection between Francesco and Rocco. Up to now, there's just been the facial resemblance, the surname and the shared hometown, plus the mafious way Francesco spoke in bugged phone calls and the fact that Raffaele holidayed in the Dominican Republic, a noted mafia bolthole where Rocco's Montreal Cosa Nostra 'family' had gambling and drug-running interests.

In the picture, Francesco does seem to be coming out of what looks like a church door. If the story is true, it would presumably be the memorial service in December, not the supposed funeral service in June, as that furry-collared coat is not what you'd normally wear in southern Italy in June.

Quote:
This had to be a private affair as the mayor of the town banned the traditional Mafia funeral procession, when hundreds of mafiosi come out in style and line the route.


In June, although Rocco had had a big show funeral in Canada, the church in Grumo Appula near Bari, where Rocco always kept a house ('the parish of Clot' as Google Translate has it, because grumo means clot in Italian), put up a notice advertising a funeral mass for Rocco, a big do at 18.30 in the evening so everyone could come. And the police said 'No you don't,' and so did the mayor, because they believed it would lead to public disorder, and they said the priest would have to hold a small private service for close family only at 06.30 instead. I posted a press report about this at the time.

Six months later in December, the same damn thing happened again. Perhaps they thought the coast was clear and people had forgotten and this time they'd get away with a proper mafia send-off. The same dodgy priest in Grumo advertised a big memorial service for Rocco, 18.30, everyone welcome. And again the police and the mayor said 'No you don't,' and so did the archbishop, and the dodgy priest was told he had to hold a small private service for close family only, this time not at 06.30 but at 06.00. (In December. Think about it.) The dodgy priest actually blustered, 'No one can tell me what to do.' A priest who doesn't realise that his archbishop can tell him what to do is probably in the wrong profession. But just as there are mafia judges, and mafia doctors (who put health-service contracts the mafia's way), so there are also mafia priests. The dodgy priest even told newshounds that there never had been a funeral service in Grumo for Rocco ('This person was already dead and buried in Canada!'), even though he himself put up the notice that appeared all over the Italian press advertising that very funeral service. Whether Rocco's body was ever flown back to Italy for burial is another matter. With the mafia, you just never know.
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Offline jamie


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Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:42 pm

Posts: 130

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:15 pm   Post subject: Re: Hello Jackie!   

hugo wrote:
jamie wrote:

There is a picture of Francesco Sollecito (Sollecito's father) attending assassinated Mafia boss, Rocky Sollecito's funeral in Bari.


Who published the picture? And they actually said it showed Francesco at Rocco's memorial service? Because that would be the first overtly stated connection between Francesco and Rocco. Up to now, there's just been the facial resemblance, the surname and the shared hometown, plus the mafious way Francesco spoke in bugged phone calls and the fact that Raffaele holidayed in the Dominican Republic, a noted mafia bolthole where Rocco's Montreal Cosa Nostra 'family' had gambling and drug-running interests.

In the picture, Francesco does seem to be coming out of what looks like a church door. If the story is true, it would presumably be the memorial service in December, not the supposed funeral service in June, as that furry-collared coat is not what you'd normally wear in southern Italy in June.

Quote:
This had to be a private affair as the mayor of the town banned the traditional Mafia funeral procession, when hundreds of mafiosi come out in style and line the route.


In June, although Rocco had had a big show funeral in Canada, the church in Grumo Appula near Bari, where Rocco always kept a house ('the parish of Clot' as Google Translate has it, because grumo means clot in Italian), put up a notice advertising a funeral mass for Rocco, a big do at 18.30 in the evening so everyone could come. And the police said 'No you don't,' and so did the mayor, because they believed it would lead to public disorder, and they said the priest would have to hold a small private service for close family only at 06.30 instead. I posted a press report about this at the time.

Six months later in December, the same damn thing happened again. Perhaps they thought the coast was clear and people had forgotten and this time they'd get away with a proper mafia send-off. The same dodgy priest in Grumo advertised a big memorial service for Rocco, 18.30, everyone welcome. And again the police and the mayor said 'No you don't,' and so did the archbishop, and the dodgy priest was told he had to hold a small private service for close family only, this time not at 06.30 but at 06.00. (In December. Think about it.) The dodgy priest actually blustered, 'No one can tell me what to do.' A priest who doesn't realise that his archbishop can tell him what to do is probably in the wrong profession. But just as there are mafia judges, and mafia doctors (who put health-service contracts the mafia's way), so there are also mafia priests. The dodgy priest even told newshounds that there never had been a funeral service in Grumo for Rocco ('This person was already dead and buried in Canada!'), even though he himself put up the notice that appeared all over the Italian press advertising that very funeral service. Whether Rocco's body was ever flown back to Italy for burial is another matter. With the mafia, you just never know.



You can find the article here (scroll down):

http://www.deliapress.it/products/parro ... ddolorato/
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Offline The Machine


Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Posts: 2306

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:52 pm   Post subject: Re: Hello Jackie!   

bedelia wrote:
1. Are you neutral as your quote above seems to imply? Or are you just kidding us?

Way back before the first guilty verdict, I occasionally wavered that perhaps I didn't know the whole story. I wasn't in the courtroom and I don't speak Italian. Maybe there were facts I didn't know about. But I always came back to the staged break-in and clean-up, the weird lies (especially Sollecito's story about pricking Meredith in his apartment), and Knox's pointing the finger at Patrick and NOT retracting that story. Since the first verdict, my position was confirmed and I've only become more sure after reading the court documents.


Hi Bedelia,

Jackie knows Knox and Sollecito were involved in Meredith's murder.

As soon as I read the Knox and Sollecito's witness statements, I knew without a shadow of a doubt they were involved. Sollecito admitted that he had lied to the police and blamed Knox for his lies. Knox repeatedly admitted she was at the cottage when Meredith was killed after she had been informed Sollecito was no longer providing her with an alibi. They were both given a second chance to tell the truth and they both decided to tell the police another pack of lies. You have to be borderline retarded to think there is a plausible innocent explanation for the multiple false alibis and numerous lies. Another huge red flag for me was Knox and Sollecito's claims they couldn't remember very much about that night because they were both suffering from cannabis-induced amnesia.

The DNA and forensic evidence further confirmed my belief they killed Meredith along with Guede: Meredith's DNA was found on the blade of Sollecito's kitchen knife, Sollecito's DNA was found on the exact part of Meredith's bra that had been bent out of shape during the attack on her, Knox's DNA was mixed with Meredith's blood in three different locations in the cottage; the bloody footprint on the bathmat was a near-pefect match for Sollecito's foot, but couldn't possibly belong to Guede etc. I could list all the pieces of evidence against Knox and Sollecito, but there's no need to because everyone on PMF knows what this evidence is.

Nobody bends over backwards to defend sadistic sex killers like Fred and Rosemary West or Myra Hindley and Ian Brady and I don't understand why anyone would try to do the same for Knox and Sollecito. If find it deeply sickening and perverse.


Last edited by The Machine on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline hugo


Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:20 pm

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:18 pm   Post subject: Re: Hello Jackie!   

jamie wrote:

You can find the article here (scroll down):

http://www.deliapress.it/products/parro ... ddolorato/


Thanks, jamie, that certainly is interesting. So it's Domenico Salvatore writing last December for deliapress.it down in Bova Marina in Calabria -- a long way from Bari, but they certainly know about organised crime down there. And he gives a great deal of background about the mafia and particularly the Rizzuto 'family' of which Rocco was consigliere until his unfortunate argument with a bullet last year. And the photo of Francesco is not captioned (most of the photos aren't), but it appears next to the photo of Rocco and directly above the paragraph about the controversial memorial service. And Francesco is emerging from a panelled door which is like the door of that church, as seen in some of the photos higher up.

Which is indeed the first public connection I've seen made between Rocco and Francesco. So... interesting.

I've a feeling Italians know quite a lot about the Sollecitos that they aren't saying, or aren't supposed to say out loud.
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Offline Ergon

Site Admin


User avatar


Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:20 pm

Posts: 7170

Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jape wrote:
Re : Christopher D. Steele and his research thesis. Yes, Sollecito is undoubtedly there but I don't see the analysis supporting the presence of Knox, particularly as the detection threshold for most of the loci either flatlined or were given a negative value for weight of evidence.

I did pick up his comment that with LTDNA replicates are useful to minimise the risk of a total failure of profile or to minimise the risk of drop out. Hardly a concern with 36B.

As for 165B the quantity ratio for Sollecito, even on the conservative estimate by the defence, did not make it low template.


Thanks for the correct, jape. Edit added to original post. Here's what the report said:
Quote:
Amanda Knox
When Amanda Knox is queried, all three programs support Hd at t = 50 (Table 6.7), with likeLTD and
EuroForMix having similar WoEs (-2 bans), while STRmix has a noticeably larger WoE (-0.7 bans). There
are some notable locus differences between the programs:
D8: EuroForMix and likeLTD support Hd, STRmix has the strongest support for Hp of any program and
any locus when querying Knox. Knox has one observed allele in a stutter position of Kercher allele,
and a dropout allele in the double-stutter position of the same Kercher allele. The dropped out allele
was observed when t=20 explaining the support for Hp by both likeLTD and EuroForMix when t=20.
D3: EuroForMix and likeLTD support Hd, STRmix supports Hp. Knox has one allele masked by Kercher,
and another allele that has dropped out. The dropout allele was observed when t=20, with which
likeLTD supports Hp, but EuroForMix continues to support Hd.
D13: EuroForMix and STRmix support Hd, likeLTD supports neither hypothesis. One allele of Knox is
masked by Kercher, while the other has dropped out. The dropped out allele was observed when t=20,
with which likeLTD supports Hp but EuroForMix continues to support Hd.
Both EuroForMix and likeLTD show an increase in WoE when t is changed from 50 RFU to 20
RFU; three peaks that match a heterozygous allele of Knox, and a peak that matches a homozygous allele of
Knox are introduced into the CSP when decreasing t, out of six total peaks introduced. The two programs
continue to have a similar overall WoE with t = 20, however, there are some notable discrepancies in locus
WoEs:
D2: likeLTD supports Hd, EuroForMix supports Hp. Knox has one allele masked by Kercher, and one
observed allele in the double-stutter position of the same Kercher allele. EuroForMix does not model
double-stutter, so must explain the Knox allele as allelic under Hd, supporting Hp, while likeLTD is
free to explain the peak as a double-stutter of the Kercher peak under Hd, and so supports Hd.
vWA: likeLTD support neither hypothesis, EuroForMix supports Hd. A homozygous allele of Knox is
unobserved at this locus.
139
FGA: likeLTD supports neither hypothesis, EuroForMix supports Hp. A peak has been observed that
matches a homozygous allele of Knox. EuroForMix must explain this as allelic, therefore supporting
Hp, however, likeLTD is able to explain it as an over-stutter of a Kercher peak, supporting neither
hypothesis.
The runtime for likeLTD was between 25 and 30 minutes, while EuroForMix and STRmix once again
required less than a minute for computation.
6.6.3 Conclusions
The three models return similar results for all evaluations, with the largest di erence between the models
being 1.6 bans for the Knox evaluation with t=50, indicating that all three models are likely to be valid,
with some differences due to divergent modelling choices.
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Offline Ergon

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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:20 pm

Posts: 7170

Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:11 pm   Post subject: STATE DEPARTMENT FOLLIES   

Hi, Bedelia, nice to see you and other PMF members who are still around. You are all welcome hugz-)

There may be a diversity of opinion on specific details but I think we are all generally agreed on the issue of guilt, and if not, fine. Any aspect can be debated.

What convinces me is the DNA evidence, the implausible break in, the false alibis, the false accusation, the Sollecito bathmat, the Luminol enhanced 'Knox' footprint, the stolen rent money and a whole lot of other coincidences. But, to each his own.

Re: the "consular official in Rome" assurance to Nina Burleigh "Amanda Knox would never be extradited" in her Newsweek article, and also appeared in The Express. I assumed that would be Ambassador David Thorne who was Ambassador to Italy and San Marino from 2009-2013.

He was John Kerry's brother in law and personal adviser, so it would be simples really for Senator Cantwell to bug the Secretary of State who then called up the ambassador.

The 'low level State Department Employee' I wrote about on TJMK who ran a pro-Knox Facebook group did provide background material and assurances to the fans, but he wasn't in Rome. FWIW, I believe Burleigh's source was Ambassador Thorne.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:32 pm   Post subject: Re: Hello Jackie!   

hugo wrote:
jamie wrote:
There is a picture of Francesco Sollecito (Sollecito's father) attending assassinated Mafia boss, Rocky Sollecito's funeral in Bari.

In the picture, Francesco does seem to be coming out of what looks like a church door. If the story is true, it would presumably be the memorial service in December, not the supposed funeral service in June, as that furry-collared coat is not what you'd normally wear in southern Italy in June.

Francesco (and Raffaele) Sollecito would likely not ever come up to Canada, hugo, since everyone connected with the Rizzuto family would come under increased, er, scrutiny wh-)
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Offline hugo


Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:20 pm

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:45 pm   Post subject: Re: Hello Jackie!   

Ergon wrote:
hugo wrote:
jamie wrote:
There is a picture of Francesco Sollecito (Sollecito's father) attending assassinated Mafia boss, Rocky Sollecito's funeral in Bari.

In the picture, Francesco does seem to be coming out of what looks like a church door. If the story is true, it would presumably be the memorial service in December, not the supposed funeral service in June, as that furry-collared coat is not what you'd normally wear in southern Italy in June.

Francesco (and Raffaele) Sollecito would likely not ever come up to Canada, hugo, since everyone connected with the Rizzuto family would come under increased, er, scrutiny wh-)


In June, a week or so after the big Canadian funeral, there was a notice posted at that church in Grumo advertising a funeral mass for Rocco at 18.30 one evening. It was banned by police and the mayor and according to media reports (such as the one I posted at the time) they had to hold a small private family-only service at 06.30 instead. In December the priest then tried to hold a big memorial service and put up a similar notice inviting all comers at 18.30, and again the police and the mayor banned it and they had to have a small private family-only service at, this time, 06.00. It's presumably at the end of that service that the photo of Francesco in his winter coat was taken.
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Offline jape


Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:57 pm

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Perhaps Papa Doc was hoping to have a word with Rocco's son Stephen who, as I understand it, was released on bail by the Canadian Authorities in June 2016, a month after his father's assassination, and who is believed to be currently running, in so far as he can, what is left of their mafia enterprise with the remaining Rizutti. I doubt Stephen would have had any chance of being at either service in Grumo. If he had he would surely have been of interest to whoever snapped Francesco but even if he wasn't it would have been good form for Francesco to show his respects, particularly had he a need of (further) favours. Cash for his wastrel son or an investment in the Dominican Republic would not go amiss in the event that their claim for compensation through the courts floundered.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:50 am   Post subject: ONGOING MAFIA WARS   

Hi, jape,
Bloody Montreal Mafia War Drags On
June 4, 2016 By The Boss
Quote:
The murder of Sollecito took place only months after the murder of Lorenzo Giordano another leading member of the old Rizzuto family leadership. Both mobsters were seen as leading options to step in and take control of the Montreal mafia after the arrests of newly crowned mafia bosses Stefano Sollecito and Leonardo Rizzuto.

Rizzuto and Sollecito were then granted bail, but are scheduled to return to court this September.
Street gang member linked to Mafia pleads guilty to drug charges
Paul Cherry, Montreal Gazette, Montreal Gazette 06.14.2017 |
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Offline bedelia


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Posts: 167

Location: New York

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:39 am   Post subject: Hello The Machine!   

The Machine wrote:
bedelia wrote:
1. Are you neutral as your quote above seems to imply? Or are you just kidding us?

Way back before the first guilty verdict, I occasionally wavered that perhaps I didn't know the whole story. I wasn't in the courtroom and I don't speak Italian. Maybe there were facts I didn't know about. But I always came back to the staged break-in and clean-up, the weird lies (especially Sollecito's story about pricking Meredith in his apartment), and Knox's pointing the finger at Patrick and NOT retracting that story. Since the first verdict, my position was confirmed and I've only become more sure after reading the court documents.


Hi Bedelia,

Jackie knows Knox and Sollecito were involved in Meredith's murder.

As soon as I read the Knox and Sollecito's witness statements, I knew without a shadow of a doubt they were involved. Sollecito admitted that he had lied to the police and blamed Knox for his lies. Knox repeatedly admitted she was at the cottage when Meredith was killed after she had been informed Sollecito was no longer providing her with an alibi. They were both given a second chance to tell the truth and they both decided to tell the police another pack of lies. You have to be borderline retarded to think there is a plausible innocent explanation for the multiple false alibis and numerous lies. Another huge red flag for me was Knox and Sollecito's claims they couldn't remember very much about that night because they were both suffering from cannabis-induced amnesia.

The DNA and forensic evidence further confirmed my belief they killed Meredith along with Guede: Meredith's DNA was found on the blade of Sollecito's kitchen knife, Sollecito's DNA was found on the exact part of Meredith's bra that had been bent out of shape during the attack on her, Knox's DNA was mixed with Meredith's blood in three different locations in the cottage; the bloody footprint on the bathmat was a near-pefect match for Sollecito's foot, but couldn't possibly belong to Guede etc. I could list all the pieces of evidence against Knox and Sollecito, but there's no need to because everyone on PMF knows what this evidence is.

Nobody bends over backwards to defend sadistic sex killers like Fred and Rosemary West or Myra Hindley and Ian Brady and I don't understand why anyone would try to do the same for Knox and Sollecito. If find it deeply sickening and perverse.


I believe you know what my beliefs are regarding the involvement of all three perpetrators. My point was to share that I didn't KNOW that the information on PMF was factual since I was not able to read witness statements or official documents. I went with my gut that PMF was the forum with the right information based on the highly intellectual analysis by most of the amazing posters, Catnip, yummi, Thoughtful, etc. Once or twice I peeked in on the other side to see if I was wrong but ended up spacing out while reading the hateful, illogical gibberish over there.

After the first verdict, official documents could be read which confirmed my belief. For what it's worth, I've NEVER believed them to be innocent.

It is truly amazing that so many people do support guilty people. I think on some unconscious level (or in some cases, conscious), these people must admire the killers for doing something they haven't done (yet). And of course they continue the pain inflicted on the family, which is truly the mark of a sadistic sick person.
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Offline hugo


Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:20 pm

Posts: 286

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

jape wrote:
Perhaps Papa Doc was hoping to have a word with Rocco's son Stephen who, as I understand it, was released on bail by the Canadian Authorities in June 2016, a month after his father's assassination, and who is believed to be currently running, in so far as he can, what is left of their mafia enterprise with the remaining Rizutti. I doubt Stephen would have had any chance of being at either service in Grumo. If he had he would surely have been of interest to whoever snapped Francesco but even if he wasn't it would have been good form for Francesco to show his respects, particularly had he a need of (further) favours. Cash for his wastrel son or an investment in the Dominican Republic would not go amiss in the event that their claim for compensation through the courts floundered.


They may be in touch, but it's unlikely Stefano could have got to Grumo, as his bail conditions set in June amounted to 24-hour house arrest except for medical reasons (i.e. when he has to go for cancer treatment), and he must have had to surrender his passport.

Just found the original report on the planned (and banned) funeral mass in Grumo in June. I see it was actually rescheduled for 6am like the memorial service in December, not 6.30 as I remembered it. Odd that, in December, the priest claimed the June service had never happened.

http://www.lagazzettadelmezzogiorno.it/ ... ciso-.html

According to Canada's National Post, relaying an ANSA story in December, the mayor of Grumo's objection to the memorial service was on the grounds that 'due to the Sollecito family's business interests, a large composting plant was being opened nearby without town permission.' Ah yes... those kind of 'business interests'.

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/chu ... bfe04a7460
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Offline Catnip


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Location: Eora, de Sydenie, 34S-151E, Nuova Gallia del Sud, het nieuw-Hollandt, Terra Australis

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:55 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I was thinking of doing a news digest for the reports of Cassation's rejection of the compensation claim, but they all say the same thing: that it was rejected, and Bongiorno quoted as saying 'It doesn't end here.'

VelvetNews prefixed that statement with B saying: "This obviously does not dismantle Raffaele's acquittal and I can confirm that it doesn't end here..."

Yes, obviously, as if anyone needs to be told.

Leonardo adds that Bongiorno "ha sempre sostenuto, a gran voce, la sua innocenza" (has always maintained his [=Raffaele's] innocence). "a gran voce" would be what in German would be "Weit und Breit", as in, like Rudy's evidence, "all OVER the place". A second-hand megaphone would make a suitable Christmas present for Advocate B.

All the sources perused (EuroNews has a particularly interesting photo: if all of the Seven Dwarves were called 'Grumpy', that would sum it up):

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2017/0 ... 169422173/

http://www.leggo.it/news/italia/solleci ... 31544.html

http://www.adnkronos.com/fatti/cronaca/ ... GagrN.html

http://www.ansa.it/sito/notizie/cronaca ... 36ab4.html


http://www.leggo.it/news/italia/solleci ... 31544.html

http://velvetnews.it/2017/06/29/omicidi ... sollecito/

http://www.si24.it/2017/06/29/sollecito ... ue/406646/


http://www.fanpage.it/omicidio-meredith ... piegabile/

http://www.umbria24.it/cronaca/assolto- ... ontraddice

http://www.unionesarda.it/articolo/cron ... 17480.html

http://www.consumatrici.it/29/06/2017/a ... -sollecito

http://www.lanotiziaquotidiana.it/umbri ... sollecito/

http://news.leonardo.it/raffaele-sollec ... etenzione/

http://www.affaritaliani.it/cronache/ra ... 87364.html

https://www.giovinazzoviva.it/notizie/l ... sollecito/

http://www.ilsussidiario.net/News/Crona ... e-/771500/

http://frnotizie.it/raffaele-sollecito- ... etenzione/

http://www.gonews.it/2017/06/29/omicidi ... assazione/


http://it.euronews.com/2017/06/28/mered ... -sollecito
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

A nurse, Daniela Poggiali, 45, was charged with murdering one of her patients, Rosa Calderoni, 78, with potassium, at the Umberto I hospital in Lugo, near Ravenna. She was convicted at first instance at Ravenna and sentenced to life. The Bologna Court of Appeal acquitted her. There were tears in court, on both sides.

One of her lawyers, Luca Valgimigli, said: "These repeated procedural turn-arounds are an expression of the fact that at this moment in the history of Italian jurisprudence, there are diverse cultural expressions sharing the stage", citing in support Meredith, and Chiara Poggi.

The other defence lawyer, Stefano Dalla Valle, spoke of an: "important judgment for the strong judicial acceptance of the scientific context which informed the decision of the court".

Tsicali, 07-Jul-2017: http://notizie.tiscali.it/cronaca/artic ... nfermiera/
Leggo: http://www.leggo.it/italia/cronache/lug ... 49078.html


(She didn't do herself any favours by posting selfies of herself with comatose patients, either.)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:17 am   Post subject: ECtHR proceedings   

The Knox calunnia appeal not having moved forward (and still in the admissibility stage) since last we heard, here's a primer:
http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Your_ ... on_ENG.pdf
Quote:
THE EXAMINATION OF YOUR APPLICATION
1. Judicial formations
Once the Court is in possession of all the information it needs to
examine your case, your application will be allocated to one of the
Court’s judicial formations, depending on the type of case: a single
judge, a Committee or a Chamber.
¨¨ I f your application is clearly inadmissible because it does not meet
all the required admissibility criteria, it will be dealt with by a single
judge. The inadmissibility decision given by that judge is final.
You will be informed by letter, but you will not receive a copy of
the decision. It is not possible to challenge the inadmissibility
decision or request any further information about it. The Court
will close the case and the file will be destroyed at a later date.
¨¨ If your case is considered to be a repetitive case, which raises
an issue on which the Court has already ruled in a number of
cases concerning the State in question, it will be handled by
a Committee of 3 judges. In this case, a letter explaining the
procedure will be sent to you. Once again, the Court will contact
you if and when necessary.
¨¨ I f your case is not considered to be a repetitive case, it will be
examined by a Chamber of 7 judges. The Chamber may still
declare the case inadmissible and, if it does, that decision will
be final, but if it considers the case admissible it will examine the
merits of your complaint. Before doing that, however, it will first
communicate the application to the Government concerned, to
inform them of the existence of the complaint and allow them to
submit observations on the matter in dispute. Those observations
are then sent to you, to give you a chance to reply.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:19 am   Post subject: ECtHR proceedings   

II: http://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/50Questions_ENG.pdf
Quote:
25
What are the different stages of
the proceedings before
the Court?
There are two main stages in the
consideration of cases brought before the
Court: the admissibility stage and the merits
stage (i.e. the examination of the complaints).
The processing of an application also goes
through different phases.
A single-judge formation will declare an
application inadmissible where inadmissibility
is clear from the outset; its decisions cannot
be appealed against.
A Committee will give a final decision or
judgment in a case which is covered by wellestablished
case-law of the Court.
A Chamber will give notice of the case
to the respondent Government for their
observations. Written observations are
submitted by both parties. The Court
then decides if it is appropriate to hold a
public hearing in the case, but this remains
exceptional in relation to the number
of applications examined. Ultimately, the
Chamber delivers a judgment that will
become final only after the expiry of a threemonth
period during which the applicant
or Government may request the referral of
the case to the Grand Chamber for fresh
consideration.
If the request for referral is accepted by the
panel of the Grand Chamber, the case will
be reconsidered and a public hearing will
be held if necessary. The Grand Chamber
judgment will be final.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:23 am   Post subject: ECtHR Proceedings   

III: http://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng-press?i=0 ... 39-7346027
Quote:
Under Article 43 of the European Convention on Human Rights, within three months from the date of a Chamber judgment, any party to
the case may, in exceptional cases, request that the case be referred to the 17-member Grand Chamber of the Court. In that event, a
panel of five judges considers whether the case raises a serious question affecting the interpretation or application of the Convention or
its protocols, or a serious issue of general importance, in which case the Grand Chamber will deliver a final judgment. If no such question
or issue arises, the panel will reject the request, at which point the judgment becomes final. Otherwise Chamber judgments become final
on the expiry of the three-month period or earlier if the parties declare that they do not intend to make a request to refer.
2 Under Article 44 § 2 (c) of the European Convention on Human Rights, the judgment of a Chamber becomes final when the panel of the
Grand Chamber rejects the request to refer under Article 43.
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Offline LUFC1972


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:01 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Maresca's book is now available on Amazon UK if anyone's interested.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Processo-Meredith-Francesco-Paolo-Maresca/dp/8846745833/ref=sr_1_2/260-1602480-9436720?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1499788554&sr=1-2
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

Posts: 844

Location: New York

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:15 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

The Emmies are annually awards in the US for primetime TV and the nominations (34 groups!!) for this year were announced yesterday.

Take a look here at category 28; see anything?

http://www.kiro7.com/news/partial-list- ... /558882226

The Emmy awards ceremony is two months away on September 17.

We have our big media expose of the Netflix hoax in the works on TJMK, planned for before that.

It will take off from this still-growing series. http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C932/

So in a weird way this could be helpful.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:46 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

In July, Sollecito has resurfaced, with Anne and Doug Bremner, at a congress in Prague:

Charles University, Prague
July 9th – July 14th, 2017

Anne Bremner with Raffaele Sollecito and Doug Bremner.
July 7 at 3:28am ·

Anne Bremner wrote:
Raffaele Sollecito, Dr. Doug Bremner, Dr. Richard Adler, Loren Atherley and I will be presenting Tuesday regarding the Amanda Knox/ Raffaele Sollecito case for the XXXVth Congress of the International Academy of Law and Mental Health in Prague. "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere".


Raffaele Sollecito tweeted:

Quote:
Dinner with Bremner before the Mental Health and Law International Congress


Anne Bremner added 3 new photos — with Raffaele Sollecito at Prague, Czechia.
July 12 at 7:46pm · Prague, Czech Republic ·

Quote:
Raffaele Sollecito presenting at the International Academy of Law and Mental Health XXXVth Congress in Prague. He did an amazing job - such a compelling presentation about justice and injustice.


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... 782&type=3
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... 131&type=3

For more pictures go to Sollecito's FB page: https://www.facebook.com/raffaele.sollecito?fref=ts
----------------------------------------
So, the Bremners are still at it, spreading their "truths", receiving the dividends on their involvement in this controversial case... I guess they are going to milk it for all it's worth! Expect this to continue for years to come. ;)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:09 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I see he went to another Marilyn Manson concert, guermantes. And given that his many requests for compensation seem to have hit a dead end, he should er, get a job? :)
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:15 pm   Post subject: AMANDA KNOX FINALLY JUMPS THE FUCKING SHARK   

From Fox News
In rare L.A. appearance, Amanda Knox details the pain of prison, and life after
By: Zohreen Adamjee
Jul 27 2017
Quote:
She tells FOX 11 even as a free woman, she finds solace in meeting those with similar experiences."The black impoverished men took me in as their baby girl. And I have to see them at least once a year to order to bring myself back."

Still infantilizing herself, is Amanda Knox.
And somewhere, Patrick Lumumba still hasn't been paid the 42,000 euros owed him.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:37 pm   Post subject: TWITTER RESPONDS   

@PYTSteph
Quote:
sorry, but it bugs me that she's even aligning herself with black men in america, stuck in the systematic racist prison industrial complex

@PYTSteph
Quote:
AS IF Amanda, girl. Nope.

@PYTSteph
Quote:
these people out here acting like i five a fuck or two about some dumb privileged chick's case. step up off this timeline.

Gives context to why she's up on stage every exoneration event, hugging a black person. Guilt about Lumumba?
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:40 pm   Post subject: ANOTHER EGREGIOUS CASE OF A WHITE WOMAN'S FALSE ACCUSATIONS   

And, copacetically, New York Daily News
Texas teen hit with felony charges and faces up to 10 years in prison after making up claim she was raped by three black men
BY
David Boroff
July 27, 2017
Quote:
Breana Harmon, 19, had told Denison cops that she had been raped by two assailants while a third person held her down, according to the Herald Democrat. She later admitted to making up the entire story...

.."The more we have looked at what happened in this case, and considered the harm it caused, and certainly could have caused, we believe what she did fits these higher charges," Grayson County District Attorney Joe Brown said in a statement. "What she did was very serious, and we believe it was felony conduct."

Harmon faces up to 10 years in prison.

So, not true that calunnia does not have an equivalent felony status in the U.S.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:14 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

(A) 惊
There’s a word in Chinese, 惊 (jīng), which carries the idea of “to be frightened, to startle, to surprise, to alarm”.

(B) From the outside
It’s useful having an outside perspective on things. Sometimes it can bring fresh insights.
For example:
Quote:
“A crime is any act, or omission of an act, in violation of a public law.”
— Amy Krois-Lindner, Matt Firth and TransLegal, Introduction to Interntational Legal English: A course for classroom or self-stufy use - Student's Book, (2008) [Cambridge University Press, 2008], [4.1] (p 39). ISBN 9780521748998


That’s obviously a Civil Law-type view of the world.


An outside perspective can also be unintentionally misleading, too, especially with what seems at first glance to be familiar but really isn’t, so care needs to be taken.
For example:
A German-language introductory book about Italian legal language cautions that:
Quote:
“The reader needs to take care, though, because this book is about translations of Italian legal concepts, which do not always find a match in German legal terminology. Also, the point of reference for the terminology is that of the Austrian jurisdiction, whch can create further problems for the German-language reader.”
— Stefania Cavagnoli and Jens Woelk, Einführung in die italienische Rechtssprache: Introduzione all'italiano giuridico, 2nd edition, (2004) [Beck/Manz/Stämpfli, 2004] (Introduction to Italian Legal Language), p 3.


The Italian perspective on the Common Law is particularly illuminating.
For example, in the context of expert testimony, a book about Investigative Interviewing, in a publisher’s series on “Aspects of Psychology”, says:

Quote:

“The influence of psychological research and expert testimony on the law and legal procedure, on police practice and on the decisions made in the legal sphere, in the UK, are unparalleled elsewhere in the world.”
— Letizia Vaso & Aldert Vrij, L'interrogatorio giudiziario e l'intervista investigativa: Metodi e tecniche di conduzione, (2009) [il Mulino, 2009] (Investigative Interviewing and the Statement), p 76. ISBN 9788815131133



Why? What is so significant?

Quote:
“This result has been made possible by the willingness of the British government, the legal system and the Police forces to accept the fact that there have been grave errors committed and that something needed to be done.” (p 75)


A mark ofcivilisation, in other words.

PACE is part of that picture:
Quote:
“In addition, PACE establishes new criteria for the admissibility into the trial of interviews with the suspect, allowing the courts to reject [literally: not take into account] evidence obtained incorrectly on the part of the Police, or on the basis of the psychological vulnerability of the suspect.
The American courts, instead, are more reluctant to exclude confessions as proof when, in their opinion, there has been no coercion by the Police, and the suspect’s vulnerability is rarely considered.
Even the requirements for the admissibility of the expert testimony is quite different in the two countries. In the United Kingdom, psychologists and psychiatrists are automatically qualified as experts on the condition they testify on matters within their competence.” (p 76)



In the context of how the offence influences the interview:

Quote:
“Often subjects who carry out sexual crimes are affected by personality disturbances. Moreover, mechanisms which disengage the morals, more or less unconsciously, can lead to a distorted evaluation of the action committed so that it can be minimized even down to complete negation.” (p 77)


This moral disengagement idea suggests a scenario.

Given the dropped dictionary in Meredith’s room, and other signs of a sudden containment and attack, plus the rearrangment and removal of objects afterwards, how would anyone with malicious intent even be able to get physically close enough in the first place, without some sort of defensive response from the intended victim?

Pretence, is a method that suggests itself. The appearance of normality, “What does this word mean?”, could be one way.

Someone several steps away approaching with knives drawn would, if noticed, allow a response even in the fractions of a second it would take to cross the threshold into the room. But there is no time if they are already standing next to you. All around you.

How could they have gotten so close? They were allowed to.

Quote:
“And the evaluation of the characteristics of the murder can inform the subsequent interview. Often this offence is not the result of careful planning (except for organised crime cases), but instead the action occurs on the basis of an unforeseen behaviour, as a consequence of the degeneration of the relationship between the murderer and the victim. An examination of the crime scene allows the acquisition of important elements about the deviant act. Studies conducted in th United States, by the FBI, found that the way the interview is conducted ought to be based on the characteristics of the murderer.” (p 77)


For a disorganised subject, the interview follows a line of empathy, eliciting a free-flowing narrative. For an organised subject, the investigators are faced with someone capable of managing the stress of the interview and less inclined to cooperate. (p 78)

Rudy’s writing on the wall, his attempt at “AF”, is certainly disorganised, not to mention his whole narrative(s). And all the other things he did, before and after, as well. But he can’t be both disorganised and organised at the same time.

Even if Rudy said nothing, his mere presence already strongly implicates others.

And what he does say, by twisting and contorting to avoid mentioning those others as much as possible, implicates them even more.



===
So who would the FBI be looking for?

At least one organised, a prevaricator and schemer, who thinks nothing of lying? And at least one other who, while not disorganised, may not be necessarily organised either, perhaps less so, or a nothing, as in a non-entity, an empty cypher, a null?

The Bremners' ongoing lack of concern for, and lack of attention to, Rudy speaks volumes.
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Offline Catnip


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:43 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Scalia has achieved his lifetime goal: he is now a footnote in the history books.

Specifically, -- in a nice big book with 783 pages of nice big print (Adobe Caslon, according to the Colophon, p 911): Bryan A Garner et al, The Law of Judicial Precedent (2016) [ThomsonReuters, 2017], ISBN 9783014634207 --, there is, for example, at p 755 n 18: “(Scalia J. dissenting)(stating that the world community practices are “irrelevant”)” and “(Scalia J. dissenting)(denouncing the Court’s reliance on foreign precedent)”.



To quote:


Quote:
Equally irrelevant are the practices of the [348] “world community,” whose notions of justice are (thankfully) not always those of our people.

Atkins v Virginia 536 US 304, 347 (2002)


Quote:
The Court’s discussion of these foreign views … is therefore meaningless dicta.

Lawrence v Texas 539 US 558, 598 (2003)

Hidden Content: show
'Denouncing' is right:
Attachment:
meaningless_dicta.jpg



Not only are there dicta, now there are meaningless dicta.

I always got the impression from Scalia’s textual contortions that he did not understand language or lingustic matters (or understood nothing beyond a layman’s impression of linguistics, anyway), as if the fun and palaver of being in charge always distracted him from the task at hand.

In the book’s index, his name is listed against 48 pages (some of which, like on p 79 n13, are to a book that he wrote with Garner, which is a bit rich, but by the bye) . The first index entry points to page xi in the Foreword, which mentions that Scalia was intended to write the Foreword, and also that “He spent his life grappling with the questions this book addresses.”

‘Grappling’ is right; and with a liberal dose of grease applied to the object to be grappled. Not to mention that the grapplee also has a huge head start, over the border in the next county in fact.

Back in the 17th century, theologians, moralists and other policy makers, in activity that would find its way into Court and jury procedure, were charting out the countryside of Doubt, and they found a need, when reaching a decision and verdict, to distinguish between doubts (which were logical) and scruples (which were emotional).

Quote:
This was a well-established distinction in moral theology. As Jeremy Taylor had explained in 1660, scruples were dangerously irrational impulses:

Quote:

“[a scrupulous conscience is] like a Woman handling of a Frog or a Chicken, which all their friends tell them can do them no hurt, and they are convinced in reason that they cannot, they believe it and know it, and yet when they take the little creature into their hands they shreek, and sometimes hold fast and find their fears confuted, and sometimes they let go and find their reason useless.
(Doctor Dubitantium)

Hidden Content: show
Attachment:
jt_03.jpg


— James Q Whitman, The Origins of Reasonable Doubt: Theological roots of the criminal trial, (2008) [Yale University Press, 2008], p 179.




A Scalian Shreek, indeed.

Scalia’s linguistics is an instance of what anthropologists in the old days used to call the Primitive Magical stage of thinking.

Quote:
“In religion, man is dependent on the divine, and in the context of magic puts himself in control. The practitioner of magic either acts independently of support from a deity (self-actualisation) or exerts influence on the deity (coercion) to cause the deity to comply with his wishes.”

— Terje Spurkland, I begynnelsen var fuÞark (2001), Norwegian Runes and Runic Inscriptions, translated by Betsy van der Hoek, 2005 [Boydell Press, 2005], p 13. ISBN 9781843831864





Following Scalia’s own advice,

Quote:
“But the more important point is that we should not design our jurisprudence to conform to dictum in a footnote in a four-Justice opinion.”
- Schuette v BAMN, 134 SCt 1623, 1645 (2014) (see also in Garner, p 117 n 13)


we can dispense with the big blue crayon, and we don’t even need, and in fact never needed, to draw a box around a word to make it have meaning.

Because, as the Supreme Court of Hawaii said, way back in 1902:

Quote:
”There are all shades.”

Nobrega v Nobrega, 14 Haw. 152, 153-54 (1902)
cited in
Robinson v Ariyoshi, 658 P 2d 287, 298 (1982)
[link]


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:42 am   Post subject: TMOMK WIKI   

Edited the Mission statement at The Murder Of Meredith Kercher to add the following:
Quote:
It is also our mission to counter the misreporting that has characterized this case, fueled by PR agency spin, Knox family misrepresentations, and political interference in a judicial process. Justice, and the victims of crime, deserve no less.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:03 pm   Post subject: GREG HAMPIKIAN NEWS   

Source: Forensic Magazine
DNA Experts Present First Exoneration Based on False Y-STR Inclusion
Thu, 08/10/2017 - 12:17pm
by Seth Augenstein - Senior Science Writer
------
Greg Hampikian in the news again. Someone convicted of rape in Taiwan using 17 loci on the Y-STR DNA test now exonerated using a full 23 loci profile. So, the DNA inclusion produced a match statistic with a combined probability of inclusion of 1 in 741, and a Likelihood Ratio of 3296 was enough to convict, but once the full 23 loci in the Han Chinese DNA database was examined that was enough to exonerate him. Don't know abt. other evidence in the case, but Hampikian likely will be arguing Sollecito's innocence soon, ahem.
picture of a pumpkin
This Post has been edited by a Moderator
Details: Edited to correct error in the LR data reported


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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:23 pm   Post subject: MORE GREG HAMPIKIAN NEWS   

Source: FSI Genetics
Case report: Coincidental inclusion in a 17-locus Y-STR mixture, wrongful conviction and exoneration
Greg Hampikian, Gianluca Peri, Shih-Shiang Lo, Mong-Hwa Chin, Kuo-Lan Liu
Quote:
Highlights
•A coincidental match to a 17-locus Y-STR mixture led to a wrongful conviction.
•Expansion from 17 to 23 loci Y-STR test, excluded suspect and led to an exoneration.
Abstract
We report the case of a suspect (Suspect-3) who was convicted (and later exonerated) of participating in the multiple-attacker rape of two women. The forensic evidence against him was his inclusion in a 17-marker Y-STR mixture isolated from semen on one victim’s clothing. The DNA inclusion produced a match statistic with a combined probability of inclusion of 1 in 741, and a Likelihood Ratio of 3296. While the defense team was told that Suspect-3 was included in the semen DNA mixture, they were not told that all of the Y-STR alleles could also be explained by just the other two accused attackers’ haplotypes. Suspect-3 was subsequently freed after the Taiwan Association for Innocence requested re-examination of the incriminating mixed DNA sample. The Criminal Investigation Bureau was then able to exclude him using an extended set of Y-STR markers (23 loci), leading to his exoneration.
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Offline Rumpole


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:53 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Evidence, other than just the DNA, seems to support his innocence, but one can't really make up one's mind without knowing all the facts:

https://www.slideshare.net/TaiwanAssoci ... hen-longqi
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:59 pm   Post subject: STILL A MYTHOMANIAC IS OUR AMANDA   

A new article on Rolling Stone Magazine
Amanda Knox on Life After Wrongful Conviction
She survived years in an Italian jail after being torn apart by the press for a murder she didn't commit. How the 30-year-old Knox is moving on
By Danielle Bacher
----
My comment, if it gets published:
Quote:
It might be Rolling Stones Magazine will always follow a liberal default position of assuming injustice, but still owes its readers a standard of fact checking? Amanda Knox can excuse her many lies to a sympathetic audience, but the facts will still remain. The Italian Supreme Court ruled as proven fact she's been present during the murder, but inexplicably acquitted her on the basis proof she'd committed the crime was 'tainted'. Somewhat like OJ Simpson, which she references here.

She elides the fact she lied on her alibi, which is why she became a suspect in the first place. She WAS convicted of falsely accusing her boss of murder and sentenced to 3.5 years in prison. Regardless how the European Court rules, she still owes Patrick Lumumba 42,000 Euros in compensation for causing him to lose his business because of her false accusation.

She also repeats the lie she was "interrogated for 53 hours over 5 days", to explain her "false confession" theory. Yet, according to "Myths debunked" http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Myths_debunked

-A review of her phone records and witness statements shows at best she was actually interrogated between 13-17 hours over 5 days and therefore cannot claim exhaustion. -

Disclosure: I am one of the editors of The Murder of Meredith Kercher site. Our mission is to provide the complete case file, with translations of the Italian documents into English for reporters and other people interested in this very sad case.


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Offline jape


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:52 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Not enough depth to that article, let alone as to any other evidence in the case. It's all about the Y haplotype and the database. Is this a database for Taiwan only or a database shared with China? But given the chart and the marked allele similarity readings on the Y STR for the three accused, why would that not help the other two as well? Depends on what other evidence there was, and very probably what evidence there was as to autosomal markers, these being unique rather than generic as with the Y.

It looks to me as if there was not much other evidence, other than that the three had been seen with the two girls prior to the rape, but that the two who remain convicted probably had sufficient autosomal evidence against them in the mixture, whereas the suspect now "exonerated, did not. But I'm guessing as to the foregoing.

If so, Hampilian would therefore need to be careful in drawing any comparisons with Sollecito. What he might try to take out of the case is that it seems that the prosecution tried to ride the suspect in on the back of the Y data similarity which, in the absence of anything else, would be a flawed approach.

Distinguish this from the case of Sollecito where the Y data did not "include" him but it did confirm (or at least make very much more likely) the autosomal marker findings.
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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:09 pm   Post subject: Re: STILL A MYTHOMANIAC IS OUR AMANDA   

Ergon wrote:
A new article on Rolling Stone Magazine
Amanda Knox on Life After Wrongful Conviction
She survived years in an Italian jail after being torn apart by the press for a murder she didn't commit. How the 30-year-old Knox is moving on
By Danielle Bacher


A dim and distasteful Murrcan groupie piece, but someone at Rolling Stone selected the least flattering photo possible as an illustration. In journalism, those things seldom if ever happen by accident. And Brand Knox has taken a bit of a hit lately, with Knox's bizarre support of suicide-procurer Michelle Carter in the Los Angeles Times, and then her yet more bizarre doubling-down in the West Seattle Herald, where she claimed that not even the most terrible criminals should ever be punished for anything.

Quote:
I’m going to go out on a limb now, but…maybe nobody deserves punishment. Not even the worst criminals. Everyone in society deserves to be safe from wrongdoing. Victims deserve to have their wounds cared for and acknowledged. What do criminals deserve? As broken members of society, maybe they deserve our help. As the criminal justice and anti-death penalty advocate Bryan Stevenson says, “Each one of us is more than the worst thing we’ve ever done.” Help may require custody, supervision, or even incarceration—all things that impinge upon a person’s individual freedom—but punishment beyond these measures may not be necessary.

Punishing a criminal doesn’t undo the crime.



Part of Knox's problem is that her vanity is not content with the idea that people think she's a naive idiot who talked herself into trouble in a foreign police station. She needs people to know, or at least guess, that she got away with murder.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:23 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Earlier this month, Knox wrote another op-ed for the Los Angeles Times. It was published on August 3. (Apologies if this has been talked about already; I follow this forum only sporadically during the summer.)

Yeah, she loves to sympathize with other criminals and argue that they don't deserve punishment, no matter what. Understandably so, as she herself doesn't want to be punished.

Amanda Knox: Michelle Carter deserves sympathy and help, not prison
By Amanda Knox

LA TIMES

Amanda Knox wrote:
The very fact that suicide is illegal reveals how self-harm confuses our sympathies. The suicide is his own victim, his own murderer. We naturally want to blame someone for the murder, but we’re reluctant to further condemn the victim. This emotional paradox makes it hard for us to find closure. But with Roy’s suicide, we have, in the person of Carter, another party to hold responsible. It’s much easier psychologically to reproach a villain than it is to hold in one’s mind the contradictory feelings we have about suicide.
...In our zeal to deflect blame, we insist on villainizing Carter because we want easy explanations, black-and-white reasons. We want to assign agency whenever something bad happens.
...It’s hard to feel sympathy for Michelle Carter. It’s also hard to feel sympathy for drug addicts or to understand obsessively suicidal adolescents. Even so, we have to try. Just because it’s hard to feel sympathy and understanding, that doesn’t mean it isn’t the right — and just — thing to do.


Comments under the article are worth reading:

Quote:
One murderer exonerating another. I have no idea how either one got off with being accomplices to first degree murder... They both should spend their entire lives wasting in a prison cell instead of book deals and worship by equally sick individuals.


Quote:
What a load of utter garbage. A totally contradictory piece of writing that totally disregards the victim and promotes the 'poor little' perpetrator. This is an alarming reflection on the mind of Amanda Knox and indicates a real need NOT to allow her to write for the public. You should be ashamed Amanda Knox!


Quote:
Thank you for that post. The L.A. Times is irresponsible for publishing this article. Knox does not have the knowledge to opine on this case. She is simply transposing her own victim status (proclaimed) onto Carter. She also isn't a professional psychologist, making her opinions about the mental state of the perpetrator equally irrelevant. Shame on you L.A. Times!


Both Seattle PI and MyNorthwest published short pieces about Knox's editorial.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:40 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Apparently, Knox has already responded to her critics (of the op-ed) in the WSH:

Amanda's View: More on Michelle Carter

https://www.westsideseattle.com/ballard ... lle-carter

That young woman (Knox) is an annoying attention-seeker and her writing is tedious at best. p-((( This journalist writing for the Boston Herald is of the same opinion:

Knox seeks sympathy where none deserved
By Joe Fitzgerald

Quote:
Amanda Knox is a repulsive wannabe newsmaker, not averse to hotly pursuing the spotlight even if it means splashing in the gutter.
Do you remember her? It’s obvious she wants to make sure you do.
...
Now, unwilling to fade from public view, she’s stumbled onto a surefire way to retain attention, urging sympathy for Michelle Carter, the merciless young woman who mocked and goaded Conrad Roy into taking his own life.
...
Now along comes Knox, maintaining, “(Carter) deserves the same sympathy.”

It’s bad enough for Roy’s family that, typical of justice in Massachusetts, the unrepentant Carter was sentenced to 2.5 years of incarceration, but ordered to spend just 15 months behind bars, which she is now appealing while living at home.


BOSTON HERALD
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Offline Fast Pete


Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:06 pm

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:36 pm   Post subject: Re: ANOTHER EGREGIOUS CASE OF A WHITE WOMAN'S FALSE ACCUSATIONS   

Ergon wrote:
And, copacetically, New York Daily News
Texas teen hit with felony charges and faces up to 10 years in prison after making up claim she was raped by three black men
BY
David Boroff
July 27, 2017
Quote:
Breana Harmon, 19, had told Denison cops that she had been raped by two assailants while a third person held her down, according to the Herald Democrat. She later admitted to making up the entire story...

.."The more we have looked at what happened in this case, and considered the harm it caused, and certainly could have caused, we believe what she did fits these higher charges," Grayson County District Attorney Joe Brown said in a statement. "What she did was very serious, and we believe it was felony conduct."

Harmon faces up to 10 years in prison.

So, not true that calunnia does not have an equivalent felony status in the U.S.


I have a feeling we knew this (lying to the FBI sure is a crime as we now hear every day!) but there is some subtle difference? Machiavelli is always keen to explain. Theres chat way back on this site.
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:50 pm   Post subject: Re: STILL A MYTHOMANIAC IS OUR AMANDA   

Ergon wrote:
A new article on Rolling Stone Magazine
Amanda Knox on Life After Wrongful Conviction
She survived years in an Italian jail after being torn apart by the press for a murder she didn't commit. How the 30-year-old Knox is moving on
By Danielle Bacher
----
My comment, if it gets published:
Quote:
It might be Rolling Stones Magazine will always follow a liberal default position of assuming injustice, but still owes its readers a standard of fact checking? Amanda Knox can excuse her many lies to a sympathetic audience, but the facts will still remain. The Italian Supreme Court ruled as proven fact she's been present during the murder, but inexplicably acquitted her on the basis proof she'd committed the crime was 'tainted'. Somewhat like OJ Simpson, which she references here.

She elides the fact she lied on her alibi, which is why she became a suspect in the first place. She WAS convicted of falsely accusing her boss of murder and sentenced to 3.5 years in prison. Regardless how the European Court rules, she still owes Patrick Lumumba 42,000 Euros in compensation for causing him to lose his business because of her false accusation.

She also repeats the lie she was "interrogated for 53 hours over 5 days", to explain her "false confession" theory. Yet, according to "Myths debunked" http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Myths_debunked

-A review of her phone records and witness statements shows at best she was actually interrogated between 13-17 hours over 5 days and therefore cannot claim exhaustion. -

Disclosure: I am one of the editors of The Murder of Meredith Kercher site. Our mission is to provide the complete case file, with translations of the Italian documents into English for reporters and other people interested in this very sad case.


"liberal default position" ?!?! Tut tut. Half our readerships are "over there". Liberals are more trusting of institutions including justice in my experience, its the fans of the Reagan legacy that want to take them down. :-)

Quote:
-A review of her phone records and witness statements shows at best she was actually interrogated between 13-17 hours over 5 days and therefore cannot claim exhaustion.


I am not wildly fond of this wording in the Wiki, Knox was NOT interrogated according to the Italian definition at all except twice at her own request by Mignini (Dec 2007 and July 2009).

Those were discussions with a witness with possible useful information, nothing more, AS DEFENSES AT TRIAL AGREED. They could have been done on a street corner.

Knox was hanging around VOLUNTARILY for those 53 hours and could have walked out of the police station at any time.
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Quote:
Knox seeks sympathy where none deserved
By Joe Fitzgerald

Quote:
Amanda Knox is a repulsive wannabe newsmaker, not averse to hotly pursuing the spotlight even if it means splashing in the gutter.
Do you remember her? It’s obvious she wants to make sure you do.
...
Now, unwilling to fade from public view, she’s stumbled onto a surefire way to retain attention, urging sympathy for Michelle Carter, the merciless young woman who mocked and goaded Conrad Roy into taking his own life.
...
Now along comes Knox, maintaining, “(Carter) deserves the same sympathy.”

It’s bad enough for Roy’s family that, typical of justice in Massachusetts, the unrepentant Carter was sentenced to 2.5 years of incarceration, but ordered to spend just 15 months behind bars, which she is now appealing while living at home.


BOSTON HERALD


Erk! Already most of the article is behind the paywall.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Distasteful: Knox and BF are featured on the pages of this week's People magazine. She definitively has no plans to voluntarily leave the spotlight and retreat into the background.
Annoying b****! (I'm sorry).

Amanda Knox Is in Love and Rebuilding Her Life 6 Years After Being Released from Italian Prison (VIDEO, PHOTOS)
By Jeff Truesdell

Now, six years after Knox’s homecoming, the subject of the Emmy-nominated Netflix documentary Amanda Knox tells PEOPLE exclusively in this week’s issue that she’s savoring the “normal-person” life she’s reclaimed, with a new love in her native Pacific Northwest — and she’s even planning a return next year to the Italian city where she lost her freedom.

“I’m not disappearing into oblivion,” says Knox, 30. “I have something to say.”
...
“My little sister is getting married this November, and I’m having a blast coming up with awesome ways to make her feel special about that really important decision in her life,” Knox says.

And while she and Robinson talk “all the time” about getting married and having children, they’ve deferred plans until after Knox’s sister, Deanna, 28 — who put her life on hold during Knox’s legal ordeal — has her time as a bride.


PEOPLE

Preview: PEOPLE MAG
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:04 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Looks like Knox was also interviewed by Playboy:

Playboy @Playboy

Quote:
Amanda Knox gets incredibly, intensely honest with Playboy: http://ply.by/2B5tqt


August 17, 2017
How Did Being 'Foxy' Hurt Amanda Knox?
By Isabelle Kohn

...Sitting across from her in a crowded conference room at Hollywood’s W Hotel, where she’s signing books and leading a panel to benefit the wrongfully convicted, it’s hard to imagine the erudite, eloquent person in front of me is who many have considered to be the most reviled temptress of the new millennium.

A lot has changed for Amanda Knox since she came home in 2011. Her first order of business was to collect three cats, a highly educated and supportive partner, and a quiet suburban life away from the paparazzi and still-glaring public eye. Then she started writing. First, for her local newspaper Westside Seattle, then, a best-selling memoir and series of articles for Broadly focusing on how women experience the judicial system. She’s been writing a lot about women, actually. Knox has become something of an expert on gender bias and sexualization in court: why women falsely confess and the way they’re objectified in order to rationalize their guilt. She’s now in the beginning stages of writing another book on this very topic: how we vilify women with known associations with sex, how we subject them to misogynistic and unrealistic misrepresentation when they are accused of crimes.

...That weight could have broken anyone. This conference room in West Hollywood, with its neon tributes to Clear Channel’s Top 40 and vases of glass baubles with unknowable purposes, might have looked trite to someone arriving there to bare their soul. Not her. Amanda Knox has gone through hell to stand on a conference room stage in West Hollywood, and she’ll be damned if what happened to her ends in anything other than resilience.


PLAYBOY

Quote: "...a quiet suburban life away from the paparazzi and still-glaring public eye."
??? Just the opposite is true: she has been the one to seek the spotlight and a pat on the back a little too often, in my opinion.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:51 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Why Amanda Knox Is Returning to Italy for the First Time Since Her Exoneration for Murder (VIDEO):

http://people.com/crime/amanda-knox-returning-to-italy/

Yes, the murderer always returns to the scene of his/her crime. Sollecito did the same with his girlfriend. I hope Knox will be "welcomed" accordingly, by the people of Perugia ("Vergogna!" "Assassina!") Don't worry folks, Knox will get her "due reward" from the Fate, she will reap the fruit of that which she herself has sown or created in her thirst for publicity. Karma will hit her back. Knox loves to challenge and offend people with her provocative actions; she doesn't know when to quit. What she doesn't realize is that she is only damaging her own public image.

Yes, I understand that they are only promoting the Amanda Knox documentary ahead of 69th Emmy Awards on September 17, but still..: PEOPLE.

More of the same:
Book deal, legal fees, loans
Boyfriend, marriage and kids
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:35 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

August 18, 2017
Murdered Meredith Kercher's family condemn Amanda Knox over 'inopportune plans' to revisit Italian town where the British student was killed

But Frencesco Maresca, the Kercher family's lawyer, said Ms Knox is not welcome in Perugia.

'I believe Amanda Knox's choice to return is totally inopportune because the death of Meredith was very painful for Perugia and people there feel they have never had a satisfactory response from the Italian justice system,' he told The Telegraph.

'That is why Knox should think about her life without continuing to return to this sad affair from which she has been the only one to profit, both in terms of fame and money.'


DAILY MAIL

Comments in DM are always interesting:

Maria Giordano, San Francisco, United States, about 3 hours ago

Quote:
One would have hoped that at age 30, Amanda Knox might finally have started moving beyond her own pathetic, immature self-absorption? Apparently not. Clearly it is insensitive and opportunistic for her to revisit Perugia to supposedly heal her inner wounds. What she has never understood is that this is not about her. It's about the loss of a beautiful young British woman, Merideth Kercher, and the trauma this sordid ordeal has caused for the people of Perugia, and, most of all, for the ever gracious Kercher family. It's good that Knox's legal case is finally resolved. But, Knox needs to leave it alone--and, hopefully finally leave the public spotlight if she is even capable of not always making herself the center of attention , that is? The public has heard far too much from her and about her over the years, in my opinion.


Tuscano Rosso, Pietrasanta, Italy, 2 days ago

Quote:
They should lock her up if she comes back. You are not welcome here. You may have fooled the world, but most people here in Italy don't believe you. Stay away!
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:54 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

This news - about Knox's plans to return to Perugia - is generating lots of headlines, quite predictably.

A Decade Later: Amanda Knox Plans Her Return to the Scene of Meredith Kercher's Murder
By Barbie Latza Nadeau

...She told People she hopes to launch a reality television series about the way people accused of crimes are depicted in the media.

Of course, the inevitable media circus surrounding her eventual return to Perugia—bids are already flying in by networks who want to cover the trip exclusively—will surely help those projects immensely.

It should come as no real surprise that someone whose adult life has played out inside a fishbowl under the media’s glare would choose essentially to invite the world along on her journey by announcing her return to the scene of the crime. Why should it be any other way?


THE DAILY BEAST

Amanda Knox to return to Italian city where she was imprisoned for murder - KOMO News

Quote:
She told "Good Morning America" in 2014 that she would never set foot on Italian soil of her own volition.


Amanda Knox Wants To Return To Murder Scene In Italy - International Business Times

Quote:
"A decade has passed. I've processed a lot in the meantime," she told People. "But this feels like the next step of the process. I'm no longer the bright-eyed girl who shows up with the best of intentions. I'm coming in fully aware of the context of what it's going to be like, but I look forward to it."
...
The prosecutor in the case, however, said that while he wasn't shocked by Knox's wish to return, he hoped it wouldn't be to commemorate the actual day of Kercher's death.

"That would send the wrong message," Guiliano Mignini told The Daily Beast.
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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:44 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

If you can stand it, here's more of Knox's self-serving chatter on #PEN, via People EW Network:

Amanda Knox: My Life After Prison (full episode, 12 min)

http://people.com/pen/00000158-3295-d6e ... f76e20000/

Fake smiles, fake tears. Her voice is a mixture of anger and self-satisfaction. Its falsity is so palpable to any musical person. Not counting facial expressions that are tense and strained. Fully agree with DavidB's comment on TJMK:

Quote:
It really flummoxes me that people think she is innocent by even watching her. Never mind all the evidence.
Just watching and hearing her voice would convince me she is guilty if I knew nothing about the case.
The hollow voice, insincere eyes. And doesn’t it ever cross anyone’s mind that she never ever even mentions Meredith’s name?
Then she’s posing for the camera.
It really is exasperating.

Posted by DavidB on 08/21/17 at 08:37 AM | #
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:24 am   Post subject: Re: ANOTHER EGREGIOUS CASE OF A WHITE WOMAN'S FALSE ACCUSATIONS   

Fast Pete wrote:
Ergon wrote:
And, copacetically, New York Daily News
Texas teen hit with felony charges and faces up to 10 years in prison after making up claim she was raped by three black men
BY
David Boroff
July 27, 2017
Quote:
Breana Harmon, 19, had told Denison cops that she had been raped by two assailants while a third person held her down, according to the Herald Democrat. She later admitted to making up the entire story...

.."The more we have looked at what happened in this case, and considered the harm it caused, and certainly could have caused, we believe what she did fits these higher charges," Grayson County District Attorney Joe Brown said in a statement. "What she did was very serious, and we believe it was felony conduct."

Harmon faces up to 10 years in prison.

So, not true that calunnia does not have an equivalent felony status in the U.S.


I have a feeling we knew this (lying to the FBI sure is a crime as we now hear every day!) but there is some subtle difference? Machiavelli is always keen to explain. Theres chat way back on this site.


Yes we posted this on TJMK several years ago. The point was to emphasize calunnia is more serious than diffamazione.

Quote:
Explanation of calunnia

The charge of calunnia (art. 368) has been commonly translated as “slander” in the English/US media. This translation is incorrect, however, as calunnia is a crime with no direct equivalent in the respective legal systems.

The equivalent of “criminal slander” is diffamazione, which is an attack on someone‟s reputation. Calunnia is the crime of making false criminal accusations against someone whom the accuser knows to be innocent, or to simulate/fabricate false evidence, independently of the credibility/admissibility of the accusation or evidence.

The charges of calunnia and diffamazione are subject to very different jurisprudence. Diffamazione is public and explicit, and is a more minor offence, usually resulting in a fine and only prosecuted if the victim files a complaint, while calunnia can be secret or known only to the authorities. It may consist only of the simulation of clues, and is automatically prosecuted by the judiciary.

The crimes of calunnia and diffamazione are located in different sections of the criminal code: while diffamazione is in the chapter entitled “crimes against honour” in the section of the Code protecting personal liberties, calunnia is discussed in the chapter entitled “crimes against the administration of justice”, in a section that protects public powers.


I do like though what Ergon found - Knox's crime would have been considered very serious in the US also.
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:47 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hi Guermantes

Regarding all these interviews and speaking engagements:

What seems to have changed is that Knox has got herself the help of the hotshot showbiz agents All American Entertainment in Durham North Carolina.

Some press releases will go out to all those duped groups shortly.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:12 pm   Post subject: INNOCENCE FRAUD AGAIN?   

Innocence Fraud again? Re Marcellus Williams AP News
ST. LOUIS (AP) — Missouri Gov. Eric Greitens halted Tuesday’s scheduled execution of condemned killer Marcellus Williams after DNA raised questions about his guilt.
Quote:
"Williams’ attorneys cite DNA evidence on the murder weapon that matches another unknown man, but not Williams. But St. Louis County prosecutor Bob McCulloch says the DNA tests were simply inconclusive. McCulloch says there is ample other evidence that Williams committed the crime."

I'm against the DP but new "sensitive DNA tests" often throw up random profiles not matched to anyone else #MarcellusWilliams might still be guilty. A panel of judges will determine whether he received a fair trial. Beyond that, the DNA argument is shaky as hell.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:20 pm   Post subject: KNOX SHENANIGANS   

Amanda Knox pulls one stunt after the other in her bid to monetize and self-affirm her role in Meredith Kercher's murder. She really enjoys the attention she's been getting from the media and the wrongful conviction industry and I'm not responding to every picture she posts to her Instagram account. Calls her cat "Mr. Screams"? OK then it just points to her psychology. Current boyfriend Chris Robinson takes pictures of her "preparing food" and there she is, brandishing her knife? He's seems like a Sollecito clone. Already been done, with RS pictures on Facebook and on the Netflix documentary as she ahem, prepares food.

But her latest, that she might visit Perugia, presumably on the 10th anniversary? She's never, ever going to Italy IMO.

a) She's really scared she might get arrested again. A real, justifiable fear because,
b) Karma may happen.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:46 pm   Post subject: MARCELLUS WILLIAMS   

Re the Marcellus Williams stay of execution. A five judge panel of the Missouri Supreme Court will review the appeal one more time to see whether to order a retrial. Not sure they will, for reasons given below.

Source: courtesy of Reddit user GutchSeeker
Quote:
On August 11, 1998, Williams drove his grandfather's car to a bus stop and then took a bus to University City, Missouri. While in University City, Williams burglarized Felicia Gayle's home and fatally stabbed her. After the murder, Williams washed off and took a jacket to conceal his bloody shirt. He left Gayle's home with her purse and her husband's laptop computer.

Williams returned to the bus stop, retrieved the car, and then picked up his girlfriend, Laura Asaro. Asaro testified at trial that she saw Williams' bloody shirt and the laptop computer. She also saw Williams place the clothes in his backpack and throw the backpack into a storm sewer. Asaro further testified that, the next day, while retrieving some of her clothing from the car trunk, she found Gayle's purse, which contained Gayle's state identification card, coin purse, and several grocery coupons. Asaro confronted Williams about the items. Williams then confessed to Asaro the details of the murder. A few days later, Asaro also discovered a calculator and a ruler in the car. Both of these items belonged to Gayle.

Approximately three weeks later, Williams was arrested on unrelated charges and incarcerated in the St. Louis City workhouse. At that point, no arrest had been made in the Gayle case and Williams was not a suspect. However, in May 1999, Williams was talking with his cellmate, Henry Cole, and confessed to the murder. Cole was released from jail in June 1999 and went to the University City police and told of Williams' involvement in the murder, including details that had not been publicly reported. In November 1999, Asaro also told University City police that Williams had confessed to Gayle's murder. The police searched the car Williams had driven on the day of the murder and found some of Gayle's personal belongings in the car trunk. The police also recovered Gayle's husband's laptop computer from Glenn Roberts. Roberts was an acquaintance of Williams to whom he had sold the laptop after the murder.

Williams was tried and convicted of one count of first-degree murder, first- degree burglary, and first-degree robbery and two counts of armed criminal action. Williams was sentenced to death on the murder conviction. This Court affirmed the conviction and sentence on direct appeal. State v. Williams, 97 S.W.3d 462 (Mo. banc 2003).

Reminds me of Raffaele Sollecito inserting Gill's flawed DNA report in his appeal to the Rome Supreme Court. Seems like another Hail Mary attempt, but I doubt the judges will entertain it in William's case.

Not sure, really, that these new DNA tests meet the Daubert standard.


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Offline guermantes

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:26 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Knox's latest piece about prejudice against women:

Amanda Knox: Why We Love to Hate 'Trainwreck' Women
By Amanda Knox
Aug 23 2017, 9:43am

Amanda Knox wrote:
I was struck by your observation that trainwrecks are expected to disappear. After I came home from Italy, I discovered that I, too, was expected to disappear, and to want to disappear. Some people thought, "After everything you've been through, why would you ever want to be in the public eye ever again?" They suggested that I change my name, and reassured me that in a few years I'd age out of recognition and wouldn't be a "hot property" anymore. That I could only be happy and safe in anonymity. That I couldn't take back my own narrative for any positive purpose. For instance, some readers will interpret the fact that I'm interviewing you as nothing more than another cry for attention. They won't see us as two thoughtful women talking about a cultural phenomenon with implications that touch the lives of both celebrities and everyday people who find themselves caught up in the court of public opinion and the criminal justice system.


BROADLY
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Offline hugo


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:48 pm   Post subject: Re: ANOTHER EGREGIOUS CASE OF A WHITE WOMAN'S FALSE ACCUSATIONS   

Fast Pete wrote:

Yes we posted this on TJMK several years ago. The point was to emphasize calunnia is more serious than diffamazione.

Quote:
Explanation of calunnia

The charge of calunnia (art. 368) has been commonly translated as “slander” in the English/US media. This translation is incorrect, however, as calunnia is a crime with no direct equivalent in the respective legal systems.

The equivalent of “criminal slander” is diffamazione, which is an attack on someone‟s reputation. Calunnia is the crime of making false criminal accusations against someone whom the accuser knows to be innocent, or to simulate/fabricate false evidence, independently of the credibility/admissibility of the accusation or evidence.

The charges of calunnia and diffamazione are subject to very different jurisprudence. Diffamazione is public and explicit, and is a more minor offence, usually resulting in a fine and only prosecuted if the victim files a complaint, while calunnia can be secret or known only to the authorities. It may consist only of the simulation of clues, and is automatically prosecuted by the judiciary.

The crimes of calunnia and diffamazione are located in different sections of the criminal code: while diffamazione is in the chapter entitled “crimes against honour” in the section of the Code protecting personal liberties, calunnia is discussed in the chapter entitled “crimes against the administration of justice”, in a section that protects public powers.


I do like though what Ergon found - Knox's crime would have been considered very serious in the US also.


Calunnia isn't slander against a person, it's an offence against the justice system. I don't know how (mostly English-based) American law handles it, but in England it's covered by perjury and perverting, attempting to pervert or conspiring to pervert the course of justice. It is a very serious crime (the courts do not like people committing offences against the courts) and a British woman has just got 10 years for repeated false accusations of rape. One of her victims served two years in jail (as part of a much longer sentence) before he was freed on appeal and then cleared. As a genuine wrongly convicted person, unlike Knox, he is not trying to parlay his conviction into media celebrity. Because innocent people just don't do that.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... emma-beale

If Knox does have the impertinence to bring her media circus to Italy, the courts really ought to come down on her for the money she still owes Patrick Lumumba. I wouldn't trust the Italian courts to do the right thing, but they ought to. A false accusation of murder not only casts suspicion on the wrong person, it diverts police attention from the actual murderer or murderers. It's not a small matter.

You were asking on TJMK about an internet claim that a judge who acquitted Knox then told French TV that she did it. Of course, Hellmann made the mildly astonishing remark to Italian media that 'they may well know something,' meaning Knox and Sollecito may have guilty knowledge, but this particular claim sounds like a wild misstatement of what Judge Marasca told the French interviewer. Marasca appears twice, in the last couple of minutes of the French documentary. The first time, he says that proof was not absent, but it was insufficient. (Unfortunately he relies on the old 'contradictory verdicts' argument, which is illegal because Hellmann was annulled. There were no contradictory verdicts, there was no 'objectively wavering process.' Marasca delivered a mafia verdict, acquitting a favoured defendant because he is the princeling of a mafia family.) The second time, he says that judicially, the proof was insufficient, but factually, nobody knows. He says that as a judge he is sure his verdict was correct, on account of the insufficient proof, but that as a citizen he just doesn't know what to think. This would be in line with what Dr Mignini calls 'the dubitative formula', Art. 530.2. Marasca does not give the defendants a clean bill of health.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Fast Pete wrote:
Hi Guermantes

Regarding all these interviews and speaking engagements:

What seems to have changed is that Knox has got herself the help of the hotshot showbiz agents All American Entertainment in Durham North Carolina.

Some press releases will go out to all those duped groups shortly.


Thanks for this news, Peter. So the Gogerty Marriott PR firm no longer represents Knox. We knew some time ago (2015) they were in the process of winding down their activities and joining another firm (Allison + Partners), see here: http://www.prweek.com/article/1332890/a ... tt-seattle

As Ergon once said, Knox may be eyeing Hollywood for a new movie; will she be teaming up with some Hollywood producers soon? From this vantage point, her choice of "the hotshot showbiz agents All American Entertainment" is understandable. Certainly, her voracious appetite for more publicity doesn't end with her inconsequential interviews to People mag. Her speaking engagement in West Hollywood may be seen in the same light (I guess.)

On a different note: has anybody heard anything about the release of the Supreme Court Motivations re: their refusal to award Sollecito compensation for "wrongful imprisonment"? They promised to issue a report within a month (by July 28th).

June 28, 2017 - No compensation for unjust imprisonment to Raffaele Sollecito. Thus has decided the Fourth Criminal Section of the Court of Cassation, rejecting the appeal with which the defenders of the young man asked to re-evaluate the compensation claim - equal to 516 thousand euros - already rejected by the Court of Appeal in Florence last February. [...] It will take about a month to know the reasons behind today's decision of the Supreme Court. - viewtopic.php?style=6&p=132073#p132073


Two months have passed since then, and there has been no trace of that report, at least it hasn't been mentioned in the news by Ansa. I've been checking the news agency's website regularly during the summer. I know that delays are nothing new or exceptional for the courts in Italy, but may we expect to hear from them soon?
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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

You are right, Guermantes. The Cassation Court 'motivations' on why they agreed Sollecito shouldn't get compensation is overdue. However, August almost doesn't count as a working month in Italy!
I wouldn't depend on ANSA to report on it (it is really rather unimportant in the greater scheme of things, and I don't anticipate the Cassation Court saying anything other than "we agree with the Florence judgement") - but for tidiness it would be nice to see it.
We'll just have to keep an eye open, (but we may need to look at the Cassation Court publication of decisions, rather than expect to see coverage in any section of the press).
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:15 am   Post subject: DEFINITION OF CALUNNIA   

From the online Italian Legal Dictionary Edizione Giuridiche Simone online dictionaries
Àctio calùmniæ [lett. “azione di calunnia”]
Azione concessa contro colui che avesse intentato un giudizio al solo scopo di nuocere agli altri: la fattispecie veniva ricompresa tra le obligatiònes quasi ex delicto [vedi]
[vedi crìmen calumniæ].
(Action granted against the one who had made a judgment solely for the purpose of harming the others: the case was covered by the quasi-delinquent obligations [see]
[see crìmen calumniæ].

Crimen calùmniæ

Delitto [vedi crimen] consistente nella formulazione di accuse false ed infondate nei confronti di soggetti innocenti.
Il (—) fu disciplinato da una lex Remnia de calumniatoribus [vedi]; nell’ambito della fattispecie furono fatte rientrare (per opera del senatusconsùltum Turpilliànum [vedi]) anche la prævaricàtio [vedi] e la tergiversàtio [vedi].
La pena prevista era quella dell’incapacità a sostenere l’accusa in futuri processi.
La legislazione imperiale applicò pene più severe, delle quali, peraltro, nulla è dato sapere.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:29 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Sallyoo wrote:
[...] I wouldn't depend on ANSA to report on it (it is really rather unimportant in the greater scheme of things, and I don't anticipate the Cassation Court saying anything other than "we agree with the Florence judgement") - but for tidiness it would be nice to see it.
We'll just have to keep an eye open, (but we may need to look at the Cassation Court publication of decisions, rather than expect to see coverage in any section of the press).


Thanks Sallyoo. Where should we look for documents on the Cassation Court website? Under Giurisprudenzia Penale, Quarta Sezione?

Here is the link to their recent rulings / publications (documenti) :

http://www.cortedicassazione.it/corte-d ... zione.page
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:59 pm   Post subject: TEN YEARS AGO   

Per Andrea Vogt
Sept 01, 2017


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Offline Sallyoo


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:19 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I'm following, at the moment, the story about the two young American women, ages variously reported between 19 and 21, studying in Florence. They claim to have been raped by two carabinieri, who gave them a lift home from a disco. The carabinieri were in one of the three cars sent to sort out a disturbance at the disco some time after 2.00 in the morning of Thursday 7 Sept.

The women claim that the carabinieri entered their building with them, one of them raped one woman in the hall (only two apartments, I think), and the other one raped the other woman in the lift. Neither of the women screamed - reports say that one of them said she was scared to scream because the carabiniere had a gun.

There is no doubt that the carabinieri did give the women a lift from the disco to their apartment. Reports have settled on one of them being in his 40s, and the other in his 30s (although earlier they were reported to be 20 and 21). CCTV appears to have the police car stationary for 20 minutes after it arrived at the women's apartment.

The women were both drunk, and one of them also tested positive for drugs. I was amazed to be told that the women both had an insurance policy which covered them for being raped, or suffering other violence, reportedly on the advice of the school which they attended. It is reported that a whole heap of DNA evidence has been collected from the women's clothing and the hall and lift of the flat, as yet unanalysed (or at least not leaked to the press).

The press coverage has been lurid, and conflicting. It has also been highly political - tied into a recent nasty attack carried out by some men of Moroccan origin, which the right wing parties have made much of. The two carabinieri were declared indagati (people under investigation) on Thursday, but as yet there is scant reporting on whether they have yet been questioned. They are under investigation for the crime of rape under the penal code, and also for contravening carabinieri rules (I think under a military code, the carabinieri being part of the armed forces). One disputed report claims that one of them has confessed to having had sex with one of the women, claiming that it was consensual. The American consul was at the questura very promptly.

So: it's looking as if it will develop into another 'clash of cultures' case. Coincidentally, the Questor of Florence is Alberto Intini - who was head of the Scientific Police in Rome during the case of Meredith, and the investigations are being carried out by the squadra mobile of Florence, headed presently by Giacinto Profazio, another familiar name.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:24 am   Post subject: MCCANN CASE FILED WITH ECtHR   

Daily Mail
Madeleine McCann's parents make final appeal to European court in battle to silence Portuguese ex-police chief's 'lies'
9 September 2017
Quote:
Madeleine McCann's parents are appealing to the European Court of Human Rights in attempt to silence the Portuguese ex-police chief who claimed their daughter is dead and they are responsible.

Note to the irresponsible, neglectful, litigious McCanns:
The Portuguese Supreme Court ruled that Goncalo Amaral (pictured) had a right of free expression under European law. You can't stop him from publishing his book (there's a follow up coming). Many similarities between the way he and prosecutor Giuliano Mignini were treated, BTW.

Likewise, Amanda Knox will still owe Patrick Lumumba 42,000+ Euros no matter which way the European Court rules.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Hello everybody,

just saw this news item on the ANSA news agency's website:

Supreme Court, from Sollecito [only] lies and silences
Reasons for no compensation but Bongiorno says 'don’t drop the curtain'

(ANSA) Rome, 14 Sep, 18:43 - In the early stages of the investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher, Raffaele Sollecito provided “false and contradictory statements”; his statements “found punctual denials in every respect”. And this had reinforced in the investigators "the prospect of his involvement" resulting in a decision to take him into custody as a precautionary measure. With this reasoning (or: for this reason), the Supreme Court rejected the claim for compensation for unjust detention / imprisonment, also denied on appeal [by the Court of Appeal of Florence - ed.], for the four years of imprisonment, suffered in the proceedings for the perpetration of the crime against the British student, in Perugia. At the end of which Sollecito was definitively acquitted.

"The curtain does not fall here," was the reply of lawyer Giulia Bongiorno, who announced appeal to the European Court. "It has been totally overlooked - she said - the annihilation of defensive guarantees and the circumstances in which those statements were made, which [RS's statements] were considered a decisive factor for the denial of compensation.”


ANSA

Not sure if this news is on account of imminent publication of the SC (Supreme Court) report, or just a re-iteration of old news. I could find no new documents about Sollecito's case on the SC website.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:45 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Okay, Il Fatto Quotidiano is reporting the same in a little bit more detail.

It seems that the SC report (Sentenza n. 42014) has been released but not published yet?

Raffaele Sollecito will not get compensation for unjust detention: "Involved in lies and dishonesty"

ETA: The Court of Cassation motivates [sets forth the reasoning behind] the judgment which, on 28 June, rejected the claim for compensation brought by Raffaele Sollecito. The claim had already been denied by the Court of Appeal in Florence last January.

[...] His defenders, lawyers Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori, emphasized in the appeal [against the judgment of the Court of Appeal of Florence - ed.] that such statements were unusable, because they were provided without defensive guarantee [the right to defense], while the elements that led to the young man’s detention/incarceration were the result of investigative "macroscopic errors / mistakes".

The Florence Court of Appeal dismissed the claim for compensation, holding that Sollecito, with his "seriously reckless" conduct, had compelled the investigators to impose the precautionary measure against him. If the young man had told the truth "right away, without contradiction," his procedural position would have been definitively different, "appearing probable that he would not even be investigated" or, in any case, "the cautionary needs would have been less serious." A conclusion shared by the Judges of the Fourth Criminal Division of the Supreme Court.

[...] Sollecito explained that he had been working on his computer all night, but his PC had been idle all night long; that he had answered a phone call from his father and had a chat with him, which hadn't taken place; and he has always denied his and Amanda Knox's presence in the murder house. The reticence, the lies and the silence, the Supreme Court explains, "can be evaluated by the judge(s) deciding on compensation in terms of willful or gross negligence", and the same - we read in judgment No. 42014 - applies "with regard to the alibi" identified [ascertained] "immediately [rapidly] as false".


IL FATTO QUOTIDIANO

Harsh words for Sollecito: dishonesty, false alibi, willful or gross negligence. How will he wriggle himself out of it this time? ;) By playing the blame game, with the same tired excuses?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:11 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Okay, Il Fatto Quotidiano is reporting the same in a little bit more detail.

It seems that the SC report (Sentenza n. 42014) has been released but not published yet?

Raffaele Sollecito will not get compensation for unjust detention: "Involved in lies and dishonesty"


The odd thing is that ECtHR can't act on a ruling that hasn't been published yet, or so I was led to believe, guermantes.

The McCann's lawyer filed an appeal after the Portuguese Supreme Court filed their motivations report.

Maybe Bongiorno's signalling she WILL file an appeal? Until they release the serial number we can't look it up on the HUDOC website.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:26 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Ergon wrote:
Maybe Bongiorno's signalling she WILL file an appeal? Until they release the serial number we can't look it up on the HUDOC website.


Yes, she is saying that she WILL file an appeal to the ECHR.

Quote:
His defenders, lawyers Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori, emphasized in the appeal that such statements were unusable, because they were provided without defensive guarantee...


In this sentence (quoted above), their appeal - to the Court of Cassation (i.e. the Supreme Court, against the judgment of the Court of Appeal of Florence) - is meant, not the one to the ECHR, which they haven't filed yet.

P.S. Okay, I've edited my translation in my previous post to clarify its meaning.
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Offline Ergon

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:02 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

guermantes wrote:
Ergon wrote:
Maybe Bongiorno's signalling she WILL file an appeal? Until they release the serial number we can't look it up on the HUDOC website.


Yes, she is saying that she WILL file an appeal to the ECHR.

Quote:
His defenders, lawyers Giulia Bongiorno and Luca Maori, emphasized in the appeal that such statements were unusable, because they were provided without defensive guarantee...


In this sentence (quoted above), their appeal - to the Court of Cassation (i.e. the Supreme Court, against the judgment of the Court of Appeal of Florence) - is meant, not the one to the ECHR, which they haven't filed yet.

P.S. Okay, I've edited my translation in my previous post to clarify its meaning.

My error, guermantes. Looks like the article specifies the file
Quote:
si legge nelle sentenza n. 42014
but hasn't been published on Cassazione's website yet. http://www.cortedicassazione.it/corte-d ... zione.page

It would be released to the media and legal representatives first.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:07 am   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Not up on this site yet either http://www.penale.it/
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Offline Fast Pete


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:03 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Re Cassation: Great work above.

So "I never want to see Amanda again" was coerced?!?!

Does it say in any of the reports who were the judges writing here?

They were Fifth Chambers, but perhaps not Marasca and Bruno...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:54 pm   Post subject: CASSAZIONE MOTIVATIONS REPORT SOLLECITO   

It's the 4th chambers, Peter. Here's the 9 page motivations report received yesterday La quarta sezione penale della Corte di Cassazione con la sentenza n. 42014 del 28 giugno 2017
Quote:
Penale Sent. Sez. 4 Num. 42014 Anno 2017
Presidente: IZZO FAUSTO
Relatore: MENICHETTI CARLA
Data Udienza: 28/06/2017

It reaffirms the Florence Appeals Court ruling; Sollecito was required to pay costs.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:12 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

I like the bit where the court repeats how "his statements were suffering from evident pathological uselessness" :)
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:18 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Quote:
Nevertheless, there remains the strong suspicion that he was,
really, present in the house of Via della Pergola, the night of the murder, at a time,
however, that it was not possible to determine.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:25 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Quote:
She should have immediately called the boyfriend .... who should have been the first person to whom
ask for help ", while another element of strong suspicion came from denial
of the alibi offered by Knox on the presence of both at the applicant's home in the evening
of the murder, as the two friends were seen together in the city until 24.00.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:34 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Quote:
His presence
on the site of the murder, and particularly in the room where the crime was committed, it is
linked to the only biological trace found on the bra clutch, in
order whose reliability can not, however, be certain, since that trace is
inspiring of second amplification, due to its smallness, as far as it is concerned
element without value. Nevertheless, there remains the strong suspicion that he was,
really, present in the house of Via della Pergola, the night of the murder, at a time,
however, that it was not possible to determine. On the other hand, certain Knox presence is in
that house, it seems poorly credible that he would not be with her "(so on page 49,
referred to in the contested order) ..... and it is strange that Knox "did not immediately call her boyfriend" etc.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:43 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

Quote:
In addition to the already mentioned reticent, lying and contradictory statements and
silence by Sollecito- on which the denial of compensation is based - the judges of the
repair have still negatively assessed the conduct by the applicant
the morning of Kercher's corpse finding, constituting a further falsehood not
denied in the absolute ruling, with particular reference to the fact that, by contrast
to what Sollecito claimed, he called the Carabinieri at least ten minutes later
the arrival at the crime scene by the postal police, so as to get further
element causally causing a depreciation for reflexive investigators
on a precautionary level, as statements that can be logically interpreted
as a desperate attempt to credit the false claim of denouncing
promptly, as logic required, and not obviously just because he was induced
from the casual arrival of the Post Police, the alarming situation unveiled at arrival
of Pergola.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:21 pm   Post subject: MCCANN, ER, KNOX SUES TO AVOID PAYING OUT?   

Nothing happening so far, ahem.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:33 pm   Post subject: Re: XXIX. MAIN DISCUSSION, AUG 1 -   

So if the motivations report was released only yesterday then Bongiorno has yet to file at ECtHR as I thought.
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